Hi All
I need some advice as I am rather at the end of my tether with slow unresponsive ADSL. I was with Eclipse on 512k when we first were enabled here ( Stonehouse Glos ) it worked fine and gave actual downloads at this speed. Upgraded to 2meg when available synced at 2272kbps and downloaded at 1800plus.
Went over to 8meg Max synced at 6meg plus after training but got downloads at 500kbps downwards on speedtests. Persued this with Eclipse and BT both implied it was the other. Eclipse seemed to have got a bad name over the years so I transfered to Idnet result is occasionally I get speedtest results of 3meg and once 4.4meg but the usual is below 1meg the average seems to be 650kbps . This has gone on for 8months with IDnet and nearly two years with Eclipse.
I only have a phone master socket now with a ADSLnation faceplate filter. No slave sockets. Results with the mastersocket engineering socket is the same. Have changed everything more than once. Tried three wired router modems on ethernet and a USB modem , have four PCs with three diff OS to try , even changed leads and turned off almost everything electrical in the house to eliminate noise etc. Result no improvement. Actually my average speedtest result graph on Thinkbroadband is heading downwards!!
When I download two large files simultaneously from Thinkbroadband I get up to double the speed of one file on its own. Is this Traffic shaping at BT or Idnet or what.
Stats from router
Down SNR 13db attn 37db rate 5888kbps interleaved
Up SNR 25db Attn 25db rate 448kbps interleaved
The exchange currently show red on plusnet info site due to missing virtual paths within BT limits but below unit spec. This seems recent and my problem is longterm .
I am only 400mtrs from the exchange so would expect 8128 sync but the copper seems poor locally or maybe high crosstalk or non twisted pairs?
Currently pings at Idnet are high as is Lonap but normally they are good, again my problem is longterm>
Sometimes I get dozens of disconnects in a day and the sync rate drops down low mainly on the Upstream link . Again this seems down to a random condition , weather, BT , water in the underground ducts.
Any suggestion? Numerous ( dozens !!!) phonecalls has BT blaming Openreach ISPs ( Eclipse/IDnet blaming BT , and BT threatening a charge for a call out ( via the ISP).
Hope I have supplied enough info. If not I cansupply more. Antivirus , Spyware etc all up to date and different on the various Pcs anyway , only one PC is in use when I test! Current modem is a Zoom X5v .
Help.
Mobile Broadband looks increasingly attractive especially since I only need about 2Gb a month.
All I want is a to get back to 2meg broadband speeds and responsiveness.
Regards
:welc: hairyman. One of the more technically minded members will, I'm sure, be along shortly to give you some advice :thumb:
Thanks The Doctor . I have posted this problem elsewhere over the years but thought I try here as well when I discovered IDnet had a user forum. My exchange was only BT enabled until recently Orange came along and TT are due in September so I don't think BT will be interested in upgrades if that is the problem. I do like Idnet and their support seems Ok but I am only getting the same actual throughputs as I had on Eclipse . They charge more though!!
By the way after a very slow upload to a website prompted me to test the actual upload speeds these are around 130kbps!!
These speeds results in a feeling of "swimming through treacle" compared to the internet at work where several hundred PCs are on the system. Indeed trying the net at a friends house in Stroud ( 3mls away on a different exchange gave a similar fast response feel ( this one on Tiscali LLU).
Hi Hairyman, :welc: and have a welcome karma! :)
Sorry, but I'm not one of the technically minded who will be able to help you, but if not tonight, I can assure you that you will receive some more useful responses in the morning. In my limited experience, from what you have said, it does sound like an external (BT) issue somewhere along the line. One thing I can assure you of is that IDNet do not use traffic shaping or port throttling, in any way, shape, or form.
While awaiting a techie's response, could you post your router stats, and also run a BT Speedtest (http://test.speedtester.bt.com:50301/), and post the results? The BT speedtester can require some patience, but perseverance is usually rewarded sooner or later.
Hi Hairyman
Welcome to the forum. :thumb: :welc: :karma:
As Simon says, IDNet do not shape or throttle traffic, so we can rule that out. Your stats suggest that your line has a 15db target noise margin, so the sync speed is about right when that is factored in. For that to have happened, there must have been frequent disconnections, are you aware of these? A BT speed test would be good, as it will show if it's a problem with the profile. Can you get the error stats from your router? If so, that would also give us some clues as to what might be happening.
ATM, my best guess would be exchange congestion or a high error count, coupled with poor stability.
If you have a battery-powered AM radio, try de-tuning it so that you just have white noise, then follow the path of the phone cable from where it enters the house up to the router. If you hear an increase in volume, you are picking up the source of any internal interference.
Hi Rik and Simon
I can rarely get any result from the BT speedtester it usually fails to authenticate or times out. it seems to be near permanently broken!
Over the last 2days 12hrs of up time the router reports as follows
Upstream SNRmargin 15db Line attn 38db Errored seconds 536secs Loss of signal 48 Loss of Frame 1 CRC errors 9 Data rate 5792kbps interleaved.
Downstream SNR margin 25db Line attn 25db Errored secs 1021secs Loss of signal 48 Loss of Frame 0 CRC errors 3 Data rate 448kbps interleaved.
I get high line noise on the voice line this seems related to the broadband starting to struggle you can see the upstream SNR lower and the downstream margin fluctuate. I have tried several filters and routers and modems and changed all the leads. Changing these makes no difference. Testing with a MW AM radio around the phone line shows only ADSL noises. I have scanned the radio spectrum locally and see little noise or local transmissions of any real strength that could cause problems.
There is only at max one metre of cable from the place where the BT line emerges from the ground to the mastersocket. The PC and router have less than a metre extra each. I was told the noise is typical of high resistance or a diode effect on poor joints ( I think a lot of the BT cable could be aluminium copper used in the early 80s when this estate was put up in open fields) maybe this gives the 38db attn for the less than 1km of cable to the exchange?
I still get slow throughputs even when there is no line noise or errors. The Stonehouse exchange still shows red on the plusnet info page. Therefore I think the trouble is contention at the exchange ( hopefully the recent addition of Orange and the forthcoming Talk Talk activation on the exchange will free up the BT gear , I think one of the Tiscali group has business only gear at the exchange as well).
Do BT traffic shape somewhere as the double simultaneous down load test does give a large increase in the overall download rate? As I do understand IDnet dont ( although ping rates are currently over 100ms on idnet and lonap circuits )
My rates tonight on Thinkbroadband and speedtest.net show below 600kbps down and between 120 and 350kbps upstream.
Hope the figures help.
Hi Hairyman,
I don't think BT can traffic shape, as such, but if there is high contention at the exchange, this could have the same effect, if I understand it correctly. Sorry I can't be of more help, Rik is usually online in the mornings, if you're able to check in tomorrow. :)
Quote from: hairyman on Aug 12, 2008, 23:21:54
I get high line noise on the voice line this seems related to the broadband starting to struggle you can see the upstream SNR lower and the downstream margin fluctuate. I have tried several filters and routers and modems and changed all the leads. Changing these makes no difference. Testing with a MW AM radio around the phone line shows only ADSL noises. I have scanned the radio spectrum locally and see little noise or local transmissions of any real strength that could cause problems.
If you have a very noisy voice line, that is likely to be your problem. You should call BT directly and tell them the problem, don't mention ADSL.
Its their job to sort out faults like this.
What Ted said, Hairyman. Call it in as a voice fault initially.
Hi
I have called it in as as voice line call many times . BT do a remote test and say there is no problem . They say its a bb problem and down to me or my ISP.
The reverse happens when I go via my ISP who say the bb seems as good as the line will stand and a callout may cost £140 plus.
Think I will have to contact OFCOM. I asked IDnet to initiate as complaint / dispute via their trade body but no reply was forthcoming!!
The bb rate is slow even when there is no line noise and I sync at 6meg and the number of errors is low.
Hi
I have just reported the "fault" to BT they were very offhand and didnt even do a line test and said it was probably a bb fault. They could go no further without a callout charge.
From the internet side when I have taken it up with Eclipse and now IDnet they say a charge may be needed . Having paid over £100 ( £130 I think) to first have the bb enabled/connected all those years ago I am reluctant to go this way.
A change to mobile bb would seem the way to make the voice line usable and get some reliable bb? Seems funny in this High Tech world that BT and two isps cannot supply a reliable connection.
Could I regrade to 2meg or lower and clear the line noise problem and get a quiet voice line?
What I dont understand is even with no line noise and no disconnects the speeds are still rubbish?
Hi
I have asked BT via the BT website to investigate the noisy and low volume voice line. They said there was no fault shown on a remote test. Any further problem could result in a 140quid callout fee.
Idnet are running a test and have a monitor on the system as I can see on a traceroute another link shown over normal with my ident on it.
I have tried two different routers so they can see if that makes any difference.
Speeds remain around 600kbps down and 150kbps up. Syncs at 5.5meg at the moment. I guess my profile and or contention is causing the slow actual speeds ?
Talking with a colleague about this three year saga he suggested requesting a cost and survey for a second BT line into the house to see if a better circuit could be found. If it was I could then cancel the old one. This would be cheaper than paying a ridiculous callout fee on this line. Would this work?
I will see what the tests show but I have had these run 6 or 7 times before with no improvement.
Thanks to all. Any comments on the above welcomed.
There's no guarantee that a new line would be better, though you could specify that it was for ADSL and BT would, I believe, refund the cost if it wasn't up to the job. However... BT's definition of ADSL performance is way below your expectations, so you might find yourself no better off, and having paid for a new line and connection (you can't migrate between physical lines).
Without stats, we can only guess at the throttle point. A BT speed test will reveal your profile, which ought to be 4500k for that sync speed. Allowing for overheads, I'd expect a maximum throughput of around 4000k. If you're getting below that, and particularly if it's variable, I'd suspect exchange congestion. If that is the issue, of course, another line might fare no better.
Hi Rik
My usual throughput is around 600kbps , I would be over the moon to get 4000 , I was happy with the old 2meg service but that was discontinued and the Max made more problems. I have only seen 4meg once in nearly 3years.
I think the irregular disconnects are dropping my profile which seems to stick there until someone resets them, the line throughputs seem to improve after a "complaining session" and someone resets the profile manually.
The line noise seems to go when the router is turned off. The trouble is this noise is irregular but persistant so when you look to do a test all is OK. The rest of the time the profile must be set low and is reset after a I call about it.
Andrew at IDnet emailed tonight to say they have put it back to BT for checking. They hope for a reply B4 monday pm.
I cannot acces the BT speedtester site it always fails to authenticate or times out.
Hopefully they can get my speed back to maybe 2004 levels ie 2meg service which syncd at 2272 and downloaded at 1800 to 1900 all the time. Getting 4 meg would be even better. The exchange shows a red on the plusnet checker. I hope the recent addition of Orange and the September launch of TT LLUs at my exchange will reduce the exchanges load on the quaint old BT steam based system!! Note I live only 400mtrs from the exchange with probably no more than 800mtrs of underground cable. So while I live in a small town on the side of the Cotswolds we are not remote ( no cable or similar though).
Is my 38db downstream line attn high for the above likely line length? Could I be on a dodgy twisted pair or indeed not a twisted pair at all?
Quote from: hairyman on Aug 15, 2008, 21:21:29
Is my 38db downstream line attn high for the above likely line length? Could I be on a dodgy twisted pair or indeed not a twisted pair at all?
my attenuation is 27db for a line length of approximately 1.3km, sync is 7616 (interleaved) and regularly download at 6mb+ so i would say from my setup that your attenuation is high for your line length.
A dodgy twisted pair would seem the most likely culprit,
in my opinion.
What Ted said, but if you post your stats we'll have a better idea.
Stats from router
Down SNR 13db attn 37db rate 5888kbps interleaved
Up SNR 25db Attn 25db rate 448kbps interleaved
These are typical router stats above .
Recently we got these below
Upstream SNRmargin 15db Line attn 38db Errored seconds 536secs Loss of signal 48 Loss of Frame 1 CRC errors 9 Data rate 5792kbps interleaved.
Downstream SNR margin 25db Line attn 25db Errored secs 1021secs Loss of signal 48 Loss of Frame 0 CRC errors 3 Data rate 448kbps interleaved
The 48 loss of signal errors suggest there's a major issue with the line - unless the router has been up for several years.
Have you at any time tried a different router, that is known to be good?
Ah! just reread your OP again, scrub that idea.
Hi
Yes as you have seen from previous posts I have used BT type USB modem, Speedtouch single port routers( two were used first one failed after a few months, second one made annoying audible switched mode PSU squarks) , went over to a Zoom X5v and got a Creative DSL blaster router as a spare. All gave similar symptoms. I have been on BB since enabling here ( 2003 ) and on the net with data exchange in some form for 25 years ( started with packet radio transmissions as a radio ham, I dont do the radio hobby now except as a listener.
The disconnects were over a weekend as far as I remember. I have seen as many in one 24hr period. These then go away for day/weeks . They are irregular but persistant. I guess they drop my profile in some way without changing the headline sync rate.
I use A ADSLnation replacement filtered faceplate now but have tried many other filters, even tried the dooble filter in both voice and data cable trick to no avail.
BT refuse to do admit there is a line problem and the bb guys ( same company in reality !!) say the same.
The voice line gets very noisy during these bb disconnect periods, The line problem seems worse when there is a dry spell of a few days, rain seems to "damp" down the bad joints ?
Idnet were doing tests on the line but seemed to have stopped running a trace on the line overnight. I could see this as another route on the Traceroute widget on the Thinkbroadband site. Whether this means they have completed tests and put it back to BT or done some tweaks and gone away I will find out next week.
The current sync is still 6meg with real downloads and speedtests showing a small improvement to about 1meg from the previous 500-600kbps.
The high number of disconnects has increased your target noise margin to the max, and I'd bet your profile is also quite low. Unless the line can be stabilised, I can't see your speeds picking up. :(
Catch 22 again as BT pass me over to their BB side and vice versa .
Thanks to the guys ( and gals ) at IDnet they are a ray on sunshine on the cloudy BB here. I guess they are hamstrung as nearly all the gear in my loop is BTs.
Cant they ( BT / Idnet) set the system to reset my profile say every day/week to overcome their faulty cables. After a full BB reset some months ago ( Idnet migrated me back to 2meg to clear my profile for a few days then back to Max) I then got 8meg syncs at SNRs around 9db , then I guess a batch of disconnects dropped me to 6meg syncs and put on interleaving, and dropped my profile even lower.
The local exchange seems heavily contended and is shown as red on plusnet. This may be causing the highly varying rates even when there are no disconnects.
As a point, I find when downloading test files I get say 100kbytes/sec on one at a time, I try another simultaneous download and I get get 90 Kbytes/sec on this and the first one hardly slows down at all at worse it drops to the same as the second one? Is this contention at the exchange or BT traffic shaping ( I used to use Eclipse as my ISP and they became similar to this but at much lower overall rates.)
Essentially, as long as BT own the local loop, problems like yours are next to impossible for an ISP to resolve. There's no mechanism to allow daily resetting of the profile, indeed BT would resist requests to do it. In that respect, you'd be better with an LLU provider who doesn't use profiles.
BT shouldn't traffic shape, but effectively exchange congestion does just that.
Yes I guess I have the LLU option now, it was BT only at my exchange until Orange was enabled a few months ago, TTalk are meant to be added on in September. Neither really attracts plus I am tied into a BT phone deal until next year.
I guess I will have to carry on as before. Can 2meg still be offered because as I understand it this is not profiled? What with the general shortage of funds these day/credit squeeze I should go for the cheapest BB deal on the BT network as my local loop is not showing the good fast system that IDnet offers to me.
Still getting below one meg ! No disconnects though!
Pal at work suggested two options
1 order a new BT line for BB
2 Apply 5Kv Flash tester Megger to incoming cables.!!
A joke ?!
Fixed rate is still available and you should get 2Mbps. However, it won't solve the disconnection problem.
A new line may, or may not, solve the problem - it depends where the problem lays and whether that would still form part of your circuit. The Megger would probably not be a good idea, given the potential to take out other peoples' lines and equipment.
Quote from: hairyman...... 2 Apply 5Kv Flash tester Megger to incoming cables.!!
That would make somebody's eyes light up at the exchange! :eek4: :eek4:
Mo
;D
Quote from: MoHux on Aug 17, 2008, 18:32:22
That would make somebody's eyes light up at the exchange! :eek4: :eek4:
Mo
;D
think i might try that BT are stalling on my fault.
I know why-there's no pairs left!! 5KV what damage would it really do?
It might even make a few joints work properly...
Quote from: Rik on Aug 18, 2008, 11:55:34
It might even make a few joints work properly...
It would melt your aluminium stuff Rik. ;D
Perfect. :thumb:
Now where's that old camera flash gun.
Only kidding i wouldnt really do it.
Neither i think would you Rik.
My lines getting worse only a matter of time before it totally fails.
I wouldn't, Dean, I'd be too worried there might be someone working at the other end. :)
Statement--- are work and BT/Openreach are compatible words?
My cable outside is really rotten , the gray plastic coated armoured item come out of the ground and travels just up 6 inches up my outside to just above my damp course into the gray box , the thin pair of pairs then goes straight through the wall right there then into my mastersocket right the other side of the cavity wall , the Router is there and the PC above it so minimal cable run.
Inspecting the grey box outside I can see from the old now unused wall plug holes above the box that it has been moved down at least once to overcome the fact that the plastic outer and armouring can be peeled of by hand!! Next rework will entail lowering the grey box into the ground I guess. Its only 25yrs old max heaven knows what the underground section is like. The above ground bit id in full shade so it not sunlight doing it, I guess the armouring corrodes, expands and bursts off the plastic bit.
The Flash Tester at work will go up to 12Kv DC I have just remembered. Makes the hairs on yr hand stand on end when you get near it!!
As a matter of interest ( I am sure I used to know but my brain cell seem to be on the retreat these days) what DC voltage comes from the exchange to a phone on and off the hook these days. I sort of remember that pulse dialling open circuited the loop during dialling. Tone dialling came along but I guess there are are old phone out there so the system must still cater for them.
I happened to measure 12 volts across the twisted pairs when I was plugging into the test socket for the recent tests.
Ref my Slow Broadband , Idnet were very helpful today and reported that last week my profile was stuck down at 800kbps due to the disconnects it now sits at 5 meg , my actual throughput seems to have improved to between 1 meg and 2.5mbps showing the exchange contention? BT dont seemed to have done anything physical just waited for their software to up my profile after a clear 72 hours with minimal disconnects. Lets see the disconnects go from now.
Idnet imply that BT usually have 20meg of capacity for every 50users so if all my fellow townfolk download at the same time we get 300kbps ish.
Seems fair in this unfair world?
Ref 2meg service is this profiled like 8meg Max?
As a note Idnet say my SNR margin has been pegged at 12db to help overcome the instability on the line , I guess this sets my Sync at the 6meg I get? This was done over two years ago so nothing new there.
Loads of questions . Sorry!!
Hi G7pfk
Are you a radio amateur with a user name like that ? ( my call is G8TFI not radiating much these days though )
Hairyman
Hi Hairyman,
The 2mb service is just that, a 2mb service - there are no profiles.
By having the noise margin set at 12db, rather than the default of 6db, this will mean that your router can't sync as high as it otherwise would, but it does mean that you are less likely to suffer when there is a lot of noise about (due to having more headroom before hitting 0db).
And G7PKF is just Dean's car numberplate!
Yes i am.
phone line between a&b should read circa 45Volts ish....48 to be precise but 45 is good 12 is rubbish and i am surprised it works at all.
there again who am i to comment cant get a decent line myself :)
Dean
Thanks for the info on phone line voltage 48V came to mind but I was in doubt when I found 12V , I will check again , pretty sure my Fluke 87 is Ok as I work in industrial elec calibration. I was grovelling behind the PC by the mastersocket at the time or maybe I had my bifocals on upside down!
When I was a radio ham I used to run 2 times 4CX350 on 144mhz or 4CX1500 when I could find a fat enough mains supply to power the 3.2KvDC at 1.5 Amp PSU, gave up the hobby when ALL the neighbours picked up my radio signals on ALL their electronic equipment!! Bet I could have stopped a router at 100 yards if they had existed then. No after 25yrs I moved onto pastures new and took up mountaineering with this computer stuff filling in between trips.
Hairyham?
Hi Again
So soon?
I have just done a Speedtest.net test see below, this is the best I have ever got mostly it is 500-600kbps down and 80-90 up. I live 400mtrs from the exchange also my voice line is low volume and often noisy as well.
We do have a Rail line betwwen the exchange and me but its not electrified ( BT might be soon though,I can feel the Flash Tester being borrowed from work!!)
Goodnight for now.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/310740101.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
If you report the voice fault, but make sure you don't mention broadband, then BT should come out and sort it (and hopefully in the process, the broadband).
I personally reported a intermittent crosstalk fault, knowing that the standard cure was to swap the pairs and this sorted my line for me. Obviously, the BT engineer found no fault when he came to check, but as I reported the fault as intermittent, they had no choice but to swap the pairs (he did the exchange to cabinet pair).
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/311184259.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Hi Lance
I have tried the intermittant noise and low volume on BT and all they do is a remote test say it shows Ok and then threaten a huge bill if an engineer is sent.
Speed s now back to sub 1meg again at 600kbps see attached speedtest.net.
I actually got nearly 24hrs with over 1mbps throughput !!! Back on yr heads lads!
SNAFU as they used to say.
Don't report intermittent noise, Hairy, but intermittent crosstalk, ie you can hear other people's conversations. It's that which BT tend to respond to.
Hi Rik
I will report intermittant crosstalk later this week and see what happens. BT did actually call me back on my last complaint to my mobile at exactly the time they said that they would call. But the result was they said there was no fault.
400mtrs from the exchange and and I get 600kbps at best still syncat 6000kbps though, SNR on the downstream is now 16 to 17db, IDnet reported that BT had fixed my SNR at 12db seemslike it has actually maxed out at 15db.
Guess the slow throughputs are maybe down to all these weirdos watching timeshifted TV from some far away police state? Roll on the closing ceremony. Imagine what will happen when the roadshow moves to poor old London town in 2012. Should I save up and go away for a month then?
Are others seeing slow actual rates right now , the very big pipe to the net from work seems slow and I think they block streaming stuff. ??
Yep down to 200kb/sec this evening from usual 400-600kb/sec hopefully this will improve next week
Hi stevethegas
Are we talking kilobits or bytes here . I am getting around 600kbps ie 0.6mbps on throughputs which equates to about 70kiloBytes/sec allowing for overheads etc. This is only slightly better than I got 5 and a half years ago on broadband when I first got connected on the original 512kbps service.
Locally I know on other exchanges people sync at 7 to 8 meg and get actual downloads around 6500kbps ie 720KBytes/sec to my 70 !
I will ask around amongst my neighbours who might have bb what they get, only one in my road has bb and they just use it and just know it works.
There is a small PC repair shop in town I will pop in and see what they know as well.
BT seem to regard anything over 0.4meg on a 8meg service to be in spec.
I did try dialup internet just to remind me how it used to be 10/12 yrs ago and make me grateful that what I have now is still about 12 times faster than then!!
Funny thing then I had a state of the art Pentium 75 ( the first Pentium I think ) now I have one running at over 3000Mhz which cost less than a third the price to build as the P75 did but is 40 times faster in clock cycles terms.
The net still arrives via exactly the same ( well over a decade more corroded actually) pair of wires.
Isnt progress a challenge. Still I find the fact I can have 400songs on my thumbnail size Mp3 player a consolation.
Hi again
Just did a final check before putting the telephone and router cables back in tidy fashion. I checked the Dc volts coming down my incoming pair of BT strings and it was 50.0volts "on the hook" and 12.73volts "off the hook" I seem to remember this is normal? Both seemed quite stable.
I am 400mtrs from the exchange in a straight line and well under a 1000mtrs by the likely cable route.
I did love those Post Office stepper type relay/selectors on the pulse dial network I wonder where they all went!
PS I am on gw5 at Idnet if that makes a difference.
I was quoting in kilobytes.
Quote from: hairyman on Aug 20, 2008, 19:21:24
Are others seeing slow actual rates right now , the very big pipe to the net from work seems slow and I think they block streaming stuff. ??
There's no shaping or throttling going on, it's purely a congestion/capacity issue.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/313434086.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/313435721.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/313437128.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/313437764.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Hi All
Waited until the olympic thingy was over ( managed to miss it all , except what was shown on the news, phew, I prefer to participate rather than watch, (I do mountain/hill walks and climbing, play badminton and go to the gym, when I am not in the garden or on the PC).
No sign of an improvement here still stuck at one meg downwards throughput. only two disconnects in five days. Sync at 6meg SNR margin sits at 15db in the downstream all as per before.
Any ideas?
What do support say?
Rik
I will call then tommorrow , last week they said my profile was at 5meg and I should get good throughputs but that BT did only place 20meg bandwidth per 50 customers on average so avarage rates can be poor.
If an exchange was heavily contended or missing full servicability it could be less than a meg all the time.
What IDNet have said is true, but not to this extent I don't believe. Let them know again, and perhaps this time they'll raise it with BT to see if there's anything going on at the exchange that could be causing this.
I would say "have you checked your exchange for congestion" but most of the checkers are usually out of date because BT isn't that keen on providing the data. Do you know what sort of error count you have?
>:D
Hi Rik
My exchange has shown red on the plusnet checker, fault is some missing virtual paths " within BT spec but below ideal" it has been at this level for some months. My slow speeds go back to the intorduction of 8meg Max here, about 30months ago I think.
Sebby I will ask IDnet to check with BT again about my exchange and report back.
I have 93 errors secs and 38 CRC Errors in about 4 days with two losses of signals on the downstream side. Upstream I have 9 errored seconds and " CRC and " signal losses. SNR Margin Down is 14.8db with Line attn 38.4db data rate is 5662kbps . SNR upstream is 25db Line attn is 25db and Data rate 448Kbps.
Voice line is Ok at the moment but as we have not used it much recently we only have a small sample.
The exchange has BT only until early this year when Orange came along TalkTalk are scheduled to add on next month but it keeps getting pushed back. I wouldnt go LLU as you hear horror stories of phone number changes and barriers to migrating back along with costs etc.
I hope the two new LLU operators may draw off the strain on BT? But on my attempts to find out from others local to me about speeds on the exchange I guess not to many people use the net around here ( maybe I know only older or poorer people? or perhaps they have a life?) .
Two neighbours who had broadband reported actual downloads around 5mbps both were similar distances to the exchange to me , both were on IPstream ie the net via BT system. Both were non geeks so really said they just found it worked OK most of the time and didnt normally do speedchecks. So they seemed to get better than 5 times my rate on a one off test , I have never seen 5meg , got 3.5meg just once I remember. My line has high loss for the 400mtrs but few errors .
I have tried two Pcs with different OSs and a laptop on XP all give about the same speeds. Both router modems give similar performance.
I am puzzled bit but assume BT must be slowing me down via their daft profiling system that seems to ramp up and down.
LLU suppliers dont use profiling I read , how do they need it and BT do?
Any advice is welcomed , I will speak to IDnet but am at a loss as to the next step as Eclipse ran into the same problem and found no "cure" over the previous 20months. I have been with Idnet since Nov 07. I only want a speedy 3Gb a month is that too much to ask?
I have used TCPoptimiser and TCPdoc to check my settings and they seem about right.
:bawl: ???
Your error count certainly not causing any problems. With a downstream attenuation of 38dB, I would have thought full sync (8,128k) should be achieved. With a downstream SNRM of ~15dB, it looks like there has probably been some instability in the past, which has caused the target SNRM to be pushed up in an attempt to stabilise the line. This is what's stopping you getting full sync.
That said, I'm not convinced that this has any relation to the throughput problem. Whilst there's no real reason why your line should have been unstable (other than BT's ageing network, of course), it looks fairly stable at the moment, and so I'd have thought that the profile will be correct. That said, we still don't know for definite, so if you could run a BT speed test (http://www.speedtester.bt.com/) (perseverance may be required!), that may help (especially if it showed that the profile was wrong - then it would all make sense and we could take it from there). If you can't get it to work, IDNet should be able to tell you your profile.
The profile system is indeed a pain, and it's only in place to take the load of BT's systems (go figure!). :)
What Sebby said, Hairy. :)
Hi Sebby
So what we have is IDnet saying their system is not shaped or throttled but given the fact that BTs shaping and throttling via the means of their software Idnet also have a "load taken" of their end of the network as a default setting.
During my last call to Idnet last week they said that BT had fixed my SNR margin to 12db to stabilise the line the syncs should be at around 6meg and profile at 5meg, I have only had a few disconnections since then but the actual throughputs stay at sub 1meg. My previous profile had been dropped to as low as 150kbps due to Disconnections/line noise . :eek4:
Would regrading "up to a 2meg" service get around this traffic management by BT. When I was on this I got syncs at 2272kbps and got nearly 2000kbps throughputs. Recently Idnet tried to clear my profile by putting me onto 2meg for a few days ( from MAX ) then put me back onto 8meg. The 2meg service just for a few days seemed to give well under the old 2meg rate . This I guess was due to increased use of the net by all then. Now I get little better than the old 512k service I had nearly 6years ago.
It cost £24 a month way back then with a £150 connection feee with hardware. Now it costs £18 with no transfer fee, just shows you get what you pay for in life. The trouble is there is no point in using a Rolls Royce ( Idnet) with a donkey ( BT) under the bonnet.
I will call Idnet , would have called today but we had multiple breakdowns at my place of work after the long weekend so I was busy fixing them ( those reporting the faults had a rest it seems).
Thanks for the help. Will try a BT speedtest and report back but usually they fail on timeout or authentication. Another ploy? Cynic or what !!!
Amazing I got through to BT speedtest second go!!!!!!!!!!!
Results were DSL con rate 5728kbps upstream :eek4:
448kbps downstream :rant2:
IP profile 4500kbps :o
Actual TP 1129kbps :thumbd:
The actual TP seems on the high side of most of my tests elsewhere ( see speedtest.net results on previous posts). Thinkbroadband shows my throughput graph at 1meg and heading down.
Looks like exchange or network congestion / BT shaping results in a 25% rate compared to profile. ???
I don't think you should blame everything on BT or exchange congestion. My line, now the Olympics - IDNet's chosen reason for poor speeds - has finished, has not recovered particularly well.
The graph below shows a period of around five minutes taken just before this post, measured by Netmeter. The first block of red is a large download test file from Thinkbroadband - http://www.thinkbroadband.com/download.html
The centre block of red is a BT speed-test, which showed a throughput of 6mbps for a 7150 profile.
The third block of red is another large download from Thinkbroadband.
The graph has its scale set to a maximum of 4mbps, so you'll see that for a large proportion of the time, I'm getting nowhere near even 4mbps from Thinkbroadband/IDNet (not sure which).
If, as I think, BT speed-tests bypass the ISP, then this graph shows that either Thinkbroadband has big problems, or IDNet is struggling with capacity. I know what I think, but anyone else is free to draw their own conclusions.
(http://youwho.www.idnet.com/idnet-v-bt.jpg)
Quote from: hairyman on Aug 26, 2008, 19:52:28
Amazing I got through to BT speedtest second go!!!!!!!!!!!
Results were DSL con rate 5728kbps upstream :eek4:
448kbps downstream :rant2:
IP profile 4500kbps :o
Actual TP 1129kbps :thumbd:
The actual TP seems on the high side of most of my tests elsewhere ( see speedtest.net results on previous posts). Thinkbroadband shows my throughput graph at 1meg and heading down.
Looks like exchange or network congestion / BT shaping results in a 25% rate compared to profile. ???
Right, I think you need to pass this one on to IDNet now. The profile is wrong by 500k, which suggests that there's still instability, but nonetheless you should be getting a much higher throughput.
I would try and get IDNet to raise this with BT before thinking about moving to a fixed-rate product.
Hi Dopamine
Yes as a long standing customer of ISP Eclipse I have fine tuned my bullsh*t detection apparatus.
Two near neighbours get 5meg throughputs most of the time both on BT based ISP neither ISP is highly rated. Just spoke tonight with a friends son who uses the net on our exchange they get 3meg min throughputs on 6meg syncs even with nearly 3.5km line length to my less than 1km on Tiscali ( do they use Orange LLUs?).
I get 1meg , often 600kbps , occasionally a burst to 3meg. I am on ISP IDnet.
We are all on the same exchange.
Ergo I think the bottleneck is obvious.
I have used two modem routers and three Pcs here giving similar results.
I will contact IDnet for news and see if they would like to supply a MAC for use next month. Also I will ask about the possibility of a 2meg service as a trial option over a longer period.
My line isnt brilliant but I can do nothing about that, other than going mobile data. It is rumoured that 02 are coming to an exchange within 400mtrs that would tie in with my mobile phone use as well. They give over 1 MegByte/sec downloads on the neighbouring exchange.
I get a similar Netmeter pattern on all downloads , I must admit I was so suprised in getting the BT speedtester tonight I didnt look at the Netmeter graph!! Its usually all spiky just like my favourite mountains! ::)
Quote from: hairyman on Aug 26, 2008, 23:01:59
I will contact IDnet for news and see if they would like to supply a MAC for use next month. Also I will ask about the possibility of a 2meg service as a trial option over a longer period.
A MAC is valid for 30 days.
Moving to a fixed 2Mb service will involve a regrade. Usually there is a charge (BT will charge IDNet), but IDNet may waive it.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 5664 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 4500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 481 kbps
Hi All
I have just come back from a weeks holiday - very relaxing - must do it more often.
To celebrate I managed to get a speedtest out of BT . Results shown above . Throughput worse than ever at 481kbps !!!!
I will ask IDnet to look at it again on Monday. Surely a throughput of around 10% of the Profile is wrong?
[confidential information removed]
SNR margins still are 16db on the downstream link and interleaved. Others locally get at worst 3meg plus on BT .
I therefore assume IDnet are hopelessly contended, as the throughputs I get now are far worse than with Eclipse a year ago, and they were bad but at least they were cheapish. :bawl:
That throughput is way too low, I would suggest you try and get another couple of tests run and let support have them all. The fact that your NM is 16db suggests the line has been flapping, though. Has this been investigated?
Something's seriously wrong there. Get onto IDNet again.
Hi Rik
The disconnects have temporarily gone away , nothing has been firmly found. Its nothing at my end thats all I can say. My line attn is high at 38db for 400mtrs line of site ( less than 1km by wire) to the exchange. I suspect there are either poor joints, high crosstalk with other bb lines and or some section thatare not twisted pairs. The drop outs barely loose me any data as they are for seconds but they drop my profile last time it was reported stuck at 150kbps. They dont seem to loose me throughput except thro the weird BT traffic shaping profile software.
The disconnects have been there since 8meg Max , I had none with 2meg or 512kbps ( with Eclipse ) they only came along with Max and the increased popularity of bb at the same time.
As the dropouts have been there for 31 months they are persistant but intermittant. The pattern is they become worse during drier spells ( so OK in August and now) the underground ducts are well wet when I peaked down the open cover in our High Street last month. I guess the poor joints and or crosstalk improve when damp.
Anyway the profile now is currently at 4500kbps and I get sub 1000 throughputs with no recent dropouts.
Others locally sync at lower speeds but get 3meg plus throughputs ( Tiscali and BT) so its not likely to be my exchange. Ergo the remaining link may be Idnet or the other BT gear they hire to provide the service.
I have tried most tests here, many modems, new leads, turning off other electrical stuff in the house, I have three other PCs/laptops available to trywhich give the same results. I have only a mastersocket with a ADSLnation filtered faceplate. Using a simplephone makes no difference.
The throughputs remain lower than I had with Eclipse Internet , I moved to Idnet with the hope of getting back to the days of 2meg broadband which gave 1800kbps all the time. The use of the internet is now much increased so we all seem to be getting a smaller narrower bit of it to use?
Sebby - just seen your post - I will contact IDnet on Monday and email today. They will as ever be helpful but mention the likelihood of the £169 charge.
Quote from: hairyman on Sep 06, 2008, 11:43:13
Sebby - just seen your post - I will contact IDnet on Monday and email today. They will as ever be helpful but mention the likelihood of the £169 charge.
I don't believe this is actually a line issue, so I think having an engineer out would be pointless anyway.
Have IDNet ever suggested moving you to a fixed 2Mbps service, Hairy. It might be worth a try to see if that will overcome the issue, it has been known to in the past.
Hi Rik
They have not suggested it but what they did do earlier this year is to put me onto 2meg for a few days as a way to clear my profile then they put me back to Max. I only had the 2meg for one evening ( I think) but the actual throughput seemed about the same?
Damn, there goes another bright idea. :(
Hi All
Got another speedtest out of BT at only third attempt!!
At least we now are better than the old 512kbps bb days the last speedtest was lower!
Sorry to fill up this post but it keeps you all in the picture and saves me recording the results elsewhere.
I will contact IDnet and see where we go from here. Also will do another few BT speedtests.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 5664 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 4500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 799 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
You have my sympathies, see if you can get one early morning, at that time BT and/or Idnet congestion shouldn't be issue,if that's poor surely there has to be something wrong.
I can't believe it's congestion at this time of day at the weekend, does your router log errors, Hairy? I just have an instinct that line quality is part of the problem, and if the error count is high, it would slow throughput.
Me neither, Rik. It could be line quality, but it's a difficult one to say for sure. I wonder if it's an exchange problem?
Exchange or an extremely bad cable. My sense is that several different issues are working together against Hairy. :(
Found the following log files on my router ( Zoom X5V hardwired modem router 4 ethernet ports plus one usb) I also have a Creative router I get similar results from both. I have also tried Speedtouch routers and simple usb modems. I never seem to get many errors only the disconnects on an weather dependant cycle. All the lines are underground. I think the line length is around 800mtrs when I have followed the green boxes and inspection hatches. Uptime for this log is about 24hrs.
Question where can I find the best info on the local exchange ( Stonehouse in Gloucestershire) state other than going to it when the openreach Transit is there as they use it as a depot. It is a large building about 60ft by 60ft. I live in a small town with a lot of outlying villlages on the same exchange ( about 6000 lines I think) . I have used the plusnet information pages to see the exchange status. ???
Tx Bytes 22084517
Rx Bytes 192196550
Tx Cells 416689
Rx Cells 3626350
Rx HEC Errors 0
Tx Mgmt Cells 1
Rx Mgmt Cells 0
Tx CLP0 Cells 416689
Rx CLP0 Cells 3626350
Tx CLP1 Cells 0
Rx CLP1 Cells 0
Rx Errors 0
Tx Errors 0
Rx Misrouted Cells 0
Samknows (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/search.php)
Will give you an idea of current service levels
The error count is low, at 0, so that's another possibility ruled out. For the exchange, take a look at Samknows. (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SSSHE)
Or what Vit said, but my link goes straight to your exchange. ;)
Quote from: hairyman on Sep 05, 2008, 23:44:59
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 5664 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 4500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 481 kbps
Hi All
I have just come back from a weeks holiday - very relaxing - must do it more often.
To celebrate I managed to get a speedtest out of BT . Results shown above . Throughput worse than ever at 481kbps !!!!
I will ask IDnet to look at it again on Monday. Surely a throughput of around 10% of the Profile is wrong?
[confidential information removed]
SNR margins still are 16db on the downstream link and interleaved. Others locally get at worst 3meg plus on BT .
I therefore assume IDnet are hopelessly contended, as the throughputs I get now are far worse than with Eclipse a year ago, and they were bad but at least they were cheapish. :bawl:
Hi Hairyman,
I have been taking a look at your posts so far, your problem does not appear to be related to any current congestion issues but will need further information to get to the bottom of the problem. Can i ask that you contact the support: support@idnet.com as soon as possible with all your current BT test results and any ping graphs you might have so that i can look into this for you, I will also need your line number details.
James-IDNet
get the bt engineer in this sort of situation, they will normally blag something if the line is ok so you don't get a bill, if they come out & there is a problem, no charge.
As for BT shaping or throttling or whatever, this is one of the greediest companies in GB who will use any & all methods to make as much money from as little cost to them as possible.
ISP's & BT blaming each other is justifiable really as there are few ways to find out who is the problem which can cost you years of bad connections trying to figure it out.
We can say it is not idnet but could be anything else, I would start with BT, Backward Twerps, poxy little lines connecting the country, interweaved with tree branches, put in some thick 25mm wires you donkeys, we are only one up from a length of string & 2 paper cups how it is now, could easily just be that but you need to really work BT into sorting it out, get them to put a new line, thruppence to them, with my bro they had to dig up concrete, install new equipment as he kept having problems but's that what it was, in any normal situation they wouldn't of done that, push the gits.
I take it you're not a fan of BT then? Neither are we. ;)
Hi Again Sebby and Signline
Taken a short break from the hassle of the slow net, plus some idiot totalled my car when was I was sat stationary in it on Sunday evening. Must be BT preparing a frontal assault?
I will call Idnet after the car insurance people get their calls to me over. Maybe tommorrow but I should really find time to do some work for my company as well!!
Tried a speedtest tonight got 654kbps , last few test were up to 2mbps plus but now its a weekday ( day or night ) the rates will go back to 500ish. I do seem to get better rates over the weekend at any time of the day compared to weekdays ???
Yup BT seem not to give a s**t . Our cables are all underground over here, in the old part of the town they are all overhead and go back to the 1950s. wooden posts and climbing pegs etc
CU all tommorrow night, thank for yr support.
I'm sorry to hear about your accident. :(
You must get in touch with IDNet when things are sorted with the car and you have some time. I know it must be really frustrating for you, and the cause really isn't clear, so IDNet will need some more information. :)
Hi All
Sorry about the delay in getting back to you, I have been tied up with work and the insurance side of car damage. Result is the third parties insurance co have admitted full liability, my car is a write off though , shame as it was in fine condition and I would have driven it anywhere knowing it would get there. Good news I have found another car for collection at the end of this week. It should do over 50mpg solo, pull my small caravan easily and cost only £120 RFL I would still prefer to have the old one. Still a massive waste of time and a load of agro for my family and me. Could we all drive slower in future. :no: My first accident in 19yrs and 1 million plus miles though. :shake:
Thought I would celibrate with a bt speedtest which worked second time. This was done at approx 2200 hrs tonight. This is the best speed I have ever got on a BT test!!! I see some complain at 5900kbps throughput!! My result is still slow and it will fall below one meg during the week if previous tests are anything to go by.
Think I will investigate NewNet which would at least cut costs a bit. My landline gets noisy at times now that the spell of dry weather is drying out the cables. I have only 2 disconnects in ten days with no significant errors though.
Trust you are all well. I will contact IDnet if I have time this week to ask them to run it all via BT again.
Results below.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 5984 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2862 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
Sorry to hear about your troubles with the car, but I'm glad it's sorted now. :)
You'd never get close to 5900k as you profile is only 5000k. That said, your throughput is low, but given that you did the speed test at 22:00 it could be congestion. Could you run another one in the morning, perhaps?
We'll be sorry to see you go, and I'm not convinced that your speeds are ISP-related. You say yourself that your line is noisy, and the throughput issues could be caused by a high error count.
I would certainly run another speed test and then contact IDNet as if the problem is at their end, they can probably do something for you. ;)
Hi Sebby
Yes i realise that all I could get at best would be say 4500kbps with my profile locked at 5000. I was just saying that the other big post on this section of the forum someone is complaining about only getting 5900. I often get 590.
I have no data errors showing from my router stats over ten days up time, the line is noisy but the 14 to 16db SNR margin seems to sort that. The voice line is only noisy when the router syncs up. All the above have Not changed since 8meg Max came in here about 30mths ago.
Speeds are always worst during weekdays ( day and night) compared to weekends when I get better speeds in general.Week day rates are often still 700kbps !!
Would be happy to get the current speed on a regular basis. I think its trottling somewhere as on a longer download the speed varies up and down then tails off. Not implying its IDnet just why pay highish price for a top ISP racehorse when the BT donkey is in line all the time. May go LLU when my phone deal expires in 2009 .
I don't believe it's throttling, but rather congestion. And that could be at the exchange or within IDNet's network. If it's the latter, there is something they can do about it, which is why you should get in touch with them. :)
Hi again
Managed another speedtest tonight. The BT speedtest site seems to be working better these days as I got in first time. unfortunately my throughput is back to normal at below one meg actually 700kbps.
IPprofile has dropped to 4meg , yesterday it was 5meg and last week 4.5meg.
I imagine it will be even less than this during weekdays.
I will contact IDnet and see what they can do, maybe they can put me on a 2meg service and I will maybe contact BT and try the " intermittant hearing of other voices on the line" type idea to see if another exchange pair would clear the dropouts.??
The line noise only occurs after dry spells , we have had no rain for nearly two weeks. The line attn fluctuates during these noise patches as do the SNRmargins. If I mention line noise to BTphone folk they come back saying it must be the BB and the BB boys say its a line problem.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 5824 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 4000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 726 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
I see your profile has dropped since yesterday, and it's not correct for the sync, so that suggests some potentially significant instability. That said, I'm not convinced this is the cause of your low throughput, and I would get in contact with IDNet in the morning.
I think the trick with the bt voice people is to play the simple customer, and not even mention the broadband.
Hi All
Just had an email from James. They have checked their network and confirmed that my link into it was uncongested. On checking with BT service provider , they have firstly made adjustments to the line in order to settle my IP profile at 5mb as it seems to be bumping around, however after further investigation they have been able to confirm that my circuit is linked to a congested VP on their network and due to the severity of my problem they suggest that an upgrade to the capacity of this VP will be due very soon. Not totally sure what a congested VP looks like but if it needs petrol and a match ?
I dont hold out to much as the speeds have been poor since early 2006 when Max came in. As Orange and TT have appeared at my local exchange in the last few months I cant see BT spending to much if their customer base might be migrating. Still we shall see.
Will get onto BT ref the voice line approach. Meanwhile I will do a few speedtests.
Thanks
At least we know know that it is a Bt capacity problem. Its a shame Bt don't make this correct information more widely available, instead of reporting everything as ok.
Hi Lance
I guess honesty is basically bad in industry or buisness? ???
There are a few shining lights out there but sadly few.
I wouldnt claim to be one but always try to be straight when dealing with customers questions ( over 25yrs as a on site service and commissioning engineer) I have a clear conscience , but I am still an engineer not a manager/director actually I was a director for a while but gave up after being lied to by a dodgy fellow director shareholder who was stitching up both our customers and suppliers. :rant2:
Thanks to Idnet and James for tracking down this, the exchange was showing red on one of the online checkers earlier this year until the early summer.
What do BT/Openreach do to resolve this? Add a extra box ? :thumb:
Regards
Well it's nice to finally know the real issue, but as you say, it's not certain anything will be done about it. Unfortunately, that's just BT for you. The only alternative is LLU, and that depends on whether your exchange has been unbundled.
Quote from: hairyman on Sep 22, 2008, 23:13:16
What do BT/Openreach do to resolve this? Add a extra box ? :thumb:
That's exactly what they do. They seem never to learn that demand is growing, unfortunately, so they tend to fix the current problem rather than put in spare capacity. :(
Quote from: Rik on Sep 23, 2008, 08:30:35
That's exactly what they do. They seem never to learn that demand is growing, unfortunately, so they tend to fix the current problem rather than put in spare capacity. :(
Well its cheaper to put in just one box when things grind to a halt than prepare in advance, god forbid that expense and have spare capacity when no one is complaining, Rik >:D
I think it could be cheaper for them if they did a bit more planning in advance. ::)
Me too, Seb.
Hi Gary , Rik and Sebby
Thanks for your advice on BT and my slow , slow connection. Did a speedtest again actual throughput was a hi for me 843kbps!!! Nice!!!
I will try to press BT to look at my voice line again as I have high noise ( I suspect broadband cross talk from other users with cable next to mine or poor joints rectifying my downstream signal ) . We have had little rain for two weeks and the line definitely gets worse during dry spell. I have 32 disconnects showing in just over 2 days uptime. Previously I had 2 disconnects in 14 days. My profile seems not to dropped so maybe BT have locked it at 4.5/5.0 meg as stated in my last email ( below in prev posts) from James at idnet. A few months ago my profile was driven down to 500kbps by the rubbish connection. If it goes that way I will ask to be put on a 2meg service which I understand has no profile formed.
We now have TT and Orange on our exchange ( added this year) that could avoid the profiling thing and the contention/congestion at the BT boxes. Maybe next year when my phone deal runs out? But the poor line may be the main issue there. A near neighbour has TT and I will ask what download rate he gets and double check he has been transferred to TT LLU rather than TT BT as I know TT were marketing locally before the exchange activation with immediate internet access via some other providers gear.
The disconnects mess up the profile and make the voice line noisy but they dont add any errors to the router stats they are simple drop outs when the router cannot contact the exchange. Each dropout and reconnect takes approx 15secs thats all.
Speed test below.
comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 5248 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 4500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 843 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
It's certainly worth getting the voice side looked at, but just be aware of the BT charge if the fault lies with your equipment. LLU is a good option, though avoid Orange like the plague! I think TT are okay these days, but you might want to do some research first! :)
Results Image not loaded
Hi from slowsville!!
Maybe a little faster than usual though at 1319kbps. Usually its around 600 to 800.
The connection has been like this for over 2 and a half years so I dont hold out much hope on BT doing anything about it soon. At least I know its most likely BT exchange congestion now but going back 2 years plus I dont think enough people were on broadband locally to cause congestion then. The voice line is OK at the moment as we have had quite a bit of rain which damps it down. The attenuation remains at 38db for only 400mtrs straight line to the exchange.
Not sure if the BT congestion is at the local exchange though as thinking about it neighbours get 3 to 4 meg actual download speeds on BT !!
Any thoughts why I get less than 1meg when others get more at similar syncs in the same town on the same network ( BT ) the only visible difference is I am on IDNET and they use BT themselves ????
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6720 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1319 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
I can't give you specifics, but with that kind of attenuation, you should be getting full sync. But then we know there's something not right with your line as it's also unstable. My memory is terrible; did I ask you to try the test socket already?
People on different VPs at the exchange can have different experiences, Hairy, apart from the more obvious wiring differences.
I can see that you've been moved to a different central by IDNet, and when I checked last week, there were no capacity issues within the IDNet network. I was told, though, that whilst the first batch of central changes had generally produced an improvement, later ones were not having much effect, suggesting the problem is outside the IDNet boundaries.
Hi Again
Another speedtest this time during a quiet period ie not a weekday evening. As slow as ever!
My line is now stable and syncs at 6970k and IPprofile at 5000.
Test socket tried hundreds of times it will and does make no difference as I have only one phone and no slavesockets. Line length above ground here is 2metres max inc the lead to the router!!
At IPprofile of 5meg I should get 4meg now and again I guess. Saw 4meg once in 2.5years. Mostly its 600 to 800 kbps.
The central move made no apparent change. Looks like LLU will be the only way 02 is expected next year they work like a rocket on the neigbouring exchange a pal of mine has 4.5km line length and gets 5 to 6 meg download speeds on their basic 8meg £7.50 deal. His attn is higher than mine. I am getting fed up with this BT throttling as I only need 5gig a month max its I am hardly abusing the system.
BT via IDnet say they have locked my IPprofile at 5meg to remove the cycling of the profile . I get NO errors on the data flow just 5 disconnects in 10 days at the moment.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6496 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 880 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
Unfortunately, a migration may be your only solution. :(
Hi Rik
Would you agree that with the BT system keeping my throughput below a one meg kbps nearly all the time, I am using a "Rolls Royce" ISP idnet with a donkey on a cart track highway ( BT ) ?
Question what donkey BT based ISP will save me cash ?
Would a transfer to 2meg with IDnet help?
Can I be put on a different VP ?
Will BT even consider upgrading the exchange if Orange , TT and soon O2 are adding their gear there and taking BT customers off the bb and voice BT network.
Memo to myself -- must sell my BT shares if they ever get off the floor again!!
I would say to some extent you're right, but I don't believe BT are (deliberately) keeping your throughput low. Something is not right, but finding out what the problem is could be tough. Have you been onto IDNet? I'd be surprised if they weren't keen to get this sorted; after all, that throughput is seriously low for the profile.
Quote from: hairyman on Oct 04, 2008, 11:31:50
Question what donkey BT based ISP will save me cash ?
An Enta reseller might be an option for you, but LLU seems a better route.
QuoteWould a transfer to 2meg with IDnet help?
I suspect not. :(
QuoteCan I be put on a different VP ?
Not generally. IDNet might be able to request a lift and shift, but that depends on BT again.
QuoteWill BT even consider upgrading the exchange if Orange , TT and soon O2 are adding their gear there and taking BT customers off the bb and voice BT network.
They should, but there are signs that they're not investing in capacity at exchanges ahead of the WBC rollout.
I'm not convinced an Enta reseller would help. I think there's something wrong with the line, and really LLU is the only thing that could sort it.
I was just looking at the 'save cash' part of the question, Seb.
Ah. :blush:
Hi Sebby
Idnet have reported that BT say there is a problem with "missing VPs " at the exchange / system. They plan to upgrade so they say, but I cant see they will invest with the alien providers Orange/ TT having just activated here and O2 for 2009 Q1 all taking up custom with very good "all in comms deals" cost wise.
The missing VPs have been reported for over a year so that indicates BTs intentions!!
Up until this year all we had on my exchange was BT.
Ref my line I do have some intermittant line noise mostly when it has been dry ( ie no rain) for over a week and only when the router/routers ( as I have tried three and a USB modem) are synced up. Over the last ten days I have only 5 disconnects.
I get no corrupt data or errors on the router stats and have never seen any in the past. Just disconnects which can amount to several dozen a day at worst. BT via Idnet say they have locked my IPprofile to 5000kbps to stabilise this occasional but persistant line problem.
Yes mainly if I have to stay on sub 1000kbps rates I would seek to save money. Colleagues get much faster rats on £20 p month all you can eat type deals so it galls a bit that I get such slow internet functionallity at £17.99 pm , its so slow that often pages takinf a few seconds to load normally can take 10to 20 seconds ( we are talking BBC and other well served sites here.
Hi Rik
Ref Can I be put on a different VP ?
Not generally. IDNet might be able to request a lift and shift, but that depends on BT again.
What would I need to do to expedite a lift and shift via IDnet and what actually does that entail at BTs / IDnets end.
Again thanks from slowsville territory in darkest Gloucestershire.
WBC rollout looks like three years plus away around here.
Hairy
Hi Hairy
A lift and shift is a physical change of wiring in the exchange from one piece of equipment to another. When it can be done depends on what's available to move to. It might, or might not, change the VP. Going to a fixed rate service and back is an example of when it can happen.
Hi Rik
Another dismal speedtest from BT. The net seemed so slow tonight and the test confirmed it. It was taking 20seconds to load mt usual single Google news homepage. On dial up it only takes 40seconds !!
Thinkbroadband speedtest showed the same speed. At 530kbps . Router shows no errors or disconects.
Will complain to Idnet and ask them to put it back to BT may talk about a "lift and shift" ( doesnt that sound like something dodgy in the woodshed! ).
Included a Thinkbroadband traceroute to show the fairly good ping times.
Results Image not loaded
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6688 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 496 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
Host Sent Recvd Best Avg Worst
1 adslguide-gw2.core-rs2.thdo.ncuk.net 15 15 0ms 0ms 2ms
2 gi0-1-10-star1.bdr-rt1.rbsov.ncuk.net 15 15 0ms 0ms 0ms
3 idnet-gw-a.lonap.net 15 15 0ms 0ms 1ms
4 telehouse-gw2-g0-2-400.idnet.net 15 15 0ms 11ms 83ms
Definitely get onto IDNet. No way is this due to a bit of congestion; there is something more to it.
Hi Sebby
Spoke to IDnet toady they were very polite but said they can do no more , the fault is with BT with missing Vps etc. They say I must be contending with some heavy users or maybe more than 50 users are sharing the 20meg of bandwidth BT allocates to every 50 connections. They explained that BTs standard terms are to provides 20meg of exchange bandwidth to every 50 users but missing Vps may increase this. Basically they gave me a polite brush off and said no more could be done.
Idnet said no more could be done about BT via them , I suggested a lift and shift they said that wasnt possible and probably wouldnt help. They for once seemed to want me off the phone to them and when I suggested a LLu transfer might be the only way to help the throughputs they said it might be the only way. I dont feel like calling them again as its a blind alley and they are only in reality are only agents for BT along with the other non LLU folk.
I am really at my wits end, would asking for a dispute procedure to be started help in any way . the other option is to cut my losses and find a super cheap BT agent type isp ( Newnet) and transfer to an LLU when my phone deal expires.
I still IPprofile at 5500kbps and tp at 600kbps , Idnet say there appears to be no problem with my end or theirs and as the above show its all down to congestion. I asked why as this has gone on for over 2 years actually probably 3 years now could it be congestion as few were on the net on bb three yrs ago compare to now. I have been on the net for over ten years now ( over 25 years if you count packet radio data via my old amateur radio hobby) and on broadband since activation in early 2003. 512kb gave just that nearly that all the time, the 2meg gave 1800kbps min most of the time but it has all gone downhill since then.
Any suggestions as the IDguys have washed their hands of it as I definitely had a polite brush off today. As a ex service engineer and manager I can say it was very well done!
In fairness, IDNet are probably as fed up about the situation as you are, because of BT. Unfortunately for ISPs like IDNet, they're at the mercy of a farce like BT (maybe that's a bit strong! :P) and sometimes they are simply powerless.
I think we've done everything we can, and as you say, LLU is your best bet (assuming there are LLU services at your exchange).
Hi Sebby
We have Orange ( ugh) addded late last year I think and TT just activated. 02 may activate next year.
Up until last year we only had BT.
I am tied for a while to a voice line deal with BT otherwise I would be off. I do like BT for voice calls as they have good deals but maybe if 02 activates I would go for a complete mobile/voice/bb deal.
I could try a mobile internet dongle as it ought to be better than the wired speeds but I know we are in a bit of a dip and 3g hardly works. I could move ? But I had planned to retire here (sooner please rather than later).
Idnet seem very good if BT let them be. I would be happy with a reliable 1000kbps but often the net is so slow it takes 10 to 40 seconds to get any response to hyperlinks from say the BBC site. It really seems like I am waiting for 49 to 499 others to go through a narrow door first!!
Just seen this item on thinkbroadband about Be seems they let you tweak the SNRs via your web portal for yourself. probably as useful as the control that alters the power steering "feel" on my car but it makes BT look archaic.
Link to it below
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3731-be-allows-customers-to-change-connection-parameters.html
If IDNet have done all they can, to be truthful, it would be a waste of their time and yours to try to take it any further, Hairy, so the advice to consider LLU might be the best you'll get, even though you're tied at the moment.
Just out of curiosity, have you done all that was suggested at the bottom of that link?
QuoteTo some extent these tweaks are not worthwhile until you have tidied up the telephone wiring in your home if searching for extra speed. Items like the ring wire and a spiders web of telephone extension wiring can easily result in the connections performance degrading a lot during the hours of darkness and with longer nights rapidly approaching, now is the time to tweak your broadband connection. As well as just removing unused telephone wiring, there are three main other things you can do remove the ring wire, fit an ADSL/ADSL2+ faceplate, or fit an I-Plate.
One thing you could try, Hairy, is an email to the CEO of BT.
Hi Simon
Thanks for the advice on faceplates wiring etc. In really think I have done all I can but would be more than happy to find I have missed something.
Yes I did all that about a year ago, I have a ADSL nation filtered faceplate , I only have a mastersocket ie no slavesockets and even peeked into the faceplate and cut the ring wire track on the pcb just in case!! Without a slave the ring wire goes nowhere.
My tele line comes out of the ground only 2feet from my router ie the grey BT box is immediately the other side of the wall to where I am now at the PC. I can detect no local noise on a MW radio and all my cables are new and best quality. I only have one phone which can be either a DECT phone ( normal) or old fashioned wired one for tests and backup when we have power cuts. The bb is not effected by the DECT phone . I have tried several modems and routers.
I have tried four diff PCs with three diff OS on them all report the same speeds it has been this way for 2yrs and now 10months!!
I am syncing at 7000kbps right now and speedtest just showed 521kbps from thinkbroadband and 440kbps from the BTsite . IPprofile was 5500kbps .
HI Rik
Yes I might try an email to BT top dog , but I expect he is trying to get his money out of his Icelandic bank or some other scam rather than work out how to make money by keeping customers.
What I will do is send him a letter recorded delivery or similar asking for a reply within a short period of time and cc it to my MP and Ofcom.
Probably a waste of time but so is with dealing with previously Eclipse Internet and now Idnet both where very helpful but as purely agents/subcontractors for BT they have no control of the infrastructure and indeed where else can they go for said infrastructure other than the monoploy BT. Idnet even seem to have to almost beg BT to supply them with outgoing interconnects which are overdue.
I use the net in the evenings but only need less than 3gb a month , it would be pointless to do large downloads, stream or watch video on line as even VOIP is unusable due to the choppy net. Indeed even U Tube often is unwatchable.
Sad, the net was good back in 512kbps days as people produced simple websites to suit lower speeds now site pages are large being written for people on fast 8meg or better links so with 512kbps type speeds it takes an age to even browse.
I will ask Idnet to initiate a failure to agree notice and ask them to escalate it to their arbitrator which ever one they use.
When Uncle Ben was CEO, we saw some good results by direct contact, Hairy. I've not heard any reports about the new guy.
Hi Rik
I will ferret out the BT CEO details and send him a letter and email.
Meanwhile I plan to track down one of the local BT / Openreach guys and have an unofficial chat, the local exchange is a very large building and they use it as a depot/stores/tearoom and place to park their cars when collecting their vans, plus it is only a few yards away.
Also I will probably request a MAC and try to at least try to save some cash as NewNet is £5 a month cheaper for the same service and similar ratings. At least that way I am working a bit less to pay Idnets bill. Two pints of beer or an extra gallon on diesel ( 50miles travel ) is nothing to be sniffed at in these hard times.
Just to check on the congestion on my net connection I did a speedtest at 5am and got just over 3meg as I am IPprofiled at 5500 thats still a little short of optimal but it does show the difference as 0.5meg is normal daytime or evening. Syncs at 6670kbps and downstream SNR at 11 to 12db.
I can't say I blame you, Hairy. If you can't get the service, you might just as well pay less. If I were to move, my shortlist is Newnet and Zen.
Zen is the same price as IDNet, isn't it?
It is, same deal virtually.
Tiscali not on your list, Rik? ;) :out:
The last 24 hours my speeds are back up to normal or better has any thing changed, I have not had these speeds for over a month. ;D
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/337374813.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
:happy: :happy:
Good to hear, Den. Let's hope these speeds continue. :fingers:
Quote from: Sebby on Oct 11, 2008, 20:09:11
Tiscali not on your list, Rik? ;) :out:
Yes, but only for people I don't like. >:D
Have not had speeds like these for a long while (the slowest last month was about 1500kbs) and this is the second highest since I joined Idnet.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/337823645.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Hope this continues ;D
Quote from: Rik on Oct 12, 2008, 10:08:05
Yes, but only for people I don't like. >:D
:lol:
Hi All
Did a BT speedtest last night and got nearly a best ever ( at least since I was on 2meg broadband 3 years ago!!) at 1230kbps at IPprofile at 5000kbps. Its didnt last though. Back to 500k tonight.
I am very pleased that you guys can get 6854kbps down and 381Kbps up , last time I did a speedtest at speedtester.net I got 480kbps down and 112kbps up. I just want a little speedup here mostly it has gone down hill over three years. The Thinkbroadband graph prediction thing says I will be below 400kbps average by this Christmas based on tests over the last year or so. Up until the transfer to ID nearly a year ago it pointed to 2meg tps as being likely in early 2008.
Ref Tiscali they are not all bad my neighbour used them before he moved and his 2meg service ran three times faster than my 8meg. :-*
Yes I will look at Newnet as they look OK at a very good price. Its a shame to leave IDnet as they are very helpful but cannot help.
The "spell" has been put on BT so we can expect them to be taken over or go bankrupt or even see the share price collapse further. :mad: >:D
The main problem is I can get no direct contact with any one sensible at BT who will talk to me, thats the way the weird Openreach / BT setup goes. It was a con/fix to satisfy Ofcom ( ?) I seem to remember rather than help the consumer and break up a monopoly it created an Unreachable Openreach.
BT only comment is that says its nothing to do with them and BT agent/subcontractor type ISPs have no control of upstream or downstream hardware and connections and blame BT.
Latest masochistic speedtests below:-
THINKbroadband
Speed Test Results
Date 13/10/08 20:40:21
Speed Down 600.64 Kbps ( 0.6 Mbps )
Speed Up 368.14 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
IP Address
Link: http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/122392675912149811390.html
SPEEDTEST.NET
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/338339591.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Sorry things aren't looking up for you. :(
The only thing I can suggest is that you move to LLU.
Quote from: Sebby on Oct 14, 2008, 00:35:59
Sorry things aren't looking up for you. :(
The only thing I can suggest is that you move to LLU.
In which case, NewNet would not be a particularly good choice, since they only have LLU in a handful of exchanges.
Indeed. I'm not convinced that another IPStream ISP would help.
Unless it happened to result in a physical move within the exchange, I don't think it would. :(
Hi Sebby/Rik/Jaydub
Yes I guess a move to LLU would help , but currently I am tied to a BT phone deal and all the LLus here are phone and bb deals combined.
That is why it seems sensible to save some cash with a lower cost ISP on the basis there is no point having a Lotus Elise type ISP ( Idnet) when I have a dirt track syle line and exchange to drive on. I can probably use any BT IPstream type ISP and get the same tps as the local loop and exchange is the limitation and has been for ages.
LLus here are Orange and TT with O2 rumoured to be adding gear early 2009 as they seem to have a big push to activate O2 at all larger exchanges around here that dont have Virgin ( there is no cable within 10miles around here).
Idnet have been brilliant , helpful , professional almost to a fault but obviously they have to rely on BT for the Ipstream local to me and on BT gear to connect in to the wider net at ID HQ .
I would like to stay I would be fairly happy to get back to the 2meg rate I had with 2meg broadband nearly three yrs ago. My local loop to the exchange is not good with less than 1km of cable giving 38db of noisy ( crosstalk I suspect with other bb lines in the underground ducts). I suspect the only way to improve this would be to order a new second line then cancel the old one a bit later. They would have to dig up quite a bit of road for this ( at least 100mtrs to the nearest PO cast iron hole in the road) the system still seems to profile around 5meg which is acceptable. This seems a little pointless with the local exchange being so congested we all we seem to have is 500kbps actual tput each.
I will do a few tests tonight.
PS Just been told by my household manager that Simon at IDnet called on my home number this morning he was going to call my mobile but I didnt get an incoming call , guess he is a very busy man. I had my head in a very complicated bit of electronic/hydraulic test gear trying to solve what transpired to be a built in / design fault rather than a simple failure so we had our own problems , the things we do to make F1 cars go quicker and aircraft fly better ( I am very glad I dont have to use aircraft any more).
Thanks for your concern and advice. I will call Simon tomorrow.
Let us know how you get on. :)
You raise a key point that IDNet are, unfortunately, at the mercy of BT.
I have been following this thread with interest and a great deal of sympathy for Hairyman, who has been very reasonable and extremely patient. There but for the grace of the Great Gremlin of the Universe go any one of us, who one day, in spite of the best endeavors of IDNET, might experience the very same problem.
In view of what has been discovered, there seems little chance this is an IDNET issue and a very small chance there is a subtle user equipment or wiring problem. That only leaves exchange congestion or a line problem. Moving to an LLU service may address the former, but not the latter. Hairyman is not free to move to an LLU service at present, and moving to another BT Reseller offers no reassurance there will be a fix because the connection may not physically change and so congestion and line faults might remain.
The speeds being reported are falling below the 500kbps accepted by BT as a fault condition. In the normal course of events such speeds, when logged by the BT Speedtester, must be acted upon by the ISP and by BT. A BT Test 1 below 500kbps should initiate Tests 2 and 3, though these do not always run reliably. The outcome of all the tests should show IDNET and BT who is at fault, and if as we suspect it is a BT problem, then contractual arrangements ought to dictate BT put in a fix. At very least if they refuse, it seems reasonable to demand a release from all contractual obligations with BT in total that prevent Hairyman migrating to an LLU provider. My inclination in addition would be to seek compensation for the months where speeds were largely below 500kbps.
My pitch here is for Hairyman the reasonable consumer of Broadband services, who seems to have been let down badly by the BT Reseller broadband service. Unfair as it may seem, because the evidence points to this not being an IDNET problem, I do urge IDNET to come to the rescue here and do battle with BT Wholesale on behalf of Hairyman. If not, who will? It would also be unfair to raise a formal complaint with the ISPA, but if that helps highlight the issue and the responsibility that BT may carry, then so be it.
Today it is Hairyman; tomorrow it could be any one of IDNET's subscribers. So please lets hear it for Hairyman, Simon and Goliath.
Hi dave
Thanks for the support, your post summarises the situation very well. For two years I thought the slow net was down to my former ISP Eclipse Internet. The introduction of Max made the speeds drop although use of the net rocketed at around the same time. Our exchange supports about 6000 lines I think so is quite small by some standards, hence no LLus came in until recently. My line seems to IPprofile at 5meg which would be fine. I get no/few data errors when the line is noisy just disconnects , crazy for less than 1km of line all underground ( I am only 400mtrs from the exchange as the crow flies) .
The disconnects are few but when they happen I can get dozens in a day. I understand LLus dont use this kind of profiling presumably they have some sort of faster response profiling to set line sync rates etc.
I would be happy with a reliable 2meg rate 4meg would be wonderful , I understand that sometimes the rates will drop as other users do silly stuff like download movies/tv prog and other things they can get for free via other faster better quality media ( satellite/off air or via optical media). I just need to browse and download about 3gig a month at the rate I did three years ago ie the old reliable 2meg service.
I have just read that moneysupermarket have rated ISPs on actual download speeds. Precise below.
"Many broadband providers are still not delivering the speeds they advertise according to the latest moneysupermarket.com quarterly speed test results. Their speed test, which looked at almost 60,000 internet connections and measured average speeds, shows that O2 remained the most consistent performer with an average speed of 4.95Mb on its 8Mb package. Sky took second place with actual speeds of 3.63Mb on its 8Mb deals, while Orange also entered the top three with its 8Mb offering posting an average speed of 3Mb."
I understand this shows that even fast LLus get ( only) 5meg max actual average tps , its unreasonoble to expect much higher speeds with conventional cabling except on peaks.
Ref trying to get out of a BT voice contract I suspect they would say that broadband was nothing to do with them ans I would guess that even if I used BTbroadband as my ISP they would say the same. Maybe I am being over cynical but I doubt it.
BT speedtest tonight showed IPprofile 5000k and sync at 6500k and actual tp at 600k . I have seen less than 500k on a BT test but never a Test 2 or 3 . It often takes over 5 minutes to complete a test and timeouts occur though.
I do thank IDnet for their help and fully understand a move within the BT subcontrator network will give similar rates but hey if its slow any way why use 5star petrol.
Can anyone suggest how I can proceed??
The buisness structure of the internet I access seems completley inaccessible to me the consumer. One provider blames the other even though basically they all own each other as one cannot exist without the other.
PS just tried the moneysupermarket speedtest and got 460kbps downstream and 220k up with a 149ms ping,
this agrees with the BT test tonight and a speedtest.net test .
Quote from: hairyman on Oct 14, 2008, 23:06:53
I have just read that moneysupermarket have rated ISPs on actual download speeds. Precise below.
"Many broadband providers are still not delivering the speeds they advertise according to the latest moneysupermarket.com quarterly speed test results. Their speed test, which looked at almost 60,000 internet connections and measured average speeds, shows that O2 remained the most consistent performer with an average speed of 4.95Mb on its 8Mb package. Sky took second place with actual speeds of 3.63Mb on its 8Mb deals, while Orange also entered the top three with its 8Mb offering posting an average speed of 3Mb."
As per most of these statistics, the information is absolutely meaningless and very misleading. They fail to take into consideration that, regardless of the ISP, there is the issue of sync rate. If everyone on O2 is sync'd at 8Mb, then the results are not good. If everyone on IDNet, for example, is sync'd at 5Mb and gets 5Mb throughput, that's great. See what I mean? Speeds of ISPs just can't be compared in the way that they are doing.
Hi Sebby
Dont forget that if you share your bandwith with others , which we all do , you will always get speedtests way way below sync rates. IDnet stated to me and others have confirmed it, that BT provide 20mbps of bandwith for every 50 customers on an exchange ( I would guess LLus stats are very similar, well at least when customer takeup reaches the expected level) that gives us 400kbps at worst if everyone is on and active and all circuits ( VPs? ) are working. I suspect the real tps during normal evening hours are between 1 and 2 meg for most people living in towns and cities with a nearby exchange.
It would be interesting to know the spread of Sync and IPprofile rates throughout the UK , actual tps are known from various surveys. Most users in England and Wales will be near an exchange as most of us live in towns or cities ( I live in a small town near a larger town near a small city Gloucester.) so I would guess most will sync at a high rate near the Max.
Thanks for yr help , time for some shut eye, goodnight ::)
My speeds are still keeping up and are registering the highest for some time ;D
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/339165647.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Just noticed the comments about interleaving and checked my router, interleaving is set to on. Would it make any difference if this was turned off and would I see any benefit? :D
It might give you a marginal improvement in speed, Den, or it could actually slow things down, depending on your error count. It would reduce latency, but that only really matters to gamers.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7098992.stm
Just located this article ref average tps on bb around the world. Seems the UK gets around 3meg on average. The article is nearly a year old so I would guess the speeds have dropped since then as things like BBCi player has appeared since then and more houses are activated.
I would be very very happy to get 3meg anytime getting when I am awake would be even better.
I have been to busy at work to make calls on this bb problem, but I will call IDnet and ask them to initiate a ISPA deadlock . I do believe IDnet are not too much at fault as they make no claims as to the actual speed they can provide and seemed to have opted out of the Ofcom Guidelines on Broadband speeds as being a BT user themselves they have little control of the service they provide.
What they do have is a working relationship with BT passing some of my / our money onto this company to use their internet connections in and out. I would expect IDnet to pressurise BT to get something sorted. I have no route to even contact BT/Openreach as they are shell companies that only deal with ISPs .
My last call to IDnet resulted in " we can do no more to help and didnt we tell you that last time or didnt you understand" not their exact words but that was the precis of it. Understandably I dont really want to call again and get a load of nothing.
Hoping to borrow a couple of 3G type mobile dongles to try over the next few weeks to see how they perform around here. They are cheaper than Newnet and certainly less than Idnet so if I have good/some coverage that might be a solution and far more versatile as we can take it with us in our holidays out with the caravan etc.
Results Image not loaded BT speedtest
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6464 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 786 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/339555666.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Two speed tests done tonight the thinkbroadband test below.
Date 15/10/08 22:52:45
Speed Down 831.31 Kbps ( 0.8 Mbps )
Speed Up 368.71 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
All seem to agree , the rate is actually quite good at least for me!!
Also if anyone can help ??
I have just done a test downloading largish file from known fast served sites and one gave 98kbytes a sec ie around 800kbps as the above speedtests confirm . I then started a simultaneous large download and that gave 89kbytes a sec speed. Meanwhile the first download carried on at 98kbytes a sec. Giving a total of 187kbytes a sec ie nearly twice the speed of one download at a time. The second download didn't slow the first one at all!!
Where I have seen this before is at work where when the internet and network is busy and when I was at Eclipse Internet where this was called traffic shaping. The downloads were not peer to peer and were direct served files. I suspect BT are doing the same as Eclipse were doing to me and others last year. I guess exchange congestion might have the same result/effect? Dont suspect IDnet do this but it is very funny as in peculiar not the Hah Hah type.
I'm sorry I can't comment on the technicalities, Hairy, but we do know that IDNet do not use traffic shaping within their networks. I'm not aware that BT can traffic shape of their own volition, or that this can be done by them on an individual connection basis, but of course, if I was wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.
I don't really know what else I can say. :(
I would be inclined to complain to Ofcom and/or write an email to the BT CEO. I think they are the only options that may get you somewhere.
So nobody wants to step up to the plate and do battle for Hairyman?
BT seem to have congested Virtual Paths and we let them get away with it? Here we may have a customer of an essentially un-contended ISP completely let down by an over-contended monolith, hoping perhaps that LLU will obviate the need for more VPs.
Anyway, Hairyman, let us know how you get on with 3G. I was in PC World the other day and you seem to get a free computer for a mobile broadband contract. I assumed it was prohibitively expensive. Like you I take my PC out in the van and it costs a fortune connecting via GPRS, so I would be interested in the 3G economics. Sorry I guess this is off topic.
Meantime, IDNET; are you really saying if, like Hairyman, we customers fall foul of BT capacity issues, it's a Pontius Pilate job?
What do you expect IDNet to do, Dave?
Rik, if I were to be adversely impacted by say an exchange broadband capacity issue, I would expect my ISP to do battle with BT and come up with a fix. It is unreasonable to argue that a speed of a few hundred kbps is an acceptable service level. It is reasonable to expect BT to install sufficient capacity to support the wholesale marketing of its broadband services, especially where there no direct competition, and it is reasonable to expect resellers to press hard for it on behalf of the end customer.
Contractual arrangements between BTw and ISPs are a matter for those parties and I do not intend to give advice on them or how best to pursue questionable service levels. But imagine ordering a 2 litre car and finding it had been fitted with a 500cc engine. Imagine being told by the dealer that there was nothing he could do because his supplier refused to help. Would you roll over?
The problem as I see it, Dave, that BT are under no obligation to provide ADSL, nor is there a minimum speed limit if they do. You mentioned 500k earlier, but some lines will not deliver that at best. If the speed falls below the FTR, BT are obliged to look into it, but if they report back to the ISP that they're awaiting an upgrade at the exchange, there's little the ISP can do. It's certainly not ideal, but unless Ofcom sets some sort of service obligation, we are all stuck with what BT choose to deliver. At any time, around the country, there will be congested exchanges or VPs, servicing multiple ISPs. I'm have no idea to what level service standards are detailed in the contract between the ISP and BT, but I'd bet that BT have a big get out clause. :(
Hi Hairyman, All,
As mentioned in your previous posts you are aware of the congestion issue in your exchange. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do to force BT to upgrade their exchange equipment.
What we can do is make them aware that a customer is being affected by the congestion and try to ascertain when the regrade will take place. We logged a call with BT informing them you were being affected but at the time there was no scheduled regrade. In addition to this BT's reporting systems have been struggling the last couple of days to update correctly, further delaying any response regarding an ETA.
BT have finally resolved their reporting issues and informed us a regrade has now been scheduled for your exchange and should complete in approximately 10 working days.
I appreciate when things are not working satisfactorily it can be inconvenient and frustrating to say the least but please do understand IDNet Support Team do absolutely everything in our power to resolve problems quickly and effectively. Unfortunately there are times when there is little we can do to help, as in this case, but that does not mean we do not continue to put pressure on BT on the customers behalf.
The upgrade should improve things for you, if you feel there has been no change after 10 working days please do contact us so we can check the status of the regrade for you.
Regards,
Miriam
Thanks, Miriam. If it goes ahead in 10 days, that's not so bad. :)
Thanks Miriam, fingers crossed for Hairy! :fingers: :fingers:
Hi All
Just got home from work then seeing my mum she has been retired for over thirty years still super well for her age but usually has a few little jobs lined up for me. She lives in a small village over four miles ( probably 7mls by the twisted pair) from her exchange, to get even get clean voice line they had to get a DACS box installed!! So my problems are minimal fortunately she regards the net as technology gone mad, probably a wise view? Also where she lives there is zero mobile coverage unless you have Orange and stand on tip toe in the upstairs front room ( and there is favourable radio propagation) all in all a very peaceful place to live.
Anyway six miles away in "slowsville" we have some news ref Miriam's post below, I called Simon on my way home and he said there should be some good news also posted on this forum. BT have suggested that the local exchange will be upgraded in the next ten days or so. Comment (one) about time after three years, (two) thank heavens and IDnet.
BTs reporting system has been offline for a long time so they ( BT) claim this an excuse. About time BT was properly split up ( let me sell my shares first though , should have sold at £10 a share all those yrs ago but maybe a good time to buy though?) the trouble is Ofcom seem to have become the telecoms companies trade union rather than our service protector.
Speedtest tonight reported 800kbps so not much change there.
I will observe and report back.
DaveJ I will investigate 3G dongles they can be got from £100 with a years worth of download of 20Gb included on some deals. Like voice mobiles you need to pick the one that works well where you live unless you live in a city or near a trunk road where the four providers all give fair coverage. 3 / Orange ( the same company ) seem to have the best deals most of the time. For the £200 plus I pay for my landline bb I think you can get 50Gb a year download on 3G. Speeds seem to be around old broadband levels (512k) upwards in a fair to good coverage area. Anyway I will see what I can borrow.
Ref BT they make no promises ref actual speeds I see IDnet get 4460k average tps speeds on a nationwide test on Speedtest.net which against the Uk average of 4203kbps showing the difference between very good ISP and an average one is small the main difference is the service and back up.
Interestingly BT shows as 3400k for my exchange and 3000k average for my county. Not sure how that gives me and others less than 1000kbps. I know these are averages but they are based on actual real world throughputs , not on geek stuff like IPprofiles and sync rates which are all artificial figures not real, actual tps measure a providers( ISP plus network plus local loop) actual overall real world service levels. Its no good having a fast ISP on a slow connection or a poor ISP on a cable or ADSL 2 type line. The judgement based is the actual overall rate and of course the bottom line the price of each along with less measurable things like service desk effectiveness.
Thanks to all for the help I will keep you informed and would value your further advice. I will only believe BT is upgrading the exchange when my rates get nearer to the county average of 3000kbps for BT based ISPs. But if they do after 3years of this I will thank them as well.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/340060911.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Best of luck. :fingers:
Hairyman, just to let you know, 3 and Orange are different companies. 3 currently have peering agreement with T-Mobile, between them, they have formed MBNL www.mbnl.co.uk to provide mobile broadband coverage across the country.
4 days a week I work in Ericsson's Reading office supporting 3, and 1 day a week supporting MBNL in Amersham.
Hi Glenn
I only know that Carphone Warehouse told me whilst I was investigating 3G coverage that 3 handed over to Orange and vice versa when Data/voice coverage was patchy with one. So a 3 phone would use Orange when 3 coverage was poor etc. Glad to hear someone uses T-mobile we were only talking about mobile phone networks at a works meeting and no one had a T - mobile or Virgin phone out of over thirty present.
MBNL/3/Tmobile sounds a bit like Openreach and BT being seperate companies, and does anyone really think they are? Still if all mobile providers shared hardware as happens elsewhere in the world it might reduce the number of base station masts littering our countryside. British Rail and the Police are also adding their own masts to the mix!!
Regards Hairy
Lets hope BT's proposed upgrade will get a better speed for Hairyman. Were I in his position I would be delighted with Miriam's response in behalf of IDNET.
I have been following this thread with great interest because I was looking for reassurance that battle would be done on behalf of the customer. Anyone of us could experience a similar problem and we need an ISP that is not prepared to roll over. Miriam's post shows that IDNET is not content to give up in these circumstances. Moreover, sharing the facts of Hairyman's case is a very brave thing to do and it certainly builds confidence in the company. As we have seen in the past when problems have arisen, IDNET seems happy to keep us informed and more than able to deliver solutions.
As far as BT will let them. ;)
What counts for me, Rik, is did IDNET do battle on behalf of the customer. I think the answer is a very definite yes and I will be surprised if BT do not make some progress. Their infrastructure is creaking, but they are not alone. Many ISPs are too and it is very, very easy to blame BT for that.
I thought Miriam's post struck a more positive tone and demonstrated any ability to work with BT and develop solutions. If I was BT reading this thread I would be pleased with the line IDNET has taken and more inclined to help in the future, not least because it seems IDNET keeps its own house in good order.
I am beginning to think the art of a good ISP is hand holding customers on one side and BT on the other. So far I do not think IDNET make a bad fist of it. But then I am 2km from the exchange, enjoying 6.7Mbps all the time and do not have a broadband care in the world. Now that really is tempting fate.
I agree with you, Dave. IDNet have worked hard to build a relationship with BT which allows them to get things done where other ISPs might struggle, if they could be bothered to take up the cudgels in the first place. It's that kind of service that we pay a premium price for.
Hi All
Thanks to all for the support , thanks to Idnet for all their work for me and us all. I will reserve thanks to BT until I get a fair speed on my connection. If I could average the county average for BT Ipstream users of 3meg ish that would be great.
Extra thanks will go to all when I see a change. Don't forget I have been on this low rate of below a 1000kbps for about three years with no one giving any productive help until now or even giving an explanation (other than nothing can be done that is).
I will monitor the speeds ,if they improve I will then work on the line problem with BT voice this gives random disconnects in batches at a time then none for days weeks, they are weather related and get worse after several days of dry weather .
Sounds like a bat joint somewhere, Hairy. Whether they will spend the time required to locate it is another matter, of course.
Quote from: Rik on Oct 18, 2008, 09:33:08
Sounds like a bat joint somewhere, Hairy. Whether they will spend the time required to locate it is another matter, of course.
So that will be in a dark place somewhere ;D
:rofl:
Well hung... ;)
Die Fledermaus. ;D
:lol:
Who is this well hung bat on cannabis. :D
Or
Maybe BT need a bat detector to find my skunk? ::)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/341292492.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Speedtest at 0824 Sunday morning lets see what happens over the next 8 days
Quote from: hairyman on Oct 18, 2008, 20:57:03
Who is this well hung bat on cannabis. :D
Do you want the long version or the short one? ;D
Thinkbroadband test
Speed Test Results
Date 21/10/08 21:08:45
Speed Down 457.14 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Speed Up 367.33 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/342671668.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Hi All
Only 7 days until BT promised to update my exchange , looks like they have taken on a shed load of new customers all downloading TV as they are nearly the lowest I have seen, ever. Even slower than when Broadband was enabled here and I was one of the first customers about 5.5yrs ago.
Two speedtests above number one from Thinkbroadband the other speedtest.net. They broadly agree.
I see in other forum threads that speedtest.net may be inaccurate all I can say is that at my fairly slow rates they report similar results to thinkbroadband or BT . This is doing one after the other within a few minutes of each other.
Maybe at higher rates things differ? The tests from think and speedtest.net seem to take about the same time. Also Think have a section where you can simply download various files up to one gig in size and see what your download monitor sees or Netmeter type indicator picks up.
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/download.html
I am wondering how slow my connection will go until BT slam in a DSLAM within 7 days?
I think it's anyone's guess. All you can do is sit tight, I'm afraid.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/343865620.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Only 5 days to go until promised BT upgrading the exchange here. Speed still sub one meg even now at 22.30 hrs , they were below 400kbps at 1900hrs .
Rates do improve in the small hours but sadly I dont want to browse the net then as I must get some sleep on my bat connection which I am well hung from ( see previous posts for explanation or further confusion).
Thinkbroadband test as below-
Date 23/10/08 22:20:21
Speed Down 647.71 Kbps ( 0.6 Mbps )
Speed Up 374.97 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
I hope to Christ this works, after all the build up, Hairy! ;D
:fingers:
So you dint like the dramatic style the long slow build up etc!? :whome:
I think my IPprofile has dropped way down again even though I have had the router off to save power etc. I have only seen 4 disconnects in two weeks at my end though. :comp:
I wont hold anyone to blame if it doesn't improve ( except those lying BT folk, just look at their share price £10 each eight yrs ago down to bu**er all now, which shows how not to manage a business more especially how to demotivate staff). :dig:
Thanks all
I hate to bring bad news but my exchange was supposed to be upgraded. IDNet told me on the 8th October that it would happen in the next two weeks.. and it hasn't happened yet. Speed at 8 this morning was 6200 and now at 2 it's 300. So don't be disappointed if it doesn't actually happen. :'(
BT are great at delivering just now, Ann. We're all watching November 4 with bated breath.
Hi Ann
I will come as no suprise if my evening rates stick at sub 1meg rates, I am forever hopefull but I am fairly sure that BT have no concept of the truth as we see it ( along with 95% of other UK businesses might I controversially say).
:notfair:
Best of luck if yr exchange is still slow, mine runs at 500kbps during weekday evenings even though it is only 400metres away from here!! Weekends its better than weekdays or weekevenings strangely enough must be some business user flooding the system ?
Syncs currently at 6700k and download test gave 890k a few minutes ago but I got a speedtest at 2700k this morning ( Saturday) . These are typical figures for a Saturday .
Lets see what happens with IDnets new BT link the day before Guy Fawkes night. :dig:
Did I already ask you about LLU options at your exchange? I think I did, but I do lose track. :P
IIRC, Hairy is tied into BT for the line.
Ah, thanks. :)
Quote from: Rik on Oct 26, 2008, 09:54:04
IIRC, Hairy is tied into BT for the line.
Perhaps that's been the problem all along - hair on the line? :)x :out:
:rofl:
Quote from: Simon on Oct 26, 2008, 12:01:26
Perhaps that's been the problem all along - hair on the line? :)x :out:
Makes a change from leaves. ;)
Or drunks. Or sheep. Or a broken down train. All of which I've had recently :rant2:
Have you moved to Wales then Lance?... ;) :out:
:rofl: :thumb:
I can understand about "having" sheep and drunks but with trains thats disgusting even worse still with a broken down one :nono:
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/345817627.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
No real improvement yet see above. Tried as BT speedtest but it "froze up" after entering the username section.
Something has happened though, as my router now syncs at 7616kbps with downstream SNRs varying about 8db whereas before it sat at 6500kbps at 12db SNR . I suspect it will drop to the lower rate soon when noise/crosstalk pops up on the line.
Maybe my profile has been reset if new hardware is installed? :basil:
Line attns in both directions have not changed. If new exchange hardware has caused the reprofiling the bottleneck is still there or elsewhere.
Maybe they have simply removed the old exchange box that had "missing VPs" with one of better spec rather than uprate the exchange properly at all.
Maybe they have done nothing yet or never will ? :fingers:
It's possible that the target SNRM has been reduced to 9dB as things have been stable. It's difficult to say whether the work has even gone ahead.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/347584351.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Still no improvement in speed , thats no suprise. The BT speedtest site locks up repeatedly during the authentication process I guess its busy ( a bit like BT bl**dy exchange!!)
BT said the exchange would be upgraded within ten days I think that is probably up.
Congestion seems as bad as ever , lets see what happens over the weekend as I always seem to get appalling rate weekday daytimes with a slight improvement in the evenings but somewhat better rates Friday evening to Monday morning.
Overall rates are now about half what they were with Eclipse Internet a year ago an ISP not noted for speed.
Looking at the stats it seems the speed variation from best to worst BT based ISP is very small mostly its down to the local infrastructure.
:cheers:
Never mind beating the BBC up about J.Ross and Master Brand I think they should be shot over the BBCi Player. The infrastructure cannot cope with streaming of any serious sort unless its all fibre even then think how often the server farms will doubling in size!!
I just don't know what more you can do. You can go to another ISP, but I really don't believe the problems lie with IDNet, so it'll be the same. And, as far as I remember, you don't have any LLU options. :(
Sebby
I will give it a few days and see what happens.
Yes I am in a BT phone deal until next year, so I will see what I can do to not waste cash on a good ISP like Idnet when the system is powered by the BT three legged donkey. Other BT isps probably are worse than Idnet but with my local exchange in line it seems anyone will do.
They have TT and Orange on the exchange with O2 rumoured to be adding on a full speed service next year. Maybe go with them as they are very good on the neighbouring exchange and I have have a O2 mobile.
Thanks for yr help.
If O2 come to your exchange, make the move.
Results Image not loaded
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 7616 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1146 kbps
:cheers2:
Hi All
Managed to squeeze a test out of BT tonight. The sync rate is OK the SNRmargin from the router interface varies sec by sec from 5db to 9db and it has been that way for about 5days with no disconnects. It has been cold and wet , rain always seems to prevent dropouts to the exchange. I has seen into the ducts in the High Street during wet spells when they are down playing with the cables and they have to pump it out every time. A dry spell of over maybe a week brings on disconnects.
Anyway the IPprofile is good at 6500kbps I have never seen it higher. The throughput is not bad for me at 1146kbps probably near the best I have had from a BT test. Idnet said BT do their calculations on capacity based on 20mbps per 50connections ie 400k each on average. I suppose I could be thankful that I have nearly 3 times my share!! or seek to get nearer the 2300kbps that IPstream gives to the average home user!!
I don't think BT have done any work on the exchange broadband equipment as these rates are fairly standard for the weekend . Last night they were in the 600s or lower.
Cest la vie ici BT.
:flamethrower:
Speed Test Results
Date 31/10/08 23:21:52
Speed Down 760.29 Kbps ( 0.7 Mbps )
Speed Up 368.17 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
Tried a Thinkbroadband test as well the sub 1meg is more typical of throughputs I have.
Router shows no errors or lost packets etc.
What's amazing is that you have maximum sync (for an interleaved line), a decent SNRM, yet a dreadful throughput. I just find it so bizarre that speeds always seem to be the same. I wonder what they'd be like at, say, 4am...
If I could run a test for Hairy, I would. ;)
:lol:
It just strikes me as bizarre that speeds are always terrible. If it was congestion, I wouldn't expect it to be a constant issue.
I know, Seb, it really doesn't seem to be a simple congested VP case. I half wonder whether BT don't have enough backhaul at the exchange?
Yep, something like that would make a lot more sense.
I once did a test in the early hours of the morning ( usually I have to sleep) when we were watching the Chinese FI GP I think. The speeds did exceed 2meg then one test was 3.something meg I remember.
Whats the point in having great speeds at times one is asleep and doesnt need the internet. Except if you are ripping off music, movies or games that is?
I do speedtests when I as a working man ( wake at 6am get to work 7.30am get home 5pm to 6pm etc) use the net and almost always it is less than 1meg , usually 600k ish. I have done tests in the working weekdays and speeds seem worse than evenings , the best speeds are usually about nowish ie during the weekends when I may get over a meg for a lot of the time. ( only just over a meg mind you).
Don't know why the daytime rates are so slow , business use ? Our MP lives 400yds away maybe he runs the country from home. We do have a large industrial estate bordering the town but with several international companies ( oil exploration, huge dairy, and a renowned machine tool company) I think they would have their own fibre but maybe they hook into BT ?
Where I work which is some way away on a different exchange my colleague's who mostly live nearby get much faster speeds in the evenings again there is no cable nearby just BT and a few LLus. At work we get a minimum rate per PC of 1meg often more ( over 300 PCs on the network).
Locally in the next town ( adjoining) they have many LLus ( O2 ,Sky , Orange, TT, again no cable ) but reported average speeds seem nearer 4meg. A pal on a £7.50 a month O2 deal on 8meg gets 6meg tps plus in the evening weekdays and he lives way out in the sticks on a farm.
I see most mobile bb seems faster than my rates at less cost. Personally I cant see how anyone can justify me paying £18 for a service of about the same speed that I had in early 2003 when I first got 512k bb when the exchange was enabled.
The most frustrating thing is I have no one to complain to. IDnet only provide their Letchworth office and connection to Lonap etc they provide nothing locally to me where I am being told the problem is. Last year Eclipse Internet gave me a internet link that was averaging over twice my current speeds and they used heavy traffic shaping and throttled ordinary browsing when busy.
Would asking for a deadlock letter and escalate it to the ombudsman service be doing no more than satisfying/feeding my frustrations??
I get the same results on an alternative spare router and on the other PC or various laptops I have access to. This PC is dual boot XP with Win98se for nostalgia and better speed ( Vista is even sloower than XP ) but broadband speeds seem similar after a change of OS .
Please Please can O2 come to the exchange next year!! Sorry IDnet you are great but a business plan based on BT providing a second grade / third world local loop doesn't look too great from this end?
About this backhaul I assume this is the exchange to backbone bit!! Show me where it is and I will get my hacksaw out! :flamethrower:
The only reason I asked about the speeds in the early hours of the morning was to gauge whether the issue really is down to congestion - and as you achieve 2/3Mb, I think it's fair to say that it is.
I don't believe there is anything more you can do. I don't believe that IDNet would provide a deadlock letter. Deadlock letters are typically used where there is a dispute that cannot be resolved, but this isn't the case - there is a problem outside of IDNet's network that they have no control over.
Ultimately, your options are to move to another ISP (but it's questionable whether that would make any difference), or sit tight.
You could try contacting the CEO of BT, Hairy. With the previous incumbent, that was known to work wonders.
I'm thinking that my problems are due to this being a university town. This year we've got far more students than ever before and my problems started just as term was starting. My speed is good when the stus are asleep in the mornings, as soon as they get up at midday it goes down the toilet. My theory will be proven if things improve during the Christmas vacation... although it would be nice to think that they could fix it before that. :fingers:
It's a distinct possibility, Ann. I'm convinced that BT are neglecting the existing network as they spend money on the 21CN/WBC push, Sadly, the latter still seems to be subject to delays on the delays. :(
If only IDNet were big enough to have LLU, but still keeping the personal touch.
Absolutely, Lance. It's so unfortunate that ISPs have to be held back by the likes of BT, especially in the current situation where they are not investing in their network due to 21CN/WBC.
Quote from: Lance on Nov 02, 2008, 13:51:21
If only IDNet were big enough to have LLU, but still keeping the personal touch.
One day... :)
Date 04/11/08 17:24:30
Speed Down 644.94 Kbps ( 0.6 Mbps )
Speed Up 365.61 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
Hi All
No real improvement as you can see the speeds remain at 650kb this seems to be managed speed as it is very constant , the download varies up above this level at the start then goes below then levels off at this speed. It is very similar to the three terminal software and hardware controllers I deal with at work where a demand at a certain level ( liquid flow, pressure etc) is called for and the equipment heads to that level by monitoring the actual requirement and adjusting a pump speed or valve to achieve this. Feedback in the system is set to do this in a conrolled fashion.
I assume congestion is managed by BT software just like the ISP shaping at other providers. I just wonder why a fairly small town like mine ( about 1000 dwellings ) has such a problem??
What speeds do you guys get during normal hours , like now in a weekday evening . BT I am told provide 400kbps each line ( or rather 20meg for every 50 ) on a shared basis .The average of many UK speedtests seems to indicate between 2 and 3 meg for BT based ISPs depending where in England and Wales you are.
Ann
I can appreciate your University problem as I know the daytime and evening rates here may be slowed by the large private school we have in town , they have mainly overseas students ( 11 to 18 yrs old) living in etc. I heard they had a fibre link put in direct to the exchange and they also have sat links for high speed use.
It must be very hard for independent ISPs that are forced to use a competitors equipment as they a fully dependant on someone else for their performance and pricing. I would imagine we will mostly just have the big boys ISPwise left after this credit crunch/recession.
But at the end of the day I am provided with a service by IDnet not BT so they are responsible for the performance via their commercial involvement with BT/Openreach or whatever they call themselves now.
Hi Hairy
I get a consistent 2800k from a 3000k profile at almost any time, 382k up.
hairy, on my high nm line, 60db, I get around a download speed around 1.8Mbs more or less constantly on a 2300kbs connection
Quote from: hairyman on Nov 04, 2008, 18:06:44
I just wonder why a fairly small town like mine ( about 1000 dwellings ) has such a problem??
It may well be piggy-backing off a larger exchange nearby.
Quote from: Rik on Nov 04, 2008, 18:17:13
It may well be piggy-backing off a larger exchange nearby.
Hi Rik
That could be the case the neighbouring town ( same dialling code ) is almost joined up to us the exchange there has all the major LLus and some of the smaller ones. My town exchange is physically quite a large building about the size of a 6/7 bedroomed bungalow and probably built in the 60/70s. It supports the surrounding villages as well I think there are about 5000 lines in all ( from memory of looking at an online checker) . I would expect broadband connections and usage would be below normal levels around here as in general the population out of town is above average in age with lots old retired and elderly. The town itself is a small working town that only dropped its parish council status a few years ago when it voted to upgrade to a town.
What both you and Glen get on throughput is what others at work say they get ie around 50 to 75% of your sync rates fairly reliably. My mothers neighbours get over 2 meg tp on a long 6km line to their small exchange.
What does puzzle me is a pal of mine ( well his son really) gets 3meg tp in the evening on my exchange over what must be a line over 4km long ( I am 400mtrs line of site / 1.1km by main road rout to the same exchange) . My line has 38db loss , high for less than 1km . Currently sync at 7600k interleaved with profile of 6500k .
My speeds are nearly always abysmal weekday days and evenings and improve a bit ( 2 to 2.5 times faster) if I am lucky at weekends.
Still its all, good fun !!?? :bow:
Quote from: Rik on Nov 02, 2008, 10:43:19
You could try contacting the CEO of BT, Hairy. With the previous incumbent, that was known to work wonders.
Rik et al
Where would I get his email address or would a letter be better??
I would be happy to send either and would love to see which type of standard reply I got initially.
I might ask if they could release me from my phone tie in if improving the bb is not possible? I could then then go to a cheap combined comms package ( LLu or BT type)
:dig:
Ian Livingston
ian.livingston @ bt.com
(Watch out for the space - I might dislike BT, but I don't wish spam on anyone!)
Cheers for that.. I've just sent an email.
... and got the below reply which I have forwarded to IDNet..
"I am sorry you are experiencing lower speeds. I don't know if this is anything to do with the network. However, this is something your ISP should handle on your behalf. Its what you pay them to do. They should be able to identify the type of issue, deal with it themselves or raise with our wholesale division.
Ian"
A straightforward handoff. I wonder how he would respond to an email from IDNet themselves?
Not the kind of reply that a customer would have received from his predecessor .. >:(
I had noticed the change in style, can't say I'm too surprised though, In. :(
Quote from: Inactive on Nov 05, 2008, 12:18:12
Not the kind of reply that a customer would have received from his predecessor .. >:(
You're right there, In. Very disappointing. He obviously doesn't realise that when you go through your ISP, who try and get BT to do something, they take no notice. :(
Hi
Just sent Mister Livingston an email , I composed it so he cannot send me a reply like Ann got (well I suppose he could if he didn't read my email at all?).
Lets see what his PAs office sends me in another standard reply. I will post both my email and his reply , if and when when he replies.
:hide2: :hiding:
Good luck. :fingers:
Reply rec within 20 minutes of my mail.
I feel like I have been told off for "telling tales"!!
Second half is as per Ann's reply.First half may be half true as I agree that I pay IDnet to do a job for me and provide a service but BT supply all their in and outs as I understand it.
I must get back to IDnet again or MAC away and try elsewhere for less cash! I do like ID so lets persevere.
will ask for a deadlock letter to see if that prompts further contact of BT Wholesale by IDnet.
21CN is programmed for 2011/12 around here. I don't think I can wait another three years.
It seems BT want me as a customer of thirty plus years standing to go elsewhere. I can see why their share price was £1.25 yesterday and over £10.00 about 8 years ago. Think we got ours at about a quid each.
Hope you are all well. Thanks for being there.
Hairyperson
:rant2:
"IANS" REPLY
I am sorry about your concerns but your ISP are wrong to say they have
reached a dead end. They have industry standard escalation routes that
can establish whether the issue is the network and if so, a response
from their wholesaler, BT Wholesale. This is what you pay them to do -
they are your service provider and service providers do not like BT
interfering in the relationship between them and their customers. I
would go back to them and ask them to use their escalation routes as you
have done with me. This is exactly what BT Retail should do for their
customers.
Ian
Above reply rec 20:46hrs my mail sent 20:26 hard working man!
Sent: 05 November 2008 20:26
To: Livingston,I,Ian,CGEC R
Subject: Slow internet
Dear Mr Livingston
I have suffered with slow internet for nearly three years, both the ISPs
that I have used in this time have traced the problem to your
infrastructure at my exchange in xxxxx sssss . They have
been told this by your wholesale division. The typical rates I get are
650kbps on actual throughputs whereas I sync with the exchange which is
only 400 yards away, at nearly 8000kbps . My ISP IDnet was told by BT
Wholesale the exchange was very heavily congested and would be upgraded
within ten days, this was nearly three week ago now. There has been no
improvement.
My current and previous ISPs both have done their best but have drawn a
blank against your monolithic group. My ISPs have even suggested the only
way to improve matters would be to move away from your network and away
hence from them as well.
This has gone on for a very long time with two providers using your
IPstream product. I have reached a point where my internet speeds are
little better than the 512kbps I first got in 2003 when broadband at my
exchange was first enabled. It is not possible to use the connection for
anything other than simple web browsing due to its erratic congested
nature even this halts many times an hour . I therefore cannot use video
streaming, VOIP, or sites like U Tube. My equipment has all been
checked and or changed to eliminate any problems here. I get a good
solid sync with the exchange.
Could I therefore ask you to pass this on to someone able to confirm
what is wrong with your system and what action might be possible. My ISP
has reached a dead end ( their words) and I consider them one of the
best available. Others on BT IPstream seem to routinely get much faster
speeds on nearby exchanges.
Yours AKA HAIRY
PS I do use BT for phonecalls and have done so for over thirty years I am also
a modest BT shareholder ( isn't your share price poor right now, a good time to buy?).
I really don't like this guy. He's failing to appreciate that whilst there are procedures in place, BT are so useless that ISPs are unable to actually get anything sorted. :mad:
Typical bureaucrat, I'm afraid. Ben would have kicked someone to take a look.
I suspect his feeling is why should he put himself out to assist a rival ISP. BT has never had a good relationship with other companies. I remember back in the days when the first companies were trying to start up calls and access phone services, BT did all it could to sabotage their efforts by taking weeks and weeks to transfer customers.
For me, I'll give it a while until I lose patience and then go off and find a cheaper ISP. No point in my paying 25 quid a month when I can get an equally cr*p connection for less than half the price.
Thing is, Ann, he's also dealing with a customer in IDNet. The real problem is the almost monopolistic position of BT Wholesale.
Well after a bit of nagging, I've now had a response from the Manaaging Director of BT Wholesale but everyone seems to be saying that IDNet are not doing all they could. They talk of escalating whatever that actually means in practise, but they say they are going to ensure I will get information via the correct route, meaning I suspect that it's up to IDNet to keep me informed.
And now I'm wondering if IDNet know more than they are telling me. I mean if they really know that nothing will happen for 6 months or so, then they know I will walk, so are they just stringing me along month to month? I'm not impressed. They've reminded me that it takes time and planning to update the exchange which kind of implies that they must have planned it all out and know exactly when it's going to happen so why will nobody tell me?
Maybe Bt need breaking up properly as opposed to the somewhat masonic arrangement of the Openreach / BT line split up where BT becomes a customer of Opereach or is it vice versa .
The trouble is if you go to far you get a situation like the power and gas companies where they A) fix prices and B) don't invest in new plant and C) send their profits back to France/US/German owners.
Or like the Post Office/Royal Mail situation where branches are closing down and the profitable mail is being handed over to private customers and the universal price for mail delivery seems set to either dissappear or go up to over £1 at todays rates.
I cant see BT or indeed anyone else supplying modern bb links to small villages etc unless subsidised like in Scotland and I think Wales.
Ann -- like you why pay for a top ISP like IDnet when the system is traffic managed by BTs congestion especially when for £12 I can get a fair service elsewhere, and BT still get their cash , so they are not worried.
Ann again-- Just seen your last post and I agree that I feel the truth is congested just like my internet. Honesty in business seems to have gone these days as personally I can accept an "I dont know, or I will find out or I dont suppose they will tell us that" type of answer but not a sales pitch to keep one hanging on.
Dear Anne and hairyman
We have escalated both of your cases as far up as we are able to. This is where we are left that there is no fault with your lines nor your equipment. BT have conceded that your Exchanges are congested. They have provided their timescales for Exchange upgrades. When these dates are missed they simply provide new dates. When we push for further information we are told that the information is "commercially sensitive". We do not embellish the information that we receive, we pass it on to you verbatim. We do not believe in making up stories in the hope that we might say whatever you might be wanting to hear. We tell it as it is and I am sorry that this is not making your life any easier.
regards
Simon
Thanks for that, Simon. :)
Thanks. I know I need some patience.. I'll see if I can find some from somewhere.
Simon,
Any chance of you emailing Ian directly mentioning the two recent cases and giving your imput that you can't escalate any further?
Hi Lance Ann and Simon
Simon-- Thanks for the telephone chat today sorry to hear that IDnet can do no more for us.
I spoke to Otelo today they cannot help with "commercially sensitive matters" like exchange upgrades.
Also spoke to A nice South African chap at Ofcom likewise they cannot help , he suggested I write to my MP , I know the guy and he is helpful also as he lives here in my small town only the other side of the High Street and uses the same exchange he may be able to pull a few levers? Ofcom did register the call as a complaint which will be checked against other data on my exchange. They are hoping for a new white paper soon which will break up the monopoly of cities getting the best service and rolling out new fibre in the countryside first rather than simply duplicating Virgins fibre and systems in the easy pickings of large cities. Ofcom also said going LLu would help as they could see my exchange had Orange and TT. They agreed with me that for low downloaders like me having no landline and going fully mobile is also becoming increasingly common and viable. He also said stats for exchange congestion complaints are available at cost under freedom of information legislation.
Interesting if there are four of more providers on an exchange Ofcom etc fully wash their hand of the job as "competition" is deemed to be the regulator then.
As I am tied into a BT phone deal, which both of the above said i would be unlikely to be released from, as all divisions of BT are commercially separate and not responsible for each others service ( it would make no difference even if I was a BT Broadband customer). Basically we are stitched up in a commercial monopoly.
I would personally recommend anyone getting poor speeds from BT ipstream not to bother changing ISPs ( a waste of time as there are not any really bad ones, what you do get with better ISPs are nicer people on the support lines and they will be UK based. I will transfer to an LLu as soon as I can.
Simon --- like Lance could you try again with BT for Ann and me . I will email Ian Liverthingy at BT to say you have stated that you have reached a dead end and ask him what these further steps are that he mentioned to me?. At least I will see what his little helpers on the email come up with.
Its a Friday so welcome to the weekend.
I might even save money and drop the internet completely it might even be fun without it? Having had bb for over five years and dialup for 7 yrs before that and packet data transmission vis amateur radio since Sinclair ZX days maybe life would change without bb?? Thought for the day maybe?? It might even give me time to do some more Scottish Munros or polish of Mt Blanc next year.
Quote from: hairyman on Nov 07, 2008, 15:08:01
Basically we are stitched up in a commercial monopoly.
That's the sad truth of it, Hairy, and in a bit of it which has virtually no regulation.
Well Stephen, the General Manager of BT Wholesale who phoned me said that Ian Liverthingy gets frustrated when people just blame BT. I think he was sort of apologising for his irritated email response.
Right, so what am I bid for Stephen's mobile phone number then?
Quote from: Ann on Nov 07, 2008, 22:43:57
Well Stephen, the General Manager of BT Wholesale who phoned me said that Ian Liverthingy gets frustrated when people just blame BT.
We know the feeling! ;D
LOL yeah but I looked up my mate Ian Liverthingy http://people.forbes.com/profile/ian-livingston/13963 ..... £554,000 salary and £404,000 bonus.. he must be gutted to spend two minutes telling me to piss off.. I feel for him..
That was his last job.. this year he got 3.35 million http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/2790643/BT's-new-boss-Ian-Livingston-could-earn-andpound6.8m-in-first-year.html
ROFL!
If you get paid the big bucks, you're there to listen, imo. :)
Hi All
Had a few emails and phone calls so will put them in order below. A few bits I have ** out to hide identities.
Ian
Many thanks for your concern and advice to escalate matters further. I do
realise I pay my ISP to do this service but all they get from your
organisation is that these matters are commercially sensitive and cannot be
discussed and no accurate or indeed any dates for solving the problem can
given.
Could you or your department let me know what these steps are that an ISP
can do are. Today my ISP have again stated again they can take it no further
as they have no control over your infrastructure viz my exchange and no
escalation steps are available. No dates can be given for an upgrade and
21CN is at least four years away as far as I can see for us here, even
this enablement has drifted back recently.
I will ask ** *** my MP who lives in this town and uses the same exchange
as me to ask a few questions as there appears to be no regulatory body
available on this type of problem as both Otelo and Ofcom seem unable to
help.
Regards **** ( hairyperson)
Reply from Ian L
Could you let me know who it was escalated to in BT who gave the answer
that it was commercially sensitive. I will then investigate.
Ian
Comment -- seems he was more concerned in internal ( BT ) discipline than my problem??
My reply--
Ian
Many thanks for yr prompt reply . I have forwarded your request for info on
my ISP. I am not sure if they can reply over the weekend.
I can assure you the "commercially sensitive" reply was used to my ISP and
reported to me. This would seem to be in common practice by your Wholesale
engineering desks. This was subsequently confirmed to me by two lengthy
conversations I had today with both Otelo and Ofcom, their help desks said
BT using "commercially sensitive reasons" for not giving info as to
exchange updates and repairs is in widespread use in feedback to them.
My previous ISP Eclipse Internet also reported to me that BT were using
commercially sensitive type stalls back in 2006/7 when my net speeds
bottomed out then.
You say you can "then investigate" by that I hope you mean into your
congestion problem at the **** **** exchange. Surely your internal
tracking system would show what tests have been done when and by whom?
I am not sure if my ISP will reply direct to you or otherwise. Either way I
will email again.
Many thanks for your time.
Hairy Person
MY Email to Idnet to keep them informed and to pass on the baton?
**** at IDnet
I emailed Ian Livingston of BT as below and got this reply at 16:11 hrs today Friday 7 Nov, not sure if we/I have made any progress or are about to fall into some sort of trap.
He asks for info as below I don't want to "drop your BT contact in the deep do do" or likewise do so myself. Ian L says "I will then investigate" this may be to look into my problem or maybe something more sinister ref his lower echelons?
To be fair in both my conversations with Otelo and Ofcom today both said BT saying exchange work being commercially sensitive was a stock reply they heard many times from users and providers so it seems likely BT wholesale use it in their "training song book".
Don't know if you can help with reply to Mr L either directly or via me ( as I initiated the Mr L mails, I assume his office staff answer these or am I speaking to a nom de plume?
Thanks for all your help. Meanwhile I will send him a holding type email.
Hairyman
Emails to and from BTs Ian L were copied to Idnet. These are as per previous posts on this forum thread ."Holding email" email mentioned is my second outgoing one on this post.
On Sat morning at approx I got a tele call from Stephen Hunt of BT ( Gen Manager of Wholesale ) . He said the slow connection issue would be escalated to his team in Manchester. Mostly he was concerned about who at BT was mentioning "commercially sensitive" to me as that was very wrong, I said both my current and previous ISP ( Eclipse Internet) told me that this was the reply from BT and that both Otelo and Ofcom had said BT used this routinely in reports to them during my telecons with them today. Otelo said it cannot act on any commercial sensitive matter only poor service ( not speed ) or bills etc.
I also said I was mainly concerned with the speed issue rather than internal training or regulatory matters.
Still I left Mr Hunt who was calling from home to rescue his children ( small sounding ) from climbing into the loft. He said the Escalation Team would report back , I suggested it should go back via Idnet. Stephen Hunt sent me his contact details via email.
Question??? are these Escalations cost chargeable to someone not me I know as I have not been asked to authorise anything. If ISPs have to pay if they prove unsuccessful maybe that is why they don't often happen or are not requested??
Today ( Monday 10 Nov) the BT Escalation team sent a fairly unhelpful email to Idnet who posted it onto me. Below--
I have completed my investigations into this High Level Escalation and regret to inform you that there is currently no spare capacity to increase the bandwidth on this VP above that which was recently completed on 22nd October. At this present time I am unable to advise you when we may be in a position to increase it though as and when spare bandwidth becomes available it will be progressed as necessary. Could you please advise your customer Mr ****,
Kind Regards
Les ******
High Level Escalations Team Member
BT Broadband Assurance | BT Wholesale
Hope some of this makes sense and is in some sort of order.
Humbly slightly confused disappointed but not surprised.
yours
the Hairyone
PS Don't see any improvement in the rate as of 22 Oct that the Escalation team mentioned. I will test and report back. I suspect they have just replaced faulty gear at the exchange as "missing VPs " were mentioned by exchange info sites a few months ago. Probably they have now got the original spec of the exchange back to normal standard rather than the "within spec" but below ideal mentioned before.
Ref the salaries mentioned by Anns post from news on the net.
I find it hard to understand how anyone in a employed position is worth around a 100 times the national average wage. I can fully understand someone who is risking their own capital by running their own business ( majority shareholder basis) is worth this much and more but not any employee. Anyone paid that much should be good enough to run their own business.
Still I am not jealous or envious, at least I dont have to make business calls on a Sat morning ( anymore ) or have to email one or two of 5 million irate customers between counting my share issue.
Hairyman
QuoteI have completed my investigations into this High Level Escalation and regret to inform you that there is currently no spare capacity to increase the bandwidth on this VP above that which was recently completed on 22nd October. At this present time I am unable to advise you when we may be in a position to increase it though as and when spare bandwidth becomes available it will be progressed as necessary.
Exactly what IDNet got told in the first place, Hairy. No help to man nor beast. >:(
Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
I think we have to congratulate Hairy and IDNET for exposing BT's cynical selling of capacity, that by their own written admission, they cannot supply. I suggest this admission is good grounds for a strong complaint about BT. I would certainly share their statements with interested parties.
I note BT say "as and when spare bandwidth becomes available it will be progressed as necessary." This might mean "when more customers move to LLU." Anyway, Hairy, my inclination would be to move broadband to an LLU provider and leave voice where it is if you have to.
Quote from: davej99 on Nov 11, 2008, 10:57:51
I think we have to congratulate Hairy and IDNET for exposing BT's cynical selling of capacity, that by their own written admission, they cannot supply.
If you want to be really cynical about BT and trust, try reading this (http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/message.jspa?messageID=45407#45407) from one Angus Prune.
It sets out the whole BT/Webwise/Phorm stuff in a nutshell, making some very pertinent points in the process.
A very interesting read, Tac, and one that raises the spectre of us all becoming unwitting 'victims' of Phorm if BT Wholesale decided to quietly implement DPI.
Quote from: Rik on Nov 11, 2008, 14:31:20
A very interesting read, Tac, and one that raises the spectre of us all becoming unwitting 'victims' of Phorm if BT Wholesale decided to quietly implement DPI.
And if they did there would be nothing those of us out in the sticks could do about it, since the only LLU alternatives (here at any rate), are Orange and TalkTalk, neither of which I would trust any more than BT.
I know, although hopefully, the ICO would get involved if it were done without consent. Finding out might be the problem for us. :(
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/354188994.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Not much improvement in speeds as you can see.I will try for a BT speedtest if their site works it wasnt working a while ago.
Looks like BT can get away with providing any speed they feel they wish. Sadly good ISPs have to put up with using a dying dinosaurs infrastructure. I see it is estimated that 25,000 million pounds minimun need spending to replace our copper based comms system. Shame they are wasting 10,000 million on the Olympics and spending 15,000million on two new aircraft carriers which equals what we need? Approx a similar sum is wasted within the NHS every year on poor deals and overpriced supply.
Never mind our society will go on based on corroding copper and 1960s telephone exchanges.
I will see what we can do next. Both LLus on my exchange are (a) of doubtful character Orange and TT/CPW and (b) only do combined voice and bb deals. I am on a BT phone contract.
O2 are rumoured to be activating next year , they are already on nearly all the surrounding exchanges and they do a bb only deal ( well linked to a easy PAYG or contract mobile phone which is OK by me).
I might try a super cheap ISP as we all must seek the best priced service these days, there is no point in having a High Quality ISP like IDnet when serviced by a 19century BT donkey, well maybe an ass. Does anyone know of a cheap donkey type ISP or just a cheap one. Newnet?
Not sure about this Phorm stuff seems illegal under Euro legislation they might get away with it if there is a postive opt in clause, customers could be encourage to opt in with reduced rental charges or more downloads etc. Sadly we must expect everyone we deal with to be spying on our private business as it seems the majority of the population dont care, after all look at how many vote at elections or what type or "news"papers most folk read.
BT certainly are guilty of over selling BB just like airlines over sell seats even now, as they know there are always those who cancel or transfer flights. Rail operators routinely sell more tickets than the number of seats they have at busy times and routes. At least at other times the trains are nearly empty well around here they are.
Just had a quick peek at the Idnet new phone packages, seem to be well priced ( ie about the same as everyone else) but why don't they offer an Anytime deal surely this is what most families or retired folk go for these days.
Other smaller phone service providers seem to miss out the "anytime" deal as well.
Carphone Warehouse seem unbeatable on phone and bb combined deals, I guess one could accept some short comings based not only on this but also on coming from where I am now. ie With sub 1 meg speeds and the fact that I have had a these speeds for nearly three years now. (when Max happened here).
I'm sorry about the dead end you seem to have come to Hairyman. For me, they tell me they've upgraded the VP today and they've asked me to test my speed tonight. It's a bit better but nowhere near enough. 1037 kbps now. I'll do it again later and send them the results. I wonder if the next thing they tell me will be the same as they've told you. Ah well, it's not the end of the world (that's me trying to be adult ;D ).
Quote from: Tacitus on Nov 11, 2008, 13:16:37
If you want to be really cynical about BT and trust, try reading this (http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/message.jspa?messageID=45407#45407) from one Angus Prune.
It sets out the whole BT/Webwise/Phorm stuff in a nutshell, making some very pertinent points in the process.
I read that post from Angus Prune and followed some of the links. If someone at the Royal Mail opened a letter from your bank and inserted an advert for a Post Office savings account I think most people would be outraged to put it mildly. Some of what I've read there says to me that is exactly what BT have been doing electronically, or am I wrong? Please tell me I'm wrong?
Quote from: zappaDPJ on Nov 12, 2008, 00:52:28
.......am I wrong?
No, basically you're correct. It was a trial run of the system and they didn't inform their users. Someone smarter, or more curious than most users, discovered what was going on. Hence the furore.
Quote from: hairyman on Nov 11, 2008, 19:07:57
Does anyone know of a cheap donkey type ISP or just a cheap one. Newnet?
Newnet can be cheaper, but they're not cheap and would be on my shortlist, with Zen, if I ever left IDNet. I would have thought an Enta reseller might be good for you, eg ADSL24.
Hi All
An amazing thing happened tonight , well two actually, one I managed to log into BTspeedtest site and two it gave a fast result. Well flipping fast for me. Last night all I saw was 700kbps. So I guess there must be something good on TV keeping the broadband neighbours off their PCs.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 7552 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3778 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
Speedtester test done right after!!!
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/355467427.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
And Thinkbroadband test done next.
Speed Test Results
Date 13/11/08 20:01:17
Speed Down 4237.03 Kbps ( 4.1 Mbps )
Speed Up 367.90 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
Call me a cynic but maybe they have put me on the high priority service with Lower contention that several ISps can provide with BT IPstream.
Maybe its just a fluke?
I will do a test later tonight to see if it reports fast then.
Yesterday I had 8 disconnects reported by the router, this is unusual as normally when its its wet ( and its been wet for a week now, the Severn Vale is nearly a boating lake again) the line is fine. Maybe work was being done at the exchange? Other line data on the router looks the same as normal.
Hairyone
# Host Sent Recvd Best Avg Worst
1 thinkbroadband-gw2.core-rs2.thdo.ncuk.net 15 15 0ms 0ms 0ms
2 gi0-1-10-star1.bdr-rt1.rbsov.ncuk.net 15 15 0ms 0ms 0ms
3 idnet-gw-b.lonap.net 15 15 0ms 16ms 211ms
4 telehouse-gw3-g0-2-331.idnet.net 15 15 0ms 2ms 28ms
5 telehouse-gw2-g0-2-400.idnet.net 15 15 0ms 59ms 515ms
Just did this traceroute on the Thinkbroadband site looks like I am on two connections/jumps/hosts at Idnets telehouse provider. This is not usual, normally there is one only. Excuse the misaligned text the forum software seems to do a bit of reformatting for me.
Is getting 65% of your Profile in an evening good, I got 1900k when on 2272k fixed rate service.
Hi Hairy, good to see that things are starting to improve for you!
65% on a contended exchange is good. Because of overheads, you would normally get a maximum of around 90% of profile.
With your unusual disconnects, it does sound like bt kicking something!
Hi Lance
BT now say ( email just picked up tonight) that they have found a less congested VP for my temporary use until the old ones congestion is sorted .
Not sure what that means maybe they have a posh persons VP and a one for ordinary folk and maybe the later will get less congested when people migrate to CPW or Orange ( both recently newish at my exchange) and free up capacity on BT. Maybe Ive been connected via GCHQs circuit!! Spooky? Maybe they have used a can of switch cleaner on the old stepper relays at the exchange!
Lets hope it maintains this speed , thanks all, will report back.
Hairy
Looking good Hairy, :fingers: it continues. :thumb:
It is possible that you have been put on a vp normally used by business customers, or it could just be that they have found another domestic vp. Either way, at least there has been some progress!
Hi All
Evening rates still seem to be around 3.5 to 4meg actual throughput's. So being on the posh persons VP seems good. I wonder what they have really done. Sync at 7500k and profile at 6500k when I looked last. Will do a BT speedtest later or tommorrow.
I did find out something today as I ran into an old colleague for the first time in maybe ten years ( we worked together over 20 yrs ago) he left to become a Telephone engineer for BT. He still plays with copper cables and when I asked about BB locally he said it is generally true that BT make provision of just 8megabits of capacity for every 40 connections. ie only 200kbps each if we all went on a download spree. It does vary from region to region my countys speeds are somewhat lower than normal with some bottlenecks as it is a large fairly rural county with minimal cable connections available and low LLU roll out to reduce the load on BT.
So I guess BT hopes most of its customers don't go on line and or expects congestion and hopes big downloaders will clear off to a LLU based isp?
Hope you are all well, wonder when they will chuck me back into the movie/BBCi/p*rn VP pool.
Glad to hear that the speeds are still improved. Lets hope they never move you back to the old vp!
It's good that things are looking at least a bit better. :)
It's an interesting confirmation of what we have long believed about BT and congestion. Thanks, Hairy. :)
Date 26/11/08 21:51:57
Speed Down 1993.69 Kbps ( 1.9 Mbps )
Speed Up 361.75 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
Hi All
Speeds seem to be dropping down to their old levels here I think they must have put me back on the poor mans VP again! I still sync at 7600k and although I cannot get a BT speedtest I guess the IPprofile is 6500k or higher as I have not had any disconnects ( at all )
I got several tests at sub one meg kbps last night. Maybe its the BBCi effect?
The BT speedtest site wont let me past the logon page I assume its overworked like most of the ridiculous BT system.
I feel a phonecall to IDnet and BT Wholesale manager coming on?
I have been off climbing in N.Wales so I haven't had a lot off time to enjoy the fast connection while it lasted.
How are others doing with their speeds at the moment?
LLu seems the way to go in the long term even BT seems to want its customers to go elsewhere.
I just wonder if they have had to move other users to your vp as well. I wouldn't really expect you to be moved back to where you were. So frustrating!
Got a bit bored so did a few speedtests from different servers around the northern globe.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362805923.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362807522.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362809002.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362809670.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362810221.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362810924.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362811406.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362811940.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362812645.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362813259.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/362813791.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Hi Lance
Yes you are probably right they are transferring or balancing up the VPs. Maybe I was transfered onto the higher priority, lower contention networks that some ISPs are advertising at higher rates. I think they claim contention of only 10 customers per 8mbps of provision as opposed to 40 per 8mbps for the standard service these are at the exchange level not at the ISPs rented servers end.
I think I will pop over to the O2 site and register an interest in their service if and when they add it to my exchange , they are already present on all three surrounding exchanges.
All a bit frustrating as you say. Thanks for the reply and yr presence.
Unfortunately it seems that LLU is going to be your only feasible option. I've said it several times before and i'll say it again: if only Idnet did LLU!
If only!
One day, maybe. Even if they do, inevitably they would start with the conurbations. :(
Quote from: Rik on Nov 27, 2008, 08:33:44
One day, maybe. Even if they do, inevitably they would start with the conurbations. :(
Yes Rik I guess that may happen , When I spoke to Ofcom earlier this month ref my slow net connection , they said moving to a LLu is the only guaranteed way to get a "change" in service levels , nearly always much faster, as based on the data they had, IPstream ISPs/customers were speed limited by the infrasructure not by the ISPs internal systems.
He also said they hoped the goverment would via a green/white paper expect the next major roll out of high speed internet via fibre to start on area not already served by Virgin and other fibre as there would be no point in duplicating fibre along with all the disruption( digging up etc ) . Existing fibre to near home systems would be expected to do as BT had to do now with their infrastructure ie they will have to lease space and capacity to others. BT and others will be given permissions to install fibre in areas not currently provided with the same.
I guess this still means it will go into areas already not provided with fibre and that means towns and cities first and country folk after hell freezes over? The nearest cable to here is eight miles away my town and the adjoining much larger one has none, but it does have 6 or 7 internet providers on the exchange compared to our three ( BT, Orange and CPW).
Hairy
Deep joy. >:(
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/364331158.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Speeds back to "normal " here at last!! Phew I was nearly getting excited with over one meg and I nearly had an attack when it once went up to 4meg!!
Still its all safe now , nearly back to 2003 speeds. Could some of the porn/gamers/BBCiers and video/CD pirates please do more so I can be safe at 512kbps rates.
Its hard work being 400yards from the telephone exchange with a 7616k sync and 6500k profile and 700k throughput. Think I will go down to the garage to fill up the car tonight and see if I can get away with paying 10p per litre for diesel and see what they say!
Mine's really bombing... 1556 here with a 7616 synch. cr*p isn't it?!
:shake:
Quote from: hairyman on Nov 27, 2008, 19:53:33
I guess this still means it will go into areas already not provided with fibre and that means towns and cities first and country folk after hell freezes over? The nearest cable to here is eight miles away my town and the adjoining much larger one has none, but it does have 6 or 7 internet providers on the exchange compared to our three ( BT, Orange and CPW).
Hairy
Your lucky i do not have a choice i too live in a village and the only provider is BT no llu (or sdsl), but if i lived 3 miles north i would be on the MK exchange with a choice of 9 LLU
companiesMK exchange (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SMBT)
compared to my exchange
Soulbury (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SMSUB)
Plus the MK exchange wasn't cabled with aluminium. :sigh:
Just had a look at the exchange coverage.
I am about 50 feet away from being covered by the mk exchange >:(
I live lust above the H (on the name SToke Hammond) on the mk coverage map.
A small drum of cable and you're sorted, Dean. :)
Easy as that, eh? ;D
Hmm thought i posted some links, Hey Ho.
Ive got the cable just BT get the hump if you mess about in the house, messing about with the main network they would get the right hump!!!!
Quote from: g7pkf on Dec 01, 2008, 20:49:54
Hmm thought i posted some links, Hey Ho.
Ive got the cable just BT get the hump if you mess about in the house, messing about with the main network they would get the right hump!!!!
A"right hump" with BT sounds very nasty ( worse than that Russian website on strange farming practices)!
Yes I do have Orange ( activated early 2008?) at our exchange and CPW added on in October this year but both only have phone/bb and or mobile combined deals . I have two thirds of a BT year long phone deal to complete so I cant go that route yet. I do hope 02 will activate as they only need a PAYG O2 mobile contract to add BB which I can OK. O2 are on three surrounding exchanges so there may be some hope.
My town has 6000phone lines I think so we are not that small the neighbouring town that has more LLu ( O2 Be , Sky, Tiscali, Orange, CPW that I know of) only has 11000 lines. The nearest cabled exchange area only has Orange and CPW as I guess other LLus don't wish to compete or more likely they have agreed not to compete as there has been no cable expansion around my county for five years only new roads on new housing estates in cabled areas have been added on.
G7pkf -- how about using yr radio skills to add a microwave link to a friend "over the border" in MKland to send/rec data. I know they do this in Scotland to send bb over and along "firths" between islands on an adhoc basis. ( I am G8 t f i first licensed in 1978?) it would be good for a trial anyway! I can supply 200watt 1.3ghz amplifier and receiver or 40watt at 2.3Ghz system that I used in the good old days when I lived on a big hilltop. Enough of the radio stuff.
Still the world goes on and at least current speeds are better than dial up. Plus even at Idnets rates right now, BB is cheaper than 512kbps was when I first got it in 2003? when it was £23.50 a month plus I paid over £100 quid for activation then. Mind you my pay has been driven down over the years as employers and inflation have taken their toll.
Personally I would be happy to pay the same as I did in 2003 plus inflation for say 5Gbyte an month download if I got a stable say 7 meg minimum . Sadly this is not possible with cr*py BT copper aluminium that adds a few extra db of attenuation a year to my local loop and the congested network they own and operate either side of what is a fast ISP like Idnet.
Be seeing you.
Quote from: hairyman on Dec 01, 2008, 23:10:40
A"right hump" with BT sounds very nasty ( worse than that Russian website on strange farming practices)!
:lol:
The mind boggles. ;D
Thanks for the offer, my take of south is superb, trouble is north i have afew houses and a railway line to contend with. and guess which way the mk border is :(
Hi G7pkf
Rail lines obviously are big problem when electrified with all those ugly overhead cables. Don't modern overhead lines on rail carry 25kv ? Certainly good for a spark or two. I have a minor branch line between me and the telephone exchange but it is all diesel or occasional steam and all the telephone lines are underground below a road that travels under the line. The main line is also nearby but fortunately it is all diesel as well. I am surprised BT are allowed to put any of their cables within 5 maybe 10 metres of the HV lines.
They are probarly not.
But
they put ther cables there about the same time the exchange was put in (circa 50 years ago) hence steam trains only.
then electric trains went in-no problems to phones.
then adsl went in and the problem arose. now the question whos fault is it?
chicken or the egg?
bt or the trains?
BT state third party interferance.
trains state all our trains are within emf limits.
The whole village suffers but as ther are apx only 200-300 phone/adsl users we are on a loser, BT will not invest thousands on us, we are a minority of users.
so in other words tough on us.
It's one of those 'no fault' situations, Dean. No-one knew about ADSL when things were done, as a company, BT can't afford to spend money that they won't recover, especially when they are not obliged to provide ADSL. The only answer is fibre, and that isn't going to happen for a long time yet.
Quote from: g7pkf on Dec 02, 2008, 20:42:13
They are probarly not.
But
they put ther cables there about the same time the exchange was put in (circa 50 years ago) hence steam trains only.
then electric trains went in-no problems to phones.
then adsl went in and the problem arose. now the question whos fault is it?
chicken or the egg?
bt or the trains?
BT state third party interferance.
trains state all our trains are within emf limits.
The whole village suffers but as ther are apx only 200-300 phone/adsl users we are on a loser, BT will not invest thousands on us, we are a minority of users.
so in other words tough on us.
Say 200 users on broadband at £15 per month = £3000 per month or 36K£ a year . What would moving a few cables cost. What BT wont do is spend more money than they can get away with at the current level of complaints. Most people on bb dont know what actual speed they get in reality, a pal of mine who is a very clever but non technical chap told me when I asked that he connected at 54meg as thats what his laptop says about his WiFi system. I decided to explain later ! I did a Samknows check and where he is he might sync at 2meg.
Most of BTs cables will need replacing within a decade or so as not even the best quality cables survive fifty years. BT are suffering from chronic underinvestment like most of the UKs infrastructure ans example is in my county well over 1billion is needed just to make the road network up to to the minimun spec at the current spending and likely lifetime of works completed they are increasing the total bill by 8% a year. This means in less than ten years time the bill will be 2billion and thats at todays costings ie they are only spending half the amount needed to stand still let alone catch up with repairs alone ( no new build included). Profits usually go to shareholders and execs not down to investment , my aerospace based employer has some very good new test gear but lots of it dates back to pre-Concorde times .
Its a difficult situation the one between emf/emp and interference to other services I remember when I was an active VHF radio amateur running high power ( 400watts / 56dBmilliwatt output into high gain yagi aerials on mostly 144 and 432mhz bands I found that even located in a village my transmissions got into "anything" with a transistor junction in it , ie even cassette recorders and alarm clocks burst into life when the diode junctions demodulated my signals. Needless to say my gear was fully tested and only transmitting where it should. This was before the days of PCs and the net as we know it now and I hate to think what it would be like now with dozens of bits of cheaply built electronics in every room of every house.
I am sure if I was still active as a radio amateur I could stop ADSL working for a large radius around here because as we know ADSL is easily disrupted as forcing high speed data in analog form down ancient twisted or often non-twisted pairs is at best a marginally possible idea. Using coaxial cable would work well though!??
ADSL as I understand it runs as a multiplexed signal over the MW frequencies around 1 Mhz the exchange transmits a analog signal to your home at around the 100milliwatt level and your modem talks back to the exchange over a smaller bandwidth at lower speeds at maybe 10milliwatts. These levels depend on the line length and are adjusted during the presync stage when one turns on yr router. Any noise near the hopefully twisted pair can interfere with this signal path and ordinarily all that would happen is you would get bad data and the handshaking/checksum bits would get the "lost in the noise data resent".
This should all be fine and say 10% lost data due to noise would slow speeds by maybe double that.
BUT what happens as I understand it is that the rubbish IPprofile/Bras system sees these noise periods as a semi permenant feature and to avoid the slowing of the network as a whole with these resent data packets due to noise periods the maximun data rate is slowed to a level the software considers there will be NO retrys. I think?
As an analogy say you have a garden hose filling a bucket from a tap and you turn the tap on enough to fill the bucket in say 1 minute. BUT after getting ten bucket fulls of water you get a small kink( or a small leak I guess) in the hose that slows filling the bucket to every two minutes. To recover the situation you might ( if you hadn't noticed or couldn't fix the kink or leak) turn up the tap to get back to the 1 bucket minute speed again. What BT do is to turn down the tap to cut your flow further to avoid wasting water? or building up back pressure. They do this and leave it turned back for a period of time, rather than look at the current pressure/data flow to see if it is OK right now. I understand LLus don't use time based profiling and either accept the increased overhead caused by retrys or slow the data rate for a much shorter period of time probably measure in minutes rather than the days or weeks that BT use.
As to the expense of replacing or upgrading infrastructure do we wait until the taps runs dry the lights go out or the roads collapse before doing what we know is right?
Here endeth the lecture?
Hairyman
Amen :)
Shall we take up a collection? ;D
You make a good point, Hairy, we are notorious in this country for not investing in infrastructure. London, with it's Victorian sewers, may one day come to regret that.
Date 07/12/08 00:17:28
Speed Down 5158.79 Kbps ( 5 Mbps )
Speed Up 370.19 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.adslguide.org.uk
Caught my connection unawares at gone midnight and got the best speed I have ever seen!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Over 5meg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will see if it maintains that level during the early evening.
I got an email from IDnet to say that the BT escalation team had ordered some temporary adjustments at the exchange on Friday.
On this Monday they had also ordered some more work that sounds like "like lift and shift" , they will be transfering me to another line card at the exchange.
I will see if that helps. I remain forever hopeful?!
Hairy
:thumb: :fingers: Hairyman. ;)
That does sound like a lift and shift, Hairy. At least they are trying to do something - I suspect IDNet are better at pushing for action than many...
Let's hope it continues. :fingers:
Hope this works for you Hairy, you've really been through the mill with BT.
Thanks for all yr support and advice , karma gladly sent.
My snr is all over the place this weekend from 5 to 11db recently it was more like 7 to 9db. Also doing a signal trace shows some anonymous monitoring is maybe present so hopefully bb checks are being done.
I have not had much time to use the net this weekend, as pre Xmas family stuff and planning for a climbing trip or two to the French Alps in 2009 have taken a higher priority. Must sharpen (first trick will be to find them) my crampons and ice axe?
Many thanks to Idnet as well , I have no doubt they are the best no matter what happens after the next step. Maybe BT are not all bad not sure if staff being laid of by them would agree though?
If you can engage the right people at BT, they are good. The problem is getting past all the jobsworths. :(
:pig: :pig: :pig: :pig: :pig:
Hi Again
Had one disconnect today presumably when they did a switch over.
Checked my router stats Downstream figures SNR varies 7 to 12db Line Attn 36.4dB Data rate 7616k
Upstream figures SNR 18 line attn 23dB Upstream rate 448k
Last night stats before the lift and shift were Downstream figures SNR 5 to 11db Line attn 38.5db Data rate 7616k
Upstream figures SNR 25dB Line attn 25dB downstream rate 448k
I have still to do a a BT speedtest but previously it wouldn't let me authenticate.
Thinkbroadband showed about 2meg throughput.
On my router stats I seem to have gained 2dB of downstream line attenuation ( ie less attn) and improved 2dB on average SNR. Upstream interestingly I have a lower SNR at 18 vs 25 previously and again improved the upstream attenuation.
The loss of upsteam SNR seems weird but the gain factor of 2dB less line attn both on both up and down can only help a bit.
Lets see if things change over time , does anyone know if my line will need retraining?
My connection usually suffers intermittant but persistant disconnects these are always during short dry spells!! These we have not seen for a while !! It again will be interesting if these return if we are blessed with good weather again . I assume all they have done by switching line cards is reconnecting in the exchange to a new in out port ? Quite why this has reduced the line attn and altered the SNRs I cannot imagine.
Any ideas , so far no better no worse but things are heading the right way , the exchange is obviously heavily congested tonight or is it London and the SE all messing about.
:sanity:
Regards
Hairy
Quote from: hairyman on Dec 08, 2008, 22:40:30
Thinkbroadband showed about 2meg throughput.
I could be a stuck profile. A BT speed test will confirm. :)
That would be my thought, Seb, they're treating it as a new connection. The 2db change in u/s noise margin is probably just down to it using some higher frequencies. It's still very healthy.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 7616 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 6000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3873 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
:flamethrower::pig: :pig: :pig:
Got a BT test, not bad, it might improve on the throughput as it is 1930hrs and evening pirate software and or porn downloads are no doubt in full swing by my fellow exchange users.
On this subject I am always being asked to diagnose PC problems by friends and those at work as I do know a bit having built and serviced industrial and my own PCs , all men absolutely refuse my usual offer to sort it out either at work on the bench or at home they just want advice , women all bring it in to be sorted. I always wonder if its the Gary Glitter PC world syndrome?
I will try another BT speedtest and a few others later. I think I am probably back onto the old VP/circuit as it seemed impossible to authenticate on the BT speedtest using the VP they transferred me to initially.
At least my tp seems more commensurate with my 400 mtrs distance from the exchange.
Hairy
That's not bad - certainly a lot better than you've had in the past - but it could be better. :)
Hi Sebby
Yes its not bad ,if it stays stable that will be fine.
The national average for BT line based ISPs seems to be around 3.5meg actual tp and for my county somewhat lower due to line lengths so a 3.8meg from BT speedtest here looks fairly typical.
I will do a BT test again and report back.
I still wonder why my upstream SNR has dropped to 18dB from 25dB. Maybe that is that set by my router based as it is the item doing the transmitting back to the exchange??
Hairy
The noise margins are a function of what was happening when you connected, and what frequencies the router and DSLAM negotiate. I've seen mine drop from 21db to 7db when there was some bad noise around.
What were you listening to that was so bad, Rik? >:D
Heavy Metal. >:D
The "X factor" or "Im a talentless hasbeen get me out of here ( hear!!)" are both quite bad by way of noise.
:flamethrower:
:flamethrower::banana2: :evilb: But as we all know Michael Jackson was "Bad". :evilb: :banana2:
:flamethrower:
:rofl: :clever: :hehe:
Speedtest Results
Date Downstream Upstream
22/12/08 21:25 3563.69 Kbps 373.15 Kbps
21/12/08 22:42 4215.40 Kbps 373.90 Kbps
21/12/08 19:14 2621.52 Kbps 372.32 Kbps
19/12/08 16:51 4096.74 Kbps 374.08 Kbps
18/12/08 22:12 4024.14 Kbps 372.03 Kbps
18/12/08 22:08 3813.76 Kbps 370.20 Kbps
18/12/08 17:24 2349.57 Kbps 371.34 Kbps
17/12/08 23:13 3370.27 Kbps 373.89 Kbps
16/12/08 23:58 4741.24 Kbps 373.78 Kbps
15/12/08 23:18 4613.81 Kbps 373.70 Kbps
10/12/08 23:53 4401.06 Kbps 370.10 Kbps
09/12/08 23:49 4367.65 Kbps 371.57 Kbps
08/12/08 23:03 3968.19 Kbps 373.93 Kbps
08/12/08 20:47 2339.71 Kbps 374.10 Kbps
Hi All
Seasons greetings I trust you are all well :thnks:
Above are my recent speedtests as reported using thinkbroadband.
Much better than the sub 1meg speeds I was getting in the evening now I get 2 to 3 meg at the same time and up to 4 or sometimes 5meg after 2230hrs.
So if you have a problem stick with it and keep at your ISP and if needed approach BT direct, there is a high level escalation team at BT which tag yr line and monitor for problems, I don't know who pays ( us indirectly I guess, IDnet seemed reluctant to initiate this process or were not sure how to do it but whatever the process IDnet have been great and I doubt other providers would have done what they have.
Currently I sync at 7616k with an SNR of 7 to 11 db with downstream attn of 35db. So I now tput at best 50% of sync before it was about 10% the BT speedtest reports 6500k IPprofile now and before it was 6000k or occasionally 6500k. So somehow the congestion has been reduced.
What I do still get is--- as seen on graphs or tps vs time -- is tps below one meg for about one second these rate drops occur every 3 to 4 seconds on average. the graph is very spiky. I assume this is contention/congestion with BT traffic managing tps with rapid rate slowing as the contention is coped with?
I will do some more tests and see how it all stands up over the next month or so.
Has anyone seem the price of fresh Turkeys in the shops this year!!! We are sticking with Best Scottish Beef its cheeper ( or moooier ??).
HAIRYMAN
:food2: :food: :cheers: :pizza:
Your right hairyman............The price of Turkeys has gone up ;D :mxmas: :santa2:
Stuff the turkey. ;)
And goose the cook? ;D
Just read hairyman's thread all the way through and the similarities to the problems I've had over the past few years are uncanny, all but the fact I got IDNET to put me on a fixed 2meg connection which isn't perfect but is much more stable.
Over recent weeks I've managed to remain connected for 100's of hours at a time and I've not noticed any SNR fluctuations at all which is a lot better than the past few years, I don't know what's happened but it seems to have fixed itself?
Downstream attenuation still shows at an alarming 47db but SNR sticks around 14-16db. IDNET line checker says I should get 4meg and I'm 2km from my exchange.
Now the big question... should I risk trying ADSLMAX again or stick with my lowly fixed 2 meg? I haven't been that bothered up until now but I feel like I'm missing out on new 'media rich' content as it takes an age to download, it's reminding me more and more of the old dial up days.
It's worth talking to support about trying Max again after the holidays, Ginger, as it would entail a physical change of connection at the exchange and that might overcome the previous issues. 47db isn't that high, btw, I'm on a 57db line. :)
I don't mind trying ADSLMAX if thery're willing to switch me straight back if I get problems... and as long as it doesn't cost me anything!
Merry Christmas Rik, have some Karma. :)
And to you, Ginger, thanks. :)
My connection speed is just as I said. As soon as the students went home on Saturday my speed went up. Just now when it would usually be 1000 if I'm lucky it's 6343. S'funny, they were looking into why students' connections were slow at work last week.. haha.
At least that 100% confirms it as exchange contention, Ann.
Hi All
Happy New Year!!!! :hny:
Ann ---- I hope your local students all concentrate on their studies more in 2009 and stop ripping off articles from the net and calling it research? As you say I guess even through their student haze thay notice "their" netspeeds are low and may complain to BT like you do.
Just did a New Years Eve BT speedtest( sad or what!!) the results are certainly better than last year ( sub one meg then).
I have changed nothing here as I think I had done all that I could do over the previous two years that we have had the sub one meg throughput 8Meg MAX service. I guess 60% of IPprofile as an actual tp is not to bad during the evening? Better than 600k to 1000k I got after MAX happened!
There had been little or no improvement with the initial IDnet / BT input ( the best tps had got better but they were erratic caused by congestion locally and poor BT / Openreach service to their customer). I emailed Mr Livingthin at BT and actually had replies he said IDnet should escalate the problem , Idnet said they knew no further method of applying pressure to BT, The head of BT wholesale phoned me at home on a Saturday morning to explain the next steps and he would see that Idnet were made aware of the progress and explain the escalation methodology to them as well.
I was than put onto some secondary less congested VP and spare hardware ordered and a lift and shift was planned in by the Wholesale guys. The average tputs now are much better although I doubt if VOIP or streaming video would work well as the data rates still drop near zero for half a second every 2 to 10 seconds due I guess to traffic management by BT/exchange congestion. This is no problem as I need neither right now, I guess gaming would be no go as well but again I grew up thirty years ago so this is no problem until my second childhood starts next week!!
All this and I live 400metres from the exchange!!! I can only imagine what it like with miles of rubbish 100year old technology , twisted pair!! Come on BT,, fibre to the home is the only way forward most of your existing copper will be usless within a decade probably even just for voice. Forget 21CN that is already an decade old idea which you cannot implement on time anyway. Its just like a sticking plaster.
So I will see what a long dry spell does to my SNRs. These used to muck up my connection with MANY disconnects, but maybe the 2 to 3 db gained with the lower line loss after the modifications at the exchange will keep the connection up or maybe it will stay noiseless even in long dry weather??
So my advice to those with erratic broadband speeds is to keep at it by asking "The great IDnet guys and gals" to keep at BT and use the systems set up. Also use this forum and the good advice and "support" given here.
Thanks again to all, SEASONS THINGYS to all , go home sober (ish) , hangovers are not worth it. I am going to celebrate NEW YEAR with a weekend daywalk over on the Brecon Beacons in the icy paradise above the clouds ( I hope). I will report back next year.......................
Results below
Hairyman
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 7616 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3931 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
:hny: hairyman :thumb:
I hope you have a good walk, Chris. Even with the relatively slow performance, you're still beating me. ;)
Hi All
Hope you have all been well, I have had a good winter with some good mountain walking and climbing days in this snowy weather. All is well there then. The internet seems to have degenerated again I see Idnet have been buying duff gear from those BT thieves again. Shame about the monopoly situation where IDnet are in practice only a subsidiary of BT ( practically they are like a BT franchise, like Domino's Pizza and MacDonald's ).
My throughputs have been around 3 to 4 meg since Christmas but sometime in the last 48hrs they have dropped to sub one meg again. The sync to the exchange is still 7616kbps interleaved with no disconnects ( well about one a week at worst).
I have emailed idnet support but I am really worn down by this poor service from a once good supplier I don't care if the problem is BT or IDnet because as far as I am concerned the service is provided by BT with Idnet handling the paperwork and passing on the cash taking a percentage.
Any suggestions ???
Below Thinkbroadband speedtests
Date Downstream Upstream
03/02/09 19:27 1040.18 Kbps 356.56 Kbps
03/02/09 18:32 1245.27 Kbps 361.98 Kbps
03/02/09 18:06 882.48 Kbps 358.19 Kbps
Test my Server by Visualware shows similar speeds, but in addition shows huge packet delays ( 500msec) and chopped up throughput with peaks at 5 to 6 meg but huge pauses at slow or near zero tput. Are the rest of you getting less than a quarter of your normal throughputs?? I have rebooted my router tonight.
PDF s attached from Visualware.
Hairyman
[attachment deleted by admin]
There have been some problems following a network upgrade over the last few days, Hairy, as you'll no doubt see on the forum, and in this Announcement (http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=12560.msg291844#new), you'll see that there was a major outage today. As most people's connections seem to have stabilised now, I suggest you contact IDNet in the morning, as they may just need to tweak something for you.
Glad you had a nice winter break! :thumb:
Thanks for that Simon , I have emailed support, and may telephone them tommorrow , but I might just transfer the connection to another BT based franchise both will take the same amount time from my busy working day.
O2 / Be are planning to activate to our exchange ( all the surrounding similar size exchanges are O2 enabled and a pal syncs at 10.5meg on a long line and tputs at over 8meg all for next to nothing on top of a very cheap ( £10 a month 150min anytime/anyone voice SIM only mobo deal). That will be the way to go I guess.
Why o Why should something as simple as broadband need any "tweaking" by human intervention at a provider!!!! A reboot I can understand to reset parameters.
OH well on we go. AGAIN.
Find attached a photo of me on Carnedd Dafydd in Snowdonia a couple of weekends ago ( this is to punish someone for B**gering up my net connection again)!!!!
Hairyman
[attachment deleted by admin]
It could well be IDNet that are to blame for the last few days, Hairyman, as they've had some problems. A reboot of your router may sort the problems now (it'll put you on a less congested central).
If things don't improve, O2/Be could well be the answer.
Great pic, Hairy, that must have been quite a climb!
Hairy, are you DLT or just a lookalike?
:rofl:
Worrying, isn't it. :)
Hi Rik
Yes it was a good day out, the sun even came out, it wasn't too hard a climb up. We stay at our clubs mountain hut which is a converted stone barn only 4mls from the photos location. it was very icy beneath the fresh snow with I suspect has been below zero for nearly two months as we had good snow back before Xmas on our previous visit.
My bb tput still remains at 1meg or lower with signs of heavy traffic shaping when you look at the graph of tput vs time. There are many choppy breaks in the tput with long pauses and long pings often over 300milliseconds. Frankly I dint believe that IDnet dint traffic shape of rather BT do it for them but they probably call it something different.
I have tried rebooting several times with no change. All I want is a consistent 2meg tput like I had three years ago. I then synced at 2272kbps and downloaded all the time at 1800kbps and that was with Eclipse Internet. This ridiculous MAX service needs dumping in favour of the much better LLU system with no profiling etc.
DLT huh I am the HAIRYman( must get the scissors out) my colleagues call me Gerry Adams. I suppose I could save cash by changing to a decent ISP and visit the hairdressers more? I does keep you warm in this cold spell though.
No reply from IDnet ref my email to them.
HAIRYMAN
IDNet are probably quite busy at the moment. I'm sure they'll reply shortly.
Hi All again
The old old problem has reappeared. See my BT speedtest below , I had about 50 disconnects in 24hrs about three weeks ago and a few since then.
After the 50 dropouts the speed / profiledropped to 1 meg then after a few days ( 5? ) then picked up to 4.5meg for a while then dropped to 1.5meg where we are now.
I have done all the usual line tests and local tests many times and often the voice line is so noisy we have to use the mobiles!!!
BT say the voice line tests OK, I have 37db attenuation on a line that is all underground and no more than 1.2km long
( I am 400metres from the exchange as the crow flies) , I suspect the cables are aluminium ( put in 1975-1980 ish) as the bit at my end seems very brittle and is def not copper). I only have one phone and the router ( Zoom X5V) on a ADSL nation filtered faceplate.
Currently sync at 6200k with 16db SNR , when I loose connection and the voice line is noisy the UPSTREAM link goes bonkers and ends up at 0 db SNR and drops out.
I am thinking of trying AAISP to see if their claims are true, their downloads are very good as 1gb a month in the daytime should be plenty and the limit the rest of the time is more than enough. I will email IDnet and see what they can do but BT want the usual £180 threat to turnout.
The other option is try Orange or TT LLu on our exchange ( urgh!!!) as they don't profile and their exchange contention cannot be worse than BTs, when I profiled at 6000k with IDnet/BT at best I got 4meg and mostly 1.5meg actual. I think BT put me on an Office/Commercial connection last year when the speeds fell to 1meg with a 6meg profile they said a new VP was used which I understand means a less contended one often an Office rather than a home one.
Maybe an email to Ian Livingthing again?? Or maybe the head of BT Wholesale who called me last time and seemed to effect a cure!! For a while??
I am not surprised the line is poor right now as it definitely is worse when it is dry and we haven't had any real rain since the big snow back in FEB , the garden is looking very parched, and the cable joints need some water to cut down the diode created at every ally to ally joint.
I remember when I was a shortwave radio ham the effect of poor cables on LF aerial arrays , ally is not so bad at VHF and UHF but can be a disaster at LF.
How does one avoid the BT Wholesale guys blaming the voice line and vice versa.
Would a 2meg service be better and more stable?? Seems a Backward step as the line will support the full 8128K service at 9db without the noise .
PS the noise seems worse and gives more dropouts in the daytime so I dont think its MW/LW nighttime propagation issues.
Good to be back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????
HAIRYMAN
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6368 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 1500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1351 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
Hi Hairy,
As you know, I'm no authority on these matters, and someone will be along shortly to better advise, but on the face of it, if the problem is noise on the line, as you seem to have established, I don't think changing ISPs will help, although I'm not sure how this affects LLU providers.
You say you have noise on the line when using the phone - is that present all the time?
Try a quiet line test, Hairy, dial 17070 and select option 2. If you can hear noise, report a voice fault to BT and make no mention of ADSL.
It seems as if you've got a noisy voice line if you're having to resort to mobiles to call out.
Attach a telephone to the BT master socket and try and phone out. Test it with another 'phone or two if possible.
If you're still getting perceptible line noise (crackling or whooshing sounds which impair voice communications) regularly, then pester BT until you get them to fix it. They will always deny liability, even pretending they can't hear the noise on the line as you're talking to them. ::) But just keep pestering until they send an engineer out to try and fix it.
It took me 18 months and three times escalating BT engineers until they found out it was a fault quite near to the exchange. This was all rewired with dual core cable and has been fine since. They paid me compensation.
Quiet line test usually shows OK
THE noise is intermittant but persistant ( over three years plus) . Have tried a simple phone no change.
I really think I have tried everything ( except the 2.5kv flash tester down the phone line !!!!!!!!!!)
LLU s don't IPprofile or so I understand so they always try for best sync at the time.
Noise is always worse in dry spells ( all the lines are underground , buried near me and in ducts along the High Street in town).
The noise seems bb related ie no modem no noise but I am not sure of this. I suspect the synced broadband signal is being rectified diode fashion by poor joints that get worse when dried out. (This causes noise as the signals can be several tens to hundreds of milliwatts ) Have tried three other router/modems and many filters etc with no difference. The problem might be external ie crosstalk from other lines , I may not be on a true twisted pair , that was the last BT engineers comment ie on two wires on two pairs. The old exchanges cables were all cut many years ago by vandals ( before broadband) and I know they spent hundreds of hours sorting it out. We got other folks calls until the system wire crosses were sorted.
It doesn't sound too hopeful, does it? :( Your best hope might be to have a new line installed specifically for ADSL. If BT agree to that, then they would have to cancel the contract and refund you if it didn't work properly.
I wonder whether the problem is general to your area. Perhaps adjoining premises are having similar problems. If so, a group of you might 'scare' BT into some in-depth examination. ;)
I do know that in my case it really didn't get sorted out until the heavy brigade moved in. How shall I describe him? The 'heavy brigade', I mean.
Well, he was quite unlike a 'normal' BT engineer. Small, muscular and swarthy. I'm sure he hitched up the telegraph pole without a ladder. He walked with slightly bowed legs, had a week's worth of beard, and external waterproofs coloured an oily yellow, even in the summer. In short, he looked like he meant business and he wouldn't move on until he'd got it all fixed properly.
He beavered away for a couple of days until I lost sight of him up the lane. One day, he rang me up and said: "Your line's fixed, Sir. We've found the fault and rewired it back almost to the exchange. Good day, Sir". The End. ;)
A real engineer. :thumb:
Yes, a national treasure.
He should be immersed in formaldehyde resin and put on display in the reception area of BT Towers.
Only after he's dropped off his pole, though.
;D
I don't think "real" Openvomit engineers exist around here, my neighbours voice line went down , she has one of these " pensioners panic buttons" attached to the system so "really" needs the phone. Fair enough they repaired the broken cable between the point where it leaves the ground and enters the ground and enters the property a distance of 3 feet. The guy left the cable all in mid air without clipping it to the wall and without fixing the armoured outer to the grey boxs clamps/gland thingy ie she is left with a fat armoured cable all in mid air right by her front door with just the two tiny twisted pair ( 22gauge ?) wires holding all the weight. Job done off we go !!!
All the properties have two pairs to each house ( ie a spare provided) as far as I remember about 15yrs ago the line went down and I lost the line for two weeks ish. They fixed it by rewiring the connection between me and the the box over the road using the best two out of four available. I suspect not a twisted pair. They would have to dig up 15 yards of drive and a hundred yds of road to replace it I guess. The old Victorian part of town is all overhead but our newer part of town bit is all underground.
IDnet don't seem interested as it is a voice line problem to them.
As to a second line all BT are required to provide on a phone line is one capable of carrying 28kbps of data and reasonable quality of voice or so I understand.
AAISP at least say they will sort line noise and optimise the line for data.
I asked O2 why they they had activated all the surrounding exchanges with their gear and not done our similar sized one. I actually got a reply it was slightly cryptic but implied they were not sure the lines were optimised to meet their headline speed limits. ( Ally cables?)
I have asked my neighbours what they get but mostly they just know it works. One gets 8meg plus with TT and the other gets a solid 2meg with Tiscali on a 2meg service. Others get 4meg plus with BT as a ISP. We do have a very large private school in town which I suspect drags out a lot of bandwidth. 21CN is not planned until 2012 . The other neighbours are to old to be interested in the net. There are a few families with younger kids so I will ask what they get. At one point I could get better actual rates by using my neighbours WIFI ( with permission) and got about 4meg I think over a fifty yard distance. He synced at 8meg.
Thanks all.
HAIRYMAN
Plus net currently reports my exchanges VPs at RED , so I guess that shows the slow rates I get even with a good profile.
HAIRYMAN
It's a difficult one. With such a poor infrastructure, it's sometimes tough to work out where the problem lies. :sigh:
I doubt it's a case of IDNet not being interested, but rather that they have taken it as far as they can with BT and can't get them to budge. If AAISP say they will sort the noise, why not give them a try. Providing you're not tied in to a long contract, if they don't deliver, you're no worse off.
Yes Rik I do agree that IDnet have no control over BT only some input. I think the problem is this odd IPprofile system BT uses I assume it is used by them to save system bandwidth that would occur without it , there would be more requests for data resending otherwise when checksums asks for packets of data to be resent? THE Profiling system slows the peak rate down until resent packets drop to a low level?
Strange how the LLU boys manage without, why does it take days up to weeks to set the IPprofile? I would have thought with modern traffic shaping and management it could be done in almost real time or at least hour by hour or day by day.
I see in the papers today they are talking about spending £39 billion on some new Train main lines for rich folk to travel on. Probably half this sum would fund a proper data highway for those of us who don't live in big cities already provided with cable and who live well away from a useful train service ( after all they closed most of the train lines when I was a lad to save £50 pounds a year!!! Remember Dr Beaching. )
I will persist with IDnet and BT and see what they can do although AAISP do promise to sort line problems and their description of the method seems to hold water. Plus their data cap is much better than Idnet for about the same cash.
The long dry spell that makes my line noise occur more often looks likely to end this week so the problem may submerge again for a while.
Regards
HAIRYMAN
I don't know what the point of the profile system is, and I can't even really see a benefit for BT. As you say, LLU operators don't use it, which I believe is because it serves no real purpose. As Rik mentioned earlier, you've got nothing to lose if you want to try AAISP (is that who used to be called Andrews & Arnold, incidentally)?
Quote from: hairyman on Apr 06, 2009, 23:28:07
AAISP do promise to sort line problems and their description of the method seems to hold water. Plus their data cap is much better than Idnet for about the same cash.
What do they say they will do, Hairy? I know your line reports are good, including the copper, and that you've had a significant number of frequent re-syncs, which is what's damaging your profile (some have been as low as 1728, hence a 1500 profile). At this point, my advice would be to connect to the test socket, if you have one, preferably using a new router and RJ11 cable, and see if things stabilise.
Quote from: Rik on Apr 07, 2009, 08:35:28
What do they say they will do, Hairy? I know your line reports are good, including the copper, and that you've had a significant number of frequent re-syncs, which is what's damaging your profile (some have been as low as 1728, hence a 1500 profile). At this point, my advice would be to connect to the test socket, if you have one, preferably using a new router and RJ11 cable, and see if things stabilise.
Hi Rik
I can try the mastersockets test point and an alternative router. Currently the mastersocket has a ADSL 2005? filtered faceplate on it , IDnet sent an I plate which is not of much use as I have no extension wiring hence no ring wire, plus it wont work with the Filtered faceplate and I think I binned the old split face BT plate. Essentially I am now plugged into the test socket with the ADSL faceplate doing the filtering. I can use a filter plugged into the test socket with the simple phone and alt router.
The Mastersocket is 0ne foot from the PC and the router is by the PC all leads are just a few feet long and new, the phone is on its standard length lead next to the system. Normally we use a DECT cordless phone but a simple phone is always ready in case of one of out power cuts. I can detect no local noise in my household and have even turned off all the houses power and let the PC run on the UPS and still had drop outs!!! .
The mastersocket is at floor level under the PC corner, and the cable goes straight thro the cavity wall immediately into the outside grey BT terminal box and the armoured cable drop into the ground about 6 inches below the grey box. Hence I suspect there is no more than 2mtrs of telephone cable above ground to the router. The routers second used port is networked over the spare room I can/have removed this cable at the router which is next to the mastersocket for tests.
Would a different make of router help? My current router is a Zoom X5V ( four ethernet ports plus USB with VOIP phone port which is disabled) and the spare is a Creative Broadband Blaster ( with one ethernet plus one USB ) , I think they both use Alcatel chipset/firmware. Would one of these BT 2700 be a useful exercise. One with full real time logging of disconnects times and sync and line data would be fun and useful.
HAIRYMAN
If you have a filtered faceplate, an iPlate is of no use whatsoever (and physically can't be fitted). Given your setup, it sounds like a line issue external to your property. :(
Quote from: Sebby on Apr 06, 2009, 23:45:55
I don't know what the point of the profile system is, and I can't even really see a benefit for BT. As you say, LLU operators don't use it, which I believe is because it serves no real purpose. As Rik mentioned earlier, you've got nothing to lose if you want to try AAISP (is that who used to be called Andrews & Arnold, incidentally)?
Likewise I cannot see any engineering reason for the Profiling method BT use , the commercial one would be to reduce the repeated packets caused by resends/noise etc taking up bandwidth. Also I guess it keeps loads of "jobs worths " in employ at BT managing the system. The 21CN network will reduce BT overheads massively and this along with quite large increases in wholesale prices will no doubt boost my dividend on my incredibly lowly valued few BT shares!!
Yes AAisp is Andrews and Arnold , this is a wrong place to do any selling but do check them out and try the Thinkbroadband recent news article on them.
Thanks to Sebby and Rik . Karma being sent.
HAIRYMAN
Quote from: hairyman on Apr 07, 2009, 19:36:20
Yes AAisp is Andrews and Arnold , this is a wrong place to do any selling but do check them out and try the Thinkbroadband recent news on them.
I'd almost encourage you to give them a go as I'd be interested to see how you get on. :)
I recently posted over on iDNatter regarding A & A and their 'continuous monitoring' system. I'm not sure it would have any advantages over an ISP such as iDNet who have a good relationship with BT and use the same tools. In effect as Simon_idnet says, they do part of BTs job for them.
Whilst the A & A approach 'may' have some advantages, for best results it appears to use a proprietary firewall - the Firebrick' - designed by themselves and Watchfront. See here. (http://www.firebrick.co.uk/about.php) These aren't cheap, although if they're aimed at corporates it's probably par for the course.
Date Downstream Upstream Connection
07/04/09 20:36 3049.66 Kbps 373.91 Kbps IDnet
Just did a Thinkbroadband speedcheck it shows the tp at 3meg , funny that the IPprofile was 1500k just two days ago. The profile went back to 4meg about a week ago then dropped after 4 disconnects back to 1500k where it remained until maybe yesterday.
I will try to persuade the BT speedtester to let me know the current state of play, meanwhile it looks like rain for the weekend , that should dampen the rubbish "twisted pair" joints? Thanks to any good gremlin for pressing some button somewhere if that is what happened , or thanks to the great but unnecessary god of IPprofiling if it was based on some program.
HAIRYMAN
It might just be worth giving a 2700 a try, Hairy. Once you've done that from the test socket, you've eliminated any possibility it's at your side of the master, and can get IDNet to call in BT without fear of charging. It would be worth running Routerstats too, to document the drops.
I I have tried the other router ( Creative BB Blaster!) with similar results.
Just had 21 drop outs in 3 days so tput is now down to 1200k ish with a IPprofile of 1500kbps , I might ask IDnet to put me on a fixed 2meg service . Still think the solution is to move ISP to see if they have a better method of fixing a poor line. I picked up the phone the other day and got a complete gamut of squeaks, wails and pops , basically it sounded like the line is picking up LF atmospherics generated by I seem to remember the "northern lights" . The line was unusable but BT say it is OK as they can only do one test at one time.
As I only live 400metres from the exchange and all the cable is underground this shows that these signals are VLF and can penetrate underground ( these frequencies can reach submarines hundreds of metres below the sea surface. The poor cable jointing ( difficult if it is really aluminium/copper ) will rectify radio signals into audio frequency noises ( detected) .
Router Stats before reboot tonight______________
Item Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin 28.0 17.0 dB
Line Attenuation 42.1 26.0 dB
Errored Seconds 157 17
Loss of Signal 21 21
Loss of Frame 1 0
CRC Errors 0 0
Data Rate 3008 448 kbps
Latency INTERLEAVED INTERLEAVED
Router Stats after reboot
Item Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin 16.5 16.0 dB
Line Attenuation 37.8 23.5 dB
Errored Seconds 0 0
Loss of Signal 0 0
Loss of Frame 0 0
CRC Errors 0 0
Data Rate 6304 448 kbps
Latency INTERLEAVED INTERLEAVED
BT speedtest from a couple of days ago
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6336 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 1500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1356 kbps
Currently I am at point where I dont use the phone or bother much with the net , a borrowed 3G dongle shows the way forward as you can get 15Gb a month for £15 a month on a 24 mnth contract , ie three times the downloads of IDnet for a little less than £3 saving. Speeds here on O2/Voda are fair , they are concluding a network sharing business I understand , and 3 and T-mob are doing the same T mobile has good coverage here not sure on 3G though. Feels like I am being ripped off for my current £33 monthly basic telecoms spend.
I will research where to get a 2700 router for a bit of a laugh/technical exercise?
Any ideas any one.
HAIRYMAN
There are plenty of 2700's on eBay starting from 1p. Use this link and search for 2700hgv http://www.buyui.com/
Vodaphone have just signed a deal with Ericsson, for them to manage their network, much like Ericsson now do with Three. MBNL, are in the early stages of rolling out 97% coverage by land mass, for a combined T-Mobile/Three 3G service.
If you can hear noise on the line, Hairy, try disconnecting the router and see if it stops. It could be your filter has failed.
If its a filter go for a faceplate one if possible like the adsl nation one (broadbandbuyer have one branded with their name now) they help a lot, when I had a long line at my old home the 2700 really did the trick. Alos if you are using a Netgear at all or have one try the DGteam firmwares, they have spent the time and effort to take the buggy Netgear firmwares and improve them, including a slider for SNR which may help you. http://dgteam.ilbello.com/ I'm running version 0850 with the updated adsl driver, for DG834N and it has so many more features, and the very latest broadcom adsl drivers which includes phyRe technology & impulse noise reduction support, something Netgear never bothered to implement.
Quote from: Glenn on Apr 15, 2009, 20:47:30
There are plenty of 2700's on eBay starting from 1p. Use this link and search for 2700hgv http://www.buyui.com/
Current advice (http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=12429.msg323598#msg323598) seems to be to get a V5, and avoid ones with the latest (V6) firmware.
Hi Gary
I have used a ADSL nation filtered faceplate for two years , the noise I call "sky noise" ie the squeaks and long swooping tones is there now and again. The crackles are are adsl based and happen as the SNRs go low mostly on the upstream link, I suspect they are caused by rectification in poor joints. I have tried many filters before I fitted the ADSL faceplate and even double filtering the phone and router makes no difference. Most of the time the line is quiet and the bb syncs at up to 7.6meg meg at 9db SNR . The SNRs vary and the line attenuation jump around by up to about 5db.
Could I emphasise this noise has been present since I was transfered to 8meg MAX ( is it three years or four years ago now??) . We now have had heavy rain all day the first for many weeks, the line noise gets better when it is wet and the BT ducts are full of water. I live 400 mtrs from the exchange line of sight or maybe 1 / 1.2 km by the worst case main road cable route.
I use A Zoom X5V router or a Creative BB Blaster and have tried other borrowed routers and USB modems. All give the same results. My first router was a Speedtouch and gave similar results until it died of old age or getting fed up of the grotty line.
HAIRYMAN
Speed Test Results
Date 16/04/09 20:54:06
Speed Down 3487.38 Kbps ( 3.4 Mbps )
Speed Up 373.70 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server speedtest1.thinkbroadband.com
Just done a speedtest and I am back to 3.5meg , how can it drop to 1.2meg from 4meg then back to 3meg plus all within a few days , the IPprofile seems to have tracked this as well ( generally I get 60% of the IPprofile as peak actual Throughput with drops to 40% in mid evening or early weekday mornings which seem the most contended times).
I thought the profile was fixed for 5 days ish before a change upwards.
I will go away and do a BT test .
Regards
HAIRY
When I checked the IPprofile last it was set at 1.5meg .
This is a case, Hairy, of a frustrated IDNET customer that needs some practical muscle from IDNET not A&A. The forum has pretty much hit all the usual causes and you are going in circles, soon to be hairless. We need some positive action here.
In my opinion, an exchange distance of 400 metres should give good performance and an attenuation better than 37dB. The fact that the attenuation is high and variable, that there is audible noise on the line, that there is repeated loss of sync which can sometimes be quite good, all points to a basic line problem. We need not be concerned about profiles, two wire routers or esoteric radiations.
If this was my line and I was seeing this performance, having tested at the primary socket with a proven good modem & filter and no other connection whatever but a traditional phone, I would press IDNET to have BT investigate. I would certainly not accept any charge if BT agree that the weight of evidence indicates a line fault, whether one is found on the day or not.
I would probably do patient quiet line testing and maybe check line DC voltage to build a case. If the DC voltage is way low, unstable or falls dramatically when lifting the receiver of a traditional phone I would be asking why. Cordless phones and modems draw little or no line current and will work to a point with high resistance joints. Some say broadband will even work with an open line return.
Anyway, Hairy, assuming you have done your bit and eliminated your equipment, it is time to cut to the chase and press IDNET get a grip on BT and no excuses.
Cheers, Dave
To be fair, although I can't comment on exactly what they have done, I don't think IDNet have exactly ignored this issue. They do have good contacts within BT, and can usually get things sorted. Admittedly, that doesn't explain why Hairy still has the problem, and, obviously, further investigation is needed.
I don't know what contact Hairy has had with IDNet, but I will alert them to this thread. :)
One of the problems we have is that most problems are user equipment or laws of physics related and this forum is second to none in helping customers resolve them. Moreover, IDNET do not compound these problems because they keep their own house in very good order. As a result customers can easily believe they should keep on looking for a solution, even when the problem is outside their control. When the problem is not self-inflicted or a matter of physics, however, we really need IDNET to take up the case with BT. In return, we users better be sure we do not cry wolf.
Hi All
I may be a Hairyman but not a WereWolf.
The IPprofile has bounced back to 5500kbps, it was 1500 three days ago and 4500 a week ago and about ten days ago 1500k , how come all the changes? I think these changes are beyond the range of automatic IPprofile control so I assume someone has reset them?
If so thanks to BT/Idnet, the voice line has a simple phone on it , I have checked the line voltage it was spot on, but I will check it with say a 3 or 4REN load equivalent , I will borrow the calibrated resistance load from the lab at work ( I work in electrical / electronic equipment calibration and build) and load it up. The line length could be 1.2km if it followed the long road route but as far as I can see there are green roadside boxes all the way to the main road ducting.
BT always say they can charge for a visit but decline to say on what basis. They have called from the exchange over a mobile to mobile to mobile call when checking the bb connection, this was several years ago when I was with Eclipse Internet and on Max , they said they would call to check outside but just did a visual check outside the property at the grey termination box. On another visit they fitted a modern mastersocket ( NTE5?) with the split type face plate.
I only have a mastersocket , router stats remain the same when I have a simple phone or DECT phone plus answerphone combo connected. I cannot hear any significant MW/LW noise on a radio moved around the house and near cabling. I have a simple central heating system with no fancy peizo igniter's and my immediate neighbour is similarly old fashioned, these can make noise. The fridges have been tested for electrical noise.
I could borrow the spectrum analyser and trace recorder and see what RF is around here but I cant see any large CB/Radio amateur aerials nearby ( I am an inactive licenced radio amateur so know what a bit of RF into BB or any modern PC/telecoms gear can do).
I do know IDnet have been very active in this issue, but I hope you all can appreciate there is no solution as of now. If I was miles from the exchange I could understand. One of my close friends son uses BB on our exchange but with a 3.5km line gets a solid 3meg tput in the evenings with only occasional dips and peaks from this.
I have ( if you have the patience to looks back through the full thread!!!) emailed Ian Livingstone and been called at home by the MD of BT Wholesale on a Sat morning from his home , he apologised for his young children in the background. The line did improve I lost 3db of line attenuation and they put me on a less contended VP ( probably an Office/Business one?) which got the regular tput up nearer the Sync speed from a level often below 25% of the Sync/IPprofile. This has brought the average tp up from below one meg to nearer the Uk average of three meg.
The trouble is with the recent 52 disconnects in a few hours then over 20 in a few days on a regular basis the line goes back to a crawl.
I do live away from a big city but am hardly in the "sticks" and others locally get better more reliable links with ISPs with poor speed ratings.
I will try to call IDnet tommorrow but frankly I am starting to think its a waste of effort as this saga is now many years old.
BT test below from tonight 16/04/2009
Hairyman
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6304 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4194 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
TBH, Hairy, the profile seems to be responding quickly because you are getting large changes in sync speed, which is how it's designed to work. You need to talk to support and let them try to fix it.
Hi Hairyman
As discussed previously the Profile for your line will rise and fall to follow any changes in line characteristics. Unfortunately your line appears to experience many large fluctuations and hence changes in Profile and throughput. BT state that the DLM is functioning correctly for your line by adapting to changing conditions. The question is: 'what causes the changing conditions' and I think that your asessment may well be correct in suspecting the quality of the cable (and joints) between your property and the exchange. I am afraid that there is not a resolution to this that we can provide, BT will not replace the cabling as they regard the ADSL service as operating within normal limits.
We can artificially increase the noise margin for you in order to improve stability but this will, naturally, reduce your speed. Or, you can revert to the fixed-rate service that you had before ADSL Max.
Given the high cost of a BT Engineer visit (that we would expect to result in a "no fault found") I would hazard that the most cost-effective course of action for you would be to order a new phone line from BT and then to move your broadband service (and telephone number) to the new line.
Regards
Simon
Thanks, Simon. Although you don't mention it, I would add that ordering a new line through IDNet is cheaper than ordering through BT. :)
Apologies for jumping into what must be hair pulling experience (no pun intended) at such a late stage but reading back a few posts something stood out that seems to point to an obvious solution. If you have noise on the line when using the phone and have eliminated problems inside of your property then surely you just need to report a faulty line to BT? I haven't read through the entire thread but setting aside the issue of whether or not your line is suitable for sustaining ADSL you should not get 'squeaks, wails and pops' when using the phone.
It sounds like you need a new twisted pair and in my humble opinion if IDNet cannot drag a more stable connection out of the current cable then no other ISP will be able to either. If BT insist that the line is up to standard for phone use then your only option is a to order a second line or go with a cable supplier.
Again, it's a long thread and I haven't read it all so apologies if this has already been suggested and done, but it seems to me you should report it as a phone fault.
Hairy is reporting "52 disconnects in a few hours." If that cannot persuade BT to survey the line then nothing will. To suggest this is within "normal limits" is laughable. All we need so close to the exchange is a half decent voice line and Hairy has not got it. To charge for an engineer is near criminal. To buy a new line would be abject submission. If we consumers and our best of breed ISPs just roll over BT will never change.
davej99, it was that instability that caused the DLM to raise the noise margin and hence the Profile was lowered - the DLM was reacting to the change in line condition. After the line stabilised again, the Profile rose. The history of this line shows that the Profile might likely remains stable now for quite a while. But then it may experience another noise episode. That the voice quality is poor is certainly something that BT Retail could investigate - an audibly noisy line will adversely affect the DSL signal.
Simon
HI Dave
Thanks for yr support , to some extent Simon is correct, we have just finished a long dry spell , basically we have had little rain/snow since the big fall of snow in Feb ( the garden was showing the signs with cracks and lack of grass growing) , this week we had a good steady rain over two days. This will result in the underground cables getting a good drenching in their ducts and if the normal pattern follows the noisy line and drop outs will minimise.
The line noise is very persistant but intermittant. When it is bad I cannot here my wife when I call her at home from work ( so some plus points to the situation !!!!) . Most of the time it is OK so whenever they do a line test it is passed OK , I think they have been out checking my line as we have had a lot of blank calls from a BT freephone number in the last few weeks.
The line attn remains 38db downstream for the 400mtrs exchange LOS distance. The current sync is 6400kbps at a SNR of 17db , when the line malfunctions I get downstream SNRs to 5 to 7db but mainly the upstream SNR drops to zero .
On the subject of a new line , they would have to dig up one hundred yards of road and a large part of my garden / drive both just remodelled ?? !!! This would not be too popular and is it likely. Also I am on a BT phone contract tied in until August/Sept would this affect the new line and transfer of the Phone to it ?? Could I request a line then transfer the the bb to it try it out if better!!! could I then move my BT number and contract to it??
I did pay £150 all those years ago to get 512kbps bb installed.
I dont have a lot of spare cash to give to rich companies, with all my overtime cancelled until further notice , no pay rise last or this year and a request from my employers asking us to volunteer for less basic hours for less income, this is better than Renishaws another local high tech company that has just cut wages by 20% and laid of 400 staff despite making 20million profit from 200mill turnover in 2008!!!. At least my company still seems stable as aerospace orders are based on long lead times.
BT faults insist they will charge £160ish if an engineer turns out and finds no faults during a short ( up to two hour? visit).
This I have told them to place where the sun dont shine.
Hi Simon
Thanks for your behind the scenes help , I assume the rapid Profile changes over just a day or two are a result of some intervention as they happen over just a few days from up to down to up and down again, anyway long may it rain!! Shame its sunny this weekend but I can look forward to rain next week?
HAIRY
Quote from: hairyman on Apr 18, 2009, 12:57:12
When it is bad I cannot here my wife when I call her at home from work ( so some plus points to the situation !!!!)
:clever:
Quote from: hairyman on Apr 18, 2009, 12:57:12The line noise is very persistant but intermittant. When it is bad I cannot here my wife when I call her at home from work ( so some plus points to the situation !!!!). Most of the time it is OK so whenever they do a line test it is passed OK ....
Hairy, it seems to me your problem is a simple voice fault and the best prospect is to pursue this yourself with BT. I would call BT every time you get line noise and log the call. Do not report an ADSL fault, but noise on the line which makes conversation hard. The trick is to get BT on the line when it happens so they can hear it for themselves.
To do that you need to be ready with a non-powered phone and call BT faults with no other connection to your master socket so they can confirm the noise. I do not believe that automatic line testing will necessarily catch the problem. This mean family members will have to do this when you are at work. You might want to call home check the line, hope for noise and then call BT. Keep a log by the phone.
You do not have to demand a visit and risk a charge, but simply insist they fix the noise you are hearing. I would make it clear you do not expect to pay anything at all if you want to feel reassured. Do not mention broadband, because technically you do not have an ADSL fault. DC Voice and RF ADSL are separate products. It may take weeks to build your case by logging and phoning, logging and phoning until BT get to hear the noise and agree to fix it. Remember BT are wise to users who report voice faults to get better broadband, However you seem have a genuine case.
It looks like IDNET have done all they can, but they cannot address voice faults. That falls to the subscriber. However, I am sure you are tenacious enough to grind down BT and win the day.
Good luck
Dave
Hi Dave
Thanks for yr useful advice. I will connect up the simple phone so it can be easily connected in by a simple real time switch over. The line noise occurred today and drowned out my Mum who was calling ( another plus point as she wanted me to cut her lawn). I happened to be watching the routers stats page at the time and the upstream SNR dropped a bit but the downstream SNR fell from 17db to below 7db , it didn't disconnect but must have been close.
I reported the noise to BT almost immediately but a line test showed it OK. I went on the BT website and formally via the complaints link lodged a dispute resolution request. Within a few hours an Indian call centre lady called asking about the problem, I said the problem had been ongoing for three plus years and while I was happy for her to test the line again I would prefer to speak to an engineer or a senior manager. She said she could transfer me to a UK engineer. A guy called Alex called back within 10 minutes ( this is on a Sunday afternoon) he went through a test which showed OK. I went through all the history of the voice line problems and asked to escalate this to a manager and to the dispute resolution procedure.
He put me on hold and came back saying he couldn't get involved in anything beyond line testing and asking me for permission to potentially be charged for a call out if the fault was not found or was beyond the socket. But he had ascertained the was a dispute resolution procedure and he would escalate it beyond his dept.I will report back if anything happens!!
I see this a joint voice line and bb problem as BT own both it being the same line carrying both signals, voice is a 300Hz to 3000Hz and bb a few tens of KHz up to 2Mhz in multiplexed chunks. Any fault on the line will kill either. BT silly IPprofiling system makes intermittant faults on the line have a multiday effect on the datarate. I pay for BT to carry both signals , the voice is directly paid by me and the bb indirectly via IDnet. BT provide 90% of the system for ISPs using Ipstream and charge IDnet for the copper and all the exchange hardware and the main highway and all the interconnects into their servers.
I have insisted they fix the line fault and I will accept no charge , they can test Free Of Charge outside my house on the grey terminal box , just six inches where leaves the ground as my mastersocket is only 30 inches from this. My router and PC are just above this box as the cable goes straight thro the cavity wall to my one and only socket in the house a modern split faceplate master . My router has about one metre on cable to the mastersocket them just a few inches throu the wall to the grey box outside.
I will call in the noise everytime it occurs and attempt the discipline of keeping a log then see how much time they are willing to spend on playing about. I will also write to then giving them a fixed time to start a repair after which I will escalate it to Ottelo? I could suggest a small claims court appearance to them as I CONSIDER THE SERVICE THEY PROVIDE TO BE BELOW A FAIR STANDARD.
ANY other suggestions anyone.
I see some backward looking civil servant has suggested that BT/ other providers should at some future date be asked to raise the minimum acceptable Internet speed from 28.8Kbps !!! to 2meg !!! I assume the UK will be rolling back to the StoneAge soon. If we spent a tiny fraction of what we have given failed fraudulent BANKERS to bail them out we could have a proper telecoms system in the UK.
Regards
HAIRY
You're right about the poor infrastructure. With BT committing to upgrade a lot of their network to FTTC, things should get better over the next few years.
Whilst IDNet provide the broadband service, BT are 100% responsible for the line. I suspect that the voice fault is causing the trouble on the broadband side, and whilst I appreciate that it's been impossible thus fair, the voice fault needs to be resolved first, imho.
Well, Hairy, that was an interesting Sunday.
You have certainly heeded my advice and pursued a voice fault with BT. It is not surprising one was not found. Intermittent faults are cunning.
In dealing with BT, especially the front line engineers who handle your fault calls, I would always take a friendly line. You know you have a fault, the engineer probably believes you, but neither of you can deliver the proof that gets the tick in the box needed to have the line physically investigated. So my question to her/him would be, "what is the best way to show we have an intermittent fault and get remedial action." If you get a helpful response it (a) helps your diagnostics and (b) tacitly establishes you have a point. Then the next time you call and report another incidence you might say, "I have more information about the my intermittent problem." Remember, the person than answers the phone gets abused for a living and is unlikely to respond to pressure, but if you can develop a rapport you may get much needed inside track. If you escalate without some agreed evidence you will only get a brush off.
On the diagnostic side I suggest you log all details for use when calling BT. Here are a few points to think about and log.
(1) Does the noise only appear on incoming calls, or do you get it on outgoing too? The idea is that incoming perhaps stresses the line with ring AC, which I think adds to the DC.
(2) Have you been able to hear the noise by running the quiet line test (17070 option 2) at the master socket everything but the phone disconnected?
(3) Do you get problem after not using the phone for a while? The notion is that there has been no DC sealing current for a while and poor joints might go dry. I thought you mentioned you are not a heavy phone user. Of course then when you call BT the fault will have gone.
(4) Is there a local temp and weather correlation, which you have already alluded to.
(5) Any chance of recording the noise, with an answering machine perhaps?
For general interest in the Voice/BB distinction, what counts is how BT see it, not how we might view the science, or who we pay. BT seems to be partly organised to satisfy regulation and partly to satisfy business needs. My understanding is that Openreach is the last mile business, a bit like the gas distribution business. You get a leak Transco fix it otherwise you deal with your chosen gas supplier.
Openreach provides services to a range of voice and data carriers. You might choose voice from Sky, Broadband LLU from Carphone, both delivered by Openreach. You might get voice from TalkTalk and Broadband from an Entanet reseller like ADSL24, or from a BT Wholesale reseller like IDNET or BT Broadband. These are all connected by Openreach and there could from one to four BT businesses involved. Anyway you cut it the interactions are the same and regulation demands it is arms length. Some believe it can be internecine warefare and as a result customers have to be guided to the right place to get remedial action. IDNET, Sky, Carphone, BT Broadband or BT Wholesale are not going to fork out to fix dry joints. Openreach are not going to turn out for free to find a broadband problem or faulty user equipment. You get a voice line from Openreach and that is it. They are not funded to provide anything else. It's all stupid but that's the way it is.
Fortunately, Hairy, you are knocking on the right door. Good luck, Dave
One thing I would add, Dave, is to greet the engineer with an offer of a drink and, depending on the timing, biscuits to a bacon sarny - that kind of 'humanity' works wonders with people. :)
Absolutely. I will be round to your place directly. :food:
Steak, pasties or what? ;D
You mean, there are other choices?
Chicken, goose, lamb, pork, smoked salmon, egg & chips, pasta etc... :)
Far too much for you to manage by yourself, Rik! :whistle:
Give me time. ;D
Hi All
Its been a long time since my last post for a number of reasons.
Mainly I have been busy with a great holiday up in Sutherland on a fantastic beach campsite with great weather at a beach campsite with the wonderfull Assynt lochs and mountains around us. Plus I have been digging post holes and installing new fencing around my house a project nearly finished!!
Also I have found the net so frustrating at a snails pace that I rarely bother, still average ten disconnects a day and rising, we have just had a load of rain so the usual result is the connection will improve.
Just a reminder that I live only 400mtrs from the exchange and have only a mastersocket and one phone etc
BT speedtest below , Typical SNR downstream is 17db with 38db attn, both vary , I sometimes get voice line noise but the dropouts do not coincide with these.
BT say the line tests OK and flatly refuse to do anything more than remote tests without my written agreement to charges if they find no fault or faulty equipment at my end. Idnet say it is a line issue and can do no more. Catch 22 .
Hope you are all well and thanks for all the help.
Hairyman
Holiday snap attached ( one of 1186 taken while away at 3.6Gb total after jpegging !)
BT speed test below
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6176 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 1000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 904 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Nice pic! :)
It's evident from the 1000k profile that there's still a lot of instability on your line. Unfortunately, without agreeing to be charged if no fault's found, you're never going to get anywhere. Clearly there's a fault.
Quote from: hairyman on Jul 07, 2009, 19:36:03
BT say the line tests OK and flatly refuse to do anything more than remote tests without my written agreement to charges if they find no fault or faulty equipment at my end. Idnet say it is a line issue and can do no more. Catch 22 .
Check that all your internal wiring and equipment is up to scratch, then sign the agreement. Sounds fair enough to me.
From someone who has been in a similar situation, I can tell you that when BT have examined, more than once, your home and found nothing amiss, you'll be in a far better position to push for a resolution than if they haven't checked your home themselves.
If you think about it, and if it does transpire that they find a fault in your premises, the fee they charge you may well be money well spent if it solves your ongoing problems.
Hi Hairyman.
I was in this spot a few months after I got Max in London. It's not specific to countryside areas. IDNet did everything they could to help, but I was just lucky that one of my long letters got to a problem group in Ben Verwaayen's office.
I discovered that voice faults are addressed by a completely different bureaucracy from broadband faults. In fact, broadband is not a fault until it drops into 100s of K bps. This may change, but not to greater than 2M. Number of disconnects, I don't know, because I didn't have as many as you (three or four a night after a quiet week).
I also had audible noise concurrent with the broadband problem. Because of the stupid bb fault policy, I decided to try to get a survey (as I later learned it was called) of my voice service. I did not succeed. After four or five _very_ difficult fault report calls where I tried to get the agent to hear the crackling, I had _not_ succeeded in even getting them to say they heard it! I believe them. It's quite possible that their equipment cleaned up the sound, because they reported 'lost syllables' when I was asking them about the noise. On a few of these calls, the agent manually initiated line tests, which all came back OK. In light of subsequent events, I wrote a follow up to the executive problem group that included:
- Voice fault report agents cannot hear crackling that will destroy broadband. They might hear yours if you can get them to listen when it's bad. I could converse over my noise.
- The voice fault line tests do not include all of the voice path 'tie pairs' (connections of your line to various equipment) that can dump noise into your line and wreck your broadband.
I only learned the term 'line survey' after my month-old problem finally disrupted voice and dial tone and was then fixed. No one answered my repeated questions about intermittent fault investigation. I decided to take a chance and get an engineer visit. The day before the visit, my executive letter was answered. Voice went out the day of the visit. I'm still not sure whether this was luck or politics. By the way, broadband still worked at about 2/3 speed with one wire connected, even though voice wouldn't!
After several attempts by the exchange to get the engineer to tell them it was my problem, they found and fixed the broken tie pair in the exchange. For their part, the broadband fault department got Openreach to come out the next day and fixed a 'weathered' lead into the flat, just so they could report a different cause that _they_ rectified. That second engineer gave me a little insight to his world when he said he had to report some kind of fix, or his boss would insist I be charged. He also acted like a lawyer, not deciding whether to believe my story of the first engineer until he got back and checked the record.
If your problem is from a leaky cable, I don't know how you might get them to investigate it. I just count myself lucky, as I can still not see a process for getting BT Wholesale/Openreach to investigate intermittents in their network.
LLU may not fix your problem, which makes me wonder if you could get cable broadband.
Richard
I think i would risk the call out charge. I. A large number of cases, as long as you make the engineer happy with tea and offers of bacon sarnies then he will most likely find something to fix even if it doesn't need fixing!
I agree with the advice, Chris, I know it's easy to spend your money, but if you don't take the chance you are never going to resolve this one.
As has been said, most BT engineers are human. ;)
Hi All
I will decide what to do after the weekend. They did say that they would charge even if no fault was found ie no gain and lost cash!!
I will check the external wiring to see if they could "find a fault there" but its only 10 inches from the grey box to the point the cable goes underground and the cable from the outside grey box goes straight throu the wall about the same distance to the one and only mastersocket which is a ADSLnation splitter faceplate type. I have no other telephone wiring. The PC just above this as is the router.
One difficulty is that I would need to take a day off work to do the PR bit with an engineer ( I suspect my wife would give him an ear bending as the connection problems are worse for her as they mostly occur during the day , she is retired).
I have had to ring off when reporting faults as I cannot hear the operator but they still do nothing!! Often I ring home and I get noise on the line and what you describe as missing syllables a redial usually cures this or we revert to mobi to mobi.
Plus point is O2 hope to activate LLU at the exchange as new fibre has been installed to the exchange via the local main power sub station ( LLus dont use the profiling system that BT use I am told) and also O2 have installed a new mast very nearby currently not 3G but maybe they are awaiting the above fibre as well?
Ref Cable broadband the nearest is many miles away in Gloucester ( Virgin) there is none elsewhere until Bristol ( 25miles away). We have 7000lines on the exchange I think with other neighbouring exchanges having multiple LLU ( we have only Orange and CPW and BT)
Thanks again Simon, Rik, Lance, rireed3, Dopamine and Sebby.
Meanwhile BT phone charges have become ridiculous for the small amount I use it I have decided to try IDnets phone side when the BT contract runs out.
Hairyman
O2 LLU is good, but be aware that your issue, which is probably a line issue, will remain even if you move away from a BT product.
Hi Chris
Would mobile broadband be an option for you? As Seb says, the last mile remains the same, even if you go LLU, so unless BT do something about the cable, you are going nowhere fast. :( (Might be worth an email to BT's CEO...)
Hi Rik and Sebby
I will check 3g coverage again last time I looked we were in a low speed spot on all networks.
Recently the O2 signal on voice has gone up from two bars on the readout to six bars and I see they have installed a new mast less than 1km away and line of sight ( ish) not sure if it has data on it I will have to check.
Question --- reference --- LLu and BT , someone told me that LLus don't Ipprofile so my speeds wouldn't "bounce" up and down so much despite the dropouts/disconnects ?? True??
Another Question--- would dropping to a fixed 2meg service be possible with Idnet and is this profiled by BT as well ? When I was on 2meg prior to MAX I didn't really get any problems but I imagine the line has probably got worse since then rather than better!!
The way I see it the profilling is the thing cutting my speed for 99.5% of the time not the disconnect periods.
I will have another try to ask BT for a solution as I would prefer to stick with a landline and Idnet. I dont really want to move as I plan to be here for the rest of my allotted span. Maybe we will get cable ( some hope and probably too expensive and loads of ugly ripped up tarmac every where to install it)
Just got back from some mountain walking in Glencoe , weather fantastic a bit to hot and sunny for me but better than rain and high winds we often get up there!!
Hairyman
Hi hairy. It is correct that it is only BT who use a profiling system. On llu, the only limit is your sync speed!
As for reverting back to fixed speed, I'm not sure if BT still offer this to new customers (ie unless you already have it). If it doesn't say on their site, easiest thong would be to check with support.
That is correct, Hairy. It's only BT who insist on using the pointless system that is IP profiles.
Fixed speed products are still available, Hairy, but they are more expensive than Max. :(
Another good move by BT - force everyone onto rate-adaptive services, which turn out to be less stable, and ignore the fact that their infrastructure is falling to pieces. :rant2:
Hi Lance
Thanks for confirming that LLus don't profile , so i guess that the sync speed on my line will rise and fall as the line condition varies as it does now ( currently after a dropout/disconnect the sync can be say 2000k ish and a manual router reboot brings it up to 6500K , but sometimes the disconnect can be multiple and the sync remains at 6500K it must depend on the line condition when a reconnect is tried ) meanwhile I guess the IPpointless profile drops the tput. I assume LLu with no profiling will just reconnect at max speed at say 6db SNR and give best possible tput depending on their internal traffic management policy?
Rik ---- ref 2meg product I remember Idnet and before them Eclipse Internet put me back onto a 2meg fixed to clear profiles and check what was going on etc , I imagine this costs someone each time and I have seem 512/2meg products costing more than Max ( !!!???).
Sebby ---- Maybe "Less for more" should be a BT motto?
I have asked some of my neighbours and most say they get below 2meg tput at best so It looks like our exchange and cabling are poor. I have noticed more trenching and corrugated ducts being installed in the High Street with temp traffic lights so maybe something is coming!! ( Torchwoods 456?)
Thanks all
Hairyman
Tonights BT speed test show it recovered since last weeks test..( also below
Tonight test
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6336 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3779 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
Last weeks test
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6176 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 1000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 904 kbps
I'm excited about FTTC myself. I think that's going to really help this dire situation.
It might be FTTC but we are not on the published list I would guess FTTC here will come around the 12th of never.
The trench seemed to cross a couple of major roads and head from the main Power company transforming switching substation ( a big place about two acres in size) currently its stopped outside the local big private boarding school but the BT exchange is very near here as well . Maybe the school needs fibre direct , they certainly have unlimited money as they can charge up £10k a term. I will pop down and have a look, the duct was too small for anything other than data.
Hairyman
Are you aware of the second FTTC exchange announcement?
Hi Sebby
Yes I did quickly scan the new FttC list but couldn't see any where even near here.
I have had only 2 disconnects in 24 hours , since my last BT speedtest. I noticed the sync back down at 2016kbps with downsteam SNR of 30db and line attn of 38db along with the three disconnects. I did a slow reboot leaving the router off for quite a while .
It reconnected at 6300kbps syncs and the SNR back at 14 to 17db but actual throughputs were the same at 1500kbps using thinkbroadband. Bt test done as below. Back to the usual? I am suprised that two drops in 24rs caused the IP to go down from 5500k yesterday to 1750kbps today . As usual very annoying as I only live 400mtrs from the exchange!
Reading the recent posts it looks like the net is in semi meltdown. Perhaps we are due a major outage like the four day one we had over the Whitsun weekend back in May when I lost the PPP link due to BT messing around in Kingston I think.
Hairyman
BT test done a few minutes b4 this post
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6240 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 1750 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1541 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
One drop can cause your profile to fall, Hairy.
Hi Rik
Just completed a BT speedtest as below my IPprofile is back to 5500k , yesterday it was 1750k the day before that it was at5500k surely BTs system shouldn't allow "bounces" like this , what would be the point of this over this period. I had two dropouts between Monday and Tuesday evenings and none since , today is Wednesday. Seems like the profiling system is purely a way of annoying customers who are already suffering with defective BT lines and exchanges.
How is the Id network today I see the status on the website is still sub optimum.
Regards
Hairyman
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6304 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4353 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
The BT system does allow bounces of this nature. Small changes in speed will take up to 5 days to be reflected in the profile (it drops immediately, but takes hours or days to recover).
The sub-optimal announcement refers to the imbalance following the central failure on Tuesday. It's settling down as people move, or are moved, back to the original central.
Hi Rik
Been busy the last few days so hardly turned on this PC. The few tests I have done show the BTspeedtest bouncing up and down.
Currently the Ipprofile is as below but it has been down at 1750kbps and back up to 5500kbps. Only one disconnect shown here in 8 days though. The BT profiling method seems to randomly ramp up and down the speed , strange system. Why does it exist , to me it seems like some engineers nightmare put into action! I assume it is designed to reduce the network speed to a level that the BT infrastructure can cope with a minimum resending of data due to failed packets.
I am transfering my phone service to Idnet as the cost with BT have risen massively in the last two years also Idnets service is approx 1000% better than BT India.
Do we know the technical reason why BT use profiling and the LLus don't. Or even just why BT use it at all?
Hairyman
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6816 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4558 kbps
Hi hairy.
The profile will only change down due to a resync, so if yours has been bouncing then you must have had more than 1 disconnect in 8 days.
As for why BT use profiles, my guess is to reduce required capacity. If you think about it, suppose on average the profile knocks 400k of the sync, and 100,000 users were on the same backhaul/node, that would be 400,000,000k saved (400gb if my maths is right!). I have obviously assumed 1000k is 1mb rather than 1024k. Either way, that would be a lot of money saved on reduced infrastructure.
But if you have a couple of 'accidents' like a thunderstorm or a stuttering power cut, why must they punish you for days?
Also, why on earth do they have to see two weeks of steady connection to reduce a raised target noise margin?
I've tried to speculate about traffic flow, as in congested motorways that stop and start, but I haven't really heard an explanation.
I suspect it's just theft :mad:
Richard
Hi
Yes as its BT I guess theft is the likely reason. We have to pay the eight figure salary of the CEO somehow as well.
Bring back the good old GPO , they may have moved slowly but at least we got a good integrated system of communications.
Cant quite see how dropping the Profile saves data transfer as the overall download say just takes longer at a lower speed the data transfered remains the same. All it does is prevent the network potentially saturating with resent data due to duff data packets caused by lost bits?
Hairyman
The reason it takes up to 5 days and 14 days respectively is so that the load is off BTs infrstructure for longer.
You're right hairy about the amount of data being the same, but it is in terms of concurrent connections it affects.
A reduced profile doesn't effect errors on a line and therefore the number of retransmits would be the same with a low, high or no profile.
Lance is right, if BT can reduce the throughput on their backhaul, it saves them money, so they do. The wait to restore the profile also saves them a bit in computing power on the DLM side. It's purely about BT profits.
Quote from: Rik on Jul 24, 2009, 09:52:11
It's purely about BT profits.
What profits? ;D
;D
Profits go towards , sacking BT staff, Ian Livingthings salary and preferential shares, and winding up BT pension schemes etc. :bartmoon: :rub:
Great share price!!!
Ref profiling I assume dropping the profile in response to line noise, enables BT to reduce the wasted resent data that would occur without profiling.
How does the system work on LLus , they must just set sync rates in response to line SNRs then just give best effort? ???
The BT system is mad I have had eight dropouts in the last 24hrs but the Profile remains at 5500K and the sync has gone up to 6900 from 6400 with the SNR down from 17db to 14db to match. Previously one drop in three days dropped the Profile from 5500 to 1750 ???
Maybe some kind engineer is intervening? :thumb:
Maybe IPprofiling is just bad and unnecessary moo poo? :pillow:
Hairyman
What happens is that, on both BT and llu, the sync speed is determined by the noise on the line at the exact moment sync is negotiated. On llu, that's it and you get the best effort up to the sync. On BT, they add the profile to limit throughput.
The way BT work with errors is to increase the default target noise margin in 3db stages from 6 to 15 and when the noise margin gets higher sync gets lower. Lower sync should give more stability and therefore reduce errors. The profile is purely related to sync so even if you have, say, three reconnects as long as they are all within the same profile band the profile will remain the same. If one was a low sync, the prolfile would drop to reflect this and take up to 5 days to recover.
Hope this helps explain the relationship between sync and profiles!
Hi Again
-------------------------------
Lance -- Just seen your reply Thanks for that I did understand the sync / profile link correctly then , the bit about the resync rate after a dropout explains my problem as it trys to reconnects while the line noise is still present rather than wait 10 seconds or whatever to reconnect. My line noise is intermittant but persistant , it is often audible on the voice line but the drops and voice noise are not always coincident. The noise lasts maybe 10 seconds then goes for between a few minutes to several weeks. Usually the drops are less frequent after and during rainy spells ( all the cables are underground).
The line attn down stream is 37db over the less than 1km actual line length to the exchange.
-------------------------------------------------------
BT speedtest done tonight , don't forget I am 400mtrs from the exchange ( Line of site distance). I have had 8 disconnects in 24hrs but the profile remains 5500k usually it would be down at 1500/1750k after these.
Maybe they have been doing some work on the line? or with SNRs etc. For the last six months at least my "normal" SNR has been set at 15 to 17db to try to reduce the disconnects.
Just connected up a spare router modem to see how that performs now. Its a very expensive ( £9.99 !! ) Creative one as opposed to the Zoom X5V I normally use.
The router stats seem the same on both routers.
The Actual throughput is very good tonight , probably the best I have seen from a BT test. The net normally gets faster in the mid / late evening and at weekends , speeds drops and disconnects are generally worse in weekday daytimes?
Hairyman
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6656 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 5135 kbps
If your 8 resyncs all trained at the same sort of sync, then the profile won't drop.
That speedtest isn't too bad, certainly better than my line can do!
Yes tonights tputs are very good , more than acceptable!!
Normal good tputs are 2 to 3.5 meg when the Profile is at 5.5meg.
The trouble occurs when the Profile drops to 1500k or 1750k and the tput below that, then it stays that way for one day to over a week.
I would be happy with a stable 2 to 3meg actual tput and a quiet voice line.
Hairyman
Profiling is totally unnecessary, Hairy, it's purely for BT's convenience. Sometimes, profiles stick high as well as low. Sadly, BT always seem to notice eventually. :(
Hi Rik
Yes I think BT is probably unnecessary as well as the Profiling system.
BT Speedtest below is more typical of tputs we get here. Usually about 33% of the IPprofiling limit. Probably high congestion on the BT system. I did one as the net seemed slow and I couldn't get a smooth video stream from CH4 .
Why don't we all rename The IPprofiling system for what it is a traffic management system along with the pathetically equipped exchanges they run.
Hairyman
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6880 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1757 kbps
It's not just affecting IDNet either, Hairy, I saw an almost identical report from a Plusnet customer over on ThinkBroadband yesterday. :(
Hi Rik and Idnetters
BT are the pits and are dragging down good ISPs like IDnet down to the lowest common denominator ( Talk Talk , Orange, and BTs own service).
Its rained hard for most of today here in Gloucestershire. This normally quietens down my line which normally gets worse in dry spells.
Today was the reverse and I had so many disconnects the router I think gave up and needed a full power off type reboot to get any connection at all . The idiot BT profile system now sees the profile as 1000k down from a normal max of 5500k at 6500k sync. Downstream SNRs are 16db at 6500k after a reboot.
Router connection page is attached as a pdf.
The line noise was quite noticeable but on incoming audio only while I talked with Simon at IDnet just B4 6pm tonight.
Idnets main suggestion is to order up a new line?
Choices are
1) Order a new line cost £100 plus which will probably involve digging up my garden or drive or paving all fairly unacceptable!!
2) Call out BT faults and take a likely £100 charge when they find no fault ( as the noise is very intermittant but persistant over three plus years now)
3) Find an ISP that provides a 2meg fixed service and loose the profiling. ( Or get the SNR fixed at say 24Db rather than the current 15Db level at which BT / Idnet have asked for it to be fixed to "stabilise the line").
4) Move to Talk Talk or Orange as the only LLus on the exchange and loose the profiling. Neither very attractive options and a min 1yr tie in? Cant understand why O2/Be are not available as all similar size surrounding exchanges have them , maybe they have seen the line data here from their Ipstream customers here?
5) Try AAiSP who say they can help they say ordering a new line is a waste of cash?
6) Just take the cheapest option as currently I don't need a premium service on a rubbish BT line.
I live in a town in a fairly highly populated county the exchange is 400mtrs away and its even fairly modern.I can only feel for those in the real country where speeds of 128/256k are all they can get, this covers a huge chunk of the UK. 3G type internet is poor here although Vodaphone is rumoured to have improved coverage here recently. Again checking the 3G and landline not spots on the coverage maps shows they are nearly identical!!
Question---- Does any one know of a Router modem where the time from a disconnect to an attempted reconnect can be adjusted from the default few seconds. I believe if I could increase this time, the highly intermittant but persistant line noise would be clear on a reconnect. Currently both routers I have try to reconnect while the noise period ( typically less than ten seconds) is still there so a low sync is made or indeed none at all.
Hairyman
BT speedtest tonight as below--------------
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6208 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 1000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 888 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
Router connection stats attached below.
[attachment deleted by admin]
We can downgrade your line to the fixed-rate 1Mbps or 2Mbps service if you wish. That won't fix the audible noise that you can hear on the line though.
Simon
It's a shame that BT won't acknowledge an issue. Noise on the line suggests a problem to me.
Until the noise is fixed, Hairy's not going anywhere.
As someone who has had direct experience of audible voice line noise, and BT pretending that there's no problem, I sympathise.
Everytime I heard such noise I used to ring up BT and complain. They sent out engineers who always said it was 'within spec'. How can it be 'within spec' when you can hear the loud crackling on the line?
At some point over an 18 month period someone finally decided there was a problem and that they would fix it. Several weeks and line staff later it was fixed for good and compensation was gratefully received.
I'd just keep pestering until you get what you want, or send an e-mail to BT's CEO if you want more direct action.
QuoteHow can it be 'within spec' when you can hear the loud crackling on the line?
They think it's not loud enough to interfere with conversation -- broadband doesn't count. :mad: :mad: :mad:
It's a political decision against 'public service', where something is considered important enought to provide even though it's costly to government funds. Broadband is not considered that important, so we have the Heath-Robinson ADSL approach on existing voice pairs and all kinds of things that BT don't have to fix unless voice is impaired.
Richard
A nice summary of the problem, Richard. BT aren't required to provide ADSL, so if they don't feel like it, they hide behind the current USO. :(
Quote from: rireed3 on Jul 30, 2009, 00:13:56
They think it's not loud enough to interfere with conversation -- broadband doesn't count. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Who mentioned broadband? Not me. Strictly voice communications. Loud crackling on the line isn't acceptable. IIRC Hairy has to replace the receiver 'cos he can't carry on a telephone conversation. Saying that is 'within spec' is a load of round objects. I wouldn't stand for it, certainly not for 3 years. :shake:
"What we have heeyah is a failyah to communicate." :evil:
;D
Hi All
Thanks for the comments and advice.
The line noise was very bad at around 1700 to 1800 hrs tonight. The broadband dropped and disconnected every time I picked up a dial tone or put the line down. I changed the filter and swapped phones and it was just the same.
I only have a mastersocket with no other phone wiring. I switched the replacement phone ( an simple one that needs no power source other than the line volts) over to pulse dial and gave it a few hundred number 8 to chew on. This should put some stress on the line and pulls some current down it.
This seemed to have no effect straight away but now at 1845hrs and after scoffing my diner the bb drops on picking up a line have gone?
The bb still is Cr*p with less than one meg tput not bad for the 400mtrs to the exchange!!
The voice line noise is very bad when it is there but like the bb drops intermittant and but persistant.
BT persistantly say there is no detectable line problem on a remote test. They have stated they will charge if they turn out and find no fault with their gear including finding no fault at all.
BT flat refuse to provide any physical help they even have ignored my written and emailed complaints. All they seem to do is remote tests!
Hopefully BT will fail soon as their pension shortfall is now reported to be at least 12 billion quid and there are no signs of profits to build it up. Plus they have laid off or planned laying off thousands of staff.
The line noise problem is not so much of a problem now as we use the phone only for a few ( though longish) calls a month mostly we use £10 a month Tesco contract mobis to get our 400min/month to each other and family on the shorter important calls. These are more reliable being clearer and less distorted than BTs copper cr*p.
Mainly we like to browse the net and watch the occasional 4OD or iPlayer TV programme. IDnets 5gig a month is plenty mostly we use 1 to 2 gig a month.
Question ___ I assume switching to a fixed service ( 2meg ) would have no profiling involved ? Would it cost the same?
When I had a fixed 2meg speed before BT foisted the 8megMAX farce on us I used to get 2272Kbps Sync and consistent SNRs of 30plus DB and tputs of 1800/1900Kbps day and night. But that was before BB was popular and most were still on dialup if at all.
Hairyman
PS Phone billing transfered to IDnet tomorrow ( 31st July) so at least least the calls and rental will be cheaper and there will be "real" people to deal with the service rather than script followers in foreign parts.
The PS might be of help, since that's where you now report faults too.
IDNet can, for the moment, switch you to fixed rate, it costs them more from BT, but I think they charge the same as a Max package. In time, this will become impossible with 21CN/WBC, where everything will be based on a profiled rate-adaptive service.
TODAYS SPEEDTEST FROM BT BELOW-----
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6592 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 1000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 879 kbps
Hi Rik
Thanks for the helpful advice, I will probably go for the 2meg option with IDnet , it seems a bit daft that it costs more , don't think 21CN/WBC is due for 4 or 5 years around here.
I still have BTWholesales CEO mobile number from when he called me at home to discuss the problem way back last year I think. I could try another call there.
Failing that emailing BTs Mr Ian Livingthingy worked last time, well it got some sticking plaster fix that has since failed? Is he still there or been sacked yet with a 10mil payout ( standard practice?).
Alternative is try AAISP as IDnet seem to think the best option is to order up a new line, cannot see how that would be easy as there is only one working pair underground from my house to the GPO inspection cover over the road. I know the other pair on the cable failed about ten years ago as BT swapped me to the other pair when the line went dead for nearly two weeks. Both spare cables showed a short to ground I seem to remember( I might be tempted to check with a multimeter ). The cables are buried under, concrete, paving and tarmac.
Thanks again
Hairyman
Ian Livingstone is still there, but nowhere near as helpful as Uncle Ben used to be, Hairy. I think IDNet are working on the principle that BT would have to lay new cable, which might solve the problem.
The distance from my outside grey box to the manhole over the road is maybe 50yards . I assume in this manhole there will be spare ways they can try? The immediate area is about 25yrs old housing with no housing infill since then so I imagine there is a fair chance there. The "suspect extra pair " from here to the manhole is all underground and would need (a) the road digging up and (b) my new drive digging up ( no chance , thousands of quids) , maybe they could dig up more road and enter my property on the other side? We are on a corner plot so have two ( almost three actually) road frontages onto quiet cul de sacs both ways.
We shall see. I will see how the line goes over this weekend and call the nice people at IDnet on Monday. Probably a move to 2meg fixed is the best first option as that is better than spending half the time on sub one meg followed by 3 or maybe occasionally 5meg !!!!!!!.
The excitement is getting too much , so back to gardening, its not raining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hairyman
It's your call, so to speak. ;)
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6496 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4416 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
Hi Rik
Isn't the profiling scheme mad, I have had 13 disconnects in 24hours yet the profile has gone up from 1000kbps to 5000kbps . Likewise the tput has gone up five times.
Question-- I think a 2meg service will allow BBC iPlayer and 4od at std resolution -- am I correct?
At a one meg profile connection these dont work well.
Had a good look around the street last night the BT manhole is actually immediately across the road from the side of my house so only 8 mtrs or so to my outside wall ( on opposite side of the house to the current BT feed ). So if the problem is there no great difficulty , but I guess the fault is most likely elsewhere purely as a matter of chance and the line length involved, as there a presumably several other manholes and green boxes on the way down to the exchange!
Quote from: hairyman on Aug 01, 2009, 10:16:21
Isn't the profiling scheme mad, I have had 13 disconnects in 24hours yet the profile has gone up from 1000kbps to 5000kbps . Likewise the tput has gone up five times.
It's totally mad and totally unnecessary. >:(
QuoteQuestion-- I think a 2meg service will allow BBC iPlayer and 4od at std resolution -- am I correct?
No idea, I'm afraid, as I never use them.
QuoteHad a good look around the street last night the BT manhole is actually immediately across the road from the side of my house so only 8 mtrs or so to my outside wall ( on opposite side of the house to the current BT feed ). So if the problem is there no great difficulty , but I guess the fault is most likely elsewhere purely as a matter of chance and the line length involved, as there a presumably several other manholes and green boxes on the way down to the exchange!
Potentially, many. :(
Hi
I have just checked my phone line voltage .
Its 49.99volts "on the hook" and 16.73volts on picking up a call. This was while the line was quite noisy, also as soon as I picked up or put down the voice line the router SNR dips massively and mostly disconnects. Tried new filters and simple phone with no change.
Are the voltages about right for one phone and one router on the line????
The cables appear to be all copper at this end.
Hairyman
I believe the nominal phone voltage is 50V and the ringing voltage is 85V, Hairy. I've never seen a figure for 'in use'. What you're describing would suggest a faulty filter or something like an HR joint. Internal cables are always copper, aluminium was only ever used for the major runs.
50v DC is correct, not sure what it drops to when the call is answered though.
That seems to be the one voltage not mentioned anywhere.
Thanks Rik and Glen
I think the exchange puts the line voltage down from 50 volts to make the line "ring" ?
The cable into my outside box is just two pairs of copper wire into one steel wired armoured cable which I guess goes over the road tt the BT manhole? Probably the same for the other fifty or so houses up this end of the raod(s).
I will try to measure the voltage when the line is quiet and the router is not affected by the voice phone being on/off the hook. This would be the "normal" situation anyway.
Probably a high res joint somewhere as I have tried three or four filters,two routers and two phones.
Hairyman
No, it puts it up from 50 to create the ring. It might be worthwhile checking the voltage when the router is disconnected, Hairy.
Hi Rik
Thanks again have a karma.
Just checked the voltage with a quiet line and with the router now unaffected by the voice line going on/off the hook.
Voltages about the same at 49.98volts on hook and 16.46volts off hook. So no change there.
Removing the router made no change to either of the above.
I will try the voltage test with no router and two phones loading the line.
What I did find was the white incoming wire much lower resistance to ground than the other ( I am wired to the white and orange pair , with green and black as spares , the later appear to be connected to ground on the BT system , they may be the faulty ones found ago when I had a line outage , pre internet).
Sod this I am doing BTs work for them lazy B*stards. Greedy ones anyway. :mad: :rant2:
Think I will go back to being an electronic instrument and calibration engineer tommorrow and get paid for it !!!!!!
Hairyman
PS
Ipprofile still bouncing from 1meg to 5meg currently it is in the middle --- see below BT speedtest----
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6336 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 2500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2325 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester
At least you've eliminated the router there, Hairy. I don't know what BT practice is with spare pairs, but grounding them would make sense in terms of RFI.
Standing phone line voltage is around -50v DC, B wire to A wire. Ringing is done with about the same peak AC voltage added to that. Off hook will show much less, depending on exchange and line resistance, and might be as low as 8v. The DC resistance of a typical phone is 200-300 ohm and the current flowing is 20-50 mA. On hook very little current is drawn, just a few mA.
I would not like to predict what exact measurements might be, except to say that a very low or unstable off hook voltage could well suggest a dry joint. This might well burn through on ringing because up to 100v peak is presented.
NOTE: the total voltage on a phone line can be 100v peak during ringing, so be careful if you are fiddling.
Thanks, Dave. :karma:
Thx, Rik. Next time the No bell prize?
We could certainly do with some peace round here. ;)
A :grn: to you both. ;D
And another :grn: each. ;D
Thanks all!! :laugh:
No disconnects in 24hrs mind you no one has called us on the phone.
On the subject of the Id net phone system, my lady loves the new way the line just goes dead when a caller rings off after leaving an answerphone message. For years we have suffered with the boring BT ladies recorded message repeated too many times saying "the other Person has cleared" ( or similar) which got recorded on our answerphone.
I have been a bit busy today and tonight we are back into the rainy season so no chance to do any tests or measurements. I will see how the line holds but it looks like I will whip of the facepate again and pop a simple phone in there, listen for noise again, and try a fresh filter plugged in right there.
Again Thanks to you all.
Hairyman
Here follows a message for BT :bartmoon:
Quote from: hairyman on Aug 03, 2009, 22:14:30
Here follows a message for BT :bartmoon:
I think that's definitely a shared thought.
So succinct, as well! :thumb:
Or possibly
A message from BT to those who have to use its monopoly :rub: :bartmoon: :hehe:
Hairyman
BT seem to have completely lost the plot both on broadband and voice .
Just transfered to Idnet phone service all OK with the transfer and Idnet initial billing all set up perfectly ( Idnet seem the only efficient commercial organisation I have met recently -- Thanks to ID folk!! ).
BT completely fouled up their final billing and it has taken five long phone calls to get through to the area manager to sort it out -- maybe ? I will believe it is correct when I see the refunds!
They are completely disingenuous on the phone and frankly tell a load of lies. They tried to charge me a month penalty for leaving their contract early ( it actually ran out at the end of July and Idnet took over 1st August ). I had a month earlier advised them I would not renew the 12mth deal. This request they probably ignored. They also tried to charge me for a transfer into a weekend deal and then charge me for a load of calls that should have been on the anytime free calls I was on contract for.
BT customer facing staff all say they will do something but in reality either do nothing or, do what pays BT the most cash even if you didnt want it and didn't ask for the service. Eventually an honest UK based call centre lady admitted the staff at her level couldn't deal with refunds and could only arrange to transfer me to a supervisor. The manager duly called back three days later and he seemed able to see what had happened and set up a refund .
My advice with BT is never to phone or use the internet portal for anything important but only communicate in writing to them asking for action within a short time span. Their grasp on honesty seems well below any acceptable minimum level and efficiency likewise. All this is reflected in their share price no doubt directors bonuses will be good despite the companies performance.
We have similarly seen continuing bonuses in the banking sector despite the " financial terrorism" we saw them perform on us all last year and over previous years. They are still being rewarded and we have all seen our pensions dwindle/wages cut/ redundancy for many/ and income from savings destroyed by these "terrorists".
Rant over !!
Meanwhile the phone noises keep bouncing my internet speed ( Ip profile) from 1500k to 5500k day by day . Voice line is often noisy and using the phone often kills the internet and produces a disconnect. Then next minute all is quiet and no amount of picking up a voice line affects the broadband. So still intermittant.
I will call IDnet and ask them if they can get BT to get an engineer onto my voice line and or Fix my broadband at 2meg.
Regards
Hairyman
:bartmoon: :bartmoon:
:fingers:
I'm beginning to loathe BT, Hairy. >:(
Apart from moving to Hull, or getting a cable connection, then everyone will have some part of their line with BT
Hasn't BT bought out Kingston Communications?
Not quite, but KCom are struggling so it could just be the beginning of the BT borg assimilation ;)
QuoteKCOM has scaled back its ambitions again and will concentrate on selling managed services to corporates after outsourcing its management of its network assets to BT.
The company formerly known as Kingston Communications pitched the deal as extending its "network reach through access to BT's national network", with BT's wholesale networking taking over the management of its network assets.
It said the deal would "reduce the ongoing fixed costs and capital expenditure associated with the management of its network infrastructure."
It will hang on to its fibre access network, saying this "coupled with access to BT's network scale and service capability, will position the KCOM Group very strongly in the provision of communications services to its target markets."
This focus on target markets is part of its "transformation", into two businesses, namely "the East Yorkshire activities and Eclipse Internet" and "the managed communications business serving the needs of the enterprise and public sector markets."
Source (http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/06/22/kcom_bt_deal/)
Thanks, Dujas, I knew I'd read something about them being linked with BT, just couldn't remember quite what. :)
Hi Rik and dujas
Yes Kingston seem to have handed over their infrastructure to BT. I think they were owned by the local council at some time?
My last ISP was Eclipse Internet down in Exeter, who were very good back in 2001 with dial up and later when 512k was enabled on my exchange I went with them it all worked great, they were an independent company and were one of the driving forces of Broadband for U. They helped campaign to get people to preregister their interest in BB with BT and when certain trigger points of interest occurred BT planned BB enablement at exchanges. They were very good and quick back then. I and they upgraded to 2meg when enabled and I got 1.9meg actual on downloads.
Then Kingston took them over and all went to pot, the support staff all changed and speeds fell to 500k or less in the evenings. Eventually speeds fell to dial up levels at busy times. A move to 8meg max and some Eclipse/Kingston upgrades saw somewhat better speeds. But Kingston turned a good ISP into a pile of pooh fairly quickly and I know they were not liked as the monopoly supplier of all wired telecoms in Hull with high prices. They maintained the monopoly for a long time by I believe using non standard exchange systems, cabling and interconnects. So maybe a full monoploy with K may have been no better than BT. Certainly my experience with them was negative.
I moved to IDnet and speeds were better ( during times when my line is quiet) and the service in a different league.
BT need to become a customer facing company, as I would guess that if a significant number of people ( 30% +?) move to alternative suppliers for voice services the regulators will look again at the Openreach / BT relationship they put in place.
Hairyman
I hope Ofcom do re-examine the Openreach setup, Hairy. It seems to have done nothing for the customer, be it ISP or end-user. :(
Yes Rik
I see the Openreach setup as on dodgy ground ref monopoly level as they have a close relationship with BT ( one and the same really) and are much bigger than the 25 to 30 % of the market that normally attracts attention from the authorities.
Does the Monopolies and Mergers Commission still exist , its probably called something else or dissappeared in some old boys club deal . I would have thought some arrangement like the electric and gas supply system being the way to go with the backbone system being deal like British Rail track and station service is now run as a not for profit quango. Bt are currently, basically bust if you consider their pension fund debts someone would would have put in a fortune to bail then out only their special status monoploy keeps them credit worthy. ( Just like the banks ?!)
Hairyman
Openreach should either be a real, separate, organisation, or be scrapped. All it's introduction has done is put up costs for end users. :(
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6272 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 1250 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1152 kbps
Hi
Usual rubbish speed shown on the BT test above , well below the likely 2meg USO the Digital Britain big business support report mentioned?
My current downstream SNR is 18db at the 6272K sync above all this and only 400metres from the exchange?
Was the Openreach / BT arrangement put in place because of a European investigation or was it a UK requirement?? It was forced on BT by regulation.
Hairyman
Ofcom forced it on BT, Hairy.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6208 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4117 kbps
The usual bounce of IP sitting at 5meg today, probably back at 1meg tommorrow?
I have just read the forum problems it looks like 21CN is a disaster for BT, but I guess when they sort it out it will save them money.
Reference Openreach yes it does seem like a cobbled up quango devised object that it is.
A similar thing has caused the "death by a thousand" cuts for the Post Office and Royal Mail, with Euro regs forcing post over £1 ( and now 50p) delivery cost to be open to all. Hence UKmail and DHL etc creaming off the easy local inter and inta city mail. Royal mail then get a fee for doing the local hand delivery of the above ( very similar to the local loop , BT and the LLU on the net).
Sounds like Digital Britain will try to force us to have DAB radio with VHF FM analog going in due course ( so they can flog off the radio spectrum) , frankly its similar to BT old copper network in some ways. I travel the UK quite a lot and like to use Radio 4 most of the time, often even VHF Fm reception fails and we revert to 198Khz long wave , having tried DAB it is of no use to us car drivers in most places as it constantly popping , stuttering and then giving no coverage. I would have to scrap 7 or 8 beloved radios to go to a much poorer Digital Technology.
On the subject of my doubtful connection via 1980s BT copper ( aluminium ) as I am less than 500mtrs line of sight to the exchange I can only imagine what it would be like in 10 years time ( when analog radio broadcasting may go off air) if one lived in a small village say 10mls from the exchange in a valley when analog broadcasting shut off. No proper internet possible , no terrestrial reception ( TV or radio ) leaving you with satelite only . Not very portable if you want to listen in a car or say while gardening. Still Sky and Murdoch will win out, could this be the masterplan?
Hairyman
Part of living in the 'middle of nowhere' would be accepting that it's unlikely you'd have full access to all the private utility companies.
With respect I hardly think living just 10 miles from an exchange ( often there are sub-exchanges closer) is unusual , also why should new technology ( viz Digital radio and TV) actually be a backward step in service provided.
Most country dwellers wont have access to piped gas or mains sewers already , many are now loosing their TV during the digital change over and will have to go sky sat to get back what they are used to.
Hairyman
I always look forward with interest to Hairy's posts.
Apart from being informative, I know that no matter how badly I think I'm doing on my line he's doing so much worse on his. ;D
Speaking as a "country dweller" (I live in a small village in Yorkshire) I have to state i have mains gas/sewerage, my broadband (just normal ADSL, dunno if/when we will get ADSL2+) syncs at 8128. As far as I know all the surrounding villages/hamlets all have mains gas/sewerage too........things have moved on since the 1950's ya know :tease:
Anyways have to go, need to pray to the great god Electro and sacrifice my first born child
If you're able to receive a decent analogue TV signal, why would the change to digital would result in no picture?
Thanks to Dujas , Fox and bobleslie for your posts.
We are Ok here for TV and all mains services living just south of Gloster. The digital TV is just OK with us even at the low power they transmit to us prior to the switch next year. Currently the transmitter near Hereford sends out 100kilowatt erp ( estimated radiated power) on analog and only 1kilowatt on digital. Come the changeover the analog goes off and digital will increase power to 10kW ish? Just three miles from here in my town of 7000 people is Stroud that is much larger they are in a series of valleys and only get the 4 / 5 analog channels right now ( unless they are lucky and live up the hillsides , Cotswolds. To get freeview channels you need Sky Freeview this means expense and regular replacement of the outside dishes. Not everyone is well off enough to pay loads of extra cash each year to replace hardware . Many people on northfacing slopes cannot even get Sky as their horizon is too high an angle . The local "fill in transmitter in Stroud is all analog I understand these will only be converted after the main "feed" transmitters switch off analog. Many Stroud houses cannot get Mendip/Wenvoe or Ridge Hill main sites on analog let alone on digital and rely on the local fill in.
Many places locally have only mains electric and incoming water around here , only the towns have gas nearly all the villages have none it being deemed not economic to supply the pipework. Many have septic tanks or similar for "downstream water" !! One of my mother neighbours only supplied service was mains water to his house ( only 800 metres from the village centre) and he just got mains electric supplied about eight years ago , they previously wanted £12K plus to supply , he got his supply for a nominal cost when a new cable was laid right past his house to take power from a wind turbine to the grid, this gave him ( a pensioner ) an affordable connection.
Again at my old family home we only got mains sewerage on the 1960s ( even now if the power goes off for more than 4hours , which it does, the sewer pumps in the village go off and the overflowing tank makes a terrible mess down the valley , Severn Trent have to bring out a generator within three hours to prevent this. Currently my mum only gets marginal terrestrial Freeview with a big aerial etc, again its a long way to the Mendip Transmitter ( this will go up in power after next years changeover). No mains gas within 4 miles, most of the Cotswolds apart from some of the towns have no gas.
I suggest you try to get a utility to supply a few yards beyond an existing one , it will cost you a fortune , think of all the trenching for pipes and cables. Back in the 1950s and 60s the utilities were nationalised and most places got a service ( apart from gas which has always been difficult) even if it was not commercially viable, the downside you waited years to get it brought to you. Many lost out when the utilities were sold off by Maggie T.
My good friends live in a town in mid Wales they run a small farm and just have mains electricity/telephone , the switchover to digital TV is happening now and it looks like they will get no digital to replace the analog when it goes off ( they will have to get three dishes etc to supply their families houses ) . They are only a few hundred yards from the main trunk road the A44 but they manage on spring water and septic tanks . They get about 200kbps on broadband which they are OK with but it will hardly give them live TV of even internet radio reliably so they rely on analog terrestrial for communication. Digital Radio and TV just doesn't "go as far" as analog. With digital as soon as you get weak signals or noise you get major data errors then freezing etc making it unusable. With Analog, weak signals or interference gives you "snow" or "crackling" but you can still use the service. MY friends very happy they don't get the drive by shootings, vandalism and drug dealers on corners utilities that city dwellers benefit from ! ( likewise I am not blessed by these city based "addon " utilities).
The Digital Britain Report seems to me to be largely commercially driven , getting us to pay more for possibly less service and replacing all our gear. Personally I am in favour of hitting copyright cheating downloaders where it hurts, it is stealing after all. Also don't forget Digital Transmissions of any sort are all encoded in some form so it is an easy extra step to go pay for view or listen by charging cash for a key.
This is the real state of UK services for many also don't forget that the majority of country dwellers are not well off well healed types most live on modest incomes.
I am very fortunate to have all the services I need ( Cable would be nice but thats not going to happen ) . Only my internet IP bounce from one meg to 5.5meg and back causing any real aggravation for me along with the intermittently noisy voice phoneline that sets it all off. Sadly for many "Digital Britain" remains and will remain a unobtainable myth ( a bit like mains supplied gas!!)
My actual throughput on broadband remains at 4meg tonight with a 6.5meg sync , line noise has been low for three days , I wonder how long it will last? SNR here still remains at 16db at 6500k sync at 37db line loss , all on the downstream side.
Hairyman
Very nice description, except for
Quotedrive by shootings, vandalism and drug dealers on corners utilities that city dwellers benefit from ! ( likewise I am not blessed by these city based "addon " utilities).
...nor am I in North London. Our crime statistics are about 30% higher than the national average, and about 50% higher than Stroud (findaproperty.com). I saw one purse-snatching and 2 shop break-ins in 10 years. The biggest nuisance are the crowds of double-wide prams.
I still can't understand how they get away without fixing...
Quotethe intermittently noisy voice phoneline
I remember your case as being particularly bad and that it was pronounced "within spec" by your friendly
local Openreach engineer, but like the Firesign Theatre used to say in the 60's, "...they never come up into the hills..."
Richard
Hi rireed3
Yes I know the figures and facts on the ground and "fact" as reported by the press don't always tie up.
A colleague lives in central Birmingham and he cannot justify house contents insurance because of the cost we compared quotes and his was over 4 times as much as mine. Similarly the old postcode lottery means he pays twice as much for car insurance as me , he is a little bit bit younger than me to be fair, but my car is 4 groups higher and worth three times as much. So I guess the insurance guys see the risks in terms of payouts in each area.
Funnily enough my colleague has broadband ( with O2 on LLU 8meg ) he has over 2.5miles of wire to his exchange despite living in a city centre but he gets near full rate sync and mostly 6meg on downloads, compared to my less than 1km of cable to an exchange 400metres away and I get 6meg syncs and between 800k and very occasionally 5.5meg downloads.
The trouble is the line is only intermittently noisy ( but persistant) I got 13 disconnects and a voice line on I think Monday/Tuesday this week but its been OK since then. The week before we had probably hundreds of dropouts in total due to line noise and often the sync had been forced down to 2meg until a manual reboot of the router brought it back up ( then a 24 to 72hours wait for BTs wacky IProfile to ramp up again.
Its not as if I live in a remote spot the town only uprated itself to a town from a village/parish a few years ago but it still has 6000 residential lines and is in Market 1 ( BT as sole provider ) as reported by Sam Knows. My mothers village is nearby and they can only get around 1 to 2 meg syncs due to long lines ( 4/5miles to just the local sub exchange.
Thanks again.
Hairyman
Hi All
Long time no post!
Mostly due to being busy elsewhere and not wanting to get involved with rubbish BT/Idnet hassles.
My comnnection still varies between 800ktput and 4.5meg tput depending how it feels.
Voice line still noisy to the point of not being able to hear the incoming call ( turn off router no change same with alternate phone).
I can clear the line voice noise by switching the simple phone to pulse dialling and sending out hundreds of say 7s or 8s.
During the noisy phases if the router is on the both Line atten will rise typically the downstream goes from 37db to 43db and the connection may drop. Using the phone when it gives noise on a quiet line test the routers SNR will drop from say 17db down to 10db down to 0db . This occurs on picking up the line or putting it back transition . Changed filters etc I even have an extra filter in the phone side feed ( using its phone socket) which kind of eliminates any chance of low impedance voice line fouling up HF broadband.
Tried to call IDNET all day today Friday but they are on answerphone service even in office hours , dont they man the phones these days ?? Even the sales line goes straight to answerphone after telling you their hours of buisness. Has the good gone bad or maybe just a long fire drill at IDnet House ( or a party !).
Hairyman
Phones are working again now...
Hi Rik
How are you trust U R well.
I left an answerphone message on IDs system but I may call then anyway.
I suspect they will only suggest a new line installation ( its all underground though , no ducting either until well down the road)
The other option is try AAISP as they offer a a pretty solid promise of no fix no fee.
The problem is mainly now voice line noise as I use the net so little in terms of downloads ( a few hundred meg a month) now that I can cope with the slow speeds .
The disconnects are annoying as when they happen during say secure type logon activites the system fouls up and last night I was locked out of my internet financial stuff until I went through a telephone / postal reactivation. Thats bl**dy annoying!!!
Thanks
Hairyman
Hairyman
Hi Hairy, I'm fine thanks. Ultimately, a new physical line is the way forward. It may be worth a try with A&A, but David hasn't found that they can achieve anything that IDNet can't, but you've little to lose.
Does AAISP's promise cover lines that are noisy on the voice side?
No idea, Glenn.
AAISP imply that all normal line faults should be cleared by their ADSL process . They talk about disconnects and Ipprofile optimisations. Frankly IDnet have done wonders for my throughput when my Ipprofile is high but the drop in profiles returns me speeds I had 5 years ago until it recovers. The line noise is now unacceptable and as I am on a IDnet phone package they will need to initiate an improvement there with BT.
The noise is still intermittant but very persistant and results in almost swamped conversations . It is getting a lot worse this year. Its especially bad now as we haven't had rain for a nearly a month and its always worse in dry spells. Water must fill the ducts and dampen the bad joints!!
The other option is go LLU which will dump the IPprofiling which is the main ADSL problem. Using a mobile phone for phone seems the best option and maybe for bb as well ! Don't forget I am only 400metres from the exchange (line of sight).
Glad to know U are well Rik and still fighting for us.
Don't know what ordering a new physical line will actually be , a lift and shift has already been done I think, a new cable across and down the road to the manhole might be possible , the second "spare" pair to my property I believe was the cause of a total line loss about 18years ago So that may not be usable?
Regards
Hairyman
The problem always is whether BT are prepared to spend the money needed. If not, then going for a new line is sometimes cheaper than paying for engineer visits that achieve nothing.
Rik
Now I am with IDnet for phone service as well as bb I assume IDnet do all the fault reporting and remote testing etc that I used to get direct with BT?
Current projects to take my mind off these net/phone problems are building a pair of gates for my drive and organising a trip to do some mountain walking scrambling in Snowdonia for a few newcomers to the hills. Any semi serious rock jocks out there?? if so PM me if interested?
Hairyman
They do, Hairy. I developed crackling on my line and they had an engineer here in two hours flat. He re-crimped the joint at the distribution point and all has been well since.
I'm more an armchair jock. ;)
Quote from: Rik on Oct 02, 2009, 16:59:41
Hi Hairy, I'm fine thanks. Ultimately, a new physical line is the way forward. It may be worth a try with A&A, but David hasn't found that they can achieve anything that IDNet can't, but you've little to lose.
Actually, Rik, David wrote on 22 September:
QuoteI realise now that BT were the culprits but that was cold comfort at the time A&A claim that they would fix the line or I would owe nothing was the clincher and to me I had nothing to lose,they did get it fixed and here I am
They fixed my troubles as well, so............. ;D
I am fairly in favour in Armchair jockeying these days but still find the call of the wild draws me out quite often. A great way to recharge your soul while wearing out your soles.
Quote from: Rik on Oct 02, 2009, 18:52:42
They do, Hairy. I developed crackling on my line and they had an engineer here in two hours flat. He re-crimped the joint at the distribution point and all has been well since.
I'm more an armchair jock. ;)
Could I get a job at BT, some days I do hundreds of cables crimps a day at work??
Hi Bobleslie Might be worth a try with AAISP as the daytime 1gig limit would be fine as I rarely use this much at all time throughout a month at all times, this might increase as I hope to come down to a four day week sometime soon.
Hairyman
Quote from: bobleslie on Oct 02, 2009, 18:59:07
Actually, Rik, David wrote on 22 September:
They fixed my troubles as well, so............. ;D
I'm obviously confused. :blush:
Quote from: hairyman on Oct 02, 2009, 19:00:16
I am fairly in favour in Armchair jockeying these days but still find the call of the wild draws me out quite often. A great way to recharge your soul while wearing out your soles.
I have problems with anything more than a gentle incline these days, unfortunately. :(
QuoteCould I get a job at BT I do hundreds of cables crimps a day some days at work??
It has to be a start... :)
Hi Rik
We get plenty of uphill walking right here from home as the are numerous 600 to 800 foot hills within a few yards.
Our older neighbours seem to get round this by cheating and using electric buggies to get to the shops.
I got an email from Brian at Idnet to say BT had been asked to look at my voice line. Lets hope they dont say no fault found , I am not expecting any more though.
My ADSL is working OK most of the time now as I turn off the router when the PC goes off , this reduces its "exposure" to the CR*p copper we have.
Hairyman
Probably a good idea, Hairy, particularly overnight.
Hi All
Left a message at Idnet house on Friday about the crackling being so loud I had had to drop a call and use the mobile.
At 12.15hrs on Sunday ( 4 Oct ) I got a call from BT/Openreach asking if an engineer could start tests and come around ASAP. I said we would be OK for about 1400 for a visit.
Glad to see life at BT , the very helpful and friendly engineer called and applied his Hawk to my outside box. He had found a very green ( verdi gris) joint in a road box and and a set of non approved blue crimps at the green box. Plus snails and bare copper in my local box outside. All was made good. The Hawk had showed no HR joints though. He said the whole area main cables were in ally/ally copper cable as it went in in the early 80s . ( Aluminium cannot carry lower RF frequencies due to the currents travelling on the surface in the oxidized layer) . We had a chat about collapsing pensions and layoffs etc in his and my industry and his retirement was now five years later than when he had started with BT/PO . He hoped things would be better now on the line and went back to check on the cards at the exchange before clocking off. He called from the exchange to say all was well there. ( He said he could only get 1meg at his home on the next exchange south of here ) .
Thanks to ID and a taste of the good old GPO service.
I will see how the voice and net go from here, the SNRs and line attenuation's seem normal , the downstream SNR varies from 12dB to 17dB and Attn stable at 37dB . As the fault was quite irregular but persistant so it may take a while to show if the green copper oxide joints were the problem.
PS I had a few PPP authentication problem tonight where I got a sync with the exchange but no net, The router showed no PPP until I power cycled the router a few times.
Hairyman
Let's hope they were, Hairy, and that will be the end of the problem. Certainly let us know how you get on!
Hi Lance
Thanks for being there, I will stay in touch.
Question if the line stays quiet voice wise and the ADSL doesn't disconnect to often, will my 15db SNR work its way down again. I believe BT/IDnet had locked it at 15dB to try to stop the profile dropping as even during recent "good spells" with no drop outs the downstream SNR stays at 15Db or higher.
Or does someone have to reset some software somewhere ??
Hairy
It normally takes 14 days of solid connectin for the DLM to reduce the noise margin, but if yours has been locked there than that is unlikely to happen.
It may be worth asking support to have a word with BT asking them to reduce the noise margin back down now that 'the' fault has been cleared. If the higher noise margin is required, then the DLM will quick in again and raise it as it sees fit.
The blue crimps used to be in use in the early 80s, Hairy, but have been found to allow/cause corrosion, so were replaced. I know because I recently had a crackly line and that was the cause. It took IDNet two hours to get an engineer to me. ;)
Special dispensation, then. :whistle:
Almost papal, Bob. ;D
Purple fetish with a smooth outcome. ;D
I hope this puts an end to your problem, Hairy!
Hear hear! :thumb:
Hi All
Thanks for your best wishes, the patient remains in the recovery suite with prospects looking good. The voice line noise seems hasn't shown up again.
The SNR still waggles about a bit but so far I haven't had a disconnect since the visit. Had a few PPP problems yesterday showing no connection but I forced a PPP connect via the router interface probably a BT reboot?
I will leave the connection as it is for a while but if some nice guy at IDnet can press some software button I wouldn't want to stop them!!
Rik --- the blue crimps should have been replaced in the 90s said the engineer but I guess a lot of work was contracted out then so little was done. I remember seventeen years ago that it took over a week even to get a BT man out to fix a dead line and that was fast!! Futher up the road some fully green corroded crimps were found as well, actually loads were seen but mine were sorted the others reported.
The connection seems better with so far no voice line noise and no interaction between voice and ADSL.
Speeds between 1800 and 2200 hrs tonight were lowish at around 1500kbps but before and after it went up to 5000kbps which is quite nice.
BT speedtest shows the profile at 5000kbps at 6500 sync. Tput was lowish at 1600k odd mid evening. Very high pings were noticed at Idnet and at lonap in London .
I will see if the situation remains the same, Brian at Idnet called early evening to see how things were I thanked him and said he asked if I report in if any further problems, I said I would email after a few days / a week and report :) or >:( .
Thanks to all and Idnet and here and to very helpfull BT man who live near my Mum for finding these faults. Shame that the BT engineer said he only got 1meg sync on his line at home. He lives in a very nice spot but if shows that the ancient infrastructure we have in the UK is groaning.
Lets see how the internet survives the streaming video this Saturday the 10th as England play some strange game that we last did well at in 1966 , I remember it well , it was good to beat them Germans three times in less than fifty years >:D.
Thanks
Hairyman
;D
I remember watching the team coach go past on the way back from Wembley.
Yes I lived in only a few miles from Wembley in 1966 and remember the excitement that weekend.
Also I recall my Father who spent all his childhood in Wembley saying he passed his driving test in Wembley on FA Cup Final day, 1938 I think. Shortly after he signed up for the RAF that way as a volunteer he got the service and trade of his choice.
Shame we haven't hosted the World Cup since them as other countries have had more than their fair share since.
My ADSL remains OK and voice line is nice and quiet , great!!
My only doubt is that we have had a load of rain in the last 72hours after five dry weeks and rain always seemed to quieten the line.
Hairy
Give it time. ;)
Hi Rik
Yes the voice line is now very quiet, and no ADSL disconnects for 8days, plotting the downstream SNR with Router Stats shows It sitting mostly at 15.5dB with occasional drops to 12.0dB.
Do other Id-netters get a regular 3db minute by minute variation of Downstream SNR ?? I was wondering what was "normal".
The engineer said there was Aluminium cabling as the estate was mostly built in the late 70 early 80s when "that was all they used". So much for BT denying its use.
I know copper was in short supply and expensive then , was it due to the Rhodesian N and S problems back then (now Zambia/Zimbabwe) ??
Before the Openreach man did his stuff here I got a regular 4 to 5db variation down from 15dB max but with the occasional full 15dB drop when sync was lost.
Its nice to pick up the phone or get a incoming call and not get (a) noise and (b) it mess up the ADSL .
I will see what happens after 14days and see if the SNR is reduced it looks like 9dB should be possible.
Either way it seems more stable with just the usual drop in throughputs now due to congestion rather than a low Ipprofile.
I would give a Karma to all it that was possible.
Hairyman
Glad things are improving, Hairy. :thumb:
Hi hairy.
A three db variation within minutes isn't completely normal but it's not going to have an adverse effect either.
I would give the noise margin a good 15 clear days to drop but alternatively ask support to speak to BT. Sometimes BT are more willing to drop the noise margin if they can see a fault has been cleared on the line.
FAQ
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Download Speed
4678 Kbps
0 Kbps 7150 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed
Download speedachieved during the test was - 4678 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :6400 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 5500 Kbps
BT speedtest above done at 2320hrs tonight.
Not bad and the voice line noise is zero.
Yes Lance the SNR still waggles about 3dB probably normalish for around here?
I will give it until next week to see if the SNR alters from 15-16db where it is now. Monday will be 15days from the engineer turning out.
Thanks for the help Simon, this might be an end to a three year plus saga!
I will call support next week if the SNR stays locked at 16dB at 6400K sync. But I am pretty happy at current tputs , during the evening I see down to 1.5/2meg but after 2200hrs it improves to up to 5meg.
Hairyman
Glad to hear it us still all good!
The noise margin won't come down without a reboot btw.
As for the throughput, it sounds likely to be exchange congestion unfortunately :(
Yep, you'll need to force a re-sync. Fingers crossed for you!
Quote from: hairyman on Oct 14, 2009, 23:32:15........ this might be an end to a three year plus saga!
How nice to see this problem resolved at last. It seems to be a simple voice fault, rather beyond the control of IDNET. Nice to see credit given to the BT guys in the field. I would like to think if they had attended at the beginning, the result would have been the same. Sometimes you have to trust the guys on the ground.
I think you're probably right there, Dave.
Hi
Have tried a router reboot today , well actually it was forced on us!! The mains electric supply went off in the whole district for 2hours!
The SNR remains the same at 16db approx with dips of 2 to 3 dB.
I guess we will see what happens after 15days ( next Monday)
Doesn't really matter as the 4 to 5 meg tputs are good enough and the general responsiveness is now much better than B4.
The trouble with BT was they only would only do a remote test and then said they could see no faults and refused to do more. The voice line noise only became bad this year and got much worse this summer.
Up until then there was only enough line problem to mess up the Iprofile with little voice line noise. I had no problem on 2meg or 512K only the coming of 8meg MAX was the problem apparent.
Thank goodness for the better Openreach man they drafted in from another patch, as he had loads of experience in much more difficult patch way out in the small villages south of here.
Hairyman
Hairy, I you had a reboot, then your 15 days has been interupted and will be started again from day 1.
I think it would be a good idea to ask support, highlighting the fact a fault has been resolved.
Yep, sometimes this is a good enough reason to get BT to reset it.
Quote from: hairyman on Aug 12, 2008, 23:21:54I get high line noise on the voice line this seems related to the broadband starting to struggle .......
I like to think BT would have found a voice fault then and waived any call out charges.
Quote from: Lance on Oct 16, 2009, 08:07:16
Hairy, I you had a reboot, then your 15 days has been interupted and will be started again from day 1.
I think it would be a good idea to ask support, highlighting the fact a fault has been resolved.
I will see what happens next week. I remember someone saying on this forum saying the BT system can tell the difference between a straight modem reboot during a power cycle and sync loss causing a disconnect ( the time taken to resync difference maybe)? I guess we should really be turning our modems off overnight anyway as they do seem to take more than say several TVs on standby ( 5 to 10 watts is typical for routers) . I have been leaving mine on overnight since the line joint corrosion was found.
Ref the line noise this only became a real consistent problem during spring summer this year with a lot of calls being disrupted. BT were reluctant to do anything. Even Idnet suggested the only way to resolve the problem could be to order a new line and even that had no guarantee.
I seem to remember when I first gotMAX that it synced at 8128k at 7 to 8 dB SNR in Fast mode but the drop outs caused it to go interleaved then Eclipse then Idnet got BT to lock my SNR at the max 15dB to try to stabilize the line.
Again thanks to all.
No drop outs due to line noise for two weeks is great. The IProfile seems stable at 5500K as well.
Hairyman
Ah, if your line was fixed at 15db there is no way it will come doWn on it's own. :)
Hi Lance
We thats what I remember being told at the time both by Eclipse Internet then I am fairly sure by Idnet.
I will email support, its still at 16db SNR at just 15days after the line fault is cleared.
Regards
Hairy
Hi All
The BT speedtester has been unavailable for a week now, it just fails on timeout or cant authenticate. Isn't it time BT gave up what they cannot do , ANYTHING USEFUL . they are in my opinion a group ( just like ROYAL MAIL? ) of mostly very good workers lead by donkeys. ( doesn't Royal Mail have a failed head of the Football Association in charge?).
The message I get is as below when I enter my correct phone number and username as issued by Idnet and as per the router login ( which obviously works) , isn't it typical of BT to blame me as a customer for inputting the wrong details rather than simply having the "balls" to pop up a message that their system is busy or in need of fixing!
Message below:---
Performance Tester is unable to run the speed test for your telephone number:*******. Please check that it is the correct telephone number for your service. Did you follow all the instructions given on the website, before initiating the speed test. If not, then please follow all the instructions carefully and try to run the test again. If you believe it is the correct number for your service and you have followed all the instructions then please ask your Service Provider whether yout can use Performance Tester to tesr your Broadband speed. If yes, then ask him for the Service ID of your broadband connection and try again with this Service ID along with your Telephone Number. If this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider
Never mind BT poor customer interface SNAFU ( Situation Normal All F**ked Up ). Notice BT spelling mistakes highlighted ( I assume the BT website is Outsourced!!!).
Meanwhile my line remains noise free and the BT software grinds slowly to upgrade my line speed tput, its over 30days now and I am back to 7616Kbps at 12db SNR both downstream, download tests show up to 5.2meg down to 3meg at peak congested times. Thinkbroadband speedtests below. I dont know my Iprofile as BT wont oblige but I would guess it is 6500Kbps?
Much better than when I was syncing at 6500k and profiling at well below 2meg with multiple dropouts.
Downstream SNR still "jiggles" up down by up to 5db at times, I have noticed this figure as reported by Router Stats every ten seconds varies much less when the the voice phone is in use ( filters etc changed again with no change) I suspect the line while much much better "likes" the load of the old fashioned phone we use. Maybe this reduces broadband crosstalk to an from other phone lines on the same multicore?
Anyway getting max interleaved speed of 7616K at 12dB SNR is better than the previous SNR of I think 7 or 8dB at the same speed ( but with loads of dropouts then the inevitable jacking up of the SNR by the BT customer annoyance system.)
Line atten downstream is 37db about the same as ever.
The internet now seems much more responsive as well , in fact its back to the type of behavior that I got when I was one of the first few on the exchange with the then new 2meg internet which I upgraded from the 512K service I had. I remember the 512 service was £20 a month plus vat and going costs were about £150 !!
Hope you are all well and hope you were not tormented to much by Witchcraft/satanists over Halloween and lets hope it rains a bit over the ever so quaint "Lets celebrate burning a Catholic night" on the 5 Nov and over the weekend.
Best regards
Hairyman
Thinkbroadband
Speedtest Results
Date Downstream Upstream IP Address Connection
04/11/09 20:10 4794.70 Kbps 372.81 Kbps IDnet
04/11/09 19:59 4874.73 Kbps 373.57 Kbps IDnet
04/11/09 19:55 4761.07 Kbps 373.59 Kbps IDnet
04/11/09 19:50 4792.54 Kbps 373.85 Kbps IDnet
Glad to hear your line is still fine, Hairy. Lets hope it stays that way for years to come!
Or even pray. ;) :pray:
Hi Rik and Lance
Managed to get a speedtest out of BT it showed a profile of 6500kbps at 7616k sync ( interleaved) with a tput of 4550K.
Its been nearly 2months since they fixed the line so I guess its topped out, I assume interleaving is not turned off automatically by the BT profiling system??
I have had no disconnects in that time and the actual throughputs vary from 3meg at busy times to just over 5meg at best.
All this is great and much better than the often sub 1meg profiles and throughputs had earlier this year. The voice line is now quiet and stable.
The downstream SNR remains at 11 to 12 db , dropping a bit at night when I guess the MW/MF radio signals increase enough to be "seen" in the bb noise. Occasionally the SNR dips a bit but never more than 4db. Downstream attenuation is 37db.
Hope you are all well , again thanks for the advice.
Hairyman
Thanks fo the update, Hairy.
You assume correctly about interleaving. That can only be turned off by BT.
Any fluctuating speeds you het are most likely to be exchange congestion, as the new
hostlink has resolved the issues at Idnet's end.
Thanks
Lance
Thanks for the update, Hairy. Clearly your line is prone to noise pick up even now, or your target NM would have been reduced.
Hi Rik
I haven't had a single disconnect since the end of September. I think the speed has reached 7616K the max interleaved 8megMAX supports ? The SNR at 11/12db remains as this is what 7616K sync and line attn of 36/37Db equate to ? ?
Lance - I may ask Idnet if they can turn off interleaving , I am happy with the speed right now and think exchange congestion is now a slightly limiting factor and the "weakest link". It would be interesting to see if Fast mode held though.
Hairyman
Yes, if interleaving is on, that's headroom, not a high target margin, Hairy. :blush: You should get good speeds when you can move to WBC.