I am new to this forum but am a member of many others although Tiscali have just shut me out of their's for getting a MAC and joining IDNET ;)
I am posting because I have a mystery with the main machine on my two machine home network in that the ADSL line drops when the main one is starting up! The second PC on my network does not do this no matter which one you power up first. I use a Netgear DG 834 ADSL Modem/Router and this did not happen when I had a 2 Mbps fixed rate broadband connection. Both machine run XP Pro with all updates that are available.
With TiscaliMax my IP profile was 3000 kbps but in the evening my downstream speeds were sub 0.3 Mbps. As soon as I was connected to IDNet I was getting 2.8 Mbps downstream speeds all day to begin with but I think because the main machine drops the line each time its boots up this IP Profile is now down to 2500 kbps and my downstream speeds have dropped by 500 kbps in sympathy. :(
I know that I really should wait the 10 days BT "training period" but this afternoon curiosity got the better of me and I re-jigged things always round without any explanation coming to light other than that my main machine and to a lesser extent its monitor are generating noise in a way I do not comprehend. Mains born seemed to be one possibility.
At one point this afternoon I had the second machine syncing at 5684 kbps and a 6 db noise margin! I had to look three time as I did not believe what I was seeing having never connected previously at more than 4000 kbps as viewed from the main machine As soon as I switch on and start the other machine, however, the ADSL line drops (the ADSL LED goes out and come on again a few seconds later) and the modem re-syncs at a lower speed that was typically 3500 kbps but at what is now this evening, a dire 2592 kbps! Yes I have made matters worse! :'(
I am presently using the second machine that is upstairs to see if the BT training will "recover" while this machine is on alone with these numbers:
Connection Speed 3904 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 10 db 20 db
This afternoon I untangled the downstairs network cables from the mains cables that the main machine uses, run this main PC and its monitor on an extension cables from a socket way up the hall miles away from where the Netgear Router is located, re-situated the router on the floor about 2'6" below where it usually sits and it was here that I first saw the 5684 kbps Connection Speed using the second machine. This may have just been a coincidence that this freaky high speed occurred when I moved the router. I did see connection speeds above 5100 kbps a number of times with it on the floor. It was 5150 before I went for my tea with a 3db noise margin but when I looked after tea it had reconnected at 3808 kbps so it must have succumbed to noise but the router was still on the floor and the main machine was still off.
At one point I even wrapped the dc input supply wire to the Netgear router from the wall-wart once through a "ferrite" core but no benefit was perceptible.
Anyway with extension cables and wires here there and everywhere I decided to give up and put things back as they were but not as tightly bundled as before. Like this as soon as the downstairs PC starts up the line drops and the connection (sync) speed is now a dire 2592 kbps! I have tried a couple of times and there is no difference. So who knows what the BT line training has made of todays antics! At the moment this upstairs PC is connected through Router port 1 and the main machine is in router port 2, which is the opposite way round to how I previously had them as another process elimination.
Every time I try some things and the line drops a few times BT dock me 500 kbps from my IP profile and then my throughput speeds are that much slower.
I have just run the BT speed tester from the second machine and this is what it gives me this evening:
IP profile for your line is - 2500 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 3904 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2284 kbps
I did have an IP profile of 3000 kbps before I started investigating the problem with my main machine! So I am at a loss as to how to proceed. Any help or ideas would be very welcome. :-X
Welcome, Les, sorry I can't help! ex Tiscali here too >:( am sure someone will be around soon to help :)
Karma for you :)
:welc: :karmic:
I think you've as good as proven that the main PC is causing the router to lose sync, probably due to noise. Perhaps it has a faulty PSU. Do you connect it via a surge protector? That might help.
Telephone extension wiring is generally very prone to noise pickup. You could try removing the ring wire from each socket to see if this stops the issue from occurring. For every socket on the line, open it up and pull out the ring wire (always connected to terminal 3, and probably orange in colour). The other thing that is probably wise is to get a high quality RJ11-RJ11 lead to connect the router to the phone line, as the ones supplied with routers are of poor quality and will pick up noise.
With the number of times a day this issue is probably occurring, your profile is never really going to have a chance to recover. The training has nothing to do with it; the only reason there is a training period is to establish a MSR (Maximum Stable Rate) and from that a FTR (Fault Threshold Rate). The service is constantly rate-adaptive. Therefore, we need to work on finding/eliminating the cause of the re-syncs, then you'll have a stable connection and the profile will recover.
I hope this helps as a starting point. :)
Hi Sebby,
Thanks for the reply and the advice :).
The bell wire and the wire on termianl 4 have been removed at the matser Socket and I tried a CAT5 cable with RJ11's on each end from an ADSL filter in the inner test socket of my BT Master Socket directly to the Router when struggling with Tiscali's sub 0.3 Mbps evening peak time down-stream speeds! My internal telephone extension wiring was done years ago for voice telephony but my tests with the CAT5 cable eliminated it as a major issue and of course when the second PC is on alone all is well. The max. my local exchange is reportedly able to let me reliably sycn at is 4500 kbps so I know that I will not see any really high speeds.
All sorts of things are in my mind about the main PC tonight.
Fans for one, as one case fan has a speed controller. Was it a simple resistor one I can't remember. It is a couple of years since I built this machine. The power supply was new not long before Christmas and an overly generous 650 watt one at that but it could still be noisy I guess.
In Stafford we suffered a nasty series of mains supply interruption one evening last summer that caused people problems at home and at work and my main machines' LAN port on the Motherboard failed not long after this event so I put a PCI LAN card in and it does seem to have been doing the business OK ever since. I put an in-line mains surge arrester in series in the PC mains lead shortly after that and have tried with it in and out today! That said something is amiss tracking it down what it is, is the challenge.
I was concerned about some locking down on speed that I have read about that BT do if they determine that your line is bad but I am out of my depth here. :-[
The ring wire is terminal 3, Les. Also, you must remove it from every socket; removing it only from the master socket won't help.
That aside, I just want to clear something up. Speed and sync are very different. With Tiscali, you were suffering speed issues, due to their over-subscribed network. On IDNet you won't suffer that, but your sync is obviously going to limit the possible speed. Also, it's not your exchange that supports 4.5Mb; that's your line (and it's only a rough estimate, though you should be able to achieve at least that). Your exchange supports up to 8Mb; it's your line between the exchange and your house that determines the rate you can sync at. In addition, it looks like there's something going on inside your property that is causing the quality of your line to deteriorate more.
I'm not following what you tried with Cat5. Are you saying you moved the second PC to another room and ran a Cat5 network cable to it from the router in its original position?
Usually, I'd advise people having noise issues to try the test socket, but I think we've already seen that when you connect away from the PC, the sync is much improved.
For now, I think we should start by getting the ring wire removed from each socket so we know that's not picking up unnecessary noise along the way, and take it from there. :)
Hi, Les, and welcome to the forum.
Thought I would point out that you won't have another training period, due to being on a MAX product prior to migrating.
One thing you could try is detuning a tranny radio and walking around with it or holding it next to the pc. You'll be able then to here if it is emitting lots of noise.
:welc: Les! You're in good hands here, and I'm sure these guys will get to the bottom of your problem. :)
Welcome Les, have a Karma.
:welc: :karmic:
Les, :welc: and Idnet have another :karmic: from me.
Hi Les
Welcome to the forum. :)
What Sebby and Lance have said is good advice. My own instinct is the PSU, and the tranny radio will confirm if that's the case. It's probably worth mentioning it needs to be on the MW band and de-tuned, then move about with it listening for an increase in white noise or static.
Welcom Les. Did you turn off the mobo lan from the bios? Just a silly thought but it can sometimes be overlooked. :welc:
Well Folks one and all I don't know where to start but never short of a word as you may have noticed here goes.
The welcome to the IDNet forum is overwhelming thanks to everyone.
At my time of life I am not losing sleep over the matter so there is time to bottom it out.
Today was another day and it brought another puzzle the "noisy" machine isn't noisy today"
With only it working this is what my Netgear Stats say right now:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2816 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 39 db 13 db
Noise Margin 12 db 21 db
I got up this morning with an urge to have this machine apart disconnect a couple of fans and swap out the New PSU for the old one that still works but needs a "kick start" sometimes to get it started.
The Noise Margin of 12 db made me hold fire even though the Connection Speed was low compared to what I have been seeing. The only difference today of any significance is that I have the in-line mains surge arrester out of circuit but I am sure I have tried without it before.
I have not tried the second machine today other than to boot it up to the XP Welcome screen while watching the Netgear Stats on the first/main machine and they did not waver. The second machine is shut down again now.
To elaborate on what I did with my length of CAT5 cable with RJ11's on it:
My BT Master Socket with the removable bottom half of the face plate behind which is what I refer to as the inner test socket is in my hall at the bottom of the stairs.
The second PC that work as I believe it should is at the top of these stairs in a space on the landing.
The first/main machine in eight feet down the hall and round a corner in an "alcove".
The distribution for three CAT5 RJ45 network cables that run into two bedrooms and to the second machine on the landing all start from the back corner of this alcove. The fourth port on the Netgear router serves the main machine that shares the top of my desk with the router but they are at opposite ends about 3 feet apart with the monitor in between.
There is a telephone extension socket in this alcove as well (with its bell wire removed too) that the Netgear Modem is connected to via an ADSL filter. My relatively new CAT5 network cables and the old telephone extension wiring are all in the walls and under the floor upstairs out of sight.
To eliminate my telephone extension wiring I made up a longish length of CAT5 cable with a couple of RJ11 plugs on it.
I removed the lower face plate of my Master socket thereby disconnection my extension wiring, plugged an ADSL filter into the BT inner test socket and ran my newly made up CAT5 cable from the ADSL RJ11 socket in this filter straight into the ADSL RJ11 input socket on the Netgear Router. So there was nothing connected to the incoming BT pair other than my router.
Like this the Connection (Sync) Speed and the Noise Margin as displayed in the Router Stats were not significantly different than with the connection made through my old telephone extension wires.
In fact no different as far as I could determine.
I do realise that the sub 0.3 Mbps peak time speed I had with Tiscali was due to contention in their system but the ex-Tiscali folks reading this will know that Tiscali's first line of defence is to attack and that means always blame their customer kit/installation even in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary! Hence all my check to be sure as I could that it was indeed them and not me. I also appreciate the difference between Connection Speed and the Downstream Speeds speed testers like the thinkbroadband one measure. I did think that my exchange was limiting me to 4.5 Mbps max but can understand when told that it is a combination of things including my line. I am 1.62 km from the exchange as the crow flies.
Today I am relaxed and using the main machine just as it is. I will give the transistor radio check a go. This last time I booted the main machine up I had the Netgear router switched off (I normally leave it on all of the time) so the line negotiation was after whatever it is that the PC does to drop the line during its start up process but I still only got a Connection Speed of 2816 kbps whereas until I frigged with things yesterday it was 3500 kbps + but never with a noise margin of 12 db. 6 db was the highest I had seen until recently.
Oh bye the way support at IDNet told me I would undergo another 10 day BT trialling period when I asked if the one I had done with Tiscali was it.
I don't see how but can BT influence the Noise Margin my Netgear measures? That is a does a lower connection speed equate to a higher noise margin and vice versa?
Thanks again for such a lot of replies and if I have missed something I will try and catch up later! :)
Hi Les
Max starts with a target noise margin of 6db, and then gets the line to go as fast as it can and remain stable. If it can't achieve stability, it will try interleaving, and if that doesn't work, it will increase the target margin in 3db increments, to a maximum of 15db. It looks to me as if the line management software has seen the instability and reacted, increasing the target margin which, in turn drops your sync speed by 5-700k per 3db. Unfortunately, the only way to recover from this situation is to maintain a stable sync for 14 days (15 to be safe) after which you should be able to re0sync and find the target margin is reduced by 3db. Repeat until you reach 6db again.
Obviously, you need to resolve the problem in order for this to work for you. :(
Quote from: LesD on Feb 16, 2008, 16:02:55
The Noise Margin of 12 db made me hold fire even though the Connection Speed was low compared to what I have been seeing. The only difference today of any significance is that I have the in-line mains surge arrester out of circuit but I am sure I have tried without it before.
As Rik describes, BT set your target SNRM to 6dB initially, and this can increased in 3dB increments to stabilise your line. Two things could've happened here. Firstly, your target could have been upped to 12dB. But, I don't think you're experiencing enough disconnects for this to happen. More likely is that, due to the noise bursts that your line is suffering, you connected at a noisy time with a SNRM of 6dB, and since then the noise has subsided, and so the current SNRM is quite high. Probably if you reconnect now, you'll sync higher at 6dB, but then the connection will drop again once the noise resurfaces.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 16, 2008, 16:02:55To elaborate on what I did with my length of CAT5 cable with RJ11's on it:
My BT Master Socket with the removable bottom half of the face plate behind which is what I refer to as the inner test socket is in my hall at the bottom of the stairs.
The second PC that work as I believe it should is at the top of these stairs in a space on the landing.
The first/main machine in eight feet down the hall and round a corner in an "alcove".
The distribution for three CAT5 RJ45 network cables that run into two bedrooms and to the second machine on the landing all start from the back corner of this alcove. The fourth port on the Netgear router serves the main machine that shares the top of my desk with the router but they are at opposite ends about 3 feet apart with the monitor in between.
There is a telephone extension socket in this alcove as well (with its bell wire removed too) that the Netgear Modem is connected to via an ADSL filter. My relatively new CAT5 network cables and the old telephone extension wiring are all in the walls and under the floor upstairs out of sight.
To eliminate my telephone extension wiring I made up a longish length of CAT5 cable with a couple of RJ11 plugs on it.
I removed the lower face plate of my Master socket thereby disconnection my extension wiring, plugged an ADSL filter into the BT inner test socket and ran my newly made up CAT5 cable from the ADSL RJ11 socket in this filter straight into the ADSL RJ11 input socket on the Netgear Router. So there was nothing connected to the incoming BT pair other than my router.
Like this the Connection (Sync) Speed and the Noise Margin as displayed in the Router Stats were not significantly different than with the connection made through my old telephone extension wires.
In fact no different as far as I could determine.
Okay. I was under the impression that doing this improved things. I do wonder if the tests you've done so far have been a bit misleading. As I mentioned above, your SNRM is probably fluctuating a lot, and so reconnecting the router away from the computer could have just caused your sync to increase if there was not a lot of noise around at that point.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 16, 2008, 16:02:55I do realise that the sub 0.3 Mbps peak time speed I had with Tiscali was due to contention in their system but the ex-Tiscali folks reading this will know that Tiscali's first line of defence is to attack and that means always blame their customer kit/installation even in the face of irrefutable evidence to the contrary! Hence all my check to be sure as I could that it was indeed them and not me. I also appreciate the difference between Connection Speed and the Downstream Speeds speed testers like the thinkbroadband one measure. I did think that my exchange was limiting me to 4.5 Mbps max but can understand when told that it is a combination of things including my line. I am 1.62 km from the exchange as the crow flies.
I'm a similar distiance from the exchange - in fact a little more (with attenuation of 46dB) - and I actually have a target SNRM of 9dB (set manually by BT for stability) and sync at around 4.5Mb, so I'd expect you to sync at this figure or higher consistently. Tiscali's network is not helping your speed, but until we sort out the stability, your bRAS profile is going to be all the over the place anyway, so Tiscali's network is not the end of the world at the moment.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 16, 2008, 16:02:55Today I am relaxed and using the main machine just as it is. I will give the transistor radio check a go. This last time I booted the main machine up I had the Netgear router switched off (I normally leave it on all of the time) so the line negotiation was after whatever it is that the PC does to drop the line during its start up process but I still only got a Connection Speed of 2816 kbps whereas until I frigged with things yesterday it was 3500 kbps + but never with a noise margin of 12 db. 6 db was the highest I had seen until recently.
I think I've pretty much covered this above. But I'll just add that with Max, you should be looking to have a pretty consistent sync at 6dB. The fact that it's 12dB is as I mentioned already - either your target has increased (I think probably unlikely) or noise has just reduced since you sync'd.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 16, 2008, 16:02:55I don't see how but can BT influence the Noise Margin my Netgear measures? That is a does a lower connection speed equate to a higher noise margin and vice versa?
They only control it to a degree. They control the target figure, which is their way of ensuring that your line syncs at a rate that it will be stable at. They don't control the actual noise; some of this will be unavoidable (i.e. external to your property) and some will be controllable by your (e.g. filtered faceplate, etc, as we mentioned last night).
If you use the normal cable that came with your router and connect to the test socket, can you always sync consistently high or does is fluctuate wildly even without extension wiring in the equation?
I have had an element of success with the transistor radio technique. :)
First off there was so much noise apparently everwhere that I was in despair but soon I realised that some of it round the router was most likely the ADSL so I turned everything off and started them up one at a time. To cut a long story short with the mains supplies running to the left of my "alcove" and the router and its power supply on the floor (to get it as far away from the monitor as I can) at the right of the "alcove", the main PC will boot without dropping the ADSl line.
Thanks so far I know I would have got to this point without you guys!
It was because the main PC was dropping the ADSL line as it came up that I started changing things round but before I did I was syncing at circa 3500 kbps with a noise margin of 6 db pretty consistently as seen from the main machine. Now, however, I sync round 2800 kbps with a 10-12db noise margin so if I understand what you are telling me I have managed to get BT to reduce my sync speed and increase the noise margin to try to restabilse things after I started upsetting the apple cart!
What was a complete mystery to me is beginning to make some sort of sense now thanks to you guys but one thing that still puzzles me is that with the main machine turned off whatever BT has done in terms of sync speed and noise margin, the second PC upstairs still syncs at over 3500 kbps with the 10-12 db noise margin! ???
What BT do surely cannot be PC dependent! :o
The sync speed should be the same regardless of which PC you use. However, if the main machine is emitting noise, and you re-sync while it's on, it could mean a lower speed, with it off, a re-sync will not see so much noise, so will pick up the extra speed. Does that fit with what you're doing?
One thing to watch, don't re-sync more than 10 times in an hour, that will be seen as instability and will result in a dropped profile.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 16, 2008, 19:49:05
The sync speed should be the same regardless of which PC you use.
That is what I thought
Quote from: Rik on Feb 16, 2008, 19:49:05However, if the main machine is emitting noise, and you re-sync while it's on, it could mean a lower speed, with it off, a re-sync will not see so much noise, so will pick up the extra speed. Does that fit with what you're doing?
The main machine is emitting noise, the transistor radio picks it up in the mains cables, which is why I moved them as far from the router as I could. I do not seem to be re-syncing inadvertently and this maybe because my Netgear is more noise tolerant than some other router or so I read on the Kitz site.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 16, 2008, 19:49:05One thing to watch, don't re-sync more than 10 times in an hour, that will be seen as instability and will result in a dropped profile.
I reckon that I have already fallen foul of this one at least twice. Last Weds/Thurs when I dropped from connecting at 3800ish to 3300ish to now after yesterday and today to 2800ish!
I have probably got an IP profile of 2000 kbps by now. :(
I will try and leave things as they are for a few days to see if my sync speed improves.
I don't know whether it is best the leave the router permanently on, which has been my usual practice or to switch it off when the PC's are not in use. The main PC was causing a line re-negotiation each time it booted and that was at most twice a day but that was before I started my investigations I could easily have exceeded 10 re-connections in an hour while trying various alternatives!
Netgears are strange on noise, they fluctuate wildly in the margins they report, but they seem to hold the line regardless, down to about -2db in my case, which is technically impossible. The new v4 seems to be more stable in this respect.
Did you determine which component of the main machine is giving off noise, eg monitor or main box? Is there any swapping you can try to see if things change?
I always leave my router on 24/7 unless I'm away or there is lightning about. In your situation, it might help to power it down overnight, just to make sure you don't get any extra re-syncs, but it's a marginal thing.
Quote from: cavillas on Feb 16, 2008, 11:23:35
Welcom Les. Did you turn off the mobo lan from the bios? Just a silly thought but it can sometimes be overlooked. :welc:
Hi cavillas,
Yes I did and when I rebooted I recall that good old Bill Gates announced that my XP was invalid as it thought it was in another machine due the some points score they have for a LAN and said I must go on line and re-activate it within 48 hours. Such a friendly chap to kick me when I was down. How was I supposed to do that with no LAN connection. So I nipped out to PC World for the PCI one and got connected with it and re-activated my Genuine XP I am pleased to say. :)
Quote from: Rik on Feb 16, 2008, 20:28:54
Netgears are strange on noise, they fluctuate wildly in the margins they report, but they seem to hold the line regardless, down to about -2db in my case
I have seen 0 db and the line not drop but I don't think mine displays negative values. There is what looks like gobbledegook when the line does drop!
Quote from: Rik on Feb 16, 2008, 20:28:54
Did you determine which component of the main machine is giving off noise, eg monitor or main box? Is there any swapping you can try to see if things change?
Both the monitor and the PC were emitting noise. The PC or most likely its PSU seemed the worst of the two but the soap-on-a-rope printer PSU was noisy too. I still have not powered the printer up again. Despite thinking that I had bought a relatively good PSU just before Christmas I am beginning to have some doubts. I still have the old one it had become just a wee bit reluctant to start every time so if needs must I could put it back and see what sort of difference it makes but that's not at the top of my list right now as I do think I have improved matters.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 16, 2008, 20:28:54
I always leave my router on 24/7 unless I'm away or there is lightning about. In your situation, it might help to power it down overnight, just to make sure you don't get any extra re-syncs, but it's a marginal thing.
I think I will stick with the 24/7 approach as that's the way I am used to.
Netgears display negative numbers as a very high positive one, two million odd from memory. An experiment you might want to try - connect the old PSU to the mains, see if it is noisy. Easier than changing everything over. :)
Quote from: Rik on Feb 16, 2008, 20:53:28
Netgears display negative numbers as a very high positive one, two million odd from memory. An experiment you might want to try - connect the old PSU to the mains, see if it is noisy. Easier than changing everything over. :)
Ah maybe thats what I described as the gobbledegook! I don't think the PSU I have will run without a connection to a motherboard unless you know better that is?
I have just run my transistor radio over my walls where I know mains cabling is behind the plasterboard and the radio noise increases in the vicinity of cables pretty much everywhere. There must be enough attenuation or slewing by the time it reaches the PC upstairs for it to survive! I guess though that it is not all due to the PC as I know flourescent lights including the new low energy one emit some noise too!
I shall try another re-start shortly and see if my luck holds and the router holds the line!
Quote from: LesD on Feb 16, 2008, 21:14:07
I shall try another re-start shortly and see if my luck holds and the router holds the line!
Well so far so good that's another re-start from power off the PC and the Monitor to back on with the printer powered up too without the Router losing the line or re-connecting. It has held the line for 2 hours and 18 minutes now so it is looking promising. :)
Thank again to all who have contributed and to Rik and Sebby in particular :solved:
Well time will tell if my connection speed recovers!
It may make you puff ....... but it would be interesting if you swopped over the upstairs/downstairs computers. ;D
It might prove/disprove something!!
;)
A belated welcome Les.
You've probably gathered by know that I wasn't fibbing (via Tiswas PM) about this being a very friendly and extremely helpful forum.
A karma on the way and another one if you promise to never mention IDNet on the Tisc forum ever again. ;D
Keep us posted, Les. Mo's idea is a good one, if you don't mind the exercise. Even changing the orientation of the PC might help. I don't know anything more than you about your PSU, btw... :)
I'm glad you've potentially sorted it, Les. I'm sorry I wasn't around yesterday for the rest of the discussion, but as always, Rik has done us proud. :)
Guys,
Mohuk, Drummer, Rik, Sebby one and all thanks again for the Welcome, Help & Advice as I said already it has been overwhelming! :thnks:
BTW Drummer there is no fear of me posting on Tiscali ever again. Since about Wednesday last week the only thing my Access Credentials work for is my Bill!
I have made the major breakthrough, which I know you guys had already guessed was the root cause of my problem. Now who was it said keep us posted.... which if you are sitting comfortably I will do but it's a major read!
These are this mornings numbers and today at last I can get the same result from both machines!
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4256 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 41 db 13 db
Noise Margin 9 db 24 db
The above copy and paste is from the main machine downstairs and that is the highest connection speed I have ever read with this machine booted up since I have had ADSL Max!
Taking the advice given to me on this forum the breakthrough yesterday was using my little transistor radio off tune on the Medium Wave and moving it round the components of my system listening to the noise it picked up and there was no doubt that the worst offender was the PC's PSU. Yesterday as the day was getting on I contented myself with moving the mains cables that were carrying this noise as far away from the modem/router as I could and it did improve matters.
This morning, however, with the machine downstairs off, the one upstairs on the landing was connecting at 4256 kbps but as soon as the other one was on it was sub 2800 kbps. I decided to do what I should have done yesterday and put the old PSU back, the one that is reluctant to start up on occasions. Sure enough it took a couple of flicks of the switch on the mains socket to get it going but once it was all was well with my connection speeds on both machines.
Now is the new PSU faulty? It powers the PC OK so I can see MicroDirect, the supplier, arguing the point but I have contacted them and told them that it is not fit for purpose and await their reply. The invoice date was 06/12/2007 so I reckon I have got a good argument as it is under three months old and been giving me grief since I was switched to adaptive rate broadband.
What I must do is get some days in without the frequent disconnections that have occurred while I have been messing about, so that I can get my IP Profile up again. This is what I get today: :eek4:
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 2000 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 4256 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1847 kbps
My current IP Profile of 2000 kbps means my throughput is sub 2 Mbps till BT take the brakes off and from what I read this can be anything from 3 to 15 days with a stable connection!
I guess time will tell.
Now who knows what's up with my old PSU that makes it tricky to start. I am a dab hand with the soldering iron when I know what to do! :legpull:
Quote from: LesD on Feb 17, 2008, 14:38:37
I have made the major breakthrough, which I know you guys had already guessed was the root cause of my problem. Now who was it said keep us posted.... which if you are sitting comfortably I will do but it's a major read!
These are this mornings numbers and today at last I can get the same result from both machines!
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4256 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 41 db 13 db
Noise Margin 9 db 24 db
Looking good. :)
Quote from: LesD on Feb 17, 2008, 14:38:37The above copy and paste is from the main machine downstairs and that is the highest connection speed I have ever read with this machine booted up since I have had ADSL Max!
Just to clarify, it's not the machines that are connecting at this speed. The router should stay connected, but what was happening is that turning on one of your machines was causing the router to re-sync.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 17, 2008, 14:38:37Taking the advice given to me on this forum the breakthrough yesterday was using my little transistor radio off tune on the Medium Wave and moving it round the components of my system listening to the noise it picked up and there was no doubt that the worst offender was the PC's PSU. Yesterday as the day was getting on I contented myself with moving the mains cables that were carrying this noise as far away from the modem/router as I could and it did improve matters.
This morning, however, with the machine downstairs off, the one upstairs on the landing was connecting at 4256 kbps but as soon as the other one was on it was sub 2800 kbps. I decided to do what I should have done yesterday and put the old PSU back, the one that is reluctant to start up on occasions. Sure enough it took a couple of flicks of the switch on the mains socket to get it going but once it was all was well with my connection speeds on both machines.
Now is the new PSU faulty? It powers the PC OK so I can see MicroDirect, the supplier, arguing the point but I have contacted them and told them that it is not fit for purpose and await their reply. The invoice date was 06/12/2007 so I reckon I have got a good argument as it is under three months old and been giving me grief since I was switched to adaptive rate broadband.
So it looks like the PSU is to blame, though you might have a hard time getting it replaced. If so, you might just have to swallow the cost of a new one, but get a half-decent one.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 17, 2008, 14:38:37What I must do is get some days in without the frequent disconnections that have occurred while I have been messing about, so that I can get my IP Profile up again. This is what I get today: :eek4:
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 2000 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 4256 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1847 kbps
My current IP Profile of 2000 kbps means my throughput is sub 2 Mbps till BT take the brakes off and from what I read this can be anything from 3 to 15 days with a stable connection!
Hopefully if you stay sync'd for 3-5 days the profile will update. Stability is the key here. :)
Hi Les
What Sebby said. :)
The profile will recover in 3-5 days unless you have another low sync event. The 15 day figure comes into play when your noise margin has been increased.
On the PSU front, I think your case is strong, as emitting RF noise would be a breach of law. If the retailer doesn't want to play ball, give your Trading Standards people a ring. Under the Sale of Goods Act, it's up to the retailer to prove no fault in the first six months, rather than you having to prove fault.
Hi Folks:
I haven't run the BT Tester this morning but with a thinkbroadband downstream speed of 3318 kbps my IP Profile must be 3500. What do you folks reckon?
19/02/08 06:47 3318.68 Kbps 378.33 Kbps 91.135.10.73 Netgear DG834 :thumb:
Netgear Stats:
System Up Time 24:07:24
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4064 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 41 db 13 db
Noise Margin 6 db 21 db
This was seen in the on the main PC downstairs.
I reckon this is about as good as will I get. ;)
Despite a good "snoop" round the posts on this forum the only way I know to find out what my IP Profile is, is by running the BT Speed Test. Is there another way?
Quote from: LesD on Feb 19, 2008, 08:25:55
Despite a good "snoop" round the posts on this forum the only way I know to find out what my IP Profile is, is by running the BT Speed Test. Is there another way?
I think we all wish there was, Les. :(
The results look right for a 3500 profile, Les, and that also fits your speed. As Simon says, we all wish there was another way to get profile information, but unfortunately there isn't. All we can hope is that BT ramp up capacity at the tester to match the demand.
Thoses stats all look good to me!
Quote from: Lance on Feb 19, 2008, 10:33:06
Thoses stats all look good to me!
I am hoping they remain this way between 7 PM and 10 PM this evening :fingers: but now I am with IDNet my confidence is high.
I am gradually shedding that "Tipex" mentality. :)
After a while, the nightmares will fade and you will sleep soundly again. :)
Hi Folks,
If you can take any more of my ramblings this is what I get this evening.
My thinkbroadband throughput speed is lower than it was this morning, it's back at 2.8 Mbps,
19/02/08 19:27 2822.31 Kbps 378.53 Kbps 91.135.10.73 Netgear DG834
but the router's Connection Speed is lower too:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3744 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 7 db 24 db
I made the cardinal mistake this evening of deciding to tidy things up a bit by fixing the router to the wall below just below desktop level about a foot below where I have had it perched for the last few days and in fact a bit further away from the monitor. Through out my experience with tidying things up the "bird's nest" of wires always works better than the neat and tidy version!
What I expect in reality is that in the day light hours I will most likely get a better connection speed again as I have had a growing suspicion about this for a little while now. The only sense I can make of this idea was borne out to a degree just now because the first time I powered up the router after fixing it to the wall with both computers turned off as it happens, the Connection Speed was 3520 kbps, which did disappoint me! So I switched everything off including the fluorescent lights in the kitchen and a good number of the low energy ones I have wondered about before. Then with my trusty torch in hand I powered up the router again for the 3744 kbps you see above. I have since realised that I had left the fluorescent lights on in the garage, the tumble drier was running and the telly was on, very likely the central heating pump too. As this is the normal electrical environment I guess I shall have to lump it. I know that if I get a higher connection speed like the 4256 kbps I had on Sunday morning, as long as I don't switch the router off or disconnect the line that it will hold on to this speed now that the EMI from my main PC's PSU is not making the line drop when this machine starts up.
Now for a little light relief I have a challenge but there are no prizes for guessing which are the IDNet speed test results and which are the Tiscali ones in the two items I have attached! :nocomment:
Ok the file names are a bit of a give away but take a look how often I had downstream speeds lower than my upstream ones with my previous ISP! :eek4:
[attachment deleted by admin]
Something's still not right. Your sync is too varied for my liking. Night time is inevitably a more noisy time than day, but it shouldn't cause such a drastic change in sync.
I think we need to establish for sure whether this is a BT issue or something inside your property, as it's still not clear. What I want to know is if you get your high sync (~4.2Mb) consistently if you plug into the test socket. If you do, we can be sure it's something inside your property. If you don't, I'd say it's probably a BT issue in which case you can get IDNet to escalate it.
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 19, 2008, 21:33:55
What I want to know is if you get your high sync (~4.2Mb) consistently if you plug into the test socket.
Ok Sebby I will have a go with my CAT5 cable again but it's a job for another day as it is getting near :bed:
What I can do relatatively easily is run my CAT5 cable with the RJ11's on either end from an ADSL filter plugged into the inner test socket of my BT Master Socket directly to the Router's ADSL input socket.
I know there are those who would prefer the router as close to the Master Socket as possible but in my circumstances that constitutes a bigger job for a time when I am a bit less pressed. Anyway there is another 1.62 km plus of "bell wire" between me and the exchange so a few more metres in my house should not make that much difference. One things I should own up to is that between where the router is and the Master Socket is my meter cupboard when the mains comes in through the floor and goes up through the distribution box and off round the house for lights and power. Not the best arrangement but without a bit of demolition and a lot of rewiring that's the way it is. :)
When I run my length of CAT5 cable I take it down the hall as far away as I can from this meter cupboard.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 19, 2008, 21:51:00
Ok Sebby I will have a go with my CAT5 cable again but it's a job for another day as it is getting near :bed:
:lol:
That's understandable. :)
Quote from: LesD on Feb 19, 2008, 21:51:00What I can do relatatively easily is run my CAT5 cable with the RJ11's on either end from an ADSL filter plugged into the inner test socket of my BT Master Socket directly to the Router's ADSL input socket.
That's exactly what you want to do.
See how you go. I just want to establish for definite that it's something inside your property, as it could be a line fault. Good luck! :)
Hi Sebby,
No CAT5 cable tests yet but this morning with my house "electrically quiet" i.e. nothing much switched on just a couple of clocks, the fridge and the freezer that sort of thing, no lights, TV etc. I powered the router off waited 30 seconds and switched it on again.
This is what I got from the router stats:
System Up Time 00:21:35
Port Status RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 123 236 0 14 19 00:21:00
LAN 10M/100M 2616 1970 0 958 239 00:21:31
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3840 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 12 db 25 db
The Noise Margin was up and down between 8 db and 12 db.
So does this morning's sub 4000 kbps connection speed blow away my idea about a noisy electrical evironment in my house. ???
It's a rhetorical question and the next step will be to do the CAT5 cable test again when an opportunity presents it self.
Hi Les
That result suggests that your target noise margin has been increased to 12db, hence the lower sync speed. Until you get your line stable, and hold a sync continuously for 14 days, that margin will not be reduced. You really need to get your wiring sorted asap, because your line should be capable of much more. It's also worth noting that the u/s noise margin is quite low for your attenuation, so there may be an underlying line fault, but until you've ruled out your own wiring you really don't want to go there.
Hi Rik & Sebby,
Thanks for maintaining interest in my problem. I know I am taking a long time to reach a successful outcome but I am trying! :phew: (Hopefully not everyone's patience ;))
This evening I have plugged an ADSL filter into the inner socket of my BT Master socket and run my longish length of CAT5 cable directly from the ADSL socket in the filter to the RJ11 socket in my Router. When I put the RJ11 plugs on this length of cable I made sure that it was one of the twisted pairs that I used to go to pins 3 & 4 in the RJ11 plugs (the middle pair) and I swapped them over from one end to the other. I had the PC off just in case when I next powered up the router and saw the ADSL LED become green and stable. Then I switched on and started the PC and its monitor. The ADSL LED stayed on while the PC booted as it has done since I changed PSU in this PC. This is the result I obtained:
System Up Time 00:09:15
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 83 132 0 26 33 00:08:47
LAN 10M/100M 1244 957 0 1049 275 00:09:11
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3616 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 39 db 13 db
Noise Margin 7 db 25 db
I have seen the Noise Margin go from 6 db to 9 db and back again as I watch. I think you said Rik that Netgear DG834's are a bit flaky with the Noise Margin readings so maybe that something to do with this aspect. The System Up Time is now 00:50:00. I shall leave it till the hour is up so that I don't have too many disconnection to try and avoid dropping my IP Profile too far and then I will boot the router again and see if there is any significant difference.
The figures I posted this morning namely:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3840 kbps 448 kbps
did maintain all day with the router left on as I took a look before I started out on this latest exercise.
I wish I knew what is different now to when I had the numbers:
Connection Speed 4256 kbps 448 kbps
on Sunday after I had first swapped the PSU in my PC.
I will keep you posted. :)
Hi Les,
It's difficult to say whether your target SNRM has been increased now, and that makes things even more difficult. I must say that it did look like it was the case earlier, but not tonight.
You've got to remember that night time is always noisier than day, so you'll almost always sync lower at night.
For now, what I want to see is that you have stability in the master socket. Is there any chance you could leave it how it is for a couple of days, i.e. with the filter in the test socket (perhaps if you have DECT phones you can move the base station to the master socket)? I know it's probably a bit inconvenient, but I think we really need to see if things are stable in the master socket. Previously, you were suffering several re-syncs a day, so this should say if your internal wiring is to blame (for whatever reason) pretty quickly.
Let us know how you get on and we'll take it from there. :)
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 20, 2008, 20:24:35
For now, what I want to see is that you have stability in the master socket. Is there any chance you could leave it how it is for a couple of days, i.e. with the filter in the test socket
Ah too late already! The Health and Safety Executive in my house (that's me) could not leave it that way because it is a trip hazard for grandchildren and my wife who would probably be more at risk than the kids!
I am already back on my internal extension wiring and there is a comfort for me at least as the numbers are the pretty much the same as with the CAT5 cable only the Line Attenuation is reading 1 db more but I have seen 39db through my internal extension wiring many times in the past. This concurs with what I found the last time I tried the CAT5 cable a week or three ago. Here are the numbers now:
System Up Time 00:02:29
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 49 56 0 44 53 00:02:02
LAN 10M/100M 301 249 0 834 263 00:02:25
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3616 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 7 db 21 db
I have to take note of what Rik said about how consistent the Upstream is.
For the moment the Noise Margin is doing the same i.e. varying between 6 db and 9db.
It is a different ADSL filter too come to think of it. The one in the Master Socket is one I had from Tiscali when I first signed up with them and the one I am using now is the one that came with the Netgear router. So that says to me that they must both be OK.
I still have a mains extension cable with the "Wall Wart" power supply for the router trailed across my hall that will have to go before tomorrow but I will leave it there all night and see what the figures are in the morning.
I would put money on the connection speed being just the same as since I found out why my main PC was making the ADSL line drop the line stays up OK. On my old 2 Mbps fixed rate package that I had from Tiscali until the middle of January my WAN stayed up for hundreds of hours. I am not so sure this was as true after the new PSU was fitted but I only became aware that the PC was dropping the line when it booted after I was moved to adaptive rate (Max) broadband.
I have been connected for 25 Mins again now through my extention wiring and just saw a fleeting 10 db Noise Margin but it is changing between 6 db and 9 db again now pretty consistently.
Hmm, identical speed on an extension would suggest it's not internal wiring. See how you go with the new filter. I'm running out of ideas. :-\
Hey somethings really up tonight! :eek4:
I thought things felt sluggish while posting this evening but I have been consumed with my testing.
Now take a look at this!
Despite reasonable connection speeds my thinkbroadband speed test results just now was worse than anything I had seen with Tiscali:
Date 20/02/08 21:24:06
Speed Down 127.59 Kbps ( 0.1 Mbps )
Speed Up 378.10 Kbps ( 0.4 Mbps )
Port 8095
Server 0.0.0.0
IP Address 91.***.**.**
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/results/id/12035425957619109863.html
The router stats are still saying this:
System Up Time 01:04:28
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 7049 7960 0 667 1087 01:04:01
LAN 10M/100M 13377 11332 0 1833 875 01:04:24
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3616 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 6 db 21 db
:hlp:
/me masked personal data
I am beginning to wonder if my Netgear is packing up. I have have been syncing at all sorts of different speed for days and tonight it says the connection speed is relatively OK, well what I have been used to in the main.
The question is can I believe it?
Here they are after coming up for 2 hours after the last power up:
System Up Time 01:53:48
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 8725 10270 0 433 763 01:53:21
LAN10M/100M 15611 13186 0 1202 560 01:53:44
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3616 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 9 db 21 db
I am now ultra suspicious of all the EMI the PC's PSU was kicking out until I swapped it on Sunday because I know my Netgear didn't like it so maybe this is the consequence. :rant2:
At the weekend I shall have to see if I can get the loan of one of the ones my brother offered me the other day.
Don't go by thinkbroadband.com speed test results. Your sync looks okay, and it's probably a profile issue. Can you do a BT speed test?
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 20, 2008, 22:57:05
it's probably a profile issue.
That sound encouraging.
From what my wife's told me later about her experience with Google Map loading very slowly early in the evening, before I did my CAT5 cable check, I think the throughput was down before I started my experiments. My 10 days are up now so maybe I have ended up with some dire IP Profile. Is this possible? ???
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 20, 2008, 22:57:05
Can you do a BT speed test?
Not at the moment I am sneaking on the forum at work! :blush:
Now having left the router on overnight the uptime was over ten hours and the router stats were just the same as the evening before:
System Up Time 10:23:02
Status RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 11763 16555 0 98 186 10:22:35
LAN 10M/100M 21655 18282 0 300 132 10:22:58
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3616 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 9 db 21 db
So to remove the trailing lead trip hazard from across my hall I switched the router off at the mains switch in the hall, moved the cable back into my computer desk alcove and plugged it in again and switched the router on. This was done with everything else in the alcove switched off: PC; monitor; printer; digital clock; DEC remote telephone base etc. Once the router had booted up and connected so that the ADSL LED was on steady I booted up the PC and took a look at the router stats. This is what I saw:
System Up Time 00:03:26
Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 140 167 0 125 630 00:02:54
LAN 10M/100M 405 356 0 1122 287 00:03:22
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4256 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 8 db 19 db
Eureka I thought but despite this really good connection speed (for me) the speed test throughput was still circa 128 kbps! :(
Do you think it might be my router on the blink or possibly something else like a wierd IP profile?
It looks like a classic profile issue, Les, we really need you to do a BT test (as will IDNet before they can do anything to help you).
Quote from: Rik on Feb 21, 2008, 09:25:24
Les, we really need you to do a BT test (as will IDNet before they can do anything to help you).
Hi Rik,
You were absolutely right on that score.
IDNet Support have been first class a reply complete with a line test virtually as soon as they opened my email.
Support want me to run the BT speed test with my direct connetion to the BT master Socket but I will try it first wired as I am through my extension wiring because like this I have a connection speed of 4256 kbps assuming that the line stays connected until I get home, which I am optimistic that it will.
Something odd happened at about 7:18 PM last evening as you can see below. This was round the time I was moving the connection from my internal extension wiring to my direct CAT5 cable connection. I thought I had been careful to turn the router off at the switch on the mains socket before I started but now with my advancing years I do wonder if I did do everything in the right order! :blush:
This is what Support tell me this morning:
A full line test shows no fault condition, what I have noticed over the past few days is the dynamic line management hasn't been able to settle at all.
Here is a record of the DLM on your line over the past few days;
Headline Rate Downstream LineRate Downstream LineRate Timestamp Maximum Stable Rate
135 2008-02-20T19:18:50 2848
135 2008-02-20T19:18:50 2848
135 2008-02-20T19:18:50 2848
3000 2008-02-19T18:24:51 2848
3000 2008-02-19T18:24:51 2848
3500 2008-02-17T17:59:55 2848
3500 2008-02-17T17:59:55 2848
2000 2008-02-16T09:42:50 2848
2000 2008-02-16T09:42:50 2848
2000 2008-02-16T09:42:50 2848
2500 2008-02-13T19:36:50 2848
2500 2008-02-13T19:36:50 2848
2500 2008-02-13T19:36:50 2848
3000 2008-01-28T19:12:08 2848
There was a low sync event on the line around 7pm yesterday as you can see, and because the external tests are showing no faults it's likely local interference which has caused this.
What I would suggest is connecting your equipment to the test port of the master socket and running a BT speedtest to see if the downstream line rate shows any improvement. If it does, I would suggest checking/changing the equipment and or wiring.
Hope this helps
It fits with what we're seeing, Les, you've got a yo yo of a profile there. :(
I have just sent this reply to IDNet support: :)
Thanks for the exceptionally fast reply, certainly something I would not have had with my last ISP!
OK I have done a BT speed test at 5:04PM 21/2/8 and this is the result:
The Performance Tester is now testing Broadband connection. Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 135 k
Please do not move away from this page and do not start any other download activity on your computer.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 135 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 4256 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 107 kbps
If you wish to discuss these results please contact your ISP.
If you are experiencing problems with specific applications, servers or websites please contact your ISP for assistance.
Your test has completed please close this window to exit the performance tester.
I think I know what caused the low syncs. I had problems with EMI for the PSU in my PC and the guys on the forum help me pinpoint the problem and I having changed the PSU the stability of my ADSL line had improved. Having temporarily repositioned my router with things working relatively well I decided to tidy things up a bit!! In the process I plugged the Netgear "Wall wart" power supply uniy into a multibock with a number of the "Wall Warts" in it already. A subsequent transistor radio test reveals that at least the one for the remote base units the one for my "DEC" telephone emits a load of EMI too! I know already that my Netgear router does not like EMI so I am pretty sure it was with it plugged into this multiblock that I have these dire connection speed. When I realised what had happened I moved it away as far as I could on another extension cable and can sync, as you will see in the BT test results above, at 4256 kbps. I guess my IP Profile is locked down now at this very low level for some number of days until BT decide I have suffered enough!
Maybe things don't look quite so bleak for my Netgear router after all.
Looks good, Les, keep us posted
It's certainly looking better, Les. Let's hope it stays that way.
Your profile is 135k, so unless IDNet get it manually reset, things are going to be mightily slow for the next few days until it resets! :)
Seeing it is quite a large jump on the sync, it should hopefully increase over the next day or two. The bigger the jump, the quicker it is.
It's worth mentioning that BT wouldn't let IDNet request a reset until their normal processes had completed.
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 21, 2008, 18:58:19
things are going to be mightily slow :)
Hi Sebby,
Tell me about it! :eek4:
Here's what the Netgear stats are saying a minute or so ago:
System Up Time 12:09:09
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 4710 10060 0 26 90 12:08:37
LAN 10M/100M 10757 8501 0 142 42 12:09:05
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4256 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 4 db 19 db
The downstream noise margins down but I guess that's an evening thing from what you were saying.
My suspicion is that if I were to try and re-connect now the Connection Speed would be lower so I am leaving well alone tonight. With :fingers: that my Netgrear router is OK. :getwell:
You're right, Les, a re-boot now would almost certainly see a reduction in sync speed, and multiple re-syncs will just cause the profile to stay lower longer.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 21, 2008, 19:20:42
You're right, Les, a re-boot now would almost certainly see a reduction in sync speed, and multiple re-syncs will just cause the profile to stay lower longer.
Hi Rik, Thank for the confirmation of my suspicion.
I can wait a couple more days, hey I'm ex-Tiscali, the likes of me are at home with dire peak time speeds and bouyed up by what Lance said it may be quicker!
Then I have to try again the routers sat on a box right next to my feet and it can't stay there indefinitely! :no:
It'll help keep your feet warm, Les. :) When you disconnect, pull the mains plug and let the voltage die away. This sends a signal to the exchange so that it doesn't see the disconnection as instability.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 21, 2008, 19:18:47
The downstream noise margins down but I guess that's an evening thing from what you were saying.
My suspicion is that if I were to try and re-connect now the Connection Speed would be lower so I am leaving well alone tonight. With :fingers: that my Netgrear router is OK. :getwell:
Yes, but 4dB at night on a Netgear is pretty decent, and shouldn't cause you any problems.
You could re-sync now, which would cause your sync to drop slightly, though would give you a higher margin. But, I'd say don't bother as hopefully things will stay stable as they are. :)
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 21, 2008, 19:42:44
I'd say don't bother as hopefully things will stay stable as they are. :)
I took the advice and here I am still stuck with an IP Profile of 135 kbps but the time is slowly but surely clocking up with a stable connection! :)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Hopefully you will see an increase soon!
The most important thing is stability, which is looks like you've finally got! The profile will clear in a couple of days, honest. :)
Quote from: LesD on Feb 17, 2008, 14:38:37
Now is the new PSU faulty?
Faulty probablly isn't the right word for it. It is almost certainly not compliant with the EMC directive though.
Buying cheap PSUs just isn't worth it IMO, they will almost certainly be noisy (probablly noiser than the EMC directive permits, at best borderline), they are unlikely to be reliable and when PSUs fail they sometimes take other far more valuable components with them.
I agree with you there, a PSU can fry a lot of expensive kit when it decides to give out. :(
Quote from: Lance on Feb 22, 2008, 23:04:25
Hopefully you will see an increase soon!
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 22, 2008, 23:59:11
The most important thing is stability, which is looks like you've finally got! The profile will clear in a couple of days, honest. :)
Hi Guys,
No time off for good behaviour so. :(
BT still have me in jail - Test at 8:50 AM 23/2/8
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 135 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 4256 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 91 kbps
Quote from: plugwash on Feb 23, 2008, 03:35:45
Faulty probablly isn't the right word for it. It is almost certainly not compliant with the EMC directive though.
Buying cheap PSUs just isn't worth it IMO, they will almost certainly be noisy (probablly noiser than the EMC directive permits, at best borderline), they are unlikely to be reliable and when PSUs fail they sometimes take other far more valuable components with them.
Hi Pugwash,
I know you are right but I didn't buy the cheapest one available but apparently not expensive enough!
This was the one I bought:
http://www.microdirect.co.uk/(12394)650W-Silent-ATX-PSU-SATA-cable-12cm-fan-24-pin.aspx
The make I received was Win Power. Having already been told that I would be liable to pay for postage and the testing MicroDirect do if their tests deemed that the PSU was in working order, which my bet is it would as it does power a PC, the final thing MicroDirect said was this:
"Due to the amount of varied components, available today Micro Direct is unfortunately unable to guarantee compatibility between items sold. It is customer's responsibility to ensure compatibility of any goods offered for sale by us both with the existing components within your system and with any other goods offered for sale by us".
I had an RMA from them by this time but have decided not to bother.
I work in a laboratory complex, one which is UKAS accredited for EMC testing and the guys there told me the particular Directive to quote to MicroDirect but that was just like water off a duck's back. My colleagues reckon they get round the letter of the law of these Directives because as such the PSU is a component in a bigger system and it is the whole system that is subject to the Directive. Well since I built this PC up from various bits I bought does that make me the manufacturer and hence liable under the Directives for the EMC it generates. I know I suffer from verbal diarrhoea so I had spared the forum from this debarkle until just now. :)
Since you have me on the subject what PSU should I buy? ???
I saw a Trust one that was more expensive if this is indeed an indicator and asked Trust how much EMI/RFI it generated and this was the second answer I received
Dear Customer,
This data is not available to us.
Kind regards,
XXXX YYYY
Trust Customer Care
Ths first one re-iterated the aucoustic noise levels that were in the specification that I had already seen.
One PSU that is an arm and a leg more expensive is an Enermax one with good details here that do address EMI:
http://www.afterhours.co.uk/enermax-liberty-500w-psu-p-1465.html?utm_campaign=froogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=froogle
(Amazon do it too but the spec. they give is less detailed)
I have also considered filters. You can get filtered Multi-blocks, switched filters from RS, who do show the circuits but they look asymmetric so do they only work efficiently for noise in one direction? As an electrical engineer I should know but at my age filter design is way back in my recollectoins in the very bowells of my memory so with all the young fresh minds out there, what should I do, I say what should I do? ???
So what's the concensus of opinion on what I should do next?
Whoops! How do you delete a post made in error? :blush:
Well if you can always turn a blemish into a feature so in an effort to redeem my first erroneous post I will ask a question. Will a router reboot/ADSL line reconnection be necessary when BT finally let me out of jail and give be a better IP Profile? I don't think it will but whilst sat here waiting there is plenty of time to ask! :)
Quote from: LesD on Feb 23, 2008, 08:56:43
No time off for good behaviour so. :(
BT still have me in jail - Test at 8:50 AM 23/2/8
Given the recent history of the line, I suspect it may take the full five days for the profile to reset. :(
Quote from: LesD on Feb 23, 2008, 09:32:20
Whoops! How do you delete a post made in error? :blush:
Ask a staff member...
QuoteWell if you can always turn a blemish into a feature so in an effort to redeem my first erroneous post I will ask a question. Will a router reboot/ADSL line reconnection be necessary when BT finally let me out of jail and give be a better IP Profile? I don't think it will but whilst sat here waiting there is plenty of time to ask! :)
No, the profile lifts without a re-sync being necessary.
Quote from: LesD on Feb 23, 2008, 09:31:20
So what's the concensus of opinion on what I should do next?
Can you get the PSU tested in your lab? If so, contact Trading Standards with the result, I'm sure they'd be interested in ensuring the relevant directives were met.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 23, 2008, 10:46:43
Can you get the PSU tested in your lab?
Hi Rik,
Thanks for all the latest answers. Regarding the bit I have quoted above, "a packet of fags job" :whistle: from days gone by. This possibility is on the cards but it's the "component versus the system" concept that may make going to these lengths not worth the candle. :)
There would be some satisfaction though if a recall of all suspect units could be enforced! :evil:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards,
Les.
P.S. Hey 5 days that's Monday! :eek4: I missed that first time round!
Here I am looking for remission for good behaviour not extra time to serve!
Quote from: LesD on Feb 23, 2008, 11:21:24
There would be some satisfaction though if a recall of all suspect units could be enforced! :evil:
That was my thinking. :)
QuoteP.S. Hey 5 days that's Monday! :eek4: I missed that first time round!
Here I am looking for remission for good behaviour not extra time to serve!
I suspect that, because the software has 'seen' so much instability, it will wait a bit longer to reset the profile. OTOH, you could get lucky today.
Ah what a relief out of Tisacli mode again! :happy:
BT let me out of jail tonight and I have now got my best ever IP Profile:
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 3904 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3201 kbps
So with the loan of one router from a guy at work on Friday and another one today from my brother as it turns out my own, despite my pessimism, is OK after all. :thumb:
Now I have just got to tidy things up a bit...... ;D
It appears that I had a re-connect round 7 PM this evening while I was out. This must have been after about 60 hours at 4256 kbps and maybe round the time my IP Profile went up again. I guess if I don't get the sync back up over 4000 kbps my IP Profile will settle back to 3000 kbps and limit my throughput to about 2800 kbps. No big deal in reality as anything over 2000 kbps give me a satisfactory surfing experience.
System Up Time 62:37:36
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 6850 12330 0 79 1477 02:39:13
LAN 10M/100M 74927 60910 0 238 60 62:37:32
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3904 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 5 db 20 db
No thoughts on how to pick a low EMI/RFI PSU? :choc:
I've always found the Tagan brand very low noise, Les. Scan stock them.
Hi Rik,
Thanks for the pointer to Tagan. I have done some Googling for them and they do look the business! :thumb:
I can't recommend them highly enough, Les, they simply do the job with no downside - bit like IDNet really. :)
Quote from: LesD on Feb 23, 2008, 21:29:54
Ah what a relief out of Tisacli mode again! :happy:
BT let me out of jail tonight and I have now got my best ever IP Profile:
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 3904 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3201 kbps
So with the loan of one router from a guy at work on Friday and another one today from my brother as it turns out my own, despite my pessimism, is OK after all. :thumb:
:congrats:
It must feel great to have stability and the correct profile. Hopefully now you can enjoy IDNet. :)
Edit: smiley markup sorted
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 23, 2008, 22:44:51
:congratulations:
It must feel great to have stability and the correct profile. Hopefully now you can enjoy IDNet. :)
Hi Sebby,
It certainly does! :)
My thanks to your good self and Rik for sticking with me through my trials and tribulations. :thnks:
We like trials, Les - just wait till you hear the sentences we hand out. ;)
Glad BT have let you out at last, Les!
Quote from: LesD on Feb 23, 2008, 22:54:07
Hi Sebby,
It certainly does! :)
My thanks to your good self and Rik for sticking with me through my trials and tribulations. :thnks:
Pleasure. That's what we're here for. :)
Guys,
You're great. :beer1:
I managed to get my Netgear Router back on its wall mounting this evening to kick-start the tidy up process again and so far so good:
thinkbroadband - 24/02/08 19:38 3246.36 Kbps 378.23 Kbps Netgear DG834
System Up Time 02:10:43
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4064 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 40 db 13 db
Noise Margin 6 db 21 db
I reckon this is looking about as good as I am going to get. :thumb:
(I am still using my existing telephone extension wiring).
Keeping the connection speed above 4000 kbps is the challenge but I am chipping away at it. When I had 4256 kbps I saw the Noise Margin round 0 db and 1 db at about 10 PM one evening so this number is still quite variable and I am looking into mains RFI filters very seriously.
I have made up my mind to buy a new PSU, a Tagan one would you know! ;)
The best specification I have found for it is here:
http://www.fgsservices.co.uk/INU_Products/INU_ProdDetailsL1.ASP?ref=N4402054
but the best price I could find was on Amazon so I have ordered one from them this evening.
Now if any one fancies an acoustically quiet but electrically noisy 650W PSU keep an eye on eBay I might get round to offering it for sale to the unsuspecting just like MicroDirect do! :no:
It really does look like the culprit was that PSU. I'm really glad that we've managed to help you get to the bottom of it and you've now got a pretty stable connection. Enjoy. :)
You'll not regret the Tagan, Les. :fingers: ;D
Quote from: Rik on Feb 25, 2008, 09:38:00
You'll not regret the Tagan, Les. :fingers: ;D
Well Rik what to say?
The Tagan arrived today and what a piece of engineering it is - beautiful! :bow:
I could even see the RFI filter behind the power socket through the rear grill with a bit of a snoop.
Screened mains lead complete with a ferrite bead, screened internal leads and a man sized earth/ground wire and ring terminal. Whisper quiet.... I could go on and on but you know all this already.
Many :thnks: for the pointer to Tagan. Have a couple of Karma's from me :karmic: :karmic:
Oh yes the PC does boot up without dropping out the ADSL line too! :)
Result. :thumb:
That's great, Les, it's always a relief when someone approves of a recommendation. :)
Hi Folks,
On Thursday evening my wife was out for an hour or two so I bit the bullet and run in my length of CAT5 cable with its 4 twisted pairs, of which of course, only one is necessary for the ADSL. That evening I managed the run from the location of the router up to and under the bathroom floor to the point immediately above the Master Socket in my hall. First thing Friday morning (7 AM) I ordered a filtered master faceplate from ADSL Nation and hey it arrived this morning (Saturday) so this afternoon I pulled the CAT5 cable down through the "egg-box" wall in my hall to the master socket and pulled another independent length back up the other way for the telephone extensions to replace, at least that length that was not originally twisted pairs. With the cables run in I fitted the new faceplate and remade the telephone extension connections under the bathroom floor.
Hey presto it is all working again and my first connection speed was 4676 kbps but as the evening wore on the noise margin worsened. (This is looking ever more certain to be outside the limits of my control) As a result the connection dropped and re-connected at 3872 kbps with noise margins holding their own currently at 6 db and its after 9 PM now. :thumb:
System Up Time 03:23:09
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 12953 21770 0 116 2004 03:22:42
LAN 10M/100M 25144 16942 0 2189 187 03:23:05
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3872 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 39 db 13 db
Noise Margin 6 db 27 db
I have managed a couple of db's improvement in the Line Attenuation down from 41 db to 39 db most likely due to the elimination of joints in terminal block and the separate ADSL filter plugs and sockets. I did a BT speed test about half an hour ago with this result:
Test at 8:29 PM 15/3/8
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM) 3872 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3152 kbps :)
So I am not doing too badly especially at this time on a Saturday evening.
Having the requirement to re-connect all my bell wires with the ADSL filtering now being at the Master Socket and faced with the varying colour schemes that my telephone extension wiring still has I made the decision that the wires I had removed from terminals 3 & 4 in earlier experiments were both going back with them both on 3 and this does seem to be OK. Terminal 4 is stated to be unused so my assumption was that it was floating and this does appear to be the case. So far I have only done the extension sockets that are still in use. With these modern DEC phones I have three that are still live but are no-longer used.
From my earlier experiments I was not expecting massive improvements but I knew I had seen the lower line attenuation when I was doing them so I have that as a permanent feature now. What I would like is to be able to maintain an IP profile of 3500 kbps but it is proving a challenge!
For the record the ADSL Nation faceplate did come with both self-tapping and the machine screws I happened to need at no extra cost. (£13.50 all in including p&p, which beats the Clarity price hands down) ;)
looking good Les :fingers:
:welc: Hi Les,Im an ex Tiscali man too,the waters good here nice and warm,instead of forever out in the cold at tiscali.dont fret they will sort things out,or put it this way I cant but I know dozens which can,and will. :karma:
Everything's looking good, Les. :)
Hi Les
Looking at your stats, I just wonder whether the final step for you should be to get a 2-Wire 2700 router. If my experience is anything to go by, you'd probably end up with a nice, stable, 4000 profile, maybe 4500.
You have a point, Rik. We've certainly seen several cases where 2Wires (or just anything that doesn't have an AR7 chipset) improves things a little bit more (or, in some cases, a lot more!).
Quote from: Rik on Mar 16, 2008, 09:08:15
Looking at your stats, I just wonder whether the final step for you should be to get a 2-Wire 2700 router.
I was ahead of you having read what you have said on other threads and have just missed out on one on eBay this evening but more are coming up. Do you know anything about the AT&T ones an American seller offers that he claims are BT compatible. One thing that isn't is the pin arrangement on the power supply.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-AT-T-2Wire-2700-2700hg-G-Wireless-DSL-Router-Modem_W0QQitemZ380006555053QQihZ025QQcategoryZ3702QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m122
Despite the activity I have engaged in since Thursday evening, the results have not been spectacular. I watched a connection speed from mid-afternoon of 4640 kbps with noise margins between 8 and 10 db deteriorate to 0 db and drop the line as darkness fell. The re-connection is currently at 3712 kbps with a noise margin of 10 db but a growing history of previous experience tells me that this margin will drop again as the evening wears on. Ah I have just seen an 8 db followed by a 6 db and back to 7 db but the trend is definitely downwards. It must be those pesky street lights that I read about! :)
P.S. when you get sick of my train just say and I will remove it, :getout:
I'd be wary, Les, he doesn't specifically say it's UK compatible that I could see, and doesn't list a UK ISP either.
It does sound like you are suffering from classic 'darkness' noise. I know the feeling, I'm at 7db from my target 9db right now.
The train is fine, btw. :)
Quote from: Rik on Mar 16, 2008, 19:52:45
I'd be wary, Les, he doesn't specifically say it's UK compatible that I could see, and doesn't list a UK ISP either.
Hi Rik,
Thanks for the pointer but about half way down the auction page he says this:
Works with the following ISP and most of the DSL ISP
and BT is in the list but are BT a provider over the pond? I simply don't know. As there appear to be any number coming up on eBay I think I shall bide my time. It's not that I am unhappy with what I have got. If for a moment I was a quick reflection on recent Tiscali times would soon fix that. It is that technical quest that if there is something in my scope to do to improve things then I want to do it. More RFI filtering is on the to do list but I cannot do all the street lights between me and the exchange! :ukflag:
This is a new one in the UK. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290213716017&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019
Quote from: Glenn on Mar 16, 2008, 20:05:16
This is a new one in the UK.
Thanks Glen,
I have just put it in my Watch List. :thumb:
Quote from: LesD on Mar 16, 2008, 20:02:23
I cannot do all the street lights between me and the exchange! :ukflag:
You could try, Les. :)
The power supply may be OK, but being the cautious type, I'd want a guarantee of that - too much hassle chasing someone across the pond.
Quote from: Rik on Mar 16, 2008, 20:29:42
The power supply may be OK, but being the cautious type, I'd want a guarantee of that - too much hassle chasing someone across the pond.
Yes I am with you on that one. I asked the seller a question about the PSU last week and have had no reply so unless I hear of someone who has tried this route for a router I shall not be going there myself.
BTW I was a wee bit pessimistic about the noise level dropping drastically here it is at 9:15 PM and I still have this from the Netgear Stats:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3712 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 39 db 13 db
Noise Margin 6 db 22 db
but the noise margin is fluctuating in what I hear is Netgear fashion! :)
How is your margin bearing up?
The stats are looking fine, Les, and pretty good for this time. A bit of fluctuation is normal, but if it's going from say 6 to 1 dB constantly, then that's not so good.
A new router might give you a bit more sync rate, but if you find things are stable now, I wouldn't necessarily bother.
Quote from: Sebby on Mar 16, 2008, 21:27:09
The stats are looking fine, Les, and pretty good for this time. A bit of fluctuation is normal, but if it's going from say 6 to 1 dB constantly, then that's not so good.
The fluctuation has been 6 db and above at this sync speed this evening, which is an improvement on what I have seen during other evenings. (Currently 7 db) :)
At 3700 kbps I end up with an IP Profile of 3000 kbps, which I know is OK for throughput download speeds of circa 2.7/2.8 Mbps but the elusive (for me) IP Profile of 3500 kbps need a consistent connection speed of 4000+ kbps! This is the challenge but I think I am probably not going to meet it with any stability! :(
6dB and above in terms of fluctuation is fine; it's the other way that you want to watch.
The 2Wire 2700HG could improve your sync enough to get the 3500k profile, and it's a stable old thing, so it might be something you want to think about. But if you're happy with your current speeds and things are stable (which they seem to be) then you might just want to leave things as they are. :)
Quote from: Sebby on Mar 16, 2008, 21:42:10
The 2Wire 2700HG could improve your sync enough to get the 3500k profile, and it's a stable old thing
If I got a 2wire 2700 and achieved an IP Profile of 3500 or even 4000 kbps perhaps the challenge would become 4500! :eek4:
Maybe I should be satisfied with what I have got. :but:
OCD, the tweaker's disease. :)