Interesting article today at ISPreview (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/articles/p2p08/) - including some nice comments from Simon Davies.
Useful link, thanks Colin. :)
I think Simon makes a very strong argument - it's not for ISPs to protect the financial interests of a single group such as the BPI.
Big brother strikes again.
The simplest way to kill it off is to legalise it, and make the money from adverts placed like commercial breaks within the film, the cinemas or any licenced performances could have the ads removed seamlessly.
Or, charge the same price for CD's etc as America, (which are half our price) instead, it's the usual case of rip-off Britian.
That seems to be a question that the Govt have never asked the BPI, Malc - I wonder if money is talking?
I wonder indeed
Of course it is. All politicians seem to be corrupted one way or another. :mad:
Don't they, Alf. They seem to have managed to alienate us in a way that I can't remember happening 20+ years ago.
In the trust stakes it used to be 1/ Second hand car dealers
2/ Estate agents
3/ MP's
I suspect that legislation to regulate 1 & 2 might elevate MPs. :)
just to add insult to injury you might like these links
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/9321/More+Top+TVLinks+Alternatives
Add to that
http://www.myp2p.eu/
for live premiership football!
Not more £20 a month to SKY ;D
I have to laugh when I see stories like this. This has been an ever increasing problem and the way it's always reported is that it's a recent thing. I remember back in the days of the Spectrum and ZX81 that people were copying tapes because the prices were too high, and the companies haven't learned to this day.
Companies have ALWAYS priced games, music and films way too high, just through greed, although PC games seem to have slowed in the pricing recently, probably because they realise this now.
While I agree it's illegal to download games, most companies only have themselves to blame. Putting out games for £49 on a console and having the cheek to tell us that this is a fair price. Do me a favour, we're not morons out here you know.
If the film makers released films over here at the same time as in the US, they'd knock a HUGE percentage of illegal downloads off the figure. The same goes for music (although I think something huge has to be done here, possibly a format change) but I think that horse has long since bolted.
If you keep the prices down, treat customers with the respect they deserve then you'll get more people buying things.
For these people to claim it's a new thing, blaming broadband and ISPs for supplying fast connections is moronic. LAN events were rife with illegal software, despite the organisers claiming otherwise. I've been to a fair few in my time, and back in the days of 56k there were people passing around hundreds of games, films, music and software.
If you make a good product, do some damn research. Don't be greedy morons or you'll shoot yourself in the foot. End of story.
I can remember back in the early 70's, when reel to reel tape recorders first appeared in the shops and the record industries were up in arms them about people recording of the radio.
Nothing changes.
Remember this, on LP inner sleeves?
(http://si6776.www.idnet.com/hometaping.gif)
They couldn't stop it then, and I doubt they ever will, although admittedly, it's on a much greater scale now.
That brings back memories :)
It is now £6 to see a film at my local flea pit, so if I went with my wife and daughter who now has to pay full price, even though she is not an adult :mad: the price with tickets, drinks etc. would be in excess of £30 for 90 - 100 minutes of entertainment, not good value to me, hence we very rarely go to the cinema, instead we wait for the DVD which is a third of the price. It's no wonder people download illegally.
Filesharing does have benefits though, a lot of people use it to "try before they buy" which is never reported in surveys.
I put my hand up to illegal downloading. I justify it to myself as I don't go to the movies as I am not allowed to smoke in there, so they are not losing revenue from me. I don't buy dvd's as they are too expensive and most are cr*p anyway. As long as I don't sell anything on or make profit by it I justify my own level of dishonesty and can live with myself.
What about years ago when we used to copy our friends LP's to Cassette, nobody got their knickers in a twist about that. If you weren't supposed to copy why make recordable cassettes and recordable cds and dvds.
What I really abhor is the pirate copies that are sold at bootsales and other places. Those people should not be allowed to profit from downloading illegally. I only do it for my own use but I am still breaking the law.
Who on here has the courage to admit they do the same.? :hide:
Quote from: lona on Mar 11, 2008, 23:53:45Who on here has the courage to admit they do the same.? :hide:
As one of those sad individuals who's purchased
really costly software since the 1980s, I have now taken the "try before you buy" approach to some software and it has saved me a fortune.
The crippled trial software offered by the giants is often useless and I've had my fingers burned too many times to buy before I try, and on that basis, me and a few others have downloaded some iffy stuff but this has led to us legally purchasing soft/hardware packages that cost us megabucks (which all got melted in the recent Camden Lock fire - eep!).
As for fillums, I'm a bit of a movie junkie and I do get ticked off about what's (not) released in the UK so I do snatch the odd anime every now and again because I know it will never get a UK release.
Other than that, I'm as impure as the driven snow...
File sharing will never stop, and if through legislation or other means it's reduced, I doubt very, very much that the music industry will see a rise in sales to compensate.
I've three children, now at university and college, and I've watched with interest as they and their friends have grown up with P2P. I come into contact with a lot of 16-22 year olds, and it's my experience that very few of them have developed a habit of buying music, either in CD form or by legal downloading. They've all become used to music for free, and would rather go without than buy it. They rarely need to go without though.
The more technically able teach their friends all the dodges, many use FTP to share music with one another, a lot don't even pay for internet access as they live in a city environment and own lap-tops, so it's a simple matter to connect to the nearby flat with an unsecured wireless router, or go and sit in their cars outside a block of flats or densely populated street and find an unsecured network that way.
I remember reading several years ago a music industry insider saying that the battle against illegal downloading would not be won by legislation, but over the family dining table, referring to parents stressing upon their children the questionable morality of what is, basically, theft.
I had those conversations with my children and lost or was laughed at, and so have most of my friends with their children. The BPI will have to find a new way to encourage this generation to spend their money on music. Brute force and legislation won't work.
I'll hold my hand up, but I do not sell it, it's mostly PC Games and the ones I am loyal to I do buy.
Example I love football and I have every release of Football Manager, I support the software house and get my money's worth, but a lot of games are rubbish and are never played.
As for music, I have spent hundreds of pounds in the past on music in the 70's and 80's, but who would in the right mind buys the 99% of todays music that is utter (c)rap? It's unbelievable that they us to spend any money on it at all, I won't have it on my HD for free.
You can't sell sh*t.
I do it.
Music mostly, I collect the "oldies", record companies delete good music far too soon , and make it impossible to get any other way, unless they release a compilation which is full of stuff you don't want. I don't sell it, in fact I give it away to other collectors who ask, but I'm still breaking the "law"
I don't download films, partly because I never get a chance to watch them, but mostly because I like purchasing and collecting DVDs, and prefer the 'real thing' to a copy. That said, I do occasionally download music, but this is usually live bootleg material, rather than anything that's officially released. I do also 'try before I buy' with music, but usually end up buying it anyway. I have never sold anything I have downloaded, but do occasionally copy CDs for friends.
I would say to anyone who does it or tries to do it, be very carefull, many of these PtoPeer sites are used to distribute viruses, some I suspect are produced by the record companies to put people off, but they still do a lot of damage.
I only use private trackers, slightly safer
I don't think MP3s can contain viruses, but some of the sites themselves can be dodgy, and some P2P clients can contain spyware. Certainly, one is walking a minefield by risking using illegal software.
Like most people, I've made a copy of CDs for friends, or received copies from them. I accept it's not right, but then neither is charging us more than anyone else if we buy. Morality is a two-way street.
everyone is playing the game
http://torrentfreak.com/riaa-keeps-settlement-money-080228/
Typical RIAA, imo. Bloodsuckers at work. >:(
yes i admit i have ,but only for my own use, mainly old style music, much of which is unobtainable now, and a few computer programs, which i would never be able to afford otherwise.
i think the over pricing ,combined with "rip off britain" encourages p2p, but of course the "greeds" can,t see this.
as someone on this post said earlier, the market traders, with hundreds of illegal copies, greatly add to to problem
at a large market near hear , officials raid and confiscate every six months or so, but i,m sure the traders are tipped off before hand
you can tell by the rubbish they are offering for sale that day,(mostly old disks they want to get rid of anyway) , then the sentence (fine ) is a pitance, and next week the traders are back to their normal copy trading.
its just enough for the local officials to say in the local rag, "are'nt we good ,look we did a raid, no one can say we do'nt do our job !!"
Malc, what's "a private tracker "
Quote from: Simon on Mar 12, 2008, 11:03:03
I don't think MP3s can contain viruses, but some of the sites themselves can be dodgy, and some P2P clients can contain spyware. Certainly, one is walking a minefield by risking using illegal software.
MP3 may not contain a virus, but a common ploy is to rename a virus as an MP3, and the unwary try to run the file before they realise its an exe.
The industry goes on and on about how much it is losing but how many poor film producers, record producers etc are there. Look at the majority of pop and film stars, how many of them have a living far in excess of those that listen to and watch them. The actual amount these companies and stars lose is very small, if anything, and stopping all the illegal downloads etc will not boost their income by very much at all.
I feel more sorry for those song writers who are paid minimal sums for their work and never see much of this so called fortune, the same goes for the vast majority of writers.
It is always the big companies who get all the big profits by leeching off the backs of those who work for them and charging exorbitant amounts for their products. :mad: :mad:
even more amusing
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080311-riaa-tells-ars-were-not-hypocrites.html
About what I'd expect, sadly. :(
Quote from: merlin on Mar 12, 2008, 11:41:24
Malc, what's "a private tracker "
Private trackers are BT sites where you have to sign up to, and also keep a good ratio of uploads / downloads, but also give much better DL speeds.
Some are quite easy to sign up to, others have sign up times now and then, then their are the invitation only ones.
Do a google search for Bit torrent sites, and look for ones with require you to sign up - like here, with a username and password. :)
Yipee. 5000 posts, Malc, you've moved in. :) :congrats: :karmic:
thx malc for the reply on private trackers
congrats on reaching 5000 posts
Quote from: Malc on Mar 11, 2008, 14:03:04
Add to that
http://www.myp2p.eu/
for live premiership football!
Not more £20 a month to SKY ;D
Sopcast was the reason for upgrading my anti-virus software so I would not go anywhere near myp2p again. :mad:
Interesting read.
I'll put my hand up and admit I may have on occasion downloaded a mp3 or the odd divx file over the years.
I also actually buy lots of dvd's and CD's and even the very expensive blu ray films.
I wonder if this is all for the benefit of the music industry, or more realistically for the 17.5 % VAT they don't get from every illegal download. ::)
Good point, Bob. The only thing we can be sure of is that the motivation is financial, not moral.
It is an interesting read - and really saying nothing new at the same time. It all comes down to the greedy entertainment industry - they pretend to have the artists interests at heart, when we all know that all they are thinking of is their own pockets. The same goes for the Government - they don't really care one way or the other - just that money talks as usual, and they want to be seen to be doing something to appease the industry. :rant2:
And get their 17.5%
That's true malc - the REAL motivation in all this......
At the end of the day, if CDs, DVDs, and legal downloads were a reasonable price, most peeps WOULD pay for them. As it is, they are not, and that's what causes most of the problem - all imo of course.
As I've said before - perhaps the Govt should ask the industry why they charge us twice as much as they charge the Americans. They certainly can't argue production or operating costs when it comes to iTunes. :mad:
I think I've said this before but perhaps a license to d/l films/music over 5 years old with the proceeds being paid to the artists instead of Brown' coffers would be a good idea. In the case of software the 'puter mags give it away for free anyway after a few years of upgrades.
That would make good sense, though there are always going to be those who don't want to pay anything, of course.
I don't pay for software if I can help it. I use the op0n source stuff or older apps given away on magazines. Fair enough I pay for the magazines and the older software is absolutely fine for may needs and i all seems to run faster than some of the later upgraded software. I buy any music I want but that amounts to about 1 CD every 2-3 years and I don't watch films so don't buy dvd's. Also I don't play games. I expect I am a poor customer for all theses bigger companies but, hey, who cares. ;D ;D
Quote from: Rik on Mar 13, 2008, 16:08:32
That would make good sense, though there are always going to be those who don't want to pay anything, of course.
yep - that's true, but there are a lot of peeps who only download illegally because they are fed up of getting ripped off, and who would purchase music, DVDs if the price is right
I'm one of them.
Quote from: Malc on Mar 13, 2008, 19:16:53
I'm one of them.
Are you sure you meant that as it looks Malc? >:D ;D
A Hoob or someone who would buy? You decide
AAAAArrrrrggggggghhh - the agony of choice ;D
Well, I won't be buying any of todays (c)rap that's for sure :puke:
Does that imply you would buy yesterday's?? :o
Quote from: Rik on Mar 14, 2008, 09:26:38
Does that imply you would buy yesterday's?? :o
Already bought most of it, on singles, that I can't play anymore.
So, I have the
licence already. ;D I'm just patching it. :whistle:
But, I have bought Time Life Comps, and would do so more,
IF we paid the same as the US
Oddly enough, music, unlike software, gives you no licence. Technically, you infringe copyright if you make a backup for your own purposes. Musical rights are a minefield.
If I like it enough I'll buy it, the original is better in a collection with it's original case, artwork etc.
But I download it first, play it to death to see if starts to irritate, like a lot of modern "pop" does.
If a piece of music is worth keeping, I always prefer to go for the CD. Better quality plus the sleeve notes. I don't buy a lot, well any actually, of pop though. More jazz, folk and classical.
I'm afraid I'm a bit of a pleb as regards my choice in music, I tend to pick out the "catchy" bits in classical, but I cant get my head around jazz, it sounds to me like a band tuning up, or a group of musicians all playing the same tune, but with different notes :eek4:
I had a somewhat eclectic upbringing musically, so there's little I don't like (but RAP and punk would be part of that group!). Try and listen to some Jamie Cullum or Diana Krall - they're a good route into jazz.
Quote from: talos on Mar 14, 2008, 10:33:55
I'm afraid I'm a bit of a pleb as regards my choice in music, I tend to pick out the "catchy" bits in classical, but I cant get my head around jazz, it sounds to me like a band tuning up, or a group of musicians all playing the same tune, but with different notes :eek4:
A touch of the Morcambe and Wise methinks. ;D
:rofl: :karmic:
QuoteA touch of the Morcambe and Wise methinks.
Yes but not necessarily in the same order
wasn't it "the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order"? :)
Quote from: madasahatter on Mar 15, 2008, 08:58:52
wasn't it "the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order"? :)
Quite right :pat:
Actually, I think it was "all the right notes...". >:D
... in which order?
See reply #64. ;)
Don't mix the replays up, or this could get confusing.
So would you like a super slo-mo replay? ;D
Move along, I'm confused enough. :react:
Quote from: lona on Mar 11, 2008, 23:53:45
Who on here has the courage to admit they do the same.? :hide:
The only music I have downloaded from P2P is actually music that I already own. I used to have my collection MP3d but on two occasions the hard drive died, so I used P2P to get it back even though I can actually see the CDs from here.
I've no idea on the legality of that, but as I own the music already, I'm pretty sure I'm safe. As for software, everything on this PC is paid for, with the exception of free software :)
That reminds me, I need to MP3 my Eric Clapton collection again.
Quote from: Niall on Mar 15, 2008, 11:57:42
I've no idea on the legality of that, but as I own the music already, I'm pretty sure I'm safe.
That's still illegal - as is ripping CDs you have bought to your computer so you can put them on to your mp3 player - ridiculous but true :mad:
Indeed. To do so you need the agreement of the rights holders and a licence from the Mechanical Copyright Protection Society. Technically.
That's not true. You are allowed to make back up copies of your own, for personal use. At least that's what was the case when I last read the law on it.
Not yet you're not - according to this anyway:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/news/20080108_copy.shtml
Quote from: Niall on Mar 15, 2008, 12:05:18
That's not true. You are allowed to make back up copies of your own, for personal use. At least that's what was the case when I last read the law on it.
That's the permission of the rights holder, but the recording of copyrighted music still requires an MCPS licence, technically.
Quote from: madasahatter on Mar 15, 2008, 12:08:47
Not yet you're not - according to this anyway:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/news/20080108_copy.shtml
Well that's very strange because I remember it being clearly stated that you can make back ups of anything you have purchased yourself, for private use. I can't remember where that information was given, but I'm pretty certain it was accurate when it was said.
I'm never convinced of anything the BBC report, so I may do some looking into that.
What ever the rule now, I WILL be MP3ing music I've paid for and no one is going to stop me :)
Actually, if they say you can't create mp3s of music you own, what happens if you buy the music online and then transfer it to your laptop? You're effectively "ripping" the music file then, or technically duplicating it, so that means by moving it the 1ft from my PC to my laptop, I'm breaking the law. I've got a few albums I've bought online, like Nizlopis first album.
Quote from: Niall on Mar 15, 2008, 12:12:37
What ever the rule now, I WILL be MP3ing music I've paid for and no one is going to stop me :)
It's not gonna stop me - ahem - "my friend" either ;D
I agree with Niall. When you buy a CD, you are purchasing the right to listen to the material contained therein, and therefore, for personal use, you should be able to transfer that material to any format or media you like.
Hell, if you upheld the letter of the law, you're probably breaking the law by taking the CD round to a mate's house and listening to it there!
I agree that you SHOULD be able to Simon - just pointing out that technically you're not. Technically, you are purchasing the right to listen to the material on THAT CD - not actually purchasing any rights to the material contained on it at all. :no:
Quote from: Simon on Mar 15, 2008, 12:19:55
Hell, if you upheld the letter of the law, you're probably breaking the law by taking the CD round to a mate's house and listening to it there!
Yes, that could be considered to fall under public performance. :)
Copyright law on music is a jungle.
The only stuff I download from Bittorrent these days is software (perfectly legal FOSS stuff like Linux ISOs and OpenOffice and things) and US TV shows I want to keep up with as I don't want to have to wait a year to see them (NCIS and House).
Films I don't have the patience to watch much anymore, and any music I don't already have I listen to on an internet radio station. I buy a CD probably about once a year, DVDs about 3 times a year, and I've stopped buying games and software since I'm never in Windows long enough to play them (with the exception of Darwinia, as I play that on Linux). I go to the cinema a few times a year, as that's normally my reward for managing the MetroCentre.
I used to download loads, but most of it I then bought legally, if I liked it. A try before you buy system :)
A side of downloading that the industry choose to ignore, of course, Danni. :(
hmm i dont have a problem downloading illegaly
but most of the stuff i download i will end up owning im a bit like Danni
so im not fused when i download
house
stargate atlantis
or the new terminator TV series
as pritty much as soon as i have the money and of course they are released in the UK i will go and buy the season i have been downloading that year. Just wish that TV boses would learn that they shouldnt have stupid airing times for us in the UK and make us constantly wait.
would save me loads of bandwidth...
That's an interesting point Colin - if TV, movies etc were released at the same time all across the world (and I really can't see any valid reason for them not to), it would stop a lot of the "piracy" going on. But then that would be far too much like common sense wouldn't it? >:D
I remember recording music from the radio on my Grundig reel to reel over forty years ago, they said that was illegal but the powers that be couldn't put a stop it and I never heard of anybody being prosecuted.
Pirating the pirates, eh Wilf. :)
Quote from: madasahatter on Mar 16, 2008, 07:52:45
That's an interesting point Colin - if TV, movies etc were released at the same time all across the world (and I really can't see any valid reason for them not to), it would stop a lot of the "piracy" going on. But then that would be far too much like common sense wouldn't it? >:D
I made that point earlier on in this thread!
I do get TV shows from torrent sites, but I also buy them when they're released on DVD (please make them release HUFF Season 2, which they cancelled in mid series, but at least it has a sort of ending :(). The room I'm sitting in now is like a mini cinema, with DVDs and CDs everywhere. There's barely enough room for me to move!
{edit} The one thing I really don't agree with when it comes to "piracy" is TV shows. We have DVD and video recorders to record things straight off TV. EVERYONE has given a friend a show to watch that you've taped/recorded the night before, at some point. I know they are now saying that even doing that is illegal, but seriously, they need to get their collective heads out of their rear ends. Again, as I've said before, release everything at the same time. They would be more likely to continue shows if they saw how well thought of they were in the UK, that they cancel mid series.
Sorry Niall - obviously missed that :blush:
I'll let you off this time, but next time you'll have to buy me some diet coke :D
Can't see Rik drinking that
It's the only thing I drink, Malc. Caffeine free.
My, you are a good boy Rik - wish I could stay away from the neer, but I just get like Homer Simpson when I think about it ;D
Unfortunately, my body doesn't tolerate alcohol at all, Mad. Even the amount in some medication can cripple me. Life is not fair. :'(
Wow - that's rough Rik - sorry to hear that. :(
Think of the money I'm saving though. ;D
That's true - I suppose if I added up all the money I've spent on beer I'd horrify myself :o
Smokers would probably get much more of a fright. :o
Unfortunately, I fall into that category too - I started when the stress of working with Jerry got too much, and I've never been able to quit >:D
I grew up with my father, mother and, in due course, sister smoking. I have never even tried a cigarette in my life - the smell about them just put me off. Strange, you'd have expected the opposite really.
I think it often works that way Rik. My parents never smoked or drank, yet me and my two brothers always did both.
I used to drink, but not heavily. I think I was a disappointment to my parents in that respect. When I had to stop (found out the hard way), I just did. Only very rarely do I get the urge, usually when there's champagne around, or on a summer's evening for a beer.
Hey
This may be of interest to some. A talk on the past, present and future of piracy, made me think about a few things. The primary one being future piracy producing physical objects through 3dprinting. 3d printers prices are coming down, imagine downloading plans for a shoe, and then printing them on your printer, mental stuff.
video link below. interesting stuff.
http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirates-dilemma-080314/
I love the idea of a 3D printer, theoretically, you could download the business side of a CD and reproduce it! Interesting talk.