Speeds dropping, can I do anything?

[henleyb]

Hi everyone, hoping someone might be able to help us with our IDNet broadband.
we've been happily running my IDNet account now for a while but it's getting slower and slower. Granted we live a little remote so speeds are probably expected to be a bit slow.. But hopefully there's something I can do as it's starting to affect our work quite a bit.

We get:

Connection Speed
Down: 960 kbps
Up: 768 kbps

Line Attenuation
Down: 61 db
Up: 15.5 db

Noise Margin
down: 15 db
up:     6 db

Is there anything I can try to boost the speed? Our exchange is Axminster and our postcode is EX13 5SL, any ideas if BT are going to upgrade the exchange of cabling. Is there anyway I can check on these things?

[Rik]

Hi H and welcome to the forum.

BT are unlikely to upgrade your cable, unless a massive faults develops. Your speed is low because your noise margin is high (15db). This suggests to me that your line has been unstable (lots of disconnections). Have you noticed this happening. (Your u/s margin is unusually low, btw.)

The usual cause of such issues is noise pickup. How many phone sockets do you have, what's connected to them, are you using any loose extension leads, if so, are they flat or round? Do you have the newer NTE5 master socket - the type where the bottom part of the faceplate can be removed?

[Rik]

Update:

IDNet have tested your line and there's a BT fault showing. Once this has been cleared, they will let you know the outcome.

[henleyb]

Thanks for that!

It has always been slow, I think the fastest we have ever got to is ~1.4mbps when we first joined but this has steadily decreased over the last few months.

The building has just been rennovated so all new sockets on the walls. I joined up two slave sockets to the master (wasn't sure if two was ok but went ahead and things *seem* ok). One of the slave sockets has the router plugged in with new filters etc. Both extension cables are the flat type.

Is there any indication of the problem on the line and when it's likely to be resolved? I know what BT are like so understand if there's no more info.

[Rik]

I have no more information, but if you give IDNet a ring, they can probably tell you more (0800 0267237).

Have you connected the ring wire (terminal three) on your sockets? If so, try removing it from all sockets, the ring wire is not needed and just serves to put a lot of noise on the line. The other question is have you used a pair for the connections, eg blue/white and white/blue?

[henleyb]

I have no more information, but if you give IDNet a ring, they can probably tell you more (0800 0267237).

Have you connected the ring wire (terminal three) on your sockets? If so, try removing it from all sockets, the ring wire is not needed and just serves to put a lot of noise on the line. The other question is have you used a pair for the connections, eg blue/white and white/blue?

Which wire is the ring wire? I connected all four of the wires in to the socket for both extensions, so there's 8 individual internal wires connected in total going to the two extension sockets (four internal wires per extension).

In fact, have a picture!

[Sebby]

What you could try now we can see you have a NTE5 master socket is plugging the router into the test socket (that socket behind the faceplate) and re-posting your stats. This is where the ADSL comes into the property so it's a test to see if the extension wiring is picking up noise.

But, as you have a line fault, it might not be worth messing around too much at this stage.

[henleyb]

What you could try now we can see you have a NTE5 master socket is plugging the router into the test socket (that socket behind the faceplate) and re-posting your stats. This is where the ADSL comes into the property so it's a test to see if the extension wiring is picking up noise.

But, as you have a line fault, it might not be worth messing around too much at this stage.

Ok, fair enough. I'll wait on the line fault to resolve and then see what smoe testing shows up. Thanks for all the great help!

[Sebby]

For the future, it will certainly be good to see if your setup can be improved upon.

[Rik]

In fact, have a picture!

I can't see the numbering on the terminals, but you only want wires connected to terminals 2 & 5 at each socket.

[g7pkf]

Also looks like flat cable has been used.

For future info this is about the worse cable to use with adsl connections.

[Rik]

Good point, Dean.

[henleyb]

What type of cable is good to use? Will the flat cable have a noticable effect? Both aren't too long, literally going in to two seperate rooms next to the master socket. They're straight extension sockets which I cut the ends off and attached to the master socket like in the pics.

[Rik]

Flat cables tend not to twist the pairs, which increases the noise pickup, and you do appear to be suffering from a noise issue. Add in the ring wire and it's a recipe for poor ADSL. Get some CW1308 from Maplin or B&Q:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=CW1308&source=15&SD=Y

[henleyb]

Ok, also once I've made a change (I've just removed those wires from the master socket) and am about to try plugging the router straight in. How long will it take to show any changes on the line, is it instant or will I need to leave it plugged in for a few hours to stabalize.. or something?

[Rik]

It will be instant if it's local noise pickup, I'd expect to see you sync speed increase and/or your noise margin drop. A couple of caveats, though, if BT have a fault, it might just prevent the difference from showing and the later in the day you sync, the lower the speed will be as noise increases after dark.

[henleyb]

Ok, I've gone to the master socket and plugged the router straight in (with a filter) and it's coming up as 1312kbps which is nice! I won't be able to change the extension cables as they're under the carpets. Might try removing one of the extensions and see if that helps as we can probably get by without it.

Noise and all the other values have stayed the same, only connection speed has increased.

[Rik]

You've just confirmed your wiring is causing some of the pain. Remove the wires from everything except terminals 2 & 5 at whatever sockets you leave connected, and make sure that the wires on 2 & 5 are paired, eg blue/white & white blue.

[Rik]

It's perhaps worth mentioning that you do not want to ask IDNet to get a BT engineer out to you over this issue. He/she will plug in to the test socket, decide there's no fault, and you'll have a bill for around £170.

[Dangerjunkie]

Hi,

If your extension cables are under carpet and could have been trodden on or trapped under furniture then they could well be damaged. This might explain the progressively worsening performance.

If you rewire your extensions round the walls with CAT5 network cable and replace the front of your NTE5 socket with one of these ( http://www.adslnation.com/products/xte2005.php ) you will get the best match to your ADSL line you can get and hopefully see an improvement. Once you have one of those you won't need to put microfilters on anything. If you have a Sky or Sky+ box it seems to be advisable to put one of these on it ( http://www.adslnation.com/products/xf-1e.php ) in addition to replacing the front of the NTE5. The products are both top-notch filters and will hopefully perform better than any cheap/aged filters you may have.

If I need to take a cable through a doorway I tack it up the side of the frame and round the corner onto the top then drill it through there. I then run it over to whichever edge of the other side of the door I want to come down on and go back down to skirting board level.

Good luck, let us know how you get on

Cheers,
Paul.

[Rik]

The alarm engineers who cabled my house lifted the mouldings around the doors, and ran their cables in the space, then replaced the mouldings. It worked a treat.

[Sebby]

Ok, I've gone to the master socket and plugged the router straight in (with a filter) and it's coming up as 1312kbps which is nice! I won't be able to change the extension cables as they're under the carpets. Might try removing one of the extensions and see if that helps as we can probably get by without it.

Noise and all the other values have stayed the same, only connection speed has increased.

As well as confirming that your extension wiring is responsible for some of the loss, there's also a lot more room for improvement, given that your target SNRM is set so high. Perhaps once the fault is cleared, IDNet will be able to get BT to reset this for you. Hopefully you'll get another few Mb.

[henleyb]

I'll definetly keep that in mind, have ordered up a few "pro" filters and that replacement master socket so will give those a go. If I can hit 2mbit then I would be very happy indeed!

Thanks again, will keep you posted.

[Lance]

Welcome to the forum, Henley.

With your wiring sorted, and noise margin corrected, I can see no reason why you wouldn't hit 2mb

[g7pkf]

I'll definetly keep that in mind, have ordered up a few "pro" filters
Thanks again, will keep you posted.

can you be a bit more specific on what pro-filters you have ordered?

(just being inquisitive)

[henleyb]

can you be a bit more specific on what pro-filters you have ordered?

(just being inquisitive)

Sure, no problem

1 x NTE-2005 Master face plate (NTE-2005) = £10.20
2 x Professional Quality ADSL Microfilter (XF-1e) = £17.98

Also, ran the BT speed checker and it gave me this:

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    IP profile for your line is - 500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 768 kbps(UP-STREAM)  1600 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 449 kbps

If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.

If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.

Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.

[Sebby]

Where did you get the NTE-2005? I don't think ADSL Nation have made them for a long time. They've been replaced by the XTE-2005. That said, it should achieve the same thing. One thing though: you won't need the microfilters as the NTE-2005 pre-filters the extensions.

The speed test results are as expected. Your profile is wrong, but then that's because your sync has only improved today, so it'll take about 5 days to catch up.

[henleyb]

I got the NTE from ADSL Nation, it was a hotlink someone recommended. I hope there's marginal difference between the one I bought and the new one. 

That's annoying it will take so long to reset the profile, can I ring BT and ask them to do it or is it just a case of waiting?

[Sebby]

Are you sure it isn't the XTE-2005? I'd imagine it is. Still, either way, you don't need the filters. And are you aware that you will only be able to connect the router at the master socket? (There are ways around it, but in some ways it negates the purpose of having a filtered faceplate.)

BT won't do anything. You can ask IDNet, but they're bound by BT's rules, and it's unlikely they'll be able to get it done in this case. If I were you, I'd just give it a few days - it can be less than 5.

[henleyb]

I e-mailed the online shop for adslnation and just got back:

Yes, you ordered an NTE-2005

So looks like I have although I can't find the NTE-2005 on their website so no idea how I managed that.

I'll stick it out with the profiling, I'll give IDNet a ring tomorrow to find out about the line fault. Cheers!

[henleyb]

Update.

Still unable to reach speeds greater than 1.4mbit

With the NXT-2005 my adsl is now

Connection Speed
down - 1344 kbps
up - 704 kbps

Line Attenuation
down - 63.5 db
up - 31.5 db

Noise Margin
down - 15.8 db
up - 7.0 db

This is still with the router plugged in at the master socket. Is anything up with my figures? Anything else I can try? 

[Rik]

Probably not a lot. A 2700 router might improve the sync speed slightly, but it won't be a massive amount. The modem is reporting the highest figure that it can for d/s attenuation, the reality might be higher still. If you were on fixed speed ADSL, you'd get 512Kbps at most, so I suspect your line is doing about as well as it can. It would be worth having a walk around with a MW radio tuned 'off station' so it's only giving white noise. If you find it getting noisier anywhere near the phone line, it would suggest local noise pickup, but my suspicion is that your problems are down to the laws of physics.

[henleyb]

Bah, so it's basically a case of just lumping it. 

Thanks for the help.

[Rik]

You can have a word with IDNet and see if there's anything they can suggest but, tbh, I think you have a long line running at its limits. Sorry.

[Lance]

The only thing you can hope for is a solid 15 days without losing sync with the exchange. This should then cause on the next reboot/resync your noise margin to drop by 3db to around 12db, giving approx 200-400kbpsextra on your sync. It may be however, that because of your high attenuation you need the extra noise margin to ensure a stable line.

[henleyb]

The only thing you can hope for is a solid 15 days without losing sync with the exchange. This should then cause on the next reboot/resync your noise margin to drop by 3db to around 12db, giving approx 200-400kbpsextra on your sync. It may be however, that because of your high attenuation you need the extra noise margin to ensure a stable line.

Really? That sounds like I might have half a chance at some decent speeds! I've been playing around with my connection ever since we moved in, probably me trying to get faster speeds and all the disconnecting may have caused my problems ultimately. Just have to try and resist playing! My stats are now:

Connection Speed
down - 1632 kbps
up - 736 kbps

Line Attenuation
down - 62 db
up - 15.5 db

Noise Margin
down - 8 db
up - 7 db

[Rik]

If you can get target margin back down to 6db, you will potentially double your speed. However, once a higher target margin has been set by the line management software, it's often difficult to get it reduced again.

[henleyb]

What ways can I help reduce it, I take it Noise Margin should be as low as possible?

My Netgear router plug is right next to the socket, could this cause any interference (clutching at straws maybe )?

Would this help me in any way?

http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/dg834GT_targetsnr.htm

[Rik]

In your case, noise margin seems to have been raised from the normal target of 6db to 15db. My instinct is, however, that it's because of general noise pickup on the line, note that your u/s margin is only at 7db, that would normally be a lot higher.

It is possible that the router PSU could be generating noise, so it's worth moving that to find out (our use the MW radio trick to test). I don't think another Netgear would help. If any router would, it's likely to be a 2-Wire 2700, but overall my hunch is that your line is poor, and that the only cure would be to move - unless BT decide to re-cable.

[henleyb]

Ok, moved the router plug and noise margin for downstream has jumped to 15db, is that good or bad?

Also, how did you know our line had a fault? Is this something I can check myself to see if it's cleared yet?

Thanks again!

[Sebby]

You want the noise margin itself to be high, though it's the target figure that BT set that we're interested in. You sync at a rate to achieve 15dB. If the target was set at the default of 6dB you'd sync much higher. Your best bet is to leave all alone as theoretically the exchange should adjust the target SNRM if it sees things are stable.

[Rik]

Ok, moved the router plug and noise margin for downstream has jumped to 15db, is that good or bad?

That's good, and suggests you have a faulty PSU on the router. Has the d/s sync speed changed?

Also, how did you know our line had a fault? Is this something I can check myself to see if it's cleared yet?

I asked IDNet to test it. Forum staff can see IP addresses. As IDNet use static addresses, it enables us to get the line tested without knowing any personal information about you.

[henleyb]

ah right, thanks for that - is the fault still present?

Connection speed has gone down from ~1600 (or near) to 1408.

[Rik]

That tends to rule out the PSU then. Is it raining where you are?

I'll check with IDNet again on Monday, give me a nudge if I don't get back to you.

[Sebby]

That'll just be to do with noise fluctuations depending on the time of day.

Rik will be able to advise more about the fault, I'd imagine.

[henleyb]

That tends to rule out the PSU then. Is it raining where you are?

I'll check with IDNet again on Monday, give me a nudge if I don't get back to you.

It's not raining here, there weather here is just normal. No winds, rain or even sun really - pretty depressing but not as depressing as my broadband.  

[Rik]

Rain might have indicated a leaking joint.

Do you have anyone you could borrow an alternative router from, for elimination purposes?

[Sebby]

We've all been there. You'll get there, I'm sure.

[henleyb]

I don't have another router to test with, sorry to ask but did you have a chance to ask IDNet about my line?   

My broadband seems more responsive but is still showing as being slow:

Connection Speed
down - 1600 kbps
up - 768 kbps

Line Attenuation
down - 62 db
up - 15.5 db

Noise Margin
down - 15 db
up - 6 db

Line Attenuation fluctuates between 61 and 62.

[Rik]

Yeah, sorry, forgot to post back. 

Your MSR is 1728, iow that's the fastest speed you connected at during the 10-day training. That puts your FTR at 1200kbps. Your current sync speed is well above that so, as far as BT is concerned, there is no fault on the line.

TBH, I doubt you will do better without BT re-cabling, and unless a major fault develops, they won't do that.

[henleyb]

Righto! I'll let this lie once and for all now I promise!!!

Thanks for everyones great help as said before it's really appreciated.  8)

[Rik]

NP. Sorry we can't BT to run you a nice length of fibre.

[Steve]

How does one find ones own FTR? I am aware its 70% of MSR, Slightly confused by the  kitz definition which states it is defined "as the lowest achieved rate over the 10 day training period rounded down to nearest 0.5mb" which seems to contradict Rik's earlier comment

Your MSR is 1728, iow that's the fastest speed you connected at during the 10-day training. That puts your FTR at 1200kbps.

thanks

[Rik]

I've always understood it to be 70% of MSR, Steve, no rounding. In this case, rounding down would be ultra cruel! If you don't know, IDNet will tell you what yours is set to.

[Steve]

Thanks, it was more the difference in definition as according to the kitz definition if I read it correctly, a stable period of a relatively low sync for ones line potential during the training period will set the MSR artificially low and thus any subsequent improvements one has made to achieve a higher sync are potentially negated once a fault appears as the FTR will be set more than 70% below your current sync rate.

[Rik]

I agree with you, Steve. If you have a noise problem or whatever which keeps your sync speed down for the 10 days, then MSR/FTR will be set low, which is OK until you get a fault...