I'm having some trouble of late, whereby IDNet are getting my target SNRM reset to 6dB, then I have a single resync in say 2 days and my target SNRM shoots back up to 15dB. I don't think this is to do with the 2Wire itself, but it's training history is bizarre.
I go to http://192.168.1.254/tech then look at DSL Diagnostics. What's strange is that the times and dates of the retrains are wrong. The last retrain always shows as the current time and date, depending on when I log in. This is making it difficult to see what's going on (i.e. when my router retrained).
If you look at the attached picture of the training history, you'll see that the first train was on January 10, which is incorrect. In fact, January 9 was the first time my router retrained and sync'd at 15dB, so I'd actually unplugged the router and plugged it back in to see if this cured the issue (which it didn't) hence no prior history.
The next one, showing as January 12, is when IDNet requested that my target SNRM was dropped to 6dB. This in fact took place on January 10, not January 12.
The last resync occurred last night at some point, but I don't know when as it always gives the time and date as when I logged into that page on the router!
The whole thing with the SNRM dropping following a single resync is beyond me, but it would be much easier if I could see precisely when it's occurring.
Thank you in advance. :)
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The second, or last, figure always show when I access the page, Sebby, while the earlier ones seem to indicate re-trains since re-boot. I don't suppose the date in the router is wrong (hear the sounds of straws being clutched?).
The time and date is definitely correct, Rik. It's the first thing I checked (I should have mentioned that!). :)
I love this router, but the one thing I found strange is it's reporting, not just of the training history.
What's the logic in it giving a fictitious time/date? Surely it must know the actual time/date when it retrained? ???
Being the technical genius that you are, Rik, what do you think about this ridiculous problem with the targeting SNRM reverting back to 15dB following a single resync? ;)
It sounds like the DLM software has still got the line tagged as unstable - but that's just an opinion. IDNet will be able to find out for sure.
Okay, thanks, Rik.
I can't understand why a resync is occurring in the first case, either. My SNRM is always above 6dB, and the noise problem that I had a little while ago has definitely disappeared. I'm wondering if this is being caused by something at BT's end as well.
Anyway, like you say, IDNet should be able to find out more.
As always, thanks for your help, Rik. :)
I have found that my 2700 will re-sync at a 5db margin, Sebby, so perhaps yours is doing something similar? What was the margin showing in the second entry of the second line?
I'm certain that's not the case with mine, Rik, as when I was first reset back to 6dB, I saw it go as low as 4dB (because BT had reset it in the day, and it obviously degraded come night). After that, I manually resync'd at night so the worst it was ever getting was 6dB, and it was 7-8dB in the day.
To answer your question, mgn 1 is showing as 9.0 and mgn 2 as 7.0
The 7 is the figure at which it re-synched, to judge by what I've seen here. Perhaps BT were kicking the tyres again?
It seems too much of a coincidence. It's happened at around the same point (I think just short of 2 days sync) both times that my margin has been reset.
I had a resync at 5.31 this morning for no apparent reason. I know this from scouring the detailed log.
If you look at the pic you can see the time shown above the current time is the time it reset.
[attachment deleted by admin]
It certainly wasn't a margin drop in your case, Ted. It's a shame that the router (or any router) doesn't record a cause against the re-sync - it could save a lot of guesswork.
OOOOOOO that would be handy ;D
Previous to that pic the router held sync for over 20 days with a stable margin, around 12. Then early one morning it resynced and the margin recorded was 5. The router auto resynced straight away and did so at 12 ? ???
That's the same pattern I see, Ted - often with an increase in sync speed. Makes no sense. :-\
I use BT firmware and you use SBC so that can't have any bearing on it. To be honest its not a problem as i always seem to sync back to 7616, so no harm done ;D
You're right, I still sync higher than the Netgear ever did, and the margin is stable the rest of the time. It would be nice to know what happens, though... :)
Clip from the log at time of resync. Doesn't show much at all :'(
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Quote from: xild on Jan 13, 2008, 15:30:26
Clip from the log at time of resync. Doesn't show much at all :'(
No, the usual bald statement of fact - no use to man nor beast. :(
Quote from: Rik on Jan 13, 2008, 15:34:20
No, the usual bald statement of fact - no use to man nor beast. :(
No use to me either :hehe:
:lol:
Well, I was honest enough to include beast for me. ;)
I had a very comprehensive email from James today. BT had said that the DLM was increasing my target SNRM because of an excessive number of errors. Usually I wouldn't believe them (BT), but when I was with Entanet previously, I had throughput issues when my target margin was 6dB, and BT said it was high errors (although, surprisingly, the DLM didn't increase my margin then). I didn't realise that the DLM would increase your target SNRM due to a high number of errors when it's not causing instability, but there you go.
Thankfully (I suspect largely due to the technical ability and care employed by James) BT agreed to set my target SNRM at 9dB, which should hopefully put an end to this problem. I used to be on 9dB anyway, and in some ways I prefer it as it gives that bit more comfort.
I came home to find the 2Wire sync'd at 4.9Mb @ 8dB. I was happy because that's still enough sync for a 4000k profile (with a target SNRM of 6dB, I only had a profile of 4500k, so no great loss at all).
What's funny is that my SpeedTouch 585v6 struggled to get anywhere near 4.5Mb @ 9dB - and I often had to resync a number of times to try and get enough sync for a 4500k profile - so the 2Wire really shines. I rebooted so that I had a SNRM of 9dB at night, hence it should never go lower than this now, hopefully keeping those errors down. The 2Wire still got a plenty high enough sync for a 4000k profile (about 4.7Mb, IIRC).
Sounds like a result to me. :karmic:
Well I certainly hope so. At the moment I'm happy as can be, so let's hope the DLM do the dirty again. :laugh:
I also went to a 9db margin, Sebby, and it's given me a reasonably stable line, eg 2 re-syncs/month. I suspect interleaving will also be on (on your line, it is on mine), improving the error handling. The only time I'm really aware of the difference in speed is on a large download, but then I now make those without lost of grief, so it was a fair trade for me.
I believe interleaving was always on. To be honest, I doubt I'll notice any difference. I'm very happy with a 4000k profile if my line is stable. A lot of people try and squeeze everything out of their line at the cost of stability. IMHO, stability is almost as important as speed. :)
That was certainly my decision, Sebby. I've got things to the point where I have reasonable speed and good stability. I'm also getting between 2.5 and 5x the speed that my neighbours achieve. ;)
Good result, Rik. :)
I know I've already said it and so have others, but IDNet are such a breath of fresh air to deal with. I can just see that effort went in to getting this sorted for me, and once again, I feel that IDNet is worth every penny. 8)
Now you know why we purr so much, Sebby. It's a good feeling. :)
I have never needed any support from IDNet, but Seb's little tale sure does give a nice warm glow of confidence.
Hopefully I won't need it again, but if I do, I'll feel certain that it's no big deal. :)
I've now been connected for one day and things seem fine. Tomorrow will be the true test as the last 2 times I have been booted off at some point before the 2 day mark.
My profile has caught up now to 4000k, which is nice. :)
I think i've worked out how to read the training history on the DSL Diagnostics page.
The time / dates appear to reflect the END of that particulat sync event and not the START of it.
That's why you always get the current time and date as the last entry when you log into that screen - the sync event is still live and has not yet ended.
Does this make sense ?
Mike
Yep, sure does. Reply #9 :dv:
Quote from: xild on Jan 17, 2008, 20:17:11
Yep, sure does. Reply #9 :dv:
Oppps - missed that one - sorry :laugh:
No Probs, these threads get a bit long sometimes ;D
I'm pleased to report that I've now been sync'd for over 3 days at 4640k with a SNRM of no lower than 9dB at all times.
Errors seem reasonable and throughput is excellent (the maximum I can get, in fact, on a 4000k profile).
:)
Great stuff! :)
I've had my first resync in about 12 days. However, it doesn't look like a resync as such; it looks like the router rebooted (I'm sure there wasn't a power cut as all other appliances look fine). I say this because there was only one entry in the training history.
It doesn't matter in the slightest, but I just thought it was a little strange. Has anyone else experienced their 2700 reboot randomly?
I did, also at 12 days, Sebby. Ted thought it might be triggered by the log becoming full, the other possibility was that the modem detected it could re-sync at a higher speed (+400k).
Just got back from Tesco's to find we had a power cut at 2.30pm, lost all my stats for the last 17 days, sod! Still syncing at 7616 and 12db.
Sebby i can't remember which firmware version you have, check to see if you had an auto upgrade from BT. This causes a full reboot to establish the new firmware.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 27, 2008, 15:12:39
I did, also at 12 days, Sebby. Ted thought it might be triggered by the log becoming full, the other possibility was that the modem detected it could re-sync at a higher speed (+400k).
Okay, so it's not just me. The great thing about this router is that even if there's a resync, you're almost guaranteed the same or higher sync as prior to it, unlike my SpeedTouch, which fluctuated widely.
Quote from: xild on Jan 27, 2008, 15:24:24
Sebby i can't remember which firmware version you have, check to see if you had an auto upgrade from BT. This causes a full reboot to establish the new firmware.
I have the SBC firmware, so it's not that. :)
I'm on SBC too - perhaps it just has a hissy fit every 12 days? :)
It certainly sounds that way! I'll see if it happens again. It's a little annoying as otherwise this router is perfect. :)
I can live with it, providing the re-sync doesn't mess with the profile, and so far it's always been good in that respect.
I'm getting close to that magic number again, so it's going to be interesting to see if the router reboots this time.
Of course, you stand a good chance of BT's spanner arriving in the works anytime soon...
Are you talking about the DSLAM maintenance, Rik?
Indeed. If it hasn't happened yet, it must be getting closer to us.
I have passed the 12 day mark!
:congrats: ;D
:laugh:
I did clear the event log a few times during these 12 days, so it could well be that.
I'm tending to clear it most days now, shame there isn't the facility to email it and clear the log automatically.
How do you get to the stats that show any sync drops on these?
http://192.168.1.254/xslt?PAGE=J42
which after you enter the password, should take you to:
http://192.168.1.254/xslt
or
http://192.168.1.254/xslt?PAGE=J34&THISPAGE=J17&NEXTPAGE=J34
That doesn't get me any further than a time-out, Rik, but by replacing the IP with 'gateway.2wire.net', I get to the diagnostics page, which means nothing to me!
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Downstream Rate Cap: 8128 kbps
Downstream Atten. at 300kHz: 31.3 dB
Uncancelled Echo: -18.5 dB Ok
VCXO Frequency Offset: -7.2 ppm Ok
Final Rx Gain: 20.2 dB Ok
Impulse Noise Comp. Tones: 0 Ok
Excessive Impulse Noise: 0 Ok
Impulse noise protection: 1.79
Delay of latency path: 8.00 ms
Can't really post the Training History due to the horizontal format.
That training history is the bit you want, Simon. The first line should be when it last retrained, the second line the current stats.
Umm...
Time Line Rate Max1 Max2 Max3 Mgn1 Mgn2 Attn Pwr CRCs FECs INP DLY
2008/02/10 10:59:17 GMT 1 4032 4044 4928 4928 15.0 18.0 34.7 19.7 767 16228 1.79 8.00
Famous last words...
It looks like my router rebooted at some point during the night. It doesn't matter as it always re-syncs high enough to give me the same profile, but it's just strange that this seems to happen every 12 days... ::)
Quote from: Simon on Feb 10, 2008, 11:02:11
Umm...
Time Line Rate Max1 Max2 Max3 Mgn1 Mgn2 Attn Pwr CRCs FECs INP DLY
2008/02/10 10:59:17 GMT 1 4032 4044 4928 4928 15.0 18.0 34.7 19.7 767 16228 1.79 8.00
That margin is very high. Looks like you've not retrained.
So, what do I do?
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 10, 2008, 11:02:59
It looks like my router rebooted at some point during the night. It doesn't matter as it always re-syncs high enough to give me the same profile, but it's just strange that this seems to happen every 12 days... ::)
I get the same, Sebby. It seems to point the finger at the DSLAM, at least to me. For there to be a random burst of noise affecting both of us at 12 day intervals is stretching credibility. :)
I think it's the router, Rik. Something is happening at 12 days that is making it reboot (not re-sync, as there is only a single entry in the training history). With my old SpeedTouch, I was able to stay sync'd for more than 12 days.
Like I say, it's no big deal, but I'd love to find the cause.
Quote from: Simon on Feb 10, 2008, 11:05:38
So, what do I do?
Well, it looks to me as if you synched during the evening, with a 15db target, then the margin rises during the day (quite normal, mine is 11 right now, from a target of 9). The only reason your margin would have gone to 15 is due to instability, so it's a matter of trying to maintain sync for 14 days, after which the target should be lowered.
I feel that you've probably got an extra 1500k in your line if you can get it stable.
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 10, 2008, 11:07:11
Like I say, it's no big deal, but I'd love to find the cause.
My Netgear did exactly the same, which is why I felt it was external. Perhaps it's a Linux bug?
Quote from: Rik on Feb 10, 2008, 11:08:56
Well, it looks to me as if you synched during the evening, with a 15db target, then the margin rises during the day (quite normal, mine is 11 right now, from a target of 9). The only reason your margin would have gone to 15 is due to instability, so it's a matter of trying to maintain sync for 14 days, after which the target should be lowered.
I thought Simon's target SNRM was always 15dB, Rik. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. :laugh:
Quote from: Rik on Feb 10, 2008, 11:09:48
My Netgear did exactly the same, which is why I felt it was external. Perhaps it's a Linux bug?
Hmm, certainly possible.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 10, 2008, 11:08:56
Well, it looks to me as if you synched during the evening, with a 15db target, then the margin rises during the day (quite normal, mine is 11 right now, from a target of 9). The only reason your margin would have gone to 15 is due to instability, so it's a matter of trying to maintain sync for 14 days, after which the target should be lowered.
I feel that you've probably got an extra 1500k in your line if you can get it stable.
Isn't it going to be difficult to maintain sync for 14 days, if the thing does what yours does, and reboots after 12 days, or doesn't that matter?
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 10, 2008, 11:25:56
I thought Simon's target SNRM was always 15dB, Rik. Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else. :laugh:
I confess, after a while, I get quite confused about who has what issue, Sebby. I'm going to have to start keeping notes.
Quote from: Simon on Feb 10, 2008, 11:27:17
Isn't it going to be difficult to maintain sync for 14 days, if the thing does what yours does, and reboots after 12 days, or doesn't that matter?
It doesn't seem to affect others, though, Simon - or, at least, no-one else had mentioned it.
Quote from: Simon on Feb 10, 2008, 11:27:17
Isn't it going to be difficult to maintain sync for 14 days, if the thing does what yours does, and reboots after 12 days, or doesn't that matter?
My thoughts exactly, Simon. It may be worth seeing if IDNet can get it reset. If you tell them your story (i.e. you had a modem and now have a router) it may help persuade BT.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 10, 2008, 11:32:19
I confess, after a while, I get quite confused about who has what issue, Sebby. I'm going to have to start keeping notes.
It wouldn't be such a bad idea! :D
... starts reading the small print of the Data Protection Act... (http://bestsmileys.com/reading/4.gif)
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 10, 2008, 11:34:02
My thoughts exactly, Simon. It may be worth seeing if IDNet can get it reset. If you tell them your story (i.e. you had a modem and now have a router) it may help persuade BT.
I'll give it the 14 days and see what happens first, than I'll contact IDNet.
Anyone noticed that the reader in the smiley is Jewish?
Quote from: Rik on Feb 10, 2008, 11:49:51
Anyone noticed that the reader in the smiley is Jewish?
?????
Couldn't see his lower bits Rik.. ;D ;D
He's reading 'back to front' which implies right to left, which implies Jewish. Either that or I need to get my eyes tested. ;D
Are you sure, Rik? It looks like left to right to me!
Eye test for Rik it seems Seb.. ;D ;D
I have been typing through a migraine today, but I swear it's changed direction since I first posted. :)
Perhaps he has had a change of faith Rik.. ;D
A Damascus moment, you mean? Well, we've seen a few miracles in the forum this week... :)
:lol:
Quote from: Rik on Feb 10, 2008, 15:51:57
A Damascus moment, you mean? Well, we've seen a few miracles in the forum this week... :)
You be careful, I will send the Archbishop around to sort things.. ;D
He couldn't sort out a party at a manufacturer of fermented drinks. :)
Quote from: Rik on Feb 10, 2008, 12:20:43
He's reading 'back to front' which implies right to left, which implies Jewish. Either that or I need to get my eyes tested. ;D
You're right, Rik! If you look at it from his perspective, he's turning the pages from right to left. ;)
Just passed 41days without a re-sync on my 2700 ;D Don't know whether to reboot one morning to try and put my sync up higher. >:D It's on 7552 at the moment but has been higher. 2700HGV rules OK.
Interesting, Den. So it looks like the HGV doesn't suffer with this 12 day problem. But then I'm not sure it's all HGs that suffer with it anyway; it could just be mine and Rik's. :laugh:
Are your's and Rik's the older versions with the alternative firmware, Seb? Sorry, can't recall the name of it.
Ours are plain old 2Wire-badged units, and - AFAIK - were never branded, running SBC firmware.
Perhaps the 12 day reboot is just a thing with the SBC firmware? Mine is a newer, twin SSID model, so hopefully it will get through the 14 days.
It's difficult to say, Simon. If and when this one gives up, I may replace it with a 2700HGV. :)
I think it was last Tuesday I got mine, so only 9 days to go! ;D
Certainly you raise an interesting point about the SBC firmware, Simon. Perhaps I should get a second one to compare. Will you tell Sue or shall I? ;)
Quote from: Simon on Feb 10, 2008, 21:14:42
You're right, Rik! If you look at it from his perspective, he's turning the pages from right to left. ;)
That's what I first thought, and what I'm seeing again now, Simon. Maybe madness is setting in! :)
My 2Wire rebooted at about 6am this morning, so the 12 day thing is happening consistently. As always, no harm done.
What's unbelievable is that it's sync'd at 5024k; some 500k higher than usual! I'll be rebooting it tonight to maintain my solid 9dB SNRM at all times, plus it doesn't get me a 4500k profile anyway, but I just found it quite remarkable. I've never seen a sync that high @ 9dB!
It's weird, isn't it, Sebby, this 12 day thing. As I've said, my Netgear did the same, so I do wonder whether the DSLAM resets at intervals.
It could be, Rik, but it's just that I didn't happen on my old SpeedTouch.
Well, the chipsets are different in the 2700 and the Netgear, so it's not that. I hate puzzles. :)
This is true... :think:
Whats more puzzling is that other people quite happily keep sync for weeks and weeks, so it can't be all DSLAMs that do it.
Agreed, Lance, it has to be a particular model or a particular combination of things, or just pure coincidence...
I still think the 2Wire is to blame. But then you had it with you Netgear, Rik. I'm puzzled! :think:
It's my line, Sebby, it's mischievous. :)
I think that goes for all BT lines, Rik. :laugh:
:lol:
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 23, 2008, 18:24:21
I think that goes for all BT lines, Rik. :laugh:
With the odd exception.. :evilb: :out:
Ah shaddup. ;D
Hopefully my replacement 2700 will last long enough to reach the 15 days, then I can see if my SNRM has got better. It was up to 18 again yesterday. :(
18 suggests that your re-synched at night, Simon, then the figure went higher during the day, as the noise went down.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 23, 2008, 23:35:26
Ah shaddup. ;D
:tongue: :pullface: :duck:
;D
Quote from: Rik on Feb 23, 2008, 23:43:03
18 suggests that your re-synched at night, Simon, then the figure went higher during the day, as the noise went down.
So, higher, is actually a lower figure, yes?
No. :) If you have a target margin of 15, say, your router will negotiate the fastest connection it can manage for that margin. If it's done during the day, then your speed will be higher, but you'll see the margin drop below 15 at night. OTOH, if it's done at night, when noise is at its highest, then you'll get a slower sync speed, but the noise margin will rise during the day, when noise is lower.
I disagree with Rik, but it's because we are reading your post in different ways! You have to remember that the figure of 18 is the margin between a stable connection and the noise. Therefore, if the figure increases it means the actual noise has decreased. :)
That's what I was trying to say. :)
I don't agree or disagree with anyone, 'cos I don't know WTF you are talking about. ;D
Lets just keep things that way, In!
Quote from: Lance on Feb 24, 2008, 00:04:50
Lets just keep things that way, In!
:rofl2: :rofl2:
That had me laughing Lance...nice one.. :thumb:
We aim to please!
Quote from: Lance on Feb 23, 2008, 23:58:03
I disagree with Rik, but it's because we are reading your post in different ways! You have to remember that the figure of 18 is the margin between a stable connection and the noise. Therefore, if the figure increases it means the actual noise has decreased. :)
Right, but less noise is better isn't it? So how come we are saying if the figure increases, say from 15 to 18, the noise has decreased, but we are aiming for a figure of 9 or less? Surely, then, that means more noise!
It can be a strange one to understand and explain, but here goes... Your router will negotiate a rate so that the SNRM equals the target figure (in your case, Simon, 15dB). Come morning, the noise will have reduced (night is always noisy) so although you sync'd at a target of 15dB the night before, the reduced noise means this figure improves. Were you to re-sync again, your router would connect at a rate to meet the target SNRM; as there's less noise around, the sync will be higher. So, you'd have a SNRM of 15dB and a better sync. Come night, the figure would more than likely decline as you sync'd during a less noisy time.
Yes, less noise is better. The reason we are aiming for a lower margin is because the lower the margin the higher the speed. Therefore, the lower margin isn't caused by increased noise but actually increased speed and the router having to work harded to split out the noise from the data.
I'll have to look at this tomorrow. I'm too tired to take it in now, and still trying to get through today's posts!
It is a strange concept to grasp, but it will click, honest. :)
You ain't alone Simon, I cannot understand WTF they are going on about either.
Bless 'em.. :pat: :conf: :hehe: :dunno:
:rofl:
:rofl2: