A few idiot questions - my apologies

[copperhead]

Hi

My apologies if these are very stupid questions / misuse of jargon:

I transfered to adsl2 end of sept and its been a complete disaster download speed of 300 kbps and less vrs upload of 1mb
Connection bouncing around like a pin pong ball
I'm in the process of changing back to what I was on earlier.

I'm told 16db on my line is the reason why - is it possible for me to measure the noise level myself to see if I can reduce it?
I've replaced the cabling, filters, removed old phone and want to see if there other changes I can make

Also Will it take time when the downgrade is complete for my download speed to improve?

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

You can only check what your router is reporting as noise margin, what make and model are you using.

ADSL2+ uses higher frequencies and, on longer lines, can produce the symptoms you describe. A different brand of router might help, so knowing your downstream line attenuation, also from the router, would help.

What cabling did you change?

The good news is that you retain the bandwidth allowance after you remodulate. Speed recovery depends on line stability.

[Steve]

 

[Ray]

 

[copperhead]

Hi Rik,

Thanks for prompt reply - its wired Netgear DG834 from IdNet.
I reduced the noise I could hear and I'm partially deaf when:

• I removed the phone extension wire adn replaced with Ethernet cat5
• Changed the filters
• Went from Master test socket

So god knows how noisey it was before as it was 16 as of yesterday

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

It was 26.5 this morning, as you'd been banded - a quirk of ADSL2+ with noisy lines. You were remodulated at 2, and your line has been stable since. I've just had a word with James and he's reset your noise margin back to 6. This should fix your speed, but you must expect some instability over the next few days as the line finds its level again.

Yell if it doesn't help.

[copperhead]

Hi Rik,

What does banded mean? - Dunce in the corner kinda thing?
I'd quite like to try again for ADSL2+ but obviously at a later date.

Is there anything I can do to help this?
Download speeds I'm fine with anything above 2mb but a faster upload would be very handy

Cheers

[Rik]

If an ADSL2+ line is very unstable, Paul, BT puts an upper and lower limit of performance on it, which is known as banding. The giveaway, usually, is a very high noise margin. It's a bit like going back to fixed rate ADSL. From what's happened and what you say, I'm guessing you have high downstream attenuation (same page as the noise margin in the Netgear). If it's much above 54db and your line is prone to RF interference, then ADSL2+ may never be viable, but a different router could help. I get 3.5M from a 63db line using a 2-Wire 2700, for example. My Netgear was way lower than that.

[copperhead]

Hi Rik,

Thanks for your help my broadband at about 4mb now - upload about 300kb
I've had to run it off an extension socket rather than a master - would I get a better upload off the master?

Not allowed to drill a hole in the celling down stairs under my office says the boss

If I bought a wireless router would that help with the upload speed in the future?

Thanks again
Paul

[Rik]

Hi Paul

The master can be better, depending on the quality of the extension wiring. It's certainly worth a try.

As to wireless, it's inherently slower than ethernet, but if your line isn't fast, you really shouldn't notice it unless you're a games player, where the increased latency will be an issue.

[copperhead]

I'm not a games player - I have to upload large photo files and the hope with ADSL2+ was that it would boost the upload speed.
Now I'm back where I started just with an Ethernet instead of a rubbish phone line extension cable from the extension wall socket.

Just looking for ways to boost the upload

The extension wiring was done by BT a couple of years ago.

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

Some people have kept their ADSL2+ u/l speed when remodulated, but there's no pattern to it. Without prying, why do you need to upload the files, is it for public viewing, or to get them somewhere fast?

[copperhead]

I restore old photos for people normally Victorian to ww2 era together with more modern photo editing e.g. wedding photos.

I work as a sub contractor for other firms and have to upload the files to them using services such as sendthisfile and others.
The files can be flattened tiffs or multi-layered psds.

If I'm editing a whole wedding I'll ftp them and the client can download when it suits

Basically it comes down to time as its quite common for me to do various versions and becomes a real drag

I also download the original images but that is obviously easy compared to upload.
I occasionally upload Joomla websites as well when I've built them.

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

I wonder whether it would be worth your while looking at a bonded service, Paul, which will give you a better speed? (I love re-touching myself, it's a very satisfying job, a bit like hand-kerning type.)

[copperhead]

What's a bonded service?

What I enjoy most is repainted b&ws properly - must admit still a bit hit and miss but getting better only problem is the time

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

It's two lines 'joined' via a special router so that they are effectively seen as one line with the sum of the speeds, Paul.

My problem with B&W is I get an urge to put a sepia tint in at the end, and have to be restrained.

[copperhead]

I have a similar problem with Duo/Tri/Quad toning

I'm in the dog house at the moment with the cables and phones all over the place.

Is joining hard to do? as my practical knowledge is virtually nil!

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

It's set up by the ISP. It means a second phone line and, to be honest, I'm not sure whether IDNet offer the service, but it would be one of the few ways right now for you to increase upload speeds. (Have you checked if you're getting fibre any time soon?)

[pctech]

Very few ISPs offer bonded ADSL because it can double their need for incoming bandwidth from BT

BT Business do of course but I'm not sure who else do.

[Rik]

Thanks, Mitch.

[copperhead]

Fibre wise it says Your exchange is not yet scheduled to be upgraded to Fibre Broadband

but it says March 2011 for Chester which is where I live??

[Glenn]

Paul, all the Chester exchanges have dates set for FTTC in 2011

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WNCSC
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WNCSN
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/WNCSS

[copperhead]

If I've had so many problems with ADSL2+ will fibre offer a better chance of faster uploads do you reckon?

Cheers
Paul

[Glenn]

Take a look through here for our members thoughts http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?board=39.0

[copperhead]

With exchanges does the phone lines cross under rivers e.g. The Dee?

Also my broadband has been 1 mb today is this normal to fluctuate so much as yesterday it was over 3mb and day before over 4 mb?
Line seems to be very noisey again and have asked for quiet line test from BT - is this the right thing to do?

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

You can do the quiet line test yourself, Paul. Dial 17070 and select option 2.

Speeds do vary, it's not the norm, but quite a few people see it. Could be line noise causing resyncs or exchange congestion. We'd need your router's stats to tell.

I'd imagine most cables go under, but only BT would know for sure, and they won't tell you.

[copperhead]

Does the line test consist of me listening? - if so there is is slight snag! - I'm partially deaf!
I've spoken to BT and they are talking about an internal fault but they couldn't or wouldn't elaborate.

They seem desperate to send me a new phone but to be honest don't see why

Are these the stats attached ? - I've never actually gone into my router before!!

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

Does the line test consist of me listening? - if so there is is slight snag! - I'm partially deaf!

It does, Paul. Could anyone else do it for you?

I've spoken to BT and they are talking about an internal fault but they couldn't or wouldn't elaborate.

Be careful, those can be expensive.

They seem desperate to send me a new phone but to be honest don't see why

Odd. They don't rent phones anymore, so that's a very unusual approach.

Are these the stats attached ? - I've never actually gone into my router before!!

They are, and there's something wrong with that line - let me go and talk to support.

[copperhead]

Cheers
Rik

We seem to have a BT rented phone with unknown number of months remaining on the rental!
Without me asking for it - a new phone is in the post!

Hopefully IDNET can help as BT are very hard work to even understand never mind sort the problem

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

You must have had that phone a while, Paul. I'm just queuing for support.

[copperhead]

Found some paperwork from BT about the hire agreement for the phone

The contract date is 28 Jan 2010 and lasts for a minimum of 18 months
So the phone is max 9 months old.

I didn't sign the contract myself and didn't realise how relatively recent the phone is.

Thanks again
Paul

[Rik]

They must have had some sort of deal on. Can you try unplugging the phone and re-booting the router please, I'd like to see the stats then.

[copperhead]

The set up is of as last conversation with BT so the router is running off extension box? is this okay?

New stats attached

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

I think you need to get the voice fault sorted, Paul. Even without the phone, your sync speed is way too low for your attenuation and your noise margin is way above the BT normal maximum of 15db. My suspicion, and support agree, is that you have a line fault so, if the new phone doesn't make things any better, chase BT.

IDNet can raise a fault for you, but at this point, to do so would probably incur the £160 fee.

[copperhead]

Are BT normally this rubbish? - when I first had a problem IDNET suggested ringing them on the off chance there was a fault.
I did and BT said no fault was present on the line - every time I speak to support I feel I'm wasting my time + we don't seem to understand each other
Is BT support based overseas? India?

Phone's due to arrive tomorrow - when it makes no difference do I ring straight away or wait for a while?

On the stats which bit is the sync speed?

Thanks again for your patience
Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

BT's support is, indeed, overseas and, most of us feel, rubbish. It's why we're with IDNet. You can ask, though, to be put through to someone in the UK, which might get things moving for you.

If the new phone makes no difference, ring straight away, I suspect it's stalling tactic.

The sync speed is the one labelled connection speed.

[copperhead]

my reason for sticking with bt for the phone service was that it offered support and the phones were BT phones but what's the point if it their service is this *&**!"

Stalling tactic!! - BT are the only game in town for infrastructure I thought - are they that stupid that they think I will go away?
Is this a common practice for BT?

I'm quite a reasonable kinda guy - but I will not be a happy bunny if I find out that the fault was BT to start with!!

Cheers and thanks
Paul

[Rik]

IDNet's phone service is often cheaper, Paul, and the support is from people you already know. The one voice fault I've had saw a BT engineer here and the problem (noisy line) fixed in under 2 hours. So, I suppose I'm bound to answer there's no real point in sticking with BT.

Yes, BT will do anything in the hope that you will go away. I do not believe the phone will fix anything as your connection was slightly worse with it disconnected. Hence, I feel they are stalling but have a good idea that they need to get an engineer to look at the line. Unfortunately, customers are not a priority for BT, cutting costs is.

[copperhead]

Righto - look forward to my phone arriving and seeing what's what

When I first rang BT I asked them about a loose wire in the master socket as they have proved so useless
I've attached a photo of the wire here - probably nothing but just in case

Thanks
Paul

[Rik]

That looks very odd to me, Paul. Solid green and brown would imply that it's the exchange pair, which should be connected on the rear of the faceplate. I think you said you have an extension? Was it installed by BT? What number terminal is the green wire connected to?

[copperhead]

New info I didn't know

The extension is split outside of the house at a round junction box (see attachment).
The black wire then follows a window round and up through an exterior wall to the extension socket.

All this work was done and recommended by BT - the brown seems attached at the back but not the plastic bit that unscrews.
The green is attached to number 3 terminal

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

Terminal 3 is the ring wire terminal, Paul, you don't need that, so gently pull it out and coil it up. If that work was done by BT, it's not to their own specifications, the extension should be wired from that faceplate, so going to the test socket is a waste of time for you.

[copperhead]

Talked to my Mum who agrees with me that it was definitely BT who put it in the extension - we're not sure how long ago thinking about 15 years ago.

Will the phone still work ok without any wire connecting to the plastic front? - BT via India gave me a brief lecture about those cables belonging to them not us when I spoke to them the first time.

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

Anything connected to the faceplate of the NTE5 belongs to you. The demarcation point is the test socket, Paul. Unfortunately, your wiring is adequate for voice, but not ideal for ADSL. I'd suspect corrosion in that junction box at this point.

The phone will still work, it's hard wired through the faceplate.

[pctech]

I've moved from Phone Coop to IDNet for my phone lines Paul and its worth doing, much cheaper.

[Rik]

Same here, Mitch, but in my case from BT. Plus, I always know who I'm talking to.

[copperhead]

BT have a lot to answer for if they've been telling porkies (just about giving them the benefit of the doubt for another day) - I'm getting grief from every direction
Done virtually no work all day so I'm heading for a late night to beat a deadline for tomorrow.

I'll get my broadband sorted and see where I'm at time wise to move the phones.

Thanks all for your help so far

Cheers
Paul

[pctech]

mailed in with a couple of questions when things were being set up and had responses from James who was very helpful.

I'm sure they are great to deal with by phone too.

[Rik]

We're here if we can help, Paul.

[copperhead]

Spoke to BT - spent about 40 mins on hold.

They couldn't manage to put me through the English desk - didn't have a clue what I was going on about.
After being pinged around their phone system ended up speaking to the broadband technical support - who after me repeating the previous conversations I'd had volunteered to do a line test.
Bearing in mind this being the third line test I've had done - my hopes weren't high.

However surprise, surprise a line fault was found!!!!!!!!! - over eight days since I first made a request for a line test.
Either on the line or the exchange apparently

At this point the Indian bloke's language skills failed and I couldn't understand what he was saying despite me asking him to repeat 4 times - only bit I got was 3 working days where at that point I started laughing!
Any ideas how BT will procede from here?

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

They should get an engineer out to the exchange and, if necessary, your house.

[Simon]

Slowly?

[Rik]

Within 3 working days.

[copperhead]

Will BT contact me if they solve the problem?
I don't have much confidence in them!!!

Is it possible for them to do a line test and not see the problem?

Thanks
Paul

[Rik]

I doubt they will contact you, Paul, unless an engineer comes out to your home - but we can live in hope.

It's always possible, with intermittent faults, not to see any problems at the time of the test, unfortunately.

[copperhead]

Thanks Rik - you've probably prolonged my lifespan a bit as I was beginning to get hot under the collar with BT and their line tests

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

We all do, Paul.

[Gary]

I would move to IDnet and then get them to sort your phone issue out, I was with BT for years and moving to IDNet was the best thing I could have done, and its ended up cheaper, and no more calls to India with scripts and that language barrier when it goes off script

[Rik]

Paul is in a contract, unfortunately, Gary.

[pctech]

That's a shame.

[copperhead]

New update on BT are Rubbish Thread 

BT have now gone back on there is a fault on the line and/or exchange.
Apparently there is no fault and its an internal fault?? - again contradicted that it was definitely not an internal fault from yesterday.

They had no record of the conversation I had yesterday - I stupidly didn't take his name

Was left with no option - get an engineer in and risk paying £127 if "no" fault found.
Engineer booking for Sat between 12pm and 6pm

My phone line set up is non-standard with the extension coming from the box outside the door and not from the master socket internally.
After arguing with BT that they put it in and this made it their problem - they seem to have relented.

So **//**"" off - complete load of /*/*!"£

See what changes between now and Sat   
Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

Good luck, Paul. I'm off on holiday tomorrow, but will check back to see how things are going as soon as I return.

[copperhead]

I'm not surprised you need a holiday if you have to solve problems caused by BT!
What  a shower

Have a good one - its getting a bit dark and dingy in this country.

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

I don't have to try and solve them, Paul, I just know the people who do.

Yes, it is getting a bit dark, isn't it. We're two weeks later going than originally booked.

[copperhead]

Regarding their phone contract - its only about £4 per quarter for the phone so that's not an issue.
Got a free phone that must be worth £16  - thinking they can shove their phone rental somewhere

Seriously considering a holiday for myself - are you going anywhere sunny?

Cheers
Paul

[Rik]

Suffolk, so the gods will decide.

[copperhead]

BT engineer visited - not on scheduled time and he failed to ring before hand - call centre hadn't passed on details and their booking procedure was wrong!

Engineer changed crimps due to damp and re-wired the master socket as it was wired wrongly and thus no charge

I've attached my router stats they are better (I think)
Just wait and see what happens to my speed

Cheers
Paul

[Steve]

It's looking better, hopefully if it remains stable with no resyncs it might get even better. I guess your on adslmax so it could take a couple of weeks.

[Baz]

BT engineer visited - not on scheduled time and he failed to ring before hand - call centre hadn't passed on details and their booking procedure was wrong!

Engineer changed crimps due to damp and re-wired the master socket as it was wired wrongly and thus no charge

Cheers
Paul

all sounds like BT doesnt it........what hope do we have eh?      master socket wired wrong 

hope it settles down for you now Paul

[copperhead]

Interesting what comments the engineer had to say about the call centre and the "indians" - polite version "nightmare - load of rubbish - we have to bloody speak to them all the time!"

My dad who is still the bill payer received a new contract agreement this morning in the "morning" post for the new replacement phone 
As he didn't understand what they were saying has agreed to extend the phone rental for another 18 months!!!!!!!!!!
Of course this also appears to lock us in for using other BT phone services.

Having read the paperwork it appears that we could now have two rental agreements running together at total £8 a quarter - I think.
This is because we haven't returned the old phone - we only received the new phone this Tuesday or Wed.
There was no way of returning the old "broken" phone - no bag or return address.

Not impressed at all - engineer bloke was sound and it was nice to speak to somebody who actually spoke english.

Fingers crossed no more problems
BT have they always been this useless?

Cheers
Paul

[pctech]

Ring them and ask for a return address, don't swallow it.

[copperhead]

They even want to charge postage for a contract phone - I don't think so

When I come back from the footie I'm going straight on the phone.

[Lance]

I would ask support to get the noise margin reset, now a fault has been cleared.

[copperhead]

Spoke To BT last night - the Indian who spoke to my dad failed to cancel one of the hire agreeements.

Actually spoke to somebody english - result both phone contracts charges waived and keep the phones.
Apology for their poor level of service and we've moved our phone to a cheaper package for the remainder of the contract.

We were on a package which is no longer sold and very expensive compared to the packages they sell now - result phone bill will go down by 2/3
Kicking myself for not checking the phone bill properly as I don't pay it directly and don't normally see it.

Will ring support tomorrow to see what they can do.

Cheers
Paul