IDNetters Forums

Following on from the other thread, this seems to offer a little more clarity:

https://everythingconnected.idnet.net/2022/09/27/the-uk-land-line-switch-off-what-you-need-to-know

Please continue discussions here. 

Received the email from IDNet today ... thanks for starting this new thread, Simon.

(Ha. Beaten to it.  :) Also got the email today.) It does come across as a touch optimistic (See previous thread.) The bit about new landline phones is interesting though.

As ever from the supplier side of the house it vastly underplays the concern in many rural parts of the UK about complete loss of service when there is a power cut.  We have 3 or 4 outages a year which on average last 10 to 12 hours.  We do not have a mobile signal but even if we did, the anecdotal evidence is that masts in rural locations do not have adequate power back up for that length of outage and go off-line as well leaving people with absolutely no method of contacting emergency services.  OfCOM and the suppliers are currently only mandating a back-up service lasting an hour for vulnerable customers which is clearly totally inadequate for people in our situation.

I see the article is showing "No comments found" at the bottom.  I can't see a way to make a comment - can anyone point me in the right direction, please?

Quote from article "Our recommendation at the moment (until 2024) for single line users would be to not panic about the switch off and move to a VoIP solution once FTTP/H is available in your area."

The article implies that the switch to VOIP depends on the installation of FTTP. Is this true? If so it will take a long time to cover rural areas.

Quote from: Postal on Oct 04, 2022, 13:12:09
As ever from the supplier side of the house it vastly underplays the concern in many rural parts of the UK about complete loss of service when there is a power cut.  We have 3 or 4 outages a year which on average last 10 to 12 hours.  We do not have a mobile signal but even if we did, the anecdotal evidence is that masts in rural locations do not have adequate power back up for that length of outage and go off-line as well leaving people with absolutely no method of contacting emergency services.  OfCOM and the suppliers are currently only mandating a back-up service lasting an hour for vulnerable customers which is clearly totally inadequate for people in our situation.

I guess if we have the ominously predicted blackouts this winter, that may bring some of these situations into stark focus.

Quote from: Postal on Oct 04, 2022, 13:12:09I see the article is showing "No comments found" at the bottom.  I can't see a way to make a comment - can anyone point me in the right direction, please?

As far as I can see you can't comment on a Newsletter.  Maybe visit their Facebook page?

I'm wondering if it would be possible to have IDNet VoIP without the DECT phone. I'd at least be able to provide a couple of hours of UPS cover for a simple ATA box, which would then plumb in to the existing extension wiring. (Just disconnect the incoming phone line pair at the master socket and use an old modem cable to plug into any extension socket. The master socket's existing ring capacitor would then feed the ring shunt wire.)

Failing that it would mean porting the number to SIPGate or similar.

Quote from: Simon on Oct 04, 2022, 14:29:05Maybe visit their Facebook page?

I take no willing part in the empire of that entitled, amoral, selfish and greedy Satan.

Quote from: Terryphi on Oct 04, 2022, 13:33:57
Quote from article "Our recommendation at the moment (until 2024) for single line users would be to not panic about the switch off and move to a VoIP solution once FTTP/H is available in your area."

The article implies that the switch to VOIP depends on the installation of FTTP. Is this true? If so it will take a long time to cover rural areas.

This I regret is untrue many rural areas have already been forced onto fibre and suffered in last year's bid storm, the Ceiriog Valley near to us is one of them. Lost power for days and regularly do so and NO mobile signal in much of it. We have a friend who in in the process of moving as a result as in an emergency they are totally isolated from contacting help with the fibre setup.

One thing that that could cause problems. Looking at IDNets new VOIP packages I notice that they are subject to a 24 month contract. What happens if my broadband package is a 1 month contract and I want to move to another provider? Could be complicated.
I am one of the unfortunate souls that keep getting switched to a Zen  gateway and have to reboot the router to get a reasonable connection. (IDNet say there is nothing they can do about it). Last week Open Reach were putting in FFTP cable in the village and I have one of the connection boxes on the pole outside my house. Being medically highly vulnerable I am wary of only having a mobile but I certainly don't want to be tied in to a 24 month contract.

Quote from: john7 on Oct 04, 2022, 16:14:02
This I regret is untrue many rural areas have already been forced onto fibre and suffered in last year's bid storm, the Ceiriog Valley near to us is one of them. Lost power for days and regularly do so and NO mobile signal in much of it. We have a friend who in in the process of moving as a result as in an emergency they are totally isolated from contacting help with the fibre setup.

Thanks john7 for your reply to my question.

Quote from: Terryphi on Oct 04, 2022, 13:33:57
Quote from article "Our recommendation at the moment (until 2024) for single line users would be to not panic about the switch off and move to a VoIP solution once FTTP/H is available in your area."

The article implies that the switch to VOIP depends on the installation of FTTP. Is this true? If so it will take a long time to cover rural areas.

I don't think that is true.  VOIP runs over any internet connection so you can be forced onto VOIP even if you are still on an FTTC line.  There are financial benefits to BT if they push FTTC users onto VOIP as they can then look to cease maintenance on all of the switching apparatus in the exchanges and even perhaps sell off the exchange properties.  It is expected that people who do not currently have an internet connection will be given a modem with a telephone socket and the line will be capped at something like 0.5MBPs so that it will handle voice but no meaningful internet connection.  By the end of 2025 the PSTN (Public Switched Telephone Network) will be turned off and everybody wanting a landline telephone service will be forced to use VOIP whether they are on FTTP or FTTC.

Quote from: Postal on Oct 04, 2022, 17:39:11
I don't think that is true.  VOIP runs over any internet connection...

So, in theory, could VoIP run on a tethered 4G / 5G internet connection from a mobile?  Just thinking if that might be an alternative, but then again, I guess it wouldn't be much use if you have no power as your VoIP phones wouldn't work anyway. 

Quote from: Simon on Oct 04, 2022, 18:00:42
So, in theory, could VoIP run on a tethered 4G / 5G internet connection from a mobile?  Just thinking if that might be an alternative, but then again, I guess it wouldn't be much use if you have no power as your VoIP phones wouldn't work anyway.

So if you've got a mobile signal strong enough to support a tethered connection, why bother with the tethering - why not just use the mobile to make the call?

Indeed.  Stupid question.  (https://www.pc-pals.com/smf/Smileys/Smileys/red-face.gif)

Quote from: Postal on Oct 04, 2022, 15:00:05
I take no willing part in the empire of that entitled, amoral, selfish and greedy Satan.

No, don't hold back on our account please! :)

;D

I do have a FB account but I use it for information only, and hardly ever for 'social' purposes.  It does tend to get you noticed when you post a complaint on a company Facebook or Twitter page!

Simon, regarding a facebook account   .....  I don't have one, mainly coz I don't want to display my name on t'internet - however, a bit like yourself, I would occasionally like to be able to contact organizations or companies for whatever reason (i suppose mainly to complain about something when all else has failed).

But how do you (or, indeed, can you) have a facebook account but remain anonymous? When I post the question online it always says you cant have an anonymous account but, surely, you must be able to have an account but stay nameless to the general public?

Incidentally (in connection with phones/VOIP etc rather than Facebook)  ...  I've mentioned elsewhere that, after 14 years with IDNet, I've been thinking about moving to another ISP and getting FTTP, which is now available in my area (I think I mentioned who it was but probably shouldn't mention it again) ... and regarding the landline phone aspect I would be able (with the new people) to pay an additional £1.20 on top of the £37 (for FTTP at 115mb) and have the use of my existing "landline" along with the same landline number that I have now and thereafter either pay for any calls I make at xx pence per minute OR make no calls, just use it for incoming and use my mobile for outgoing calls. To that end I've just changed from o2 PAYG to o2 Pay Monthly and now have unlimited calls and texts and 4GB of data for £6 a month so that covers my needs very comfortably. 

If I didn't want to use my mobile for calls and chose to use the new provider's line for both incoming and outgoing calls I am informed that I could use the router (a Technicolour) which they provide and could plug in my existing "old type" cordless DECT GAP compatible phone into the router (it has a built in ATA (an adaptor) and apparently it would/should work - and, of course I can use the 4 or 5 additional handsets trhat I currently have working off the one main base station (the bit that's plugged into the new router).

Obviously, instead of using my own, old cordless phones I could have a new VOIP DECT phone (cordless or not) which apparently offers all manner of facilities but which (a) costs quite a lot if you have 4 or 5 new extension handsets working from it ... and (b) needs to configured and also requires the user to go on a week's course at a local college in order to learn how to use all the aforementioned fancy facilities.

I might be repeating myself here and may have said much of the above before but now that IDNet have issued the guidance that we're all receiving it seemed vaguely pertinent to put it here. 

Quote from: Simon on Oct 04, 2022, 18:00:42
So, in theory, could VoIP run on a tethered 4G / 5G internet connection from a mobile?  Just thinking if that might be an alternative, but then again, I guess it wouldn't be much use if you have no power as your VoIP phones wouldn't work anyway. 

Apart from the obvious, the Carrier Grade NAT used by the mobile providers makes VoIP difficult, especially for incoming calls using SIP.

Quote from: stan on Oct 04, 2022, 22:10:30
To that end I've just changed from o2 PAYG to o2 Pay Monthly and now have unlimited calls and texts and 4GB of data for £6 a month so that covers my needs very comfortably. 

You'd probably be just as well served by one of the "bargain brand" virtual providers run by the mobile phone companies themselves. For example, O2 has Giffgaff and Three has Smarty.

Giffgaff would probably cost more than your deal with O2, though. Smarty is exactly the same as what you got.

Quote from: nowster on Oct 04, 2022, 22:56:41
You'd probably be just as well served by one of the "bargain brand" virtual providers run by the mobile phone companies themselves. For example, O2 has Giffgaff and Three has Smarty.

Giffgaff would probably cost more than your deal with O2, though. Smarty is exactly the same as what you got.

All received and thanks for those thoughts - but I'm duty bound to wonder if there would have been anything gained with either GiffGaff or Smarty.

I say that only because I did look at the alternatives but if one is dearer - and the other is much the same then I didn't see a particular drawback in using o2 (remembering I was already with o2 on PAYG and additionally I have a local o2 shop where I can go for face to face assistance if needed (and I buy my phones there and they painlessly swap the details over from the old to the new). I have to say despite the dreadful Trustpilot reviews I've been very pleased with the swap from o2 PAYG to o2 Pay Monthly SIM  ONLY - the three advisors I've spoken to during the transition have been excellent and the SIM arrived promptly and the online experience has been faultless ...
Having said all that I've never used GiffGaff so it could be the best thing since sliced bread - but - I have used Three (when their call centre was in Mumbai) and found their customer service advisors to be helpful (when they answered the phone) BUT very difficult to have a conversation with due to difficulty having free flowing conversations. Yes o2 have a call centre in South Africa but the conversation I had there was much easier than any I've had with Three. Maybe Three have improved on that?

We're slightly straying off course here but I've just moved from O2 to a SIM only Pay Monthly contract with Sky Mobile.  I'm paying them £7 per month for unlimited calls and texts, plus 3GB data, the same as I was paying O2 nearly £16 per month for.  The reason I switched was O2's appalling customer service.  I realise that I am still technically on O2, as Sky piggyback on their network, but at least I'm only paying half the price I was paying before.

With regards Facebook, Stan, there are lots of privacy settings where you can lock your profile down so that only people that you want to see you can see you.  That said, I'm sure people don't always use their full real names.  I don't have any personal details in my profile, and as far as I can recall, the only validation they require on registration is an email address, but it's been a while since I joined, so that may have changed.

Quote from: Terryphi on Oct 04, 2022, 13:33:57
Quote from article "Our recommendation at the moment (until 2024) for single line users would be to not panic about the switch off and move to a VoIP solution once FTTP/H is available in your area."

Ha! bloody Ha!
FTTP in our area - probably never at the current rate.
All this is total bollox when the simple fact is that when you're without power IT WON'T WORK!  :mad: :mad: :mad:
The PSTN system is just exactly what you'd provide as a failover/backup if you were designing the thing from scratch - instead you've just got one massive single point of failure.
If someone can come up with the spec of a UPS that will keep a broadband line running for 12 hours then that would be a far more useful avenue to explore (IMVHO)

Quote from: robinc on Oct 05, 2022, 07:57:13
Ha! bloody Ha!
FTTP in our area - probably never at the current rate.
All this is total bollox when the simple fact is that when you're without power IT WON'T WORK!  :mad: :mad: :mad:
The PSTN system is just exactly what you'd provide as a failover/backup if you were designing the thing from scratch - instead you've just got one massive single point of failure.
If someone can come up with the spec of a UPS that will keep a broadband line running for 12 hours then that would be a far more useful avenue to explore (IMVHO)

+1

Quote from: stan on Oct 04, 2022, 21:45:46
Simon, regarding a facebook account   .....  I don't have one, mainly coz I don't want to display my name on t'internet - however, a bit like yourself, I would occasionally like to be able to contact organizations or companies for whatever reason (i suppose mainly to complain about something when all else has failed).

Just a shame that the lack of awareness of most Facebook users means that they have given the Son of Satan the right to access pretty much everything on their computer so if your name is in their address book the data may well have been passed on - and did they ask for your permission to pass on your data?

Quote from: robinc on Oct 05, 2022, 07:57:13
If someone can come up with the spec of a UPS that will keep a broadband line running for 12 hours then that would be a far more useful avenue to explore (IMVHO)

The small UPS my parents have will power the ONT, the router (a Raspberry Pi4) and a low power travel access point (gl-inet GL-SFT1200 "Opal" in access point mode) for about 2½ hours. You do have to reconfigure it so as not to power itself off after 10 minutes in "low load" state.

If I wanted something more long lasting, a large 12V caravan battery and some voltage regulators (12V for the ONT and 5V for the others) would probably be a good idea.

The trouble is that a lot of the areas which are likely to face the long power outages are also areas which have a demographic biased towards people who no longer work while a lot of those who do work are in the sort of jobs that these days are zero-hours minimum wage contracts.  Having over £100 to lash out on a way to maintain a service they have always had as part of their normal day-to-day outgoings is not an option for many.

Quote from: Postal on Oct 05, 2022, 12:50:22
The trouble is that a lot of the areas which are likely to face the long power outages are also areas which have a demographic biased towards people who no longer work while a lot of those who do work are in the sort of jobs that these days are zero-hours minimum wage contracts.  Having over £100 to lash out on a way to maintain a service they have always had as part of their normal day-to-day outgoings is not an option for many.

I agree, its interesting how much faster fibre is being rolled out than the original broadband, its so much more profitable. All the skills that can be got rid of, the need to provide power to make the system work (safely) and as usual the people paying for this will be the poor and in rural areas.  I know parts of Welsh towns that lack reliable mobile phone reception and we are over the border in Oswestry and I rely of Wi-Fi to use my mobile at home! But that with the new fibre system will be up to me to find a way round, growth in carrier pigeons? Good for the senior managers and shareholders poor for many other though including the many existing staff who will lose their jobs and get cuts in pay and conditions

Quote from: Simon on Oct 05, 2022, 01:41:14
We're slightly straying off course here but I've just moved from O2 to a SIM only Pay Monthly contract with Sky Mobile.  I'm paying them £7 per month for unlimited calls and texts, plus 3GB data, the same as I was paying O2 nearly £16 per month for.  The reason I switched was O2's appalling customer service.  I realise that I am still technically on O2, as Sky piggyback on their network, but at least I'm only paying half the price I was paying before.

With regards Facebook, Stan, there are lots of privacy settings where you can lock your profile down so that only people that you want to see you can see you.  That said, I'm sure people don't always use their full real names.  I don't have any personal details in my profile, and as far as I can recall, the only validation they require on registration is an email address, but it's been a while since I joined, so that may have changed.

I'm not surprised you had a poor experience with o2, Simon, as, according to Trustpilot, only 13% award them top marks.  But, as mentioned, my main reason for taking the new SIM contract was, apart from it being easy to simply swap as I was already with them, the presence of a local o2 shop with real people in it offers some reassurance to me regarding both the phone and the account in the event of a problem.  And the price was fair at £6 a month fro the calls, texts and respectable data allowance (in actual fact they weren't advertising that deal but I spotted it on Moneysaving expert and they honoured it without any quibbling).

Regarding Facebook, I'll think I'll chicken out for the time being.

Having a shop and real people is no guarantee of satisfactory service.  Last December we went to our nearest Three shop after they told us they had a phone in stock that my wife fancied.  When we got there it was out of stock but they said they would order it in on their online system although we would have to pay upfront.  We duly did so but before delivery cancelled the order as they said they would be too busy to transfer the data over from her existing phone.

All of our efforts with Three to have our £429 returned were fruitless and we eventually put in claims through the credit card chargeback system and also through the Financial Ombudsman as it was a credit transaction.  Both found in our favour but it took from the 14th. Dec. 2021 to 13th. Apr. 2022 to get our money back (along with all the stress as well as the time taken in trying to get things resolved).  Unfortunately we had only just renewed our contracts with Three but we are now at the end of those SIM-only contracts and can go somewhere with a bit more respect for their customers in the next couple of weeks.

I've only been with them for a few weeks, but I've so far found no reason not to recommend Sky Mobile.  They do some good SIM only and 'with a phone' deals, and they did at least answer the phone within a couple of minutes when I had a query relating to my order.  I received the SIM within three days, which would have been sooner, but for the current disruptions to the postal service.  A further 12 hours later, my number had been transferred and I was up and running. 

Quote from: stan on Oct 05, 2022, 13:55:26

I'm not surprised you had a poor experience with o2, Simon, as, according to Trustpilot, only 13% award them top marks.  But, as mentioned, my main reason for taking the new SIM contract was, apart from it being easy to simply swap as I was already with them, the presence of a local o2 shop with real people in it offers some reassurance to me regarding both the phone and the account in the event of a problem.  And the price was fair at £6 a month fro the calls, texts and respectable data allowance (in actual fact they weren't advertising that deal but I spotted it on Moneysaving expert and they honoured it without any quibbling).

Glad to hear you got a good deal, Stan.  Incidentally, mine was one of the negative reviews for O2 on Trustpilot.  After I terminated the service, they actually ended up owing me a little bit of money, which it took a further effort to claim back. I ended up leaving messages (PMs) on their Facebook and Twitter pages, and it still took them three days to respond.

Going back to the original topic, the other unknowable is timing. For example, in our area OR were going round axing landlines left right and centre. Then came the pause in rollout, during which time we are told they will be looking at the issues raised vis-a-vis power cuts and backup power supplies which were mentioned but never arrived.

So we have a dwindling timescale during which - at any time it seems - the dreaded vans will appear and lines be chopped off. Naturally we will all receive an exact pro-rata refund for the unusable line rental.

I have no need of a VOIP phone, our mobiles do Wifi Calling quite happily (can be a bit 'warbly' but usually fine). I have no desire to fork out £12.50 a month (£150 a year) to replace the £130 ish I pay for a landline that gets used for outbound calls about 8 times a year. Sadly due to EE and their inability to fix a local mast issue I have to renew it this year to be on the safe side.

Im happy with EE they cocked up my sim only avvount and gave me unlimited data (at full speed over 3G/4G 5G) and unlimited calls and texts and 4 bundles  with a £5 offodd as they mucked me around when they lost my tariff after changing it without asking me when on a call. I can swap around each month with four bundles using my phone abroad with its data, Apple Music, Prime or BritBox (never use that). All for £20 a month which suits me fine. Speeds are very good and now its not in contract its a 30 day rolling plan, so I'm happy with that. Where I live we have masts at the toop of the village for all the usual suspects so great coverage, good deals if you look around on O2 but thoer network speeds can be slow and three seem to be updating thoer 4G network in this area but no 5G, and my iPhone 14 Pro uses 5G happily here. My careline uses my router via Ethernet or 4G via a roaming sim card built in so going SOGEA was painless pretty much, and no spam calls its lovely. I don't miss my landline at all tbh. Also we have Giganet putting in FTTP now so I could leave IDNet and go full 900Mbps Symmetrical for £40 or a more sensible 500Mbps symmetrical for £36 including VAT.

The Only issue is they don't have any SMTP servers and I don't want to keep logging into my domain mail, or pass it though Gmail as google reads everything in Gmail pretty much and Im not running a mail server with the price of electricity the way it is. So even though full fibre is 6ft away I wont be leaving IDNet just yet, hopefully as the neighbours hop on to giganet who's contractors went though three gas lines and loads of openreach armoured cables and then tried to patch them up themselves (I had to call Openreach to come out and fix that as the lying contractor had said they had been out and said what a great job he had done) his face was a picture when they turned up and had to splice and gel crimp new cables in to fix it two hours later)  ;D Our very pretty close now looks like a bombs hit it sadly as they destroyed the pavements grass areas too.  >:(

You don't necessarily have to pay anything to keep your landline phone number. I have two VoIP numbers with SIPGate which cost me nothing. I just have to keep them alive by making a call to them every now and then. One's idle, but has the Pat Simmons speaking clock on it.

Quote from: nowster on Oct 06, 2022, 11:14:50
You don't necessarily have to pay anything to keep your landline phone number. I have two VoIP numbers with SIPGate which cost me nothing. I just have to keep them alive by making a call to them every now and then. One's idle, but has the Pat Simmons speaking clock on it.

Unfortunately Sipgate have recently announced that they are re-configuring their "Basic" offering and it will become a chargeable service - not sure whether that applies to existing customers.

Reviving an old topic, BT customers on our exchange (Embleton, NEEN) have received letters informing them that the PSTN service will be ceased within the next 30 days.  I contacted Support at IDNet to ask if that would also apply to IDNet customers, particularly those like ourselves who are old enough to be considered as vulnerable and who live in an area without mobile reception.  I have just received a very worrying reply that IDNet do not intend to make any arrangements for vulnerable customers and it is up to the customer to make their own arrangements for power back up.  This is in direct contravention of the OfCOM instructions (as in the letter available at https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0030/264846/open-letter-999-programme.pdf (https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0030/264846/open-letter-999-programme.pdf)).

I have asked IDNet for their comments and will get back once I hear.

Quote from: Postal on Nov 20, 2023, 11:13:44
Reviving an old topic, BT customers on our exchange (Embleton, NEEN) have received letters informing them that the PSTN service will be ceased within the next 30 days.  I contacted Support at IDNet to ask if that would also apply to IDNet customers, particularly those like ourselves who are old enough to be considered as vulnerable and who live in an area without mobile reception.  I have just received a very worrying reply that IDNet do not intend to make any arrangements for vulnerable customers and it is up to the customer to make their own arrangements for power back up.  This is in direct contravention of the OfCOM instructions (as in the letter available at https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0030/264846/open-letter-999-programme.pdf (https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0030/264846/open-letter-999-programme.pdf)).

I have asked IDNet for their comments and will get back once I hear.

Swift reverse ferret from IDNet!

"We do of course advise customer's that during a powercut their service will not be available so advise having an alternative contact method to hand such as a mobile phone.
If a customer is vulnerable then we will supply a back for an 1hr so calls to emergency services can be made."

I know we've been through this before but feel free to nod sagely at this piece in The Guardian. If you don't want to register, use archive.ph to read the article.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/nov/20/as-uk-landlines-go-digital-fears-grow-for-vulnerable-people-whose-home-phone-is-a-lifeline

It'll be interesting to see what happens when they switch off Canterbury. It's notorious for having no mobile signal on almost any network and the flakiest broadband. In fact it's recently been named as having the slowest broadband in the UK.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-worst-broadband-speed-kent-b2420006.html

A battery backup is not going to be of much help if you've no mobile signal or working broadband connection.

A battery backup on your own equipment isn't much help if the battery has been stolen from the OpenReach cabinet (which is what has happened in a few places).

This is a reason South East Water have given for not having a backup generator in my local pumping station - because people nick the fuel.  ::)

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Nov 20, 2023, 16:23:11
A battery backup is not going to be of much help if you've no mobile signal or working broadband connection.

Whilst these are still going to need a battery backup of some sort, they may be useful for getting a usable mobile signal in an otherwise poor area.  Not exactly cheap and looking at the spec sheet they are power hungry (40W max) so you would need a decent sized battery backup.

The interesting point though is that the regs for signal boosters are being relaxed so there may be a lot more coming on the market over the next few years.

https://signalboosters.co.uk (https://signalboosters.co.uk)

Quote from: Tacitus on Nov 20, 2023, 19:31:33
Whilst these are still going to need a battery backup of some sort, they may be useful for getting a usable mobile signal in an otherwise poor area.  Not exactly cheap and looking at the spec sheet they are power hungry (40W max) so you would need a decent sized battery backup.

The interesting point though is that the regs for signal boosters are being relaxed so there may be a lot more coming on the market over the next few years.

https://signalboosters.co.uk (https://signalboosters.co.uk)

I think there's an issue with planning for masts because it's considered an area of historic significance. I lived there for a while during the 70's and it certainly was an amazing place then but not so much now. A few masts would probably go unnoticed such is the state of it.

I've struck a deal with Ogi - a Welsh super fast broadband provider to have 150Mb for £15 a month for two years.  I can keep my landline providing it's a BT line if I pay an extra £5 a month for evenings and weekends or £10 for 24/7.  SWAMBO says it's imperative to have the latter.  Sad to leave IDNet after all these years but they don't cover our area.   :bawl:

Parts of our village have fibre, some do not, we are in the have not area. We do have Virgin cable so will we be forced to switch over to Virgin when copper is switched off – I have no wish to subscribe to Virgin as they seem to have a lot of issues.

We do have good mobile signals but that is not really the point as I am referring to 'normal' times, not if there is a power cut.

Quote from: camdave on Nov 21, 2023, 20:04:34
Parts of our village have fibre, some do not, we are in the have not area. We do have Virgin cable so will we be forced to switch over to Virgin when copper is switched off – I have no wish to subscribe to Virgin as they seem to have a lot of issues.

We do have good mobile signals but that is not really the point as I am referring to 'normal' times, not if there is a power cut.

If the mobile signal is good enough there is always the option of completely ditching any landline or fibre connection and doing everything over the mobile networks.  It is possible to retain your existing landline number going down that route by switching to a standalone VoIP povider before turning off the landline.  There is anecdotal evidence elsewhere on the net of people doing that and being able to do everything previously done overland (including stuff like streaming of video, TV etc) and bringing their total outgoings down by £10 or £15 a month.

Not to be done until you have satisfied yourself that the mobile signal is adequate!

Well. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/dec/18/uk-telecoms-firms-told-to-safeguard-at-risk-customers-in-switch-to-digital-landlines

I really can't see the rollout being completed by the end of this coming year.  The work that needs doing to every individual property to switch to FTTP means this is a colossal task, and going by my own experience, is by no means a straightforward one.  My bet is that the government will step in and the 'big switch off' will be postponed until at least 2030.

Quote from: Simon on Dec 18, 2023, 17:08:44
I really can't see the rollout being completed by the end of this coming year.  The work that needs doing to every individual property to switch to FTTP means this is a colossal task, and going by my own experience, is by no means a straightforward one.  My bet is that the government will step in and the 'big switch off' will be postponed until at least 2030.

Simon

I think that there is a lot of confusion about the two separate matters of the PSTN (old style analogue) network being turned off and the roll out of full FTTP service.  They are not the same thing and are not related in terms of any implementation plans.

The roll out of the full FTTP service is a colossal task and people who are more versed in these matters than me have posted various dates on the internet but the consensus is that the roll out will take until the mid-2030s and even at that point there will be properties that cannot receive FTTP and who will effectively have there overland communication methods removed to be replaced by mobile signal, satellite WiFi or some other technology.

That is not the same as the switch off of the PSTN network.  This will happen before the end of 2025 and is not related to FTTP.  For those without FTTP but who have "fibre" internet (FTTC or Fibre to the Cabinet) the last bit of copper which brings things to their premises carries two signals piggy-backed onto each other.  The first is the analogue phone signal.  This comes by copper from the local exchange to the cabinet providing service to the premises where the signal for the individual property is split out and run to the premises usually by underground duct or overhead pole.  This signal includes a low voltage DC element which makes the telephone bell ring when a call is received; this DC current is provided by back-up equipment at the exchange which maintains service if there is a power cut.  The second signal coming to the premises along the same copper wire is the VDSL signal providing the internet to the premises.  This reaches the cabinet along an optic fibre cable; this may follow the existing route from the local exchange or may come direct from the "head-end" exchange.  The head-end typically covers the areas of a number of local exchanges; even if the fibre route follows the existing route via a local exchange there is no kit needed in the local exchange to handle the signal.  At the cabinet the optical signal through the fibre is converted to an electrical digital signal and piggy-backed onto the existing copper connections to the premises.  This is dependent on a power supply at the cabinet to make the optical to electrical conversion and will typically provide power for three or four hours so after that time even if the user has local back up to maintain their router, phones etc, contact will still be lost.

The turn off of the PSTN system will then mean that the "telephone" signal will instead come along the optical fibre from the head end exchange, cutting out the switching and interfacing kit at the local exchange and making that building redundant.  This digital telephone signal will either need telephone kit capable of handling digital rather than analogue, a router capable of converting the new signal with a port into which the existing phone can be plugged or an ATA (Analogue Telephone Adapter) that plugs into one of the ethernet ports on the router and has a phone socket into which the existing phone can be plugged.  All of this means that a user wishing to maintain contact needs back-up power supply in case of a local power outage.  This change from PSTN to digital offers up massive capital and revenue savings for the telecom providers (lots of redundant property whose value can be realised and a lot less costly maintenance) so there is a big incentive for the providers to go ahead.  Unless there is a massive change of circumstances those in the know seem to be confident that the PSTN service will be ceased by December 2025 no matter what local objections are raised.

Those of us who live in rural areas which are prone to power cuts (we live in an area which typically has three or four twelve-hour power cuts each year and we have no mobile signal) have been banging on about this ever since the plans were announced but it is only comparatively recently that those in more metropolitan areas are starting to realise the consequences.  The mobile phone operators are finally planning to bring service to our area with a go-live date in the first part of next year but that is no panacea as the mast will be on the same power circuits as the rest of the village.  Masts usually have battery back up giving three to four hours of life during a power cut so that is a sticking plaster rather than a solution.  For those in locations like ourselves, until full FTTP is provided and no matter what local arrangements are made for power backup then in the event of a power cut of the usual pattern that we see there will be an area which is totally devoid of any communications after the first few hours of the power outage.

Not a good situation to which we can look forward!

TLDR:  The turn off of the old style phone signal is not related to the supply of FTTP to bring fibre to the house.  This turn off will happen by December 2025 no matter what.

Thanks Postal.

I did 'know' that, but I don't really think it's all registered in the brain at this time.  Your detailed explanation is very helpful.

Quote from: Simon on Dec 19, 2023, 11:03:40
Thanks Postal.

I did 'know' that, but I don't really think it's all registered in the brain at this time.  Your detailed explanation is very helpful.

Thanks for the nice words.

One other thing to remember is that service providers are mandated by OfCOM to maintain communication so that vulnerable people can contact the emergency services.  The actual implementation has been degraded after conversation between the ISPs and OfCOM to maintaining communication with the emergency services for up to an hour.  This applies to people that the ISP knows are in the vulnerable category so it is up to the individual consumer to make sure that they are on the at-risk register of the provider.  The communication method may be by giving the at risk person a mobile phone where there is a signal or by supplying free of charge a battery back to power the router for an hour.  There has been at least one case in our village where a couple both in their 70s were charged by BT for the supply of a back up battery as they had not advised BT of their circumstances.  So from a steam-age system which maintained communication 24/7 (faults and breakdowns excepted) modern technology is taking us to a situation where vulnerable people will be effectively cut off from communication for the greater part of a typical power cut in our area.  However, it is enabling the providers to cut their fixed and revenue costs so that their profits increase.  I am no lover of nationalisation per se but I wonder if things would have taken a different route in the old GPO days.

Quote from: Postal on Dec 19, 2023, 17:48:50
........I am no lover of nationalisation per se but I wonder if things would have taken a different route in the old GPO days.

300 Baud Acoustic Couplers would be my guess.... :)x

There has been another bump in the road for the great switch with Telecare systems https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/telecare-stakeholder-plan-analogue-to-digital-switchover-august-2023-update/telecare-stakeholder-action-plan-analogue-to-digital-switchover-august-2023-update however as it only affects a couple of a million old people I doubt OR will do little more than pay lip service to anything that stands in the way of their bottom line. There have already been reports of telecare end users having been switched as they didn't understand what they had to do to be in the 'At Risk' register in the first place and their device providers don't have digital alternatives yet.

Quote from: robinc on Dec 20, 2023, 05:34:48
300 Baud Acoustic Couplers would be my guess.... :)x

Mine too.

On a good day the GPO could be poor, most of the time they were appalling.

It didn't really occur to me cable companies like Virgin Media are also part of the process. A friend who has an extremely vulnerable partner and lives within a mobile not-spot hasn't had a working phone since it was switched over three months ago. According to a fairly reliable source, Virgin have now put a hold on any further roll-out.

Quote from: Postal on Dec 19, 2023, 09:40:17
The first is the analogue phone signal.  This comes by copper from the local exchange to the cabinet providing service to the premises where the signal for the individual property is split out and run to the premises usually by underground duct or overhead pole.  This signal includes a low voltage DC element which makes the telephone bell ring when a call is received; this DC current is provided by back-up equipment at the exchange which maintains service if there is a power cut.

Not quite.

There is a DC voltage, typically about 50V when the phone is "on hook" and about 10V when it's "off hook". The sound is modulated on top of that by the exchange and the phone.

When there is ringing present, an AC voltage is applied on top of the DC voltage, typically 80V at 16Hz, with sufficient current to drive a mechanical ringer. You can get a bit of a zing if you're touching the wires of a phone line when it's ringing.

A VoIP ATA reproduces all of that internally.

And then there are the DSL signals modulated on top of all of that, typically from about 100kHz-2MHz.

Thanks for the clarification.  What was that thing about "a little knowledge . . . "

We have a cordless phone with answerphone will we still be able to use them after the switchover?? ???

Quote from: robinc on Dec 20, 2023, 05:34:48
300 Baud Acoustic Couplers would be my guess.... :)x

There has been another bump in the road for the great switch with Telecare systems https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/telecare-stakeholder-plan-analogue-to-digital-switchover-august-2023-update/telecare-stakeholder-action-plan-analogue-to-digital-switchover-august-2023-update however as it only affects a couple of a million old people I doubt OR will do little more than pay lip service to anything that stands in the way of their bottom line. There have already been reports of telecare end users having been switched as they didn't understand what they had to do to be in the 'At Risk' register in the first place and their device providers don't have digital alternatives yet.

In our area because Sogea is now a thing the care telecare providers give you a GSM 4G unit which can also be plugged into wifi/Ethernet depending which manufacture of devices they have in stock. Most companies have been aware and have sent out the new equipment up quite quickly around here, I imagine that hopefully will be the same nationwide and the devices they now sent out via parceforce and  are so easy to set up they dot even send out a person to do it. The unit talks the person though the process which is basically pl;ace the unit plug in and wait and then wear a pendant in one of a few ways like on your wrist of round your neck, sadly things like bed sensors, Pill dispensers and Alzheimer voice sensors to stop people wondering off where a family member can record a message are all being phased out.

The care line team in our area, (it was the district council but they sold the service off as it was to expensive to run)  >: have taken away the better Tunstall units and are replacing them with no cheaper more basic units made cheaply and which look ugly plastic that self install.

Its all about cash and suposedly makes people feel safe as its on the cellular system (or Ethernet or Wi-Fi if you have a router and broadband of some flavour. Yes the battery in the GSM units will last 72 hours, but the masts will be long dead by and cabs batteries don't last long. So the more comprehensive monitoring has been removed so it's basic to say the least. Also with 4-5 hours as an average wait time for a ambulance in my part of West Sussex being old and or disabled feels like you have been thrown to the wolves.  :(
 

Quote from: Gary on Dec 25, 2023, 13:42:43
......... Also with 4-5 hours as an average wait time for a ambulance in my part of West Sussex being old and or disabled feels like you have been thrown to the wolves.  :(

SINGLE FIGURES!!!! cor blimey I can just about remember those good old days....  :o

Didn't you get the memo? To borrow a seasonally topical phrase it's all about "reducing the surplus population".....  :evil:

Quote from: talos on Dec 25, 2023, 08:57:39
We have a cordless phone with answerphone will we still be able to use them after the switchover?? ???

Depending on your router you should be able to either just plug the base station in to the router, or you'll need an ATA adapter to fit between base station and router.
I'm still unclear as to whether we as end users have to buy these or whether iDNet will be supplying them....?

Quote from: robinc on Dec 26, 2023, 06:52:11
Depending on your router you should be able to either just plug the base station in to the router, or you'll need an ATA adapter to fit between base station and router.
I'm still unclear as to whether we as end users have to buy these or whether iDNet will be supplying them....?

I think you can provide your own router, or buy one from IDNet or elsewhere.  When you go through the ordering process it asks if you have a router or would like to buy one.  I was going to keep the one I've got, but I wasn't 100% sure that it would be compatible, so I've bought one off of IDNet, so if anything goes wrong they can't turn round and say it's down to my equipment!

Quote from: Simon on Dec 26, 2023, 12:22:13
I think you can provide your own router, or buy one from IDNet or elsewhere.  When you go through the ordering process it asks if you have a router or would like to buy one.  I was going to keep the one I've got, but I wasn't 100% sure that it would be compatible, so I've bought one off of IDNet, so if anything goes wrong they can't turn round and say it's down to my equipment!

Sorry, what i meant was whether iDNet would be providing the ATA adapter (FOC naturally), not the router  :D

The recent storms took out the power here. We also lost our mobile connection to two different providers all at the same time. Living in a rural area it makes you realise just how vulnerable you are if an emergency occurs. I can see people, especially the vulnerable having to resort to satellite phones in future.

Apparently, if you were in a real emergency and called 999, your phone will search for any signal from any provider. 

Quote from: Simon on Jan 29, 2024, 20:20:54
Apparently, if you were in a real emergency and called 999, your phone will search for any signal from any provider.

Indeed so, but that is predicated on having any sort of mobile signal available.  To further cloud the issue most masts have battery back-up that lasts 3 or 4 hours at most so a long-lasting power cut will see all of the mobile signals disappear in due course.  There is also the problem that even if you have a UPS so that you can power your router and maintain communication through internet or WiFi calling on the mobile then that will die fairly soon if you are on FTTC rather than FTTP.  Not sure about the altnets but the BT FTTP offering is entirely passive from the head-end exchange to the premises with no switching gear or anything requiring power and the assumption is that the head-end exchange has resilient power back-up.  So BT-based FTTP should continue to work throughout.  However, FTTC (VDSL) is supplied by fibre from the head-end exchange to the local green cabinet which then has electrical gizmos to convert the optical signal to the copper-wire signal for supply to the premises.  These cabinets also usually have battery back-up for 3 to 4 hours.

We live in a mobile free area and the village have found enough grant funding to install solar panels and a storage battery in the village hall so that the internet in the hall will remain powered during an outage.  However, the last power cut went on for about 6 hours and after 3 hours the hall was nice and warm and the kettle was working well but the internet had gone down.  As we haven't yet hit the December 2025 deadline, those with old style hard-wired phones still had communication but the advances in modern technology (therefore it must be good) will take that option away in due course and we will be without any external communication after the first few hours of a power-cut - and that situation will be the same even if we have a mobile phone mast installed.

Quote from: robinc on Dec 27, 2023, 06:23:52
Sorry, what i meant was whether iDNet would be providing the ATA adapter (FOC naturally), not the router  :D

Much delayed reply .......  have no doubt that as we speak (January 2024) Idnet do not supply a free ATA.

At the moment they show a Grandstream HT 801 for £79.99 (just one FXS phone port) - and a Cisco SPA 191 for £120 (two FXS phone ports). I'm unsure if they discount these prices if you take out a 12 month broadband plan.

As Simon has recently mentioned they also show one router that has one built in phone port ... The TP Link VX230.(discounted price £59.99 if you take out their 12 month plan)

They show lots of other routers but unless you're very familiar with the numbering routine that ASUS use or can make sense of the (hugely complicated) list of technical specs thast ASUS publish then you've got your work cut out in deciding which is the one for you.

I still find it hard to believe that the TP-Link router with the FXS port costs significantly less than a stand alone ATA. 

There has to be a reason why, of all the routers that Idnet show/sell literally only one has FXS ports built in.

There just has to be a reason. In life there's a reason for everything ... it's just that it's not always obvious  :dunno:

Regarding the switch off, I spoke to a neighbour yesterday. They've recently had FTTP installed by OR and obviously now use it for their broadband. They have BT for their broadband service.  They have retained their old BT master socket (the one that receives the incoming external copper pair) and had the new ONT fitted just above it and they said they've kept the phone line and will continue to use it until it's switched off. The OR installer offered to remove the existing copper cable but they've kept it in place and, by the sound of it, are continuing to use it as per usual.  That must, obviously enough, be a viable option. Maybe it's exclusive to BT customers?? I don't know.

I'm intending to carry on using my old copper phone line, at least for now, and IDNet have confirmed that is an option.  If the OR engineers remove it, I won't be very happy so I will make sure they're aware. 

I may not wait until 2025 to switch over though.  Depending how reliable the FTTP is, I may go over to the IDNet UBOSS service, as that actually works out cheaper than the current phone line, plus I'd get mobile calls included in the package. 

Does anyone know if incoming calls diverted to a mobile would still work when using a VoIP service, in the event of a power outage?

I've just been reading this ......

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/best-way-to-keep-landline-when-going-fttp.39599/

Someone mentioned a firm called Premitel there and it does look half reasonable.  There's also further mentions of Andrews and Arnold (AAISP) of course. There always is.

Gotta be honest I'm increasing leaning towards going over to them. I've spoken on the phone a few times and it's always been positive. I would have their most basic FTTP (115/20) at £37 a month and their VOIP phone plan at £1.40 a month. £100 set up includes a router although I'd pay £30 or £40 extra to get a better router.

I had a reply to my enquiry to Idnet and they gave prices for keeping the ADSL and phone service that I'm on at the moment.

To renew next month and stay just as I am is £39 for the ADSL and the phone (or £42 if I paid monthly).  They no longer offer the 'free month' that they used to when you paid annually instead of monthly.  Obviously their FTTP and VOIP prices are on the website.

Just an observation really; OpenReach have replaced all the copper in my area with fibre. That's approx. 38,000 properties and just to be clear, it's pretty obvious all the copper connections have gone.

YouFibre who appear to have a glowing reputation are offering introductory 24 month packages starting at £19.99 a month for 150/20 + £3 for unlimited evening and weekend landline calls. Even at full price they have 500Mbps @ £34.99 which is £1 less than I'm currently paying for 5 times the download speed. They also offer an existing contract buy out although I don't know the details.

The bottom line, it seems there are an increasing number of competitors out there offering some very attractive deals.

That's cheap.

But not availablein the South West where I am. They only started in 2019.

I wonder if we should query how they do it at approx half the cost of the bulk of providers ... and expect to continue for the long term? 

I'm led to believe that people like Idnet (and the other provider who's name Ive mentioned more than once) charge a fee which reflects the cost of providing the long term service and research that they need to remain stable and viable).  But, as always, I know remarkably little.

Bit off topic, but as an alternative, I see IDNet are now offering a redirection service for £6 a month, inc VAT. Very tempted. I like having landline number but rarely use it, only having it as a back up really so this might be handy.

Quote from: peasblossom on Apr 03, 2024, 22:46:28
Bit off topic, but as an alternative, I see IDNet are now offering a redirection service for £6 a month, inc VAT. Very tempted. I like having landline number but rarely use it, only having it as a back up really so this might be handy.

I've moved the above post into the more appropriate thread.

That's an interesting development, but it seems just to be a diversion service - it would still leave the user without a lanline phone to make outgoing calls on. 

According to the Daily Mail the brakes have been applied for a couple of years (at least) due to technology gaps.

Quote from: Simon on Apr 03, 2024, 23:06:29
I've moved the above post into the more appropriate thread.

That's an interesting development, but it seems just to be a diversion service - it would still leave the user without a landline phone to make outgoing calls on. 

It's supposed to be a bridge between landline and voip that you don't need to get any widgets for. That's it's selling point for me. Well, that and the low cost.

Quote from: robinc on Apr 04, 2024, 07:38:42
According to the Daily Mail the brakes have been applied for a couple of years (at least) due to technology gaps.

The thing is, IDNet's UBOSS service is actually cheaper than having the BT landline service with them, so, in that sense, it pays to switch to VoIP if you are able to.

Quote from: Simon on Apr 04, 2024, 10:08:11
The thing is, IDNet's UBOSS service is actually cheaper than having the BT landline service with them, so, in that sense, it pays to switch to VoIP if you are able to.

OK, the other selling point is I can switch to this one (I hope!) but UBOSS is not possible unless I'm happy to stump up for the widget that goes with it. £66 is out of my range.

I think, in time, the connectivity devices will become cheaper.  I'd even cautiously wager that BT might even provide an alternative before the big switch off.  Isn't there already talk of them installing ATAs at some of the exchanges where FTTP isn't even on the horizon?

Also, FXS enabled routers will be cheaper as they become more widespread.  My discounted TP-Link VX230v from IDNet (with FXS) worked out much cheaper than buying a router and a separate ATA.

Of course, whether I ever get to see if it works depends on the ongoing drama getting the FTTP installed in the first place.  :facepalm:

But of course, if I tried to get it redirected now, I'd cut my broadband off. Really tired of not having FFTP.

Quote from: peasblossom on Apr 05, 2024, 16:03:07
But of course, if I tried to get it redirected now, I'd cut my broadband off. Really tired of not having FFTP.

If I've understood other information on the internet, Andrews & Arnold (AAISP) have their own VOIP service and have a process where the number can be transferred without the cessation of the broadband.  The only trouble is that I can't remember whether it was for numbers in or out!

Quote from: Postal on Apr 06, 2024, 09:14:04
If I've understood other information on the internet, Andrews & Arnold (AAISP) have their own VOIP service and have a process where the number can be transferred without the cessation of the broadband.  The only trouble is that I can't remember whether it was for numbers in or out!

When I recently spoke to them they confirmed it's far better to request a FTTP transfer from Idnet to AAISP first - then when it's underway to request they port my landline number from Idnet to them.
They didn't seem to think it was difficult and their VOIP service is remarkably cheap compared to elsewhere. Especially if you only want to keep the landline number for occasional use and/or incoming calls.

Which is great, but for reasons unknown to me (I've googled "if city fibre are in my street why can't I get full fibre?" and am none the wiser) I still have to wait for FTTP. That's the snag in all the options.

There you have me. Can't help.

Have you checked Sam knows?

Well as I have only got FTTC around here I decided to opt for the Idnet Sogea and Uboss Voip option so placed an order with Idnet and purchased A TPlink VX230 router from them. I successfully installed and set this up, Broadband working fine. Change of system booked to happen on the 18th of this month, yesterday morning went to use landline Phone - dead! Looks like the Sogea part of the work has already happened but not Voip part as plugging the cordless phone into the Router gives me a dial tone but no ability to make/receive Phone calls! Idnet support are chasing it up so hopefully get my landline back and working soon!  :-\  :facepalm:

Good luck with that, Ray.  Keep us informed.

Openreach appear to be reinstating copper lines to an assisted living estate near where we live. They already have FTTP so I can't imagine what else it could be :dunno:

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Apr 12, 2024, 18:22:11
Openreach appear to be reinstating copper lines to an assisted living estate near where we live. They already have FTTP so I can't imagine what else it could be :dunno:

Either as a result of the estate having things like alarm pendants still on copper-style technology rather than IP-based or so that existing landlines will work through the kit being installed in exchanges to act in lieu of an ATA at the premises.  The latter has been referenced somewhere in this forum but I can't find the link at the moment.  Whichever way it will only be a temporary expedient.

Is this what you're referring to, Postal?

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2024/03/openreach-to-pilot-alternative-uk-analogue-phone-line-in-may-2024.html

Quote from: Postal on Apr 16, 2024, 08:25:13
Either as a result of the estate having things like alarm pendants still on copper-style technology rather than IP-based or so that existing landlines will work through the kit being installed in exchanges to act in lieu of an ATA at the premises.  The latter has been referenced somewhere in this forum but I can't find the link at the moment.  Whichever way it will only be a temporary expedient.

I guess that's probably it. It may be coincidence but there was a serious fire at one of the properties not so long ago. If it wasn't for the bravery of a passing neighbour, the occupant who is unable to walk, would have gone up with it.

Quote from: peasblossom on Apr 16, 2024, 08:46:38
Is this what you're referring to, Postal?

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2024/03/openreach-to-pilot-alternative-uk-analogue-phone-line-in-may-2024.html

Indeed so.  Thank you.

BT has significantly delayed plans to force customers to switch from physical copper-based landlines to internet-based services following concerns from vulnerable people.

The switch was paused at the end of last year after several incidents where telecare devices stopped working.

Nearly two million people in the UK use personal alarms which rely on landlines.

BT, which is also responsible for EE customers, has now abandoned the timeline of completing the national switchover by the end of 2025, and will instead aim to complete the move by the end of January 2027.

But a campaign group for elderly people has told the BBC the revised timeline is "a token concession".

"The delay is for just over a year, which we don't think is long enough to make sure there are sufficient safeguards for vulnerable customers," said Silver Voices head Dennis Reed.

"BT and the other telecoms firms haven't even worked out what a vulnerable customer actually is, and we are calling for a more defined definition.

"We feel the deadline of January 2027 is very premature."

The move is highly controversial because it will mean an outage, which can be a frequent occurrence in some rural areas, could cause landline phones to no longer work.

It means there is a risk that customers who need personal alarms, which are potentially life-saving, could be left disconnected and without a working device.

BT said its new timetable followed the introduction of a series of improvements to better protect vulnerable customers and those with additional needs.

"The urgency for switching customers onto digital services grows by the day because the 40-year-old analogue landline technology is increasingly fragile," said BT head of security and networks Howard Watson.

"Managing customer migrations from analogue to digital as quickly and smoothly as possible, while making the necessary provisions for those customers with additional needs is critically important."

BT said it will protect vulnerable customers where it is made aware of them, and it plans to provide "resilient solutions" to those who are dependent on their landline.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5119g5z4q5o

"40 year old landline technology" is a bit disingenuous. That puts it at 1984, which is just about the start of the roll out of digital exchanges (eg. System-X). The last conversion from electro-mechanical to digital was in the late 1990s.

They're probably talking about PDH which was obsoleted by SDH and ATM about twenty years ago. Beyond that the backbone has been IP based for at least a decade (21CN).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_21CN

And the automatic telephone exchange dates back over 130 years! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strowger_switch

Quote from: Simon on May 20, 2024, 19:43:03. . . .BT said it will protect vulnerable customers where it is made aware of them, and it plans to provide "resilient solutions" to those who are dependent on their landline. . . .

While BT supply the final mile services to IDNet it is the responsibility of IDNet as ISP to provide the "resilient solution".  The last time I contacted IDNet about this sort of matter (probably eighteen months to two years ago), they had no register of their vulnerable customers so I've no idea how they would know who needs a "resilient solution".

We are going to move back to copper as having been on  Uboss its useless. IDNet support say the router, Netgear whose router it is there router can't creat the frequent disconnections we are told are the problem.  There are NO other problem, I have a number of networked devices on 24/7 that would stop disconnections it only the Uboss service. Friends who have used  internet phones all had problems One needed a pro come and sort it out another like us gave up and went back to copper. Another  had so many problems they were moving so had a copper line  when they moved.

I have a nearly new Orbi 853 with current firmware. Going 80 I just can't deal with it nor will many others, after weeks of phone problems and hours trying to get the useless system to work. But as usual every one blames someone else so best of luck try Uboss.

So what are you going to do when your copper line is switched off?

No idea  but it's not working now. If ISPs only support routers they sell its not a hope of working for most people. Our dentist has been fighting with an Internet phone and that's with using an IT firm.She wishes she had never been sold the idea
 I have no doubt  the systems can work but there looks to be no real support from anyone when there are problem.So you are expexted to pay out to replace ALL your network gear to get support. When the ISP changes what they sell do it again! We want a phone that you pick up and make a phone call and for us IDNet is unable to provide that other than a copper line and that always did work. If we need emergency devices it's usless if you can't rely n a call working and at 80 you may find you need one tomorrow as my brother has unfortunately found. I found it a merry go round of passing the buck and can't deal with it longer and just want a phone that works not every one blaming someone else as we have had.

This is no solution to your problem, but I have to say that am very pleased with UBOSS using a new TPLink VX230v AX1800 router on my SOGEA line. No problems and sound quality is excellent.
I previously tried my old Billion router with a Grandstream HT01 ATA adapter but that could not be made to work.

I also have the TPLink VX230v from IDNet, so hopefully UBOSS will work for me when I come to switch.  I'm holding out at the moment, just to see what develops in the interim, but really, I've no reason not to switch and it would save me a bit of money. 

The core of the BT phone network uses VoIP instead of SS7 on PDH circuits nowadays. However, there is a lot of kit out there designed for the US market with BABT requirements tacked on as an afterthought. (eg. RJ11 instead of BS 6312, particularly missing the ring shunt wire/capacitor)

My Virgin Cable phone line was converted last year to coming out of the router port instead of using the copper pairs. Occasionally when calling it from the mobile phone I get a US-style long ringing tone instead of the UK ring-ring.

We have reached the stage where we have conceded either we stop using a land phone or have to ditch the expensive Orbi's. Netgear suport for the  ortbis has been appalling they spent over 3 weeks basically doing nothing. At one stage I thought Armor (a reused Bitdefender) was the problem. Contacted them and next day they gave instructions on getting debug logs from the router.  In contrast all Netgear have done is have me do totally useless things that never did anything to identify what the problem is and what's causing it. My own view after doing a factory resets is the disabling SIP ALG is not actually working and is causing the Uboss connexion to cycle every 60 seconds.
So an expensive learning experiencing, we are switching to a EX820 based on others saying the simpler model worked well for Uboss.The  820 has the same number of Ethernet outlets as I use on the Orbi router so avoids having to hang a extra router on to it. Its having to use other TP-Link HX220 to get the signal round the house as we have brick walls that cause wi fi problem. IDNet support find it difficult to grasp that some mesh setups really need Ethernet connections. Indeed TP-Link say, hidden down in information, you get a much more reliable Wi Fi using Ethernet not least that the devices can use all the Wi Fi capability for wi fi  not backhaul. Unlike the more expensive Orbis which have dedicated wi fi devices for backhall most mesh devices use the same devices for both uses, wi fi and backhaul.
 

Its been a learning curve not least the IDNet stament  that all you need is a working internet to use Uboss is clearly not true and really should be revised, you need a lot more than just that! At present IDNet are out of stock of the 820 so will report back when we manage to make the change over.

I will be interested to see what actual wi fi speed the new stuff gives. My existing stuff is testing on my phone at a regular 300 down and 150 up in most of the house so in speed the zOrbies work well as I have doubts the replacment ones will get anywhere near these

One thing all my problems experience do show is the great switch over idea is a nightmare. I was told by IDNet all I need was a working fiber system after I changed to it. No mention of switching off  SIP ALG. All I had too do  was plug my preconfigured device in. Latter the need usually to switch off the  SIP ALG was pointed out.
It was never pointed out they could really only give real support to equipment they supplied. I can now understand that but no warning.
My Netgear router clearly has a bug in that its not actually switching off the SIP ALG when configured to do so even after a factory reset.
How many routers have bugs that will cause problems as the UK market is a miner one for most manufactures. Then how many makers support will be as poor as Netgear.
Over all I am reminded of my dentist who has a IT firm who set up and run her IT for a number of sites. They brought in a second firm to install  internet communication and weeks afterword's still having problem. So explained that they had run though the difference between her setups  and some one like BT. BT has dedicated hardware and networks doing nothing but taking standard inputs and transmitting them over the network to the destinations with teams of engineers over seeing 24/7 the process. I have visited one such site banks of moniters and rows of work stations just monitering for problems.
She has a range of different uses of here network some accessing different providers in real time and most using different setups. All of which has to set up to run on there own with with  a range of different bits of equipment. Dental hardware as well as computers etc.
We are more like my dentist rather than like BT and how on earth is that going to work? Who is going to sort out the problems, clearly ISPs are not up to it but when they have to tell customers you have to mygrate then is respocable rather then now when we volanteer to do so?

It gets worse one of the hardware devices I was supplied by IDnet was a very old verion, the current HX220 is hardware vession 1.6 and I was sent, in errer I take it, a V1 that doesnt even meet the current TP-Link easy mesh vession.

Well finally moved over to tp-link EX820v and a HX220. By and large it was the worst experience of changing routers I have ever had. I have used equipment from  Asus, Linksys and a number of Netgear ending with two different Orbi setups.
The first problem wasn't the router it was that IDNet hadn't provided the login password. Was told it was on the router, its wasn't. It got worse, the phone wasn't set up so they had to take control of the router and get that right.

Then it was the router, the manual is at best not very good! I have 3 printers and a NAS needing fixed IP addresses. Support didn't know how you did that but in the end I found it by hunting through the setup. The initial problem was the IP address pool had been wronly setup with 192.168.0.2 so the normal 192.168.1.xxx was rejected. It was support who found this and again sorted it. Fixed address were something this support staff didn't think were either needed or could be created in side the IP range. Even though I have done this with every router befor  I was told you don't do it. But even though the router came up with error's every time he did actually create the fixed IP addresses for all that were needed. So we both learnt something!


OK the phone the object of all this, its working so far. Tested by many calls to support, on occasions reminding me it was via  the internet so when support were having to work on the router you tended to lose the call!

The HX220 supplied was a discontinued model that's all they have I was told. Up date it with the latter hardwares version firmware update was the idea, which off course you can't do as its different hardware. But its not just IDNet only a few retailers of tp-link gear list the hardware version of the devices they list. I now know tp link change in effect models as others do but keep the same names dropping support for the old hardware versions (models). Thus the 220 is now version 1.6 but the one I have is version 1 which is working but will get no further, as far as I can see, updates to it firmware.

 
Speed is OK its providing about 350/450Mb up and down which is in most rooms which is about 70-100Mb slower than the last Orbis. Surprisingly  the switching between to strongest signal wasn't as fast as  with the Orbi as had seen that tp link's strength was its mesh working over Netgear speed. Though slowere in use its not a problem.


Overall, disappointment at the provision of out dated hardware and poorly set up router and not providing the logon password! Also support not actually knowing the setup of the gear they support once out of basic areas e.g. knowing about using/creating fixed local IP addresses. The good, the speed support can log in  to sort out router problems, it's a bit unnerving when I am used to having security checks and my monitoring if anyone is accessing my system. But they did sort out all the problems, most that should never have needed doing.

The last guy agreed he had learn several things after getting my IP addresses fixed. Was it worth it, this was to get the Uboss working so if its done that YES. Should it have been needed, NO. The big lessen for me is how do they expect all copper phones to go in a few years when its been this difficult to get just my one working. PS my dentist  now has a mobile phone number listed on her web site so is still having VoIP problems.

This is why I always use single function devices.

A router that just routes. A WiFi access point that's just an AP. A VoIP ATA that's just an ATA.

All-in-one devices rarely get all aspects right, and you can't replace the bit that annoys you.

That's what I had going before and had endless problems with. Fibre modem, Orbi router and cisco Uboss box. When things went wrong IDNet couldn't/wouldn't support what I had as it wasn't there devices. Netgear support was near useless and with members of the family having terminal illnesses and over 80 ourselves (and me very deaf) we needed land line working (so I am able to hear the phone!)and to prevent my wife litrally having a beeakdown over the problems. It broke my hart to take out the very good Netgear system and replace it with the tacky tp-link stuff but it was the price of getting the phone fully supported by IDNet. Its called having you over a barrel and whichever ISP I looked at they are all as bad.

I also have found the much enthused  tp-link apps are really near useless compared to the one I used for the Orbi which is a pity. The Orbi one could be used anywhere and really gives a lot of router and network information with ability to run it as said anywhere. Aginet can only be used in the network and has very limited facilities. Another difference is the Orbi router could run speed tests directly from the router, tp-link has apparently been oddly been dropping this rapidly. I tried the tp-link ones and only left the Aginst on, Teather was even less use so went fast. A further oddity noticed by support is a networked printer the EX820 insists saying is wi fi when its clearly isn't (indeed doesn't even have the ability either!)

I can't imagine how people managed in the days before we had all this amazing technology...

611pfzil8cl-ac-uf1000-1000-ql80-500x500.jpg


 :facepalm:

SIP+RTP (which is the most common VoIP) can be a swine to get working through NAT on a router especially if you don't know which ports to put in the DMZ, or the provider hasn't set up a STUN server.

(I was first mucking about with VoIP about 20 years ago.)

I can see from that how its going to be interesting. Hopefully as more customers are moved or move to VoIP support will be extended past office hours as well. How someone away in the day could deal with problems must be very difficult!
It would also help is as others on the forum have commented IDNet started the OFCOM required register of vulnerable customers. At no stage was I asked if we had good mobile reception (we don't) or needed a battery backup (we don't as I have a UPS after the experience of friends in the Ceiriog valley without any phone contact for over week (they have now moved because of it)).

But its interesting to see from your experience just how difficult this switch over can be due to the need to correctly setup the router.

In our case we thought about why we needed a replacement VOIP home phone service.

We had our first BT phone installed in the early '70s  so we have grown up with the concept of one phone for the home.   

Then as mobiles became ubiquitous we found we used the home phone less and now of course people ring us and  not the house.   So we've told everyone on the old phone list we are going mobiles only and cancelled our old phone contract.

I guess it was a  change in mindset in our case.

My 2p

Exactly. Also over the last few years there has been a big improvement in how mobiles handle Wifi and 4G calling. Plus, many families use Whatsapp calling.

Not the perfect solution for all, but I think a lot of folks are going to wind up with weird VOIP solutions they don't actually need but will be contracted to pay for.

I have little to report now but after all the indecision on my part I can confirm I finally swapped over to FTTP full fibre with an Idnet Fibre 150 package (not at all sure that exists now) and ported my landline to Andrews and Arnold and have a good VOIP service on that number with a very conventional sounding dial tone when lifting the handset. It's cheap as chips and the tech support was good. I needed some hand holding to configure their control page but they're good at that sort of thing. They also kindly sent me out a new adaptor lead to plug into the green port of the TP Link VX230v router that was supplied by Idnet as part of the new FTTP two year package ..... (the lead that was needed to plug my old analogue phoned in to).  I have two phones plugged in via a very bog standard splitter and both phones work. At £1.44 a month (calls are extra at 1.5 pence per minute) it suited me down to the ground. I could have chosen to have incoming messages either forwarded to my mobile via email or could have had the incoming calls diverted direct to my mobile but have chosen to do neither and if I'm in when the phone rings then I'll answer it and if I'm not I won't.

The FTTP is entirely uneventful and the speed is a very consistent 150Mbs and the internet is now quicker than it was and will hopefully be reliable and free from major trauma for the next two years - and the price is set at todays rate, which is a bonus too.

Good to hear, Stan.   :thumb:

Quote from: Simon on Apr 05, 2025, 20:12:55Good to hear, Stan.   :thumb:

It's not very exciting or eventful but compared to my neighbour's installation it was alright.  And I'm grateful for that, I don't deal with dramas all that well.

Well due to an incompetent builder destroying the fairly new mains fibre cabling we have experienced what its like without a phone.  We found the only reliable mobile phone connection was in a bedroom, not the best location as I have had to call emergency services twice in the past when my wife has collapsed (we are 80+) once with heat related issues! As for IDNet they hardly shone in this, the cable wasn't anything to do with them but the very poor support most certainly is. My only information from IDnet was lengthy phone call to find out (from the bedroom) and told its on our logion hardly much use given what support had been told. They did latter send an email and said they would keep me updated an progress. No further contact after that! The only way was I found was the local Facebook group where others usually posted their ISPs updates.  As other ISPs using Fiber Heros were providing customers with text and email (less reliable given the lose of internet!) updates. Since then Fiber Heros has hardly been outstanding, the recovery has been poor to appalling with IDNet not being responsible for that but still only providing information on line or if you phone while some other ISPs with problems are still contacting customers with updates.
A big difference I now find is some ISPs were offering to transfer phone calls to mobile numbers if wanted. I know IDNet can do this but no offer to do it.

Its not been good we were down for over a day finding mobile reception was poor and support from ISP almost non existent compared to some other ISPs.

Hello John.

I do look in here fairly regularly and try to keep up as best I can and have seen your posts over a period of time. Roughly four or five years I think.

John, I'm not clever enough or sufficiently well informed to reply with advice to your posts ... in which you seem to have had a catalogue of issues - and I'm no better informed now than  I ever was but I do have to ask why you are still with Idnet?  For four or five years you've never once had a good thing to say about them.  In fact none of your posts take the form of positive comments ... they're all complaints and grumbles. Additionally you don't seem to like  UBOSS, you consider Netgear and TP Link Customer Service to be useless (your words). You didn't like Gmail and weren't optimistic about Outlook Express. BT hasn't found any favour with you and the lengthy correspondece over the use of +44 versus standard geographical numbering was quite something. And the absence of reliable mobile coverage within Wales has clearly been a disadvantage for you.

All the above noted difficulties that you've experienced for such a long time must have been a proper nuisance to live with so why on earth have you not changed the providers of your services to alternative suppliers with whom you could have a better relationship?

Like I say I'm no expert and rely on the expertise of those far more knowledgable and have to seek assistance when something crops up - but since 2008 I've remained with Idnet and seem to have got by with remarkably few problems.  I agree the Idnet free mail allocation of 100mb is meagre so I use others which have much better capacity and they work just fine and are mostly free. 

Having looked closely and given it some thought I didn't fancy the UBOSS offering myself and use a separate VOIP provider (I ported my old landline number over to them completely uneventfully) ... one who is well known for both it's expertise and very attractive pricing and whose facilities are ideal for my circumstances and with whom I'm very pleased. I use tradional old type landline phones with the TP Link VX 230v router  ... they simply plug in to the back of it and it all works flawlessly. I get any answerphone messages emailed to me at no charge.

My FTTP fibre with Idnet is utterly uneventful. It just works. If I have a query I call them and they answer straight away and sort me out. My FTTP installation via Openreach was fine. Yes, I did some homework beforehand and did all I could to make life easy for all involved.

I'm very sorry to hear of the grief that these companies seem to give you and hope that between you and your son (who you have said is an electronics engineer and programmer) can get sorted.

Quote from: stan on Jun 21, 2025, 17:28:34My FTTP fibre with Idnet is utterly uneventful. It just works. If I have a query I call them and they answer straight away and sort me out. My FTTP installation via Openreach was fine.

This has been my experience, too. It's been utterly boring (unlike the ADSL2 link it replaced).

We decided to keep the physical landline for as long as we can, which proved to be the correct decision last winter with both Storms Darragh and Éowyn knocking out both power and mobile signal (on all networks, so not even 999 service).

There's only one mast covering the tip of the Llŷn Peninsula, on Mynydd Rhiw, and all the networks use it. When it works, we can actually get a 5G service from it.

A bit of planning helped. The OpenReach FTTP connection stayed up as long as we could keep the ONT and router powered.

The UPS was good for four hours, so that was rationed.

Thankfully there was power for a few hours in the evenings to recharge stuff. I had an old car battery and an inverter which helped provide lighting. We also had candles and USB-chargeable lanterns.

And for heating a multi-fuel stove with back boiler, with lots of coal brought indoors in cardboard boxes. We also had a gas hob connected to an outdoors propane tank for cooking.

If all else failed we also had a camping stove!

When the analogue landline switch-off happens, we'll have to invest in a longer lasting battery backup system, and put a VoIP ATA onto the house phone wiring. (I don't plan to use iDNet's UBOSS offering.) The UPS has too many internal losses to make it efficient for the pretty low current draw that an ONT, Raspberry Pi4 and a travel router (used as a WiFi access point) take. It's a pity the ONT wants 12V, and everything else 5V.

Nowster,You have advised me on one or two matters here in the past - all of which helped me decide the best way to achieve FTTP and VOIP and it sounds like you need all of your knowledge to stay connected in your own circumstances.  If anyone can do it I'm sure you can. :thanku