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How's this going to work then for private individuals with a broadband and private phone line deal with idnet?  ???

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/11/isp-idnet-to-migrate-entire-phone-network-to-all-ip-with-bt.html (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/11/isp-idnet-to-migrate-entire-phone-network-to-all-ip-with-bt.html)

First I've heard of any of this!  I had no idea BT were ending the analogue networks. 

This has been on the cards for several years.  My son bought a new build house in London in May 2017 and the phone is IP only. 

So, what's the difference?

Quality basically.  You still get a phone number as we did with VOIP but it's a poor quality line.  As it's internet based, there are no phone charges.  I understand that BT plans to scrap the exchanges within the near future. 

So, does that mean we will have to change our phone numbers?  I don't want to.    :eyebrow:

So, no more line rental charges then???

I must admit I'm puzzled there's been no communique from Idnet to its customers yet.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the rural farmers with no mobile coverage and 2 Mbs ADSL then !!   :eek4:

I dropped IDNet a line and have received a very helpful explanation of the story so far. I think their long term proactive approach speaks volumes..

"Openreach has been committed to moving to an all-IP infrastructure for the past 10 years and that included moving all voice services to non-copper delivery. A date for final shutdown of the voice on copper (VoC) will be Dec 2025. So the drive for this has come from the UK infrastructure provider not from ISPs such as IDNet.

All ISPs including BT Retail, PlusNet, Sky,TalkTalk are subject to the same retirement plans.

With the increasing footprint of full fibre broadband i.e. FTTP, the reliance on copper infrastructure will start to wane and there will be no requirement to install copper cabling on new builds or deployments.

So for clarity voice on copper (VoC) is being retired but not necessarily the copper line that currently delivers the voice service which will be used to deliver data-only services for those services traditionally delivered on copper.

With regard to the present time how this affects current users depends on the circumstances.

    Current VoC users with ADSL and FTTC – exchanges across the UK have either stopped providing VoC (there are already a handful) or have been issued with stop-sell notices after which time no VoC will be available. FTTC users will need to convert to a new data on copper service called SOGEA and where ADSL is the only option there are plans to provide an alternative data only service – how the latter will work has not been fully defined by Openreach as yet.

    Phone numbers currently on VoC will either need to be migrated to a VoIP service such as our Centrex IP telephony solution or the numbers will simply be released back to the range holder to be retained – the reality being if they are not ported to VoIP they will be lost.

    There will be circumstances where for operational reasons support for an analogue voice service for data transmission via dial-up - care service, alarm i.e. non-voice support will be needed and these we have been told will be assessed on a case by case basis.

    For new installations unless a voice service is needed now and the exchange is not subject to stop-sell then for FTTC, SOGEA will be provided although FTTC with PSTN can be ordered but will cost more than SOGEA. At some point before 2025 any users will be forced to move to SOGEA.

The migration is happening slowly hence the 4 year lead time and we have been looking at options since the start of 2020 to make sure we have chosen the right, most robust and cost-effective options available to offer our users. A lot of ISPs have simply not appreciated the work and planning involved in preparing for VoC retirement and how it will impact their operation whilst with early planning we believe IDNet is positioned perfectly to deal with this challenge. In the New Year we will start informing users of stop-sell dates and VoC retirement on an exchange by exchange basis."

It looks as though my Billion 8000 NL 2 does not have an ATA port so I'll have to get an adapter which is annoying. I guess they will have factored in scaling for the VOIP service - now, if they could also sort a decent SIP app to go with it life would be a lot easier. :)

I wonder how many home user/landline contracts idnet have?

The Centrex IP solution is a business solution. It will be interesting to see if idnet eventually drops its home/landline users and forces us to go elsewhere or whether they develop a financially viable solution for the home user. There seems to be very few VOIP solutions for the home user at the moment. The odd few that do exist get terrible reviews for service. Cost wise it will have to be equal to or less than existing landline rates.

I see that the first PSTN Exchange to go Stop/Sale is Salisbury at the end of December.
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/stopsell/stopsell.do (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/stopsell/stopsell.do)

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/wlrwithdrawal.do (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/wlrwithdrawal.do)

Interesting Stuff!

The only reasonable VoIP provider I've found for residential use is www.sipgate.co.uk. You can operate a number as incoming only for free as long as it gets one call every few months.

So, at the moment, there's nothing in place for residential landlines users to switch to?  What happens to the elderly, and others not on the internet, who rely on telephone communications?

Quote from: Simon on Nov 25, 2020, 20:08:10
So, at the moment, there's nothing in place for residential landlines users to switch to?  What happens to the elderly, and others not on the internet, who rely on telephone communications?

And what about emergency calls where there is no mobile signal?  We currently keep an old wired telephone in the house as we are in a rural location with no mobile signal and have a power cut every two or three months when something brings the power lines down.  If we plug the wired phone in to the copper network we can still communicate with the outside world.  This will not be possible through the ONT and fibre network while Opemreach are supplying ONTs without Battery Back Up units (and even if they do supply ONTs with BBU how long will the battery last)?

I first raised this with IDNet support on 24/10/19 and got this response:

"It will more than likely be a VoIP based solution I would have thought, however we are unsure at this moment time as we are waiting for further information from Openreach, once a plan is properly formulated it will be made aware to our customers via our site and newsletter."

And, does this mean all ADSL customers will have to switch to 'SOGEA'?  I know this isn't happening right now, but as this is the first I've heard of any of this, it's come at a bit of a shock!

I would happily swap my landline (which is never used) for more bandwidth at the same or less cost.

No doubt OpenReach will find a way to make it worse rather than better for the increasing numbers of us who only have a landline because they can't get broadband at sensible prices without one. :slap:

Quote from: Simon on Nov 25, 2020, 21:25:08
And, does this mean all ADSL customers will have to switch to 'SOGEA'?  I know this isn't happening right now, but as this is the first I've heard of any of this, it's come at a bit of a shock!

".........where ADSL is the only option there are plans to provide an alternative data only service – how the latter will work has not been fully defined by Openreach as yet."

Quote from: sparky on Nov 25, 2020, 16:18:48
I wonder how many home user/landline contracts idnet have?

The Centrex IP solution is a business solution. It will be interesting to see if idnet eventually drops its home/landline users and forces us to go elsewhere or whether they develop a financially viable solution for the home user. There seems to be very few VOIP solutions for the home user at the moment. The odd few that do exist get terrible reviews for service. Cost wise it will have to be equal to or less than existing landline rates.

I see that the first PSTN Exchange to go Stop/Sale is Salisbury at the end of December.
https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/stopsell/stopsell.do (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/stopsell/stopsell.do)

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/wlrwithdrawal.do (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/wlrwithdrawal.do)

Interesting Stuff!

We're not that far from Salisbury so I'm keeping an eye on local media for any hiatus  :D

WRT Centrex....my guess is that we would be offered a VOIP connection on their system at the same cost as current landline rental.
However, there may be lower tier reseller/providers who just will not be getting involved in VOIP directly. I would like to hope they will not just be throwing their customers to the wolves when it comes to telephony - but who knows.

Obviously there are a number of VOIP solutions out there, keeping your current landline number could be a timing issue if you decide to go elsewhere so best done before switch over.
Also switching to VOIP also requires the abilty to configure it, understand it and be prepared to fight with another layer of service provision for something which used to just work.

Quote from: Simon on Nov 25, 2020, 20:08:10
So, at the moment, there's nothing in place for residential landlines users to switch to?  What happens to the elderly, and others not on the internet, who rely on telephone communications?

This is going to be the interesting area - and of course add in those places that do not have broadband or mobile access.
Where the new ADSL product - whatever that will be - is possible then I guess that cutomers will either have to ante up the cost of an upgrade (or maybe they'll get it free with a 0.5mb speed limit or other QOS throttling so it's voice only). Then they'll just need a router and an adapter - and I would suspect that we'll see the arrival of an all in one phone/adapter/router before long - and plug in.
Where there is no broadband of course the 'answer' is that either they can 'use a mobile', or that one the broadband everywhere initiatives will have provided cover in time for the switch over.....but when neither is possible....... :dunno:
Platforms are being erected to ensure maximum observation of porcine aviation :slap:

Quote from: nowster on Nov 25, 2020, 16:53:26
The only reasonable VoIP provider I've found for residential use is www.sipgate.co.uk. You can operate a number as incoming only for free as long as it gets one call every few months.

I have had a sipgate account for some years but never really bothered with it. I think now is the time to try out a few options. OK it'll cost £10 a month for a proper calls package but that's rolling monthly - and right now we're saving money on fuel anyway.

I'll dust off an old mobile and try a couple of apps - Acrobits looks promising as it seems to offer protection against battery drain. Zoiper is another contender as it looks like Sipgate uses Zoiper anyway.

Another option is a £30 ATA adapter, plug in the simple handset phone and see what happens. That looks like it needs a bit of configuring somewhere along the line but should help ease lockdown boredom.

This sounds very good until you have a power cut and then you would lose the facility to make an emergency call out just like you lose your broadband.  :facepalm:

Quote from: Den on Nov 26, 2020, 09:11:58
This sounds very good until you have a power cut and then you would lose the facility to make an emergency call out just like you lose your broadband.  :facepalm:

Methinks a small UPS may be needed... ???

Whatever happens, no doubt it will cost us extra money just to retain a service we've always had, and most of us see no need to change.

Quote from: Den on Nov 26, 2020, 09:11:58
This sounds very good until you have a power cut and then you would lose the facility to make an emergency call out just like you lose your broadband.  :facepalm:

My router and modem share a UPS with a server so that's not a problem for me. :-) As for emergency calls, my mobile is far more convenient as it's virtually always within immediate reach. I would guess the latter is true of most people these days...

Quote from: gizmo71 on Nov 26, 2020, 18:41:01
My router and modem share a UPS with a server so that's not a problem for me. :-) As for emergency calls, my mobile is far more convenient as it's virtually always within immediate reach. I would guess the latter is true of most people these days...

But that's the problem isn't it.  There will always be some areas that do not have mobile signal (in the same way that there are some areas that do not have adequate broadband).  There has to be some way for people in those areas to maintain emergency contact.  In our area we have no mobile signal and can expect at least one electric outage of 12 hours or more per year so it would have to be quite a beefy UPS to maintain connection for that length of time.  Who is going to pay for that in our area where there is a significant proportion of our population living on the basic pension?

It is only a little pinprick in the overall scale of things but quite important to our community.

I really don't like the way technology is going.  You won't be able to buy a car that will go more than 35 miles without a six hour charge after 2030, and now they want to make telecommunication impossible for some!   ::) :rant2: :bawl:

Quote from: Postal on Nov 26, 2020, 19:47:36
There has to be some way for people in those areas to maintain emergency contact.

Does there? Why does there? How many cases per year are there where maintaining the antiquated analogue phone system saves a life during a power cut that would otherwise be lost? Why is it okay for one to be out in the countryside, out of range of a mobile signal and miles from the nearest landline, without a way to "maintain emergency contact"?

I am playing Devil's Advocate a bit :evil: but some really obvious technical solutions exist (like VoIP phones with LiOn batteries good for an hour or two - the user doesn't really need to know how their phone works - I'm sure most have no real idea at present) to a problem which probably doesn't really exist in the first place.

It might be cheaper and simpler to give those who can't use a VoIP phone a flare gun. :P

and I know where I would stick it.  >:D

Quote from: gizmo71 on Nov 26, 2020, 22:00:38Why is it okay for one to be out in the countryside, out of range of a mobile signal and miles from the nearest landline, without a way to "maintain emergency contact"?

Because that is a risk you have chosen to take.

Quote from: gizmo71 on Nov 26, 2020, 22:00:38I am playing Devil's Advocate a bit :evil: but some really obvious technical solutions exist (like VoIP phones with LiOn batteries good for an hour or two - the user doesn't really need to know how their phone works - I'm sure most have no real idea at present) to a problem which probably doesn't really exist in the first place.

When you get round to reading my post you will see that an hour or two won't be sufficient during many of our power cuts.  And I'm waiting for an explanation of how a VOIP phone works if there is no power to the ONT.

Quote from: gizmo71 on Nov 26, 2020, 22:00:38It might be cheaper and simpler to give those who can't use a VoIP phone a flare gun. :P

Devil's advocate or trolling?

I recall both Cameron and May wanting to overhaul our broadband system but they failed to deliver on it. I don't see Johnson's grand plan being any different especially give the current economic circumstances. I'm sure we'll get there eventually but I doubt it'll be within the allotted time-scale. It'll be the same for electric cars and Johnson's vision of banning gas boilers within the next three years which has already been deemed unattainable and removed from his 10 point green plan. They really need to give him something else to occupy his time like LEGO ::)

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Nov 27, 2020, 07:33:50
I recall both Cameron and May wanting to overhaul our broadband system but they failed to deliver on it.....

This time round though the clock is already ticking - and if IDNet are an example then other service providers may well start switching over well before the cutoff date.

Yet another muggers buddle for the UK population to endure.

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Nov 27, 2020, 07:33:50
I recall both Cameron and May wanting to overhaul our broadband system but they failed to deliver on it. I don't see Johnson's grand plan being any different especially give the current economic circumstances. I'm sure we'll get there eventually but I doubt it'll be within the allotted time-scale. It'll be the same for electric cars and Johnson's vision of banning gas boilers within the next three years which has already been deemed unattainable and removed from his 10 point green plan. They really need to give him something else to occupy his time like LEGO ::)

With BoJo's broadband breaking down in the middle of a televised speech it may provide an added impetus to get the election promise fulfilled. 

Voice is just another bit of data nowadays. That's what the bean counters believe.

Quote from: Simon on Nov 26, 2020, 09:53:19
Whatever happens, no doubt it will cost us extra money just to retain a service we've always had, and most of us see no need to change.

I don't use a landline, I have one for my careline which the new versions of work with cellular or IP. I have unlimited texts, calls and data too on my iPhone. I moved on from landlines along time ago really. I don't know that many people who still use them myself.

Things change, Fibre is the way forward with AX routers, 5G and then all that will change again. Keeping up with the changes is better than getting bogged down in the old way of doing things we are told as we are told to open our wallets for new gear it seems. Having 5G where I am means I can have great data transfer rates and it makes my Broadband look slow. I have three UPS's (APC) in case of power cuts, this has all been ongoing slowly for a few years now as I make changes. Best to keep before they grab you the short and curlies and give you a nasty surprise like this, although I wish sometime it would just all slow down, as I'm not sure the changes really make things any better when looking at the the big picture. (apart from faster broadband as more devices slurp it up) and as fibre goes in copper comes out I guess.

Although I don't see any fibre around this way yet just more crosstalk and slower BB speeds on my ECI cab. So yes its all smelling of roses of course and soon my FTTC will be as fast as my old ADSL  ::)

I've never seen the need to spend money "upgrading" something that works perfectly well, just for the sake of having the latest "thing".  My PC is 13 years old, and although I've just had a hard drive failure, it's otherwise still going strong, and boots up and runs about twice as fast as my laptop which is less than half the age of the PC and runs at a crawl most of the time. 

To go back to landlines, I can hear people on the phone perfectly well.  When you listen to people calling in on radio stations, they all seem to use anything but a conventional landlines and the call quality is atrocious, with constant drop outs, and people sounding like they are either taking through a cushion, or under water.  New technology is not always better than old.

Quote from: Simon on Nov 30, 2020, 13:55:11
I've never seen the need to spend money "upgrading" something that works perfectly well, just for the sake of having the latest "thing".

This isn't a case of "for the sake of it", though. It makes no sense to maintain both an anaolgue phone network and digital services when the latter is perfectly capable of providing exactly the same service as the former, with lower overall maintainence costs.

By this logic we would still have analog cellular and TV networks and paying extra to maintain them alongside more modern digital networks.

Never mind the quality, feel the width.

Interesting to read this as I have FTTP with Zen but I moved the landline to IDNet but I also have a monitored alarm that is connected to that so am going to need time to speak to the alarm company about that.

Going to be pretty agitated if I get a communication from IDNet in January or February next year telling me they are pulling the plug.

The Huawei ONTI have has an analogue phone port and it does have battery backup but I understand OR have stopped fitting BBUs on new installs so as has been said, if your power goes out and you've got no mobile you're out of luck, that's of particular issue to the vulnerable and eldlerly of course.

Am probably going to move the number to A&A as my Fritzbox router has a DECT base in it (I'll prob invest in a small APC UPS to connect it to)

Quote from: pctech on Dec 02, 2020, 18:32:49
Am probably going to move the number to A&A as my Fritzbox router has a DECT base in it (I'll prob invest in a small APC UPS to connect it to)

I was looking at something similar and was quite surprised by the fact that I'd need a 1400KVA UPS minumum to power the Billion 8000 router for any length of time - the idea being to use Sipgate plus sip app on mobiles to replace the landline. I guess the solution would be to only power up the kit on APC when you need to use it but for care alarms it is going to be a real issue. My neighbour has one and the other day her landline went down. She said the worst bit was the damn alarm going off every 5 minutes. However, to give them their due OR fixed it the same day.

These 2 documents - and the links they contain as well - are fascinating reading especially when it comes to access to emergency services and power cuts!

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0032/137966/future-fixed-telephone-services.pdf

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/123118/guidance-emergency-access-power-cut.pdf

I wish I had time to read them!  Thanks, though, they may be useful for reference.

I haven't really studied the implications of the switch off because it probably won't effect me in any negative way. My rather limited understanding is ADSL & FTTC are also being switched off so I'm hoping it'll lead to better quality, more affordable broadband. I really don't need a land land for voice calls.

What did occur to me is aside from power outages, how often the replacement service will go down for other reasons. As far as I recall I've only had one loss of voice line in the last 20 or so years but during that time my broadband has gone down hundreds if not thousands of times, usual at night so probably due to maintenance. If that remains the case, it really doesn't bode well for those without mobile phones or people living in a mobile dead spot.

Will this mean there will be no landlines , we keep one phone plugged in in case of power cuts etc, will this now be useless ?  ???

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Dec 03, 2020, 18:54:45
..........As far as I recall I've only had one loss of voice line in the last 20 or so years but during that time my broadband has gone down hundreds if not thousands of times, usual at night so probably due to maintenance. If that remains the case, it really doesn't bode well for those without mobile phones or people living in a mobile dead spot.

In the 20 years we've been in this house we've lost our landline about 10 times. It always comes down to corroded connections, junction boxes full of water, lose connections in the cabinet, OR engineers swapping over lines and so on. All thse create noise which hits the BB hard.
Since the last fix a couple of months back our BB has been up much longer - I the 9 days was about the best. However that doesn't alter the fact that, as you say, BB connections go down far more often than voice connections. It is going to be 'challenging' to say the least. :slap:

Quote from: talos on Dec 04, 2020, 07:15:19
Will this mean there will be no landlines , we keep one phone plugged in in case of power cuts etc, will this now be useless ?  ???

Afraid so, but if you have no mobile signal (or even no mobile) OfCom is expecting your supplier to give you a way to remain in contact for at least an hour according to the documents linked by @robinc.

Quote from: robinc on Dec 04, 2020, 08:00:51
In the 20 years we've been in this house we've lost our landline about 10 times. It always comes down to corroded connections, junction boxes full of water, lose connections in the cabinet, OR engineers swapping over lines and so on. All thse create noise which hits the BB hard.
Since the last fix a couple of months back our BB has been up much longer - I the 9 days was about the best. However that doesn't alter the fact that, as you say, BB connections go down far more often than voice connections. It is going to be 'challenging' to say the least. :slap:

But that's the whole point isn't it?  The fibre connections have a totally different level of reliability as compared with the copper connections between cabinet and property so you will see far fewer internet problems when FTTP is delivered (or at least that is what is being sold to us).

Quote from: Postal on Dec 04, 2020, 13:39:54
But that's the whole point isn't it?  The fibre connections have a totally different level of reliability as compared with the copper connections between cabinet and property so you will see far fewer internet problems when FTTP is delivered (or at least that is what is being sold to us).

The new 'standard' is SOGEA (Single Order General Ethernet Access) or what we now call FTTC. That 'last mile' is still over whatever lumps if metal are under the road/pavement. Therefore we will still have the same issues surrounding old copper connections in cabs for years to come. This opens a can of worms in terms of how long OR will actually carry on fixing old copper connections.

Line rental charges will carry on as before as that is just the cost to the user of providing the link no matter what technology it employs.

No matter what permutation you use it's going to need another bit of kit (VoIP of some sort) in order to use a 'normal' phone if you do not have mobile access. So, yet more cost and something else to plug in on yet another adapter. Having looked at the setup of some of the ATA adapters and VoIP phones I just cannot see how some older/IT challenged customers are going to cope.

Quote from: robinc on Dec 05, 2020, 06:41:22
The new 'standard' is SOGEA (Single Order General Ethernet Access) or what we now call FTTC. That 'last mile' is still over whatever lumps if metal are under the road/pavement. Therefore we will still have the same issues surrounding old copper connections in cabs for years to come. This opens a can of worms in terms of how long OR will actually carry on fixing old copper connections.

Until last month the government pledge was 100% Gigabit connection by 2025 (although the Treasury spending review rolled that back to 85% last month) so "years to come" is perhaps overstating what most consumers will see as it is difficult to see what could be used for Gigabit delivery except for FTTP at the current level of technology.  I'm in no way positing any belief in the Government statements about this subject but it would be good to avoid overstatement on either side of the discussion.  In this case, if the Government target is met and there is deployment at a steady rate from the current ~35% to 85% over half of the population will not be relying on copper by early 2023.  Yes, issues for the other half but not apocalyptic.

Quote from: Postal on Dec 05, 2020, 13:54:25
Until last month the government pledge was 100% Gigabit connection by 2025 (although the Treasury spending review rolled that back to 85% last month) so "years to come" is perhaps overstating what most consumers will see as it is difficult to see what could be used for Gigabit delivery except for FTTP at the current level of technology.  I'm in no way positing any belief in the Government statements about this subject but it would be good to avoid overstatement on either side of the discussion.  In this case, if the Government target is met and there is deployment at a steady rate from the current ~35% to 85% over half of the population will not be relying on copper by early 2023.  Yes, issues for the other half but not apocalyptic.

I live in a typical rural situation, group of houses that has grown a bit over the years from the middle of 20thC to now. Odd short cul-de-sacs have been added at times and services supplied using whatever was being done at the time. During the late 60s and early 70s they used armoured aluminium - ductless - cable due to copper shortages.
Now, I think there's only about 12 houses affected. One of our neighbours had an FTTP connection installed last week. 5 days from holes being cut in pavement - and he's right next to a/the only BT hole in the pavement - to OR engineer walking up and down the road between all the various BT boxes heading to the cab. Given the demographics it is unlikely anyone else is going to be paying for a new FTTP we are looking at either a massive project of digging and installing or a piecemeal scattergun of digging up and installing. I am in a slightly interesting situation in that if they are going to install FTTP they're going to have to go under a block paved driveway as the existing phone line runs on the surface in a beech hedge.
Not quite the same as blowing some new fibre down a nice empty duct.
As part of the remaining n% I will take little comfort from the knowledge that the rest of the UK is OK. However if you multiply that up by a factor of X I hope you'll understand that I take any estimates with a very large pinch of salt - especially given that the country is going to be cash strapped for decades to come while we pay off our covid debts. Given that this process was set in place well before covid I would have thought it would be more realistic to move the end date rather than charge towards it brexit style. Just my 2.5d worth  :)

Quote from: robinc on Dec 06, 2020, 07:55:01
Not quite the same as blowing some new fibre down a nice empty duct.

I assume they will just throw down ethernet cables under rubber running strips which will already be there for us to charge all the eletric cars parked out on the street. :laugh:

 ;D

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Dec 03, 2020, 18:54:45
I haven't really studied the implications of the switch off because it probably won't effect me in any negative way. My rather limited understanding is ADSL & FTTC are also being switched off so I'm hoping it'll lead to better quality, more affordable broadband. I really don't need a land land for voice calls.

What did occur to me is aside from power outages, how often the replacement service will go down for other reasons. As far as I recall I've only had one loss of voice line in the last 20 or so years but during that time my broadband has gone down hundreds if not thousands of times, usual at night so probably due to maintenance. If that remains the case, it really doesn't bode well for those without mobile phones or people living in a mobile dead spot.

I've only seen the PON light on my ONT go Red (meaning no light on the fibre for anyone unaware) about 4 times since it went live in January 2018 and this has been around 12.30-1 a.m. but it has gone for a good 15-20 minutes.

In my own case it prompted me to stop watching Netflix and go to bed but if you did have something like a fall/care alarm dependent on that for an elderly or vulnerable person that's a heck of a long time when a lot could happen.

I would hope ofcom puts pressure for dual signalling paths in these devices before the copper is taken away along with sufficient battery.

My parents are likely to be on overhead copper ADSL for many years to come, with 4Mbps on a good day.

IDNET has been a bit quiet about this since their fanfare announcement. 
Curiously  FTTP  has recently been removed from my upgrade options
Three neighbors have already had fibre installed. Not sure which ISPs.
It will be interesting to see what IDNET's FTTP+Phone upgrade packages cost.
I guess some sort of VOIP adapter would have to be part of the deal?

This is becoming an amusing trend. If your unattainable targets are attainable then reduce them until they become attainable...

QuoteThe government has announced the first stages of its plans to get superfast broadband to the majority of homes in the UK.

Originally it had promised to roll out gigabit-speed broadband to every home in Britain by 2025 but that was reduced to 85% coverage in November.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56414966

From the same article...

QuoteNow that money is beginning to flow, but with Openreach's chief executive emphasising the need for speedy decisions, it seems there's not complete confidence that even the more limited target will be hit.

Six months have elapsed since this topic was first posted along with a few other threads and the only thing that seems clear to me is nobody has a definitive idea of how this will pan out. We don't even know if phone numbers are to be consigned to history let alone the impact on current ISDN/PSTN technology.

I have been watching for information as they have laid fibre outside our houses. Interested as none of us have power or much space where BT originally installed (in the late 1970 early 1980's) the master sockets (by front doors and no power socket near). We are all underground cabled (I am told not in conduit) which should be interesting on both counts. There are many original residents which means they are in there late 70's (as I am) or well into their 80's. This results in a lot of personal and house alarms which if to be kept going in power cuts (there are few here but the only big one since I moved here 3 years ago lasted for nearly 2.5 hrs)would I expect be safest with a form of UPS. Which after the big power cut I have one on my modem and routers as well as others on PC and NAS. Some can deal with this and have the space to do so (if the fibre if installed to a new location to the existing master socket). But to expect many elderly residents to deal with this or the minimal BT fibre box (that provides a limited power back up using rechargeable batteries) from the experience of our parents as they aged to maintain them will be beyond the ability of many just as they may well be more dependent on alarms.
The switch over is progressing at some speed. Now BT can smell big profits its getting a move on compared to how it introduced faster broadband. But there is as yet NO information on anything available.

Alas my village is not on the list for FTTP until 2026. by then I probably wont even care about Fibre tbh. I'll just use a 5G folding iPad or some such magical contraption. My only concern is my careline, but they can probably do a GSM variant I believe, or they will have a new super all singing and all dancing unit that does not need a dial tone but that a person ion their 80's and me in my sixties by then will understand. Its bad enough that I feel like a dinosaur already with some of the new tech which looks more like things designed to empty pockets rather than being useful.

Quote from: Gary on Jul 28, 2021, 10:46:42
Its bad enough that I feel like a dinosaur already with some of the new tech which looks more like things designed to empty pockets rather than being useful.

It's not just me then. The new tech curve seems faster than ever. Either that or my batteries are running down ;D

I think we're all getting that way!   :bawl:

I think the way this is going to work is that BT will be issuing an updated router that incorporates a VOIP phone jack in advance of the cut off.

This will allow push updates for the VOIP config, so that if you decide to continue with a conventional handset/landline number you'll pay more and they'll just configure it for you. Gosh - I wonder if it will cost the same as a landline today? That would be a surprise wouldn't it?

For the rest of the world, I guess it's the old DIY job. Quite frankly I'm gobsmacked at the lack of publicity about this, esp remembering all the noise when analogue TV was switched off.

The bit about VOIP that is of concern is that you have to register the number with the emergency services - presumably before you need them!

Quote from: robinc on Jul 29, 2021, 06:03:41
Quite frankly I'm gobsmacked at the lack of publicity about this, esp remembering all the noise when analogue TV was switched off.

Likewise which is why I'm still somewhat sceptical about the time frame involved. Personally I haven't used our land line to make a call for many years and I'll be glad to see the back of it but the other half of this household needs it because the mother-in-law doesn't have a mobile and can't afford to call our mobiles.

I suspect at least 90% of the population will barely notice the change while the other 10%, who may well be vulnerable in some way, struggle and have to pay more. So nothing new there then!

My careline makes calls, IO dint I use my iPhone. Unlimited Calls and Textx make life so much easier, as well as unlimited data and 5G. All for £20 a month.  EE messed up and I'm glad I got that sim only deal, I wont be changing anytime soon to another company unless unlimited 4G and 5G gets really cheap. The thing is so many older people use landlines, and careline technology is progressing slowly as usual. EE I think are turning off 3G in 2023 (smart meters will have fun when they all turn off 3G) its all going so fast its crazy but I have hit my own brakes.

I keep up with new phones, its my only vice, my iPhone 12 pro is great and its cheaper to sell each year and get a new one than leave it for years but I'm sure even that will stop. I'm bored of new tech, the only thing I added was a Arlo Pro 4 camera for my security and that connects straight to Wi-Fi thankfully. MY Netgear RAX120 router has PMF (protected management frames) so nobody can knock out 2.4G (that's what the camera uses) If they try to jam the camera and they cant get into my LAN either, but still Ive reached a point where I'm happy with what I have and that seems to be a downfall as tech is accelerating so fast (still cant get a PS5) before you know it you are blinking at whatever the hell it is you bought wondering what you do with whatever the hell you just bought, and wondering who told you it was useful in the first place. ;D

My main mobile is a 3G Samsung which I'm told will stop working next year.  I do have a 4G Motorola which is not at all easy to use for receiving phone calls but apps seem to work OK.  It's now on its last legs and I'm thinking of splashing out on a Samsung A21s for £154. 

iDNet are already doing domestic VoIP via Centrex home.  They aren't advertising it since apparently there is a supply chain issue with analogue TAs though most users have given up their old analogue stuff and to moved to IP based kit.

Ex-vat price for Centrex Home is £12.50pm on a 2yr contract including all UK call, single number port and either an IP desktop phone or IP-DECT or an ATA.  If you go for a desktop IP phone, it also needs a PSU at £14 and there is shipping of £10.

I can see why they're going this route as they obviously want to avoid people using random kit bought off flea Bay with all the attendant support issues. 

If you're a heavy landline user I could see this being appealing.  A 40/10 sogea line costs £30 ex vat with another £12.50 ex vat for the phone and all calls.    There is a price increase in there compared to the current all-in price: £51/month inc vat compared to £44.40.  I guess that's the price of progress and it does mean you avoid a lot of the support problems with a DIY setup.

At last!  Something on the BBC about this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58233420

Quote from: Simon on Aug 16, 2021, 21:31:56
At last!  Something on the BBC about this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58233420

That makes for an interesting read, much of which is at odds with my current (admittedly limited) understanding. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Incidentally everyone without exception I've spoken to about this has given me an old fashioned look and I've had to resort to a frantic Google for backup. It seems to be a rather well kept secret!

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Aug 17, 2021, 01:53:52
That makes for an interesting read, much of which is at odds with my current (admittedly limited) understanding. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Incidentally everyone without exception I've spoken to about this has given me an old fashioned look and I've had to resort to a frantic Google for backup. It seems to be a rather well kept secret!

There was bit in the Daily Fail the other day as well, so hopefully word will start to get around.

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Aug 17, 2021, 01:53:52
That makes for an interesting read, much of which is at odds with my current (admittedly limited) understanding. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Incidentally everyone without exception I've spoken to about this has given me an old fashioned look and I've had to resort to a frantic Google for backup. It seems to be a rather well kept secret!

The BBC article seems to imply Openreach are transitioning to VoIP, but as I understand it Openreach are not moving to VoIP, they are just stopping the sale and supply of PSTN and becoming a data only provider, so will stop doing any form of voice call service come 2025 and will not offer a VoIP product.  It will be down to the ISP to supply a voice service using VoIP to their own specification.  At this stage Openreach are involved in the various switch over trials, but they are not supplying the VoIP service, this is the reason why the analogue voice socket on FTTP ONTs are no longer used, and you end up with a second place to plug in a phone on the ISP supplied router.

I too am sceptical this switchover will be achieved by 2025 given the lack of public awareness, and this is different to digital TV.  Digital TV had the lure of more channels and better picture quality so there was an incentive for people to upgrade and at around the same time flat screen TVs and DVDs were becoming popular meaning people had a reason to spend and then got by default digital ready TVs.  There is absolutely no incentive for anyone to move a landline to VoIP.  Despite claims of "HD Voice" on VoIP I've yet to hear anything sounding any better.  Pricing isn't that much cheaper, reliability will only be worse given a lot more to go wrong, there will be compatibility issues to sort out (alarm systems and so on), and new kit to install, all to get something not really as good as what someone already had.  It will be an uphill struggle I think.

I listen to a lot of radio, and when people phone in, nine times out of ten, the voice quality of the caller is appalling.  I'm not sure what new technology they are using, but callers using a basic phone always sound better.

This is in the BBC report caught my eye:

Old landline phones will still work after the network changes, however.
Handsets will not need replacing either - existing phones will be connected to a different system behind the scenes.

Does this mean that ISPs will try to sell us VOIP kit or services which we will not necessarily need?

Interestingly our exchange, Oswestry, isn't listed. But the main Shropshire paper was reporting some time ago we and other small towns were to be trial areas and indeed fibre has been installed (not to houses) over much of the town now. On the BT site it listed us as being 2025 so it could be fibre is to sit there for years, someone was telling porkies to or were invented by the local paper?

Quote from: Terryphi on Aug 17, 2021, 13:44:53
This is in the BBC report caught my eye:

Old landline phones will still work after the network changes, however.
Handsets will not need replacing either - existing phones will be connected to a different system behind the scenes.

Does this mean that ISPs will try to sell us VOIP kit or services which we will not necessarily need?

I could be wrong but I can't help feeling the majority of people who will need the most additional kit will be those that can least it afford and many of them probably don't understand what's about to happen. At this point in time, I certainly don't.

In my view this change necessitates a visit from an OpenReach engineer to every home prior to switch off along with the kit required to facilitate the change to any existing service, all provided free of charge.

Unless I've missed it, we're not on the long list either. (The FTTP stop sell. You can find it by clicking through the links in the BBC news article.) This is a decent sized city. We do have a lot of City Fibre work going on here so maybe that's got something to do with it?

I have no answers but this appears to suggest in order to switch off PSTN, every line will need to be fully FTTP.

QuoteThe programme will mean homes and businesses won't be able to buy copper broadband if they are upgrading, regrading or switching telecoms provider, and instead will only be able to order fibre-to-the-premises (FTTP or full-fibre) broadband networks – and voice services will be an add-on to broadband rather than a service in its own right.

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252500643/Openreach-extends-analogue-phone-programme-switch-off-to-further-700000-homes-and-businesses

I switched to FTTP with IDNet today (Faversham, North Kent), and changed my landline number to VoIP. I bought a VoIP adapter to keep my old phone setup (which includes a TrueCall call blocker) and ported my old number.

Using Sipgate's (http://"https://www.sipgate.co.uk/") VoIP service on PAYG, there's no line fee, and as I rarely called out on the landline, it's almost free (although it cost £30 to port the old number). Dropping the landline fee means I'm getting more than twice the old speed (going up to Ultrafast Basic at ~160mbps) for roughly the same cost.

Quote from: dlorde on Aug 18, 2021, 19:52:36
I switched to FTTP with IDNet today (Faversham, North Kent), and changed my landline number to VoIP. I bought a VoIP adapter to keep my old phone setup (which includes a TrueCall call blocker) and ported my old number.

Using Sipgate's (http://"https://www.sipgate.co.uk/") VoIP service on PAYG, there's no line fee, and as I rarely called out on the landline, it's almost free (although it cost £30 to port the old number). Dropping the landline fee means I'm getting more than twice the old speed (going up to Ultrafast Basic at ~160mbps) for roughly the same cost.

Have you actually used the new phone service yet?  Just wondering what the call quality is like.

Quote from: dlorde on Aug 18, 2021, 19:52:36
I switched to FTTP with IDNet today (Faversham, North Kent), and changed my landline number to VoIP. I bought a VoIP adapter to keep my old phone setup (which includes a TrueCall call blocker) and ported my old number.

Using Sipgate's (http://"https://www.sipgate.co.uk/") VoIP service on PAYG, there's no line fee, and as I rarely called out on the landline, it's almost free (although it cost £30 to port the old number). Dropping the landline fee means I'm getting more than twice the old speed (going up to Ultrafast Basic at ~160mbps) for roughly the same cost.

There's more useful information there than I've managed to find since I first heard about it ;D

Thanks for posting :)

I don't really want to be messing about using different providers for different bits and pieces.  I'm hoping, when the time comes, there will be a simple all-in-one package to switch to, like I am on at the moment with IDNet.

Quote from: Simon on Aug 18, 2021, 20:00:44
Have you actually used the new phone service yet?  Just wondering what the call quality is like.

For Sipgate and most VoIP the call quality is comparable to analogue (unless were on a fairly rubbish or long line in which case it will sound better), Sipgate Basic don't as yet support any HD Codecs, but that is often a mute point anyway as you need the other end to support the exact same Codec, plus with PSTN break in/out the call quality gets the lowest common denominator of the PSTN network. 

I get mobile calls diverted to my Sipgate number at the moment and the call quality does sound good but it is only using the G.711 codec covering a range of 300-3400Hz, with that codec being from 1970s and at around 64kbit/sec uncompressed.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.711  It's free to use as out of patent so that makes it popular today  :)

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Aug 18, 2021, 00:16:22
I have no answers but this appears to suggest in order to switch off PSTN, every line will need to be fully FTTP.
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252500643/Openreach-extends-analogue-phone-programme-switch-off-to-further-700000-homes-and-businesses

It doesn't require FTTP.  There will be two kinds of switch off, one is PSTN (analogue telephones), the other is copper.  Copper will be around for quite some time until everyone is on FTTP, and those still on copper will continue to receive their ADSL or VDSL data, and will run their VoIP over that.  Openreach have some very low data products for people not wanting Internet but still wanting a phone line and at lower prices, think it is 500Kbit/sec, enough for voice calls but too little to do much on the Internet.

Quote from: Simon on Aug 18, 2021, 20:00:44
Have you actually used the new phone service yet?  Just wondering what the call quality is like.

No, I've not used it in anger - only just to verify it was working, phoning myself from my mobile.

Quote from: Simon on Aug 18, 2021, 20:40:21
I don't really want to be messing about using different providers for different bits and pieces.  I'm hoping, when the time comes, there will be a simple all-in-one package to switch to, like I am on at the moment with IDNet.

I hope we just get switched and we hardly notice the difference. (Except that they will have told us it's switching.)

I've had a free SIPGate incoming number for a few years. I've never had any problems with it. It's routed in to my Asterisk server which has a few SIP phones hanging off it. The call quality is identical to a landline.

Quote from: Simon on Aug 16, 2021, 21:31:56
At last!  Something on the BBC about this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58233420

"But Ben Wood, of CCS Insight, says: "For the vast majority of people, the landline is now just an annoying tax they have to pay when they want internet access.""

We will still have to pay line rental (or most of it anyway). Line rental pays for the repair and maintenance of the cable and although fibre should be more resilient than copper it can still suffer damage from tree roots and errant diggers. The only alternative to line rental is 'pay at time of need' which would be horribly expensive.

Getting rid of the voice service aspect will reduce the line rental slightly but only by a couple of quid and you might find you have to pay that to a VoIP provider anyway.

dlorde,
What did the transition to FTTP involve physically? For instance, was it necessary to dig up your drive? Does FTTP connect to the existing internal wiring in the property?

Quote from: Terryphi on Aug 21, 2021, 13:18:52
dlorde,
What did the transition to FTTP involve physically? For instance, was it necessary to dig up your drive? Does FTTP connect to the existing internal wiring in the property?

It varies so much it doesn't matter what happens with someone else's install, yours may be completely different.  If your telephone cable comes from overhead poles that is how they will give you FTTP.  If your telephone cable comes up from underground near the house, that is how they will usually install FTTP.  Typically underground cable is laid in pipes (ducting), so you can easily add other cables, they push rods through then pull back a blue rope, then can pull through a new cable.  Sometimes these pipes have become blocked with dirt or have collapsed, this may mean digging up the road, pavement or somewhere on your property to fix the problem.  Sometimes cable is DIG, direct in ground.  So no pipe to allow adding more cables, in this case they will need to dig up drive or garden perhaps.

FTTP doesn't carry electricity, it is just light, and so there is nothing to connect to existing wiring.  You may continue to receive a telephone line via the existing copper wires, or the master socket becomes dead, and you need to treat the phone socket they put on the router as the new master socket for your telephones.

Quote from: L2020 on Aug 23, 2021, 13:47:39You may continue to receive a telephone line via the existing copper wires, or the master socket becomes dead, and you need to treat the phone socket they put on the router as the new master socket for your telephones.

If IDNET are going to a VOIP based system as preparation for the whole country having FTTP then even if your communication with the outside world comes down copper wires to your house your existing phone service will no longer work and you will need to have a router with an external adaptor or built in phone socket.  Your existing master socket will no longer work for voice calls even though your are connected through a copper phone wire.

That then brings a trap for the unwary.  Many people now use dedicated VOIP providers like Sipgate as they usually work out cheaper than the services provided by ISPs/major telecomms providers.  You can port your existing number to the VOIP provider but unless the losing supplier (in our case IDNET) has the right processes in place, porting the number may cause a cease of your existing phone connection and with it your internet service.  Just another thing to watch out for in the murky underworld of internet providers and connections.

Quote from: Postal on Aug 23, 2021, 15:24:25
That then brings a trap for the unwary.  Many people now use dedicated VOIP providers like Sipgate as they usually work out cheaper than the services provided by ISPs/major telecomms providers.  You can port your existing number to the VOIP provider but unless the losing supplier (in our case IDNET) has the right processes in place, porting the number may cause a cease of your existing phone connection and with it your internet service.  Just another thing to watch out for in the murky underworld of internet providers and connections.

I've read that given that scenario it's also possible you may lose the ability to retain your phone number. I have no idea how true it is, I'm still trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.

This of course had to happen sooner or later - fills me with confidence for the future  :dunno:

https://www.theregister.com/2021/09/02/uk_voip_telcos_revil_ransom/

I wonder if I may add to this thread regarding the proposed VOIP changes in 2025.

I'm a long standing subscriber to IDNet and did call IDNet a few weeks ago to ask what was planned in the run up to 2025.  It did, initially, strike me that I was asking about something that was far from finalised however I was put through to Steve Waters who was well and truly clued up (so much so that I had a bit of trouble keeping up with much of the terminology).

The upshot seemed to me to be that, at this point in time, I could upgrade from basic ADSL to Fibre To The Cabinet and could order new VOIP phones to use with my "landline" but that the cost for sufficient new instruments to replace the existing cordless and corded in my home was quite substantial. I gathered that the new phones would plug in to the router (be that the existing one or a new one if required ... more expense).

The possibility of using my existing cordless and corded phones seemed to revolve around provision of an adaptor box but there seemed to be a slight element of uncertainty surrounding this option.

I left the matter in abeyance and hoped it would all go away - but I'm not sure that it will.

Today my next door neighbour (who has FTTC) and was with TalkTalk until recently told me that his new provider (Sky) has given him a new router into which he has simply plugged his existing corded/cordless phones - he no longer plugs the phone(s) into the old BT box as he did before. No adaptor box was needed and it all works as before  i.e he's still got a landline with dial tone. The changeover from TalkTalk to Sky was, for him at least, seemingly uneventful.

My question is - if Sky can come up with a simple and painless transfer from the old landline arrangement  ... to the new VOIP arrangementthen why is the IDNet procedure less so?

I've decided to simply ignore the matter until such time as it all appears to be more straightforward.  I'd much prefer not to have to change provider as life with IDNet is so simple at the moment and even if I do pay a bit more I'm happy with that and am hoping they'll contact me at some point to tell me how easy it will be to change to VOIP.

Is that wishful thinking?  :whistle:

After a lot of research and some discussion we've decided to ditch our land line.

I suspect that's the way many are going.
Up until recently it seemed as necessary as having mains gas, electric and drainage but, of course, in reality a land line is, for loads of people, nothing like as significant nowadays. I havent worked out if doing away with it does actually mean you save the full land-line costs that I currently pay. If it did then that must surely offset the additional costs of making more mobile calls, even with me being on PAYG at 3 pence per minute. But I suspect it's not that simple.

I don't have a good mobile signal at home, so ditching my landline isn't really an option for me at the moment.  Besides, I like my phone number, and would want to migrate that to any new service when the time comes. 

Quote from: stan on Sep 20, 2021, 14:42:48
The upshot seemed to me to be that, at this point in time, I could upgrade from basic ADSL to Fibre To The Cabinet and could order new VOIP phones to use with my "landline" but that the cost for sufficient new instruments to replace the existing cordless and corded in my home was quite substantial. I gathered that the new phones would plug in to the router (be that the existing one or a new one if required ... more expense).

The possibility of using my existing cordless and corded phones seemed to revolve around provision of an adaptor box but there seemed to be a slight element of uncertainty surrounding this option.

Today my next door neighbour (who has FTTC) and was with TalkTalk until recently told me that his new provider (Sky) has given him a new router into which he has simply plugged his existing corded/cordless phones.

My question is - if Sky can come up with a simple and painless transfer from the old landline arrangement  ... to the new VOIP arrangement then why is the IDNet procedure less so?

If you take the bones out of this, IDNet are saying that you can install an ATA box which will plug in to a network point on your router. This just handles the conversion to VOIP. An upgrade to FTTC will need a new router into which you would be able to plug your phone directly (it incorporates an ATA box).

This is just like the old days of switching to digital TV. Everyone started off with a Freeview box=ATA then TVs came out with it built in.

All that has happened to your neighbour is that Sky have provided a new router with the ATA gubbins built in.

From what I gather from earlier posts IDNet are concerned to make sure that folks do not go off and buy some cr*ppy old ATA box of fleabay and than expect them to help if it doesn't work. I do not know if they are planning to allow you to buy an 'approved' ATA box from them or whether they've decided to drop the idea and just go to 'needs new router' which may be the less problematic solution long term.

Having said that, my mobile supports Voice over Wifi and 4G Calling (LTE). I have found that Vioice over Wifi (VOIP) is a bit rough whereas LTE is crystal clear. The good bit is that whilst our normal 2G signal is a bit poor, 4G is good and that is what is used for LTE.

I still have huge concerns the a lot of older folks are just not going to be able to manage this switch over, especially with the emergency services address registration providing a new scammers' honey pot.

I'm grateful for anything that fleshes out the, rather vague, position Idnet are maintaining at the moment. I would have thought customers might have been a little better informed in order to outline (in simple terms for the benefit of their less tech savvy users) what might be available to them and giving them the opportunity to make an early upgrade if such a thing was readily available.
So thank you Robin for the reply.

You'll need a VoIP FXS (Foreign Exchange Subscriber) box which will convert from VoIP to analogue telephone. It also needs to generate the ringing current. Many use the US wiring system and have RJ11 sockets. You'd need to use an adapter to convert to BT wiring and also provide the necessary ring capacitor that many UK phones need.

Note that the ATA (Analogue Terminal Adapter) may only have the capacity to provide ringing current to a lower number of phones than a proper exchange line, meaning that not all phones may ring on an extension system.

They very often need carefully setting up to match the impedance characteristics that the UK spec phone needs so that it doesn't cause echo on the call. This is the most problematic aspect with off the shelf kit. Most stuff out there is designed for the US market which has a different setup.

Why can't they just leave things alone?  This is like saying they're going to change the every day light bulb and you're going to need a degree in engineering to work the new ones.  A telephone is a basic necessity.  I hope this changeover isn't going to be as complicated as it sounds. 

I'm genuinely pleased to have had some responses to my post and I've read "nowster"s reply but a litlle bit of despair has returned.

I'm 70 years of age and not senile - but not tech savvy beyond the basic stuff.  I've had computers since the year 2000 and have got mobile phones and can even claim to have worked for Post Office Telephones in the City of London in the late 1960s fixing phones with dials!!!

But "nowster" speaks of things that, frankly, not everyone is going to understand.  There are people (probably people of my age and older) who haven't mastered the technology (and the terminolgy that goes with it) which others take for granted. It can be slightly irritating to have to ask an advisor to explain what this or that acronym stands for.  When I spoke to Steve Waters it was clear HE knew what he was talking about  ....  but he assumed that I, also, was on the same level of understanding hence me needing to ask the meaning of numerous phrases and acronyms that meant nothing to me.  I'm a customer, not an IT technician.

My point at the outset was that I thought IDNet should be making some sort of initial contact with their DOMESTIC customers (all of them, not just the clever ones) .... [and please note I didn't say there that they should be reaching out to their customers  :)] ..... and should be explaining, in words of one syllable if need be, what is proposed and what is likely to be required in terms of line upgrades or replacement routers or new equipment in the home and the likely cost implications too.

Apologies if the first signs of frustrations are creeping in.

I don't think we need to panic about this just yet, and I would hope that IDNet will be more forthcoming with information as the time approaches for the changes, which I believe isn't going to be for another few years. 

It won't be long before we won't be able to buy a proper car any more either.  At least not one that does more than 35 miles before it needs plugging in for six hours.  I know that's a wild exaggeration, but the point is, there was a time when new technology made things better.  Now, all it seems to do is make our lives more difficult.

Or, am I just getting old?

I suspect we're both getting old (probably at the same pace too).

I think what resurrected the topic for me was when my neighbour recently showed me his new router and showed me his existing phones plugged into it and said how straightforward it was ... no engineer visit, no terchnical terms, he was simply told to plug the phone into the router socket instead of the BT socket ... and that was that.  And I'm contrasting that with the initial calls to IDNet when the ladies I spoke to were most definitely not clued up and needed to pass over to Steve Waters and that was going from one extreme to the other - but the supply of new VOIP instruments wasn't straightforward and the alternative of an ATA (adaptor box to allow me to use my existing phones) wasn't straightforward either.

I was struck by the cost of new IP phones too.  I can't remember now how much but to replace half a dozen cordless phones and a base station (plus it's respective power supply which doesn't come with it)  mean't I need to send the Mrs out on the streets and sell my prized collection of Ming vases. And I bet it's not just a matter of plugging them in and they'll work straight away - life's never that easy.

And now I read what "nowster" has written and that didn't make it sound any easier to grasp.

Apparently it's beneficial for me to buy any new IP phones direct from IDNet because they need to be "set up" or "pre-configured" before I can use them.  I don't disbelieve that coz I don't know any better - if that's what needs to happen then that's what needs to happen ... but I confess it sounds ridiculously complicated to have to configure a perishing phone before I can use it at home. I Googled it and it got so involved and was the cause of so much dispute and disagreement that I gave up trying to make sense of it.  There's an equal amount of technical debate concerning the ATA adaptor boxes too (as "nowster" touched on earlier.)

If it means anything to anyone the router I have here at home is a Billion  Bipac   8800 AXL R2


Other contributors to this topic have spoken about SIPGATE.  Well, to be honest, I didn't know what SIPGATE was until I Googled it and having Googled it I'm darn sure I don't need to complicate my life by entering to some additional contract with an independant firm in order to provide me with a landline service which I already have.  And I don't want to hear how advanced the SIPGATE service is and how many advanced facilities it offers me coz I neither want nor need them.

The prime reason I've been with IDNet since 2008 is the ease of contact with them.  A simple phone call and I'm usually through to someone in the UK who can sort me out. It's not coz they're cheaper than anyone else ... I'm prepared to pay more than my neighbour who was with TalkTalk and is now with Sky because I don't want a huge organization passing me round the universe - but my neighbour does seem to have had life made easy for him during the move away from one to the other. He said the hardest part was getting a new email address notified to his contacts.

Apologies again for the rant.

Quote from: Simon on Aug 16, 2021, 21:31:56
At last!  Something on the BBC about this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58233420

Besides landline phones, lots of systems currently rely on the PSTN, including:

home burglar alarms and security systems
public traffic lights
cash machines
railway signals
motorway signs
And they will all have to switch to fully digital alternatives.     ::)

Sounds very well planned to me!   ;D

One hopes that when this starts to roll out properly there will be something you can just put next to the current master socket which you can then wire your existing extension wiring to.

Setting up a SIP ATA is not too much different to setting up a DSL modem: user, password, server address, and possibly a couple of other setting choices.

I hope they make it simple for non techies like me. If I cant just plug it in Ill be lost. And it needs to be able to run the system I have now, Eg  answer Mc , amplifier ( for my missus who is deaf ) call blocker with caller display etc.

:-\

Yes, a call blocker is essential.  Imagine the fun the scammers could have with this?  :facepalm:

Following on from my earlier mention of my neighbour and his new Sky "Superfast" contract (which I believe is for 18 months) and having looked at their advertising online I can see what "robinc" was saying about their router having an ATA box built in - they refer to it in black and white.

"Talos" has just mentioned features that he hopes will be available with any new system.  I can only add that, when speaking to Steve Waters and looking at the specification of the VOIP phones that will be available, it looks as thought they would carry out any task asked of them ... to say that they were full of advanced features would, to me at least, be an understatement. Far more advanced than I would ever need.

But as for the more simple option of plugging our existing phones in to some supplementary box of tricks (which I guess is what they're calling an ATA) I have no idea.

We all realise that the apparent cut-off date is December 2025 ... four years away.  When you put it like that we might wonder what we're worrying about - so maybe the powers that be at IDNet consider it too early to be telling customers what's what - and I imagine whatever they did say could all change by then. But, apparently, lots of business users are already hooked up to the new arrangement and it would seem obvious that ISPs would want to get geared up well before the cut-off date so I still think it would be nice to be kept a liitle better informed.

Does anyone at IDNet get to see these discussions?

IDNet do have access to the forums, and they have occasionally corresponded.

 :thumb:

Lyndsey Fussel, Ofcom's networks and communications group director was on Radio 4's consumer programme 'You and Yours' just a few minutes ago.

A very confidently spoken lady she has assured us all that by 2025 no-one should be left without a landline of one sort or another to use in case of emergency and that the move to VOIP is set in stone and going ahead no matter what.

She made the case for ultimately getting rid of copper due to it's age and fragility and sounded supremely confident that the swap to VOIP should just be a case of plugging our phones in to our routers and all will be well.

There was mention made of customers in remote areas who were concerned about the loss of a landline phone (which, as we know, receives its power from a central source in the exchange) and who had difficulty in getting a reply from BT when wanting to ask what was planned for them ...  and, following intervention from the programme's representatives, were suddenly told they could have a back up battery for their phone in cases of a power cut.

So, fortunately, we can rest assured there won't be a problem because the companies who provide service to customers will, in one way or another, overcome the problems of care-lines and alarms and traffic lights and all the other paraphernalia that relies on landlines.

Happy days.

We are classed as in remote area,(3 miles from Cardigan  :dunno:) all wiring telephone and elec are on overhead cables.  cant even get decent mobile coverage, so be interesting to see how its done.

I expect the lady will suddenly find an irrepressible job offer comes up around 2024 :)

Quote from: J!ll on Sep 22, 2021, 10:05:40
Besides landline phones, lots of systems currently rely on the PSTN, including:

home burglar alarms and security systems
public traffic lights
cash machines
railway signals
motorway signs
And they will all have to switch to fully digital alternatives.     ::)

We have been taking intruder alarms and security systems off PSTN for ages now.

Even BT Redcare has changed with the primary on your WiFi and the secondry over a mobile network.

FWIW I see Zen are now offering "Digital Voice".  This is a bundle with 1,000-minutes monthly for mobiles or landlines.  £7/month although it's not clear if that's vat inclusive.  To be honest it looks a decent offer, although at present it appears limited to those on "full fibre" - presumably fibre to the home.

https://www.zen.co.uk/phone/digital-voice (https://www.zen.co.uk/phone/digital-voice)

If you migrate to Zen they offer a router which is one of the FritzBox range, most, if not all of which include a built in ATA.  Fritz 7590 UK version £174 @ Amazon, although I think Zen offer a 7530.  Worth noting Zen are an official AVM reseller, so the tech support *should* be pretty decent.  I doubt it would be in the iDNet league though given recent reports.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AVM-FRITZ-Box-7590-Version/dp/B085TQNWN4/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2HFD6KSSVDXIC&dchild=1&keywords=fritzbox+7590&qid=1632649458&sprefix=Frtizbox%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExNllJVUROQzlYVUMmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAwMDczODIyWVA5U1daMFdRS0haJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1MDAwNzUxVktLREpKNFpPSEEmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl (https://www.amazon.co.uk/AVM-FRITZ-Box-7590-Version/dp/B085TQNWN4/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2HFD6KSSVDXIC&dchild=1&keywords=fritzbox+7590&qid=1632649458&sprefix=Frtizbox%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExNllJVUROQzlYVUMmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAwMDczODIyWVA5U1daMFdRS0haJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA1MDAwNzUxVktLREpKNFpPSEEmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl)

https://en.avm.de/products/fritzbox/ (https://en.avm.de/products/fritzbox/)

I've always had the impression that Zen were one of the better ones.  Trustpilot shows them in a pretty good light although, obviously enough, not without it's detractors.  But "ISP Review" has a number of people saying it's not as good as it used to be.

To be honest, I've said how my neighbour has been pleased  with his experience with Sky so far but they don't have perfect reviews - but with a company as big as that I guess they're not gonna please everyone.  I

I'd not seriously thought about leaving IDNet in the last 13 years - and for one main reason .... the ability to ring up and speak to someone straightaway if I have a query (and, over the years it's often been Brian wgho answers the phone). 

Having had experience with BT passing me round the globe and then returning me back to where I started, I'd be fearful of going with them.
I've got a severe aversion to TalkTalk which goes back a long way and Virgin Media are also on my list of organizations never to return to.

I'll sit tight and carry on carrying on and hope it all comes out in the wash.

Zen are currently offering some very attractive looking full fibre packages. If they are available to the new property when we move house I might be tempted.

Regrettably I live in an area that doesn't allow full fibre and have seen no suggestion it's on its way.

I still only have ADSL so even FTTC would speed things up a bit.... but I'm not complaining about the present speed as it serves my purpose. But I would like to know that IDNet have plans to contact us domestic users to keep us informed.

At present I have BB+Phone with iDNet, but their VoIP offer is likely to put me off.  I'm not a heavy user so I could buy a Grandstream 801 ATA for some £40 outright, from a proper supplier and go to someone like Sipgate or Voipfone on a PAYG system which would probably suit me.

In fact I have a spare base station so I could probably give either a trial without affecting my landline number. 

None of this is likely to be urgent since the changeover is not supposed to be until 2025 and given real world scenarios it may not even be that soon.

..........  " At present I have BB+Phone with iDNet, but their VoIP offer is likely to put me off. " ............

I'm not entirely sure I know exactly what VOIP packages the IDNet website is offering to residential customers.  I've never been able to go straight to the relevant bit and it takes me a while to find, what I believe is, the page that refers to domestic users.  Most seems to be aimed at business users.

I'm assuming IDNet don't have a published / advertised option whereby they supply an ATA such as that mentioned by "Tacitus" and would offer help or support getting it working? 

I guess I would need to upgrade to FTTC (which is available to me here) and isn't a problem ... but I haven't grasped the basic principles regarding whether or not I would still pay for the landline rental and call package that I presently have. And if I didn't have to have the aforementioned line rental arrangement, then how would I pay for any landline calls I make?  None of this is clear to me from reading the stuff on the website.

As mentioned upthread, I contacted iDNet and they are already doing domestic VoIP via Centrex home although they aren't advertising it at present.

The prices I was quoted are:

Ex-vat price for Centrex Home is £12.50pm on a 2yr contract including all UK call, single number port and either an IP desktop phone or IP-DECT or an ATA.  If you go for a desktop IP phone, it also needs a PSU at £14 and there is shipping of £10.

So you would have a choice of IP phone, IP-DECT base station, or an ATA (Grandstream or Cisco, no idea which).  Each of these would come ready configured for you to plug and play. 

In practice you can already do VoIP since you have a broadband connection.  The main thing is whether your ISP is prepared to offer it on other than Fibre to the home.

Ta for the clarification above.  :thumb:

Because I'm a bit thick I'm not entirely sure if the options above mean that my present phone package (line rental and inclusive calls, which cost £138.60 inc. VAT)  remain and the option for Centrex Home @£12.50 plus VAT is on top. Obviously I would need to pay more for FTTC to replace my present ADSL.

I wonder why this is not all spelled out for us on the website?  I would have thought people would like to know which model of VOIP phone or which ATA box would be supplied ..... just so we can have a look to see what we're getting.

Quote from: stan on Sep 26, 2021, 13:56:46
Ta for the clarification above.  :thumb:

Because I'm a bit thick I'm not entirely sure if the options above mean that my present phone package (line rental and inclusive calls, which cost £138.60 inc. VAT)  remain and the option for Centrex Home @£12.50 plus VAT is on top. Obviously I would need to pay more for FTTC to replace my present ADSL.

I wonder why this is not all spelled out for us on the website?  I would have thought people would like to know which model of VOIP phone or which ATA box would be supplied ..... just so we can have a look to see what we're getting.

Like I said they're not advertising it since there are currently problems with supply of ATAs. There may well be an element of waiting to see what others do.

In your case, you would get Broadband via a SOGEA line and then the Centrex/VoIP would be on top.  Your current line rental and calls would cease. 

By my calculations that would be (say):

40/10 SOGEA line @ £30 ex vat plus £12.50 ex vat for the VoIP phone and all calls/number port etc.   Add in the vat and you have £50.40pm  Faster broadband would cost  proportionately more. I'm currently paying £44.40pm for what amounts to the same, so there's a £6.00pm increase.   

Since I don't use the landline a great deal, it doesn't look very appealing and I'd rather pay more for a faster connection and move the VoIP to Sipgate/Voipfone/whoever on a PAYG basis.  No point in doing that at present since my line won't support any faster.   

The SOGEA prices were visible on the website, but they seem to have gone AWOL.....

Mmmmm ....  Thanks for taking the time, Tacitus. Appreciated.

Gotta be honest £50.40 per month is not giving me warm and pleasing feelings at the moment.

If I look at what Sky offers it would seem it would cost me either £28 or £30 (depending on which of the two available options was chosen) inc. VAT with a router/hub included (the one that has the ATA built in). 

I just checked and the Sky VOIP provision is free with Superfast etc but you pay for any calls you make at 20p per minute (recently increased from 16 ppm). They call the package 'Free VOIP' or somesuch and don't make it especially clear about the 20p per minute bit without you digging deeper but it is called "Pay As You Go" so I guess the clue is in the name. Even so, given the limited use I currently make of the landline for calls, a saving of £20 a month on Broadband is not to be sneezed at and you could use the Sky VOIP service for incoming calls on your existing home phone/s and use your mobile for outgoing (especially seeing as many people now have an inclusive calls package).

The other way of approaching it is to ask if I really need a landline for landline calls?  Increasingly I think maybe not. It's just a convenience.

I believe I could keep my IDNet email address, which is a bonus, although I do also have a Hotmail email address which could be utilised if the need arose.

As I've said all along I wouldn't want to leave - and we've not reached that point yet - but seeing how satisfied my next door neighbour is with his Sky Broadband and VOIP phone it's something to think about.

Quote from: stan on Sep 26, 2021, 17:31:49
Mmmmm ....  Thanks for taking the time, Tacitus. Appreciated.

No problem.

Quote from: stan on Sep 26, 2021, 17:31:49Gotta be honest £50.40 per month is not giving me warm and pleasing feelings at the moment.

TBH I think that once full fibre with its greater reliability becomes the norm, outfits like iDNet are going to be squeezed.  For corporates and SMEs that need the support and technical back-up with instant repsonse they will find a market.  Greater reliability of the connection means the home user will have less need of them and may well not be prepared to pay the extra.  I don't mind extra for peace of mind especially with VoIP, but there is a limit.

Like others I'm not really keen on splitting the package and having one supplier for VoIP and another for broadband.  Voipfone got hit with a major DDOS attack which kept them more or less out of action for a couple of days.  They recovered but they seem to have been a bit short on protection from such attacks.  No doubt that has been remedied but there's a lot of cowboys around....

^^^^^   All noted with interest.

I was quick to point out that, on the face of it, Sky Broadband with their VOIP phone facility  ( It's actually called Sky Talk - Pay As You Go and also goes under the nomenclature Internet Calls  )  .....  is considerably cheaper than what we're asked to pay for VOIP service at IDNet, but it's also only fair to point out that if you look on the Sky Community forum thingy there are twenty pages of instances where people are saying "my landline doesn't work" and there are volunteer assistants on the forum to point the users to this or that remedy or to escalate the complaint to Sky themselves who, apparently, intervene to assist.

I would imagine Sky have an infinitely higher number of customers compared to IDNet hence there's gonna be more complaints aired in public but I feel quite confident in hoping that if IDNet customers had a problem with their VOIP service failing then IDNet technicians would go out of their way to rectify ASAP and I suppose if we were looking for some sort of justification to remain where we were - and pay the extra - then that would give us reason to remain.

iDNET simply bolting on a Centrex VOIP package might explain some of the price difference as there will be two profit margins built into their price.

Quote from: sn on Sep 27, 2021, 09:51:48
iDNET simply bolting on a Centrex VOIP package might explain some of the price difference as there will be two profit margins built into their price.

I think you're assuming they are simply a reseller for someone else - at least so far as VoIP is concerned.  TBH I don't really understand the ins and outs of SIP/VoIP and internet telephony in general.  I imagine software is available so iDNet could buy in a VoIP server and run the whole thing themselves.  OTOH given the complexity they may feel it's not worth the bother and propose to hive it off elsewhere.  Dunno..... :dunno:

Voipfone were regarded as one of the better VoIP suppliers and they got taken out by a DDOS attack a few weeks back, something which blew a hole in some of their advertising claims.   There was a thread about it over on the Voip forum on TBB. 

The comments on this thread have been useful and informative but, to my way of thinking, do highlight the uncertainty which us customers feel right now.

I guess there could be a number of reasons for the lack of updates including an apparent shortage of equipment (the chips problem maybe?)  maybe a shortage of staff experienced with this new technology? plus other stuff we don't know about. But at least we can keep an eye open for signs of development and at least we realise that there will be a change in 2025 whereas I suspect there are an awful lot of people who don't.

And that assumes the cut off does happen in 2025. If we look at most large scale projects it usually turns out that they get delayed anyway.

Lastly, I see there are quite a few other threads which cover the same sort of thing - and none of them have elicited a response from IDNet staff so I suppose there's little chance of this one being any different.

TBH I think that by 2025 there will be a whole load of Routers which include a DECT base station and ATA converter so you can use your existing phones.  The Fritz range already have both options and the router that BT issue is another example, I don't doubt there will be many more.

Personally I'm not really worried since we'll see what the options are when the time comes. 

I'm assuming that when IDNet know what the deal is, they'll let us know. BT have surely got to firm loads of details up before any telecoms firm can say anything useful to their customers on this.

We have a friend in a fairly isolated  Welsh village who appears to have been miss sold fibre by BT. I haven't been to look, but from what she says BT replaced there original box the phone and internet were plugged in and now if there is a power cut, where they are not uncommon, they have no phone. There is no mobile reception in most of the village, I do know that  is the case! Both of them are in there 80's and have health problems. I thought the BT fibre boxes had battery's to provide power but they say there is no sign of any with the box installed. It doesn't sound to promising for how fibre is going if BT are miss selling like this.

I have now been told the vally has largly been coned and is now trying to force BT to do somthing as every one put onto fiber has no emergacy conextion.

If that's the case, John, complain. And (sadly) be willing to keep at it. They're vulnerable and they should/must have priority.

I would suggest that a complete tale is passed on to the local BBC TV Regional programme - it's the sort of thing they love to get their teeth into!

Indeed this is what I have said to the one we know. They shouldn't be responsible for replacing the existing emergency phone connection BT is withdrawing. It was bad enough with early BT fibre domestic boxes that had rechargeable batteries which you were responsible for replacing. There are a lot of people who wouldn't be able to do it. To overcome that it looks like they just now do nothing to maintain an emergency connection. I don't know what is happening to those phone connected devices like alarms, personal alarms etc. This is going on we think in a number of places, this one is  Llanarmon  vally.

This whole discussion has already been had earlier in this thread way back in November 2020, starting with Reply #13.

OfCOM have ruled that the average power cut in the UK lasts 45 minutes so that ISPs must provide vulnerable customers with a means of keeping in contact for at least one hour.  No comfort for the small number of people out of the population as a whole who have no mobile signal and live in rural areas where there are several power cuts a year lasting a number of hours.

I've bought several USB charged LED lights that can be used anywhere in the house.  Very handy for getting up in the night too although I have to keep waving my hand to keep it lit.   :laugh:

You should have bought the ones without a PIR then you would not to keep waving your hand.  :facepalm:

I'm sure I can disable the PIR.  On the other hand Mrs Clive and myself can dance around the room during the power cuts.   8-)
myself

An "unprecedented" and co-ordinated cyber-attack has struck multiple UK-based providers of voice over internet protocol (VoIP) services, according to an industry body. Industry body Comms Council UK said several of its members had been targeted by distributed denial of service (DDoS) attacks in recent weeks. "An overall threat has been made to the entire industry," a spokesman added. Ofcom said it was aware of the situation. DDoS attacks work by flooding a website or online service with internet traffic in an attempt to throw it offline, or otherwise make it inaccessible.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59053876

I don't understand why they can't mitigate against such a basic attack.

:dunno:

But it wouldn't half cause a problem once everyone has been switched over to VoIP.

It would and I think security in general is a concern e.g. is VoIP encrypted? How might it be affected by malware and viruses? etc.

Houses in our area are being swapped out as an 'enhancement' by BT - it is causing a bit of concern as folks find they have lost their phone lines as many do not understand that is what is happening.

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Oct 26, 2021, 23:41:49
I don't understand why they can't mitigate against such a basic attack.

Just checked VoipFone's status page https://www.voipfonestatus.co.uk (https://www.voipfonestatus.co.uk) and it looks as though they are still suffering.  And it's now a week since these attacks started. 

Doesn't augur well for VoIP, at least for the independent suppliers.

Quote from: Tacitus on Nov 02, 2021, 18:28:16
Doesn't augur well for VoIP, at least for the independent suppliers.

Their advice made me smile... 'You might wish to set your phones to automatically failover to the PSTN or mobile networks'

Thought people might like this. (It also suggests BT are swapping people over now?!?!) David Mitchell's column.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/14/its-good-to-talk-unless-youre-a-bt-customer

Can't argue with that.  :(

The Mail on Sunday did its bit to help https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-10198081/BT-warned-phone-shake-puts-vulnerable-risk.html - and yes BT are now switching people over. I'm not sure how it will affect the folks who are living in the bargain basements such as John Lewis internet which is resold PlusNet which is BT ..... ???

I'm quite sure that iDnet will be less cavalier in their approach.

The astonishing thing about this roll-out is nobody seems to know about it. Outside of this forum I've still not found a single person who knows anything about it. The could be the UK's best kept secret!

And that fact that it seems to already be happening, with seemingly no general hysteria, is perhaps even more astonishing!

Posting at 00:57.  Thanks to Storm Arwen our homebase in a mobile-free zone has been without power since 18:22 yesterday and no timescale for re-connection.  Not sure that OfCOM's policy of a one hour back-up actually meets the needs of a rural mobile-free community where many of the residents are in vulnerable categories when we go copper-free (which I suppose equally applies to our day-to-day access to law enforcement).

No is the simple answer to that. With the storm last night we have a elderly friend in the village we used to live in who has no mobile reception and the power was off from late evening until (the power  people said) nearly 4am this morning. Our old house in the village was in the same position, engineers from BT used to be despairing when running tests, (it took them years to fail to sort out the problem) sometimes if we/they went ½ down our garden (on a steep slope so not ideal in the dark or bad weather) you would get a reception. Go further and it would be lost, but likewise other times you would get nothing. The smart meter people would turn up to houses and go away again as at that stage they used mobile communion to provide the link. The whole village was like it as were others further into Wales which is a disaster for mobile reception (friend there thought it funny that a TV police  series had them using mobiles out in the country/hills, when he said the town the police station was in didn't have reception in many parts of it let alone the country side around.   

To close off my whinge the power was off from 20:22 (typo in original post) on Friday 26th. November until 19:39 on Sunday 28th. November.  During that time people with wired handsets could maintain contact using their landline.  When the copper goes, it is difficult to see how contact can be maintained over a power outage of that length.

Even if we had mobile reception, we would have had problems.  The adjacent areas are served by two mobile towers which handle different networks (i.e. there is no overlap of coverage on the same network).  The outage went on for long enough to exhaust any power back-up system on the tower used by O2 as they were advising that they had lost service in our wider area earlier on today.

Its a major problem is many areas. Some round us, Monday Morning are still off and reporting, on Facebook, they have been told midnight tonight. The frend went back late yesterday, no mobile signal so she wouldn't have to worry about keeping a phone charged! The power problem is poor reliance due to under investment over the years. When we were in the village the network people improved the problem of regular power cuts but admitted they could bring power in from two supplies to strengthen supply but it would be too expensive.  With global warming the weekend storm will be repeated more often so the firms should make their systems more secure but at present they are more driven to increases profit rather than security. Instead rely on the hard work of the engineers having to repair the out of date system all the time. This includes the changes BT are making driven by rising there proffite not the needs of those who use them.

They've got from now to the end of 2025 before they switch off the landlines as we know them. 

There was an article on the news this morning covering the unfortunate people who continue to have no electricity following Storm Arwen. It was said that the companies suppyling and/or reinstating failed supply relied to a considerable extent on landlines to have contact with customers.... particularly those who have no mobile coverage.... either because the mobile provider isn't providing cover to their area or because the customer's mobile phone has a flat battery and can't charge it.

It crossed my mind that Storm Arwen might, just, give Openreach and/or BT  something to consider before switching the landlines off.

If I had the solution I would (a) be happy to publish it here ... and (b) be a very rich man.

I haven't studied the matter in enough detail to know what other countries have done to overcome the problem but assume they've found a way of maintaining the essential communications that looks likely to be problematic in the UK if they do switch the landlines off before the country is good and ready.

I've no idea what telephone systems other countries operate on.  Are they largely copper wires, like the UK, or have other countries already adopted a different system?

Quote from: stan on Dec 04, 2021, 11:24:38
They've got from now to the end of 2025 before they switch off the landlines as we know them.......

It crossed my mind that Storm Arwen might, just, give Openreach and/or BT  something to consider before switching the landlines off.

If I had the solution I would (a) be happy to publish it here ... and (b) be a very rich man.

a) would probably preclude b)  :evil:

In many places the phone masts were out of action due to loss of power, we have had that where we currently live.

Quote from: john7 on Dec 05, 2021, 10:11:58
In many places the phone masts were out of action due to loss of power, we have had that where we currently live.

Wow, that's a scary thought with no phone line either.  We tend to lose our water supply when the power goes off, which is something to do with the local booster pump, so I'm told.  Can't imagine what it must be like for the people who have had no power for over a week now. 

Indeed, when the mobile mast went down at lest we could use our phone line with the BT fibre change over it will need smoke signals or maybe semaphore masts on all the houses to pass on messages in areas likely to get power cuts or not having mobile reception!

It beggars belief that they could allow a situation to develop when one potentially couldn't call the emergency services by any means.

But it creates profits for BT and other providers by removing the social support side of the network and passing responsibility to individuals to deal with it themselves. Even if there is no chance of any one replacing in many areas that lost support in emergencies. In addition there will be a more reliable network for BT (giving plenty of prospects to get rid of skilled engineers). You only have to look at how fast they are doing the changeover compared anything BT has done in the past! The profit potential is attracting buyers looking to take over BT.

This is a worrying development but we have all seen it coming for the past four years.  It's the reason I bought myself a decent mobile phone in recent months.  3G is being phased out anyway.   :red:

No use with no reception or masts down!

Quote from: Clive on Dec 09, 2021, 20:55:11
. . .we have all seen it coming for the past four years. . .

But that's the root of the problem.  Most people (even now) have no idea about what is coming.  We are currently away on holiday and at our dinner table tonight none of the other 4 guests were aware and two who lived in a mobile free area were horrified. They live in Rishi Sunak's constituency and planned to raise it with him which may mean there is a chance of getting a higher profile for the problem.

I was not referring to the general public because they don't know about it.  I only found out because my son bought a new build property in London that was only kitted out for VOIP.  So have you escaped to sunnier climes Postal?  I've been away in the Canaries where the rain was warmer.  Very enjoyable all the same. 

Half of our area lost power for the best part of a day this week. We were OK but coincidentally had no 4G coverage with two different providers for the duration. Was it a coincidence or do these masts take their power from the grid with no backup supply?

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Dec 10, 2021, 22:03:34
Half of our area lost power for the best part of a day this week. We were OK but coincidentally had no 4G coverage with two different providers for the duration. Was it a coincidence or do these masts take their power from the grid with no backup supply?

No need for a backup supply as people have a landline that doesn't need power. :evil:

Indeed :-\

Quote from: Clive on Dec 10, 2021, 20:52:57So have you escaped to sunnier climes Postal?

Not really sunnier as we spent 4 nights on one of those big gin palaces that cruise the Rhine.  Had to fill in a multitude of forms and have hard copies or copies on the phone but only one was actually inspected and are now sitting locked in the house waiting for the results of the tests we had when we got off the Eurostar at St. Pancras.  A lot of hassle but glad we did it as we have been going stir-crazy while our CoVid has limited our horizons.

Sounds wonderful to me!  It's been a lot of faff with all the documentation and we are still waiting for our PCR test results after a week in unnecessary quarantine. 

Lateral Flow Test 14:30 Thursday on the ship so we could travel back to UK.  PCR tested at St. Pancras 17:45 Friday.  Negative results received 01:30 Sunday so we are now free again (subject to the next whim from Boris or charlatan driven decision from Ferguson).

Looks like media are starting to recognise that there are a disadvantaged few in dangerous circumstances: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-59564480 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-59564480).

If it pokes BT into thinking through how best to switch and help people properly in a power cut that will be good. Not feeling confident about that one but we'll see. Maybe more media coverage of the issue will focus their minds?

Quote from: Postal on Dec 12, 2021, 20:36:41
Lateral Flow Test 14:30 Thursday on the ship so we could travel back to UK.  PCR tested at St. Pancras 17:45 Friday.  Negative results received 01:30 Sunday so we are now free again (subject to the next whim from Boris or charlatan driven decision from Ferguson).

We are still waiting today!   :facepalm:

Unsurprisingly BT have halted the removal of landline phones after discovering that the most vulnerable are unable to call 999. It has admitted to underestimating the disruptive impact of their policy.

I'd post a link but so far this news has not found its way beyond a paywall.

I think it was inevitable they would have to delay it.  For a start, there's not been nearly enough publicity or information about it, given that it's all supposed to be happening within the next three years.

With apologies...   ;D

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10661981/BT-throws-lifeline-landlines-bosses-suspend-digital-rollout-customer-backlash.html

A more reliable source:

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/9188-bt-consumer-announces-pause-of-digital-voice-roll-out

In other words they hoped to just get away with it, but they've been caught with their hands in the cookie jar and so must now pretend to be seen to be doing something about it - but all their solutions suggested are still just sticky tape and bailing wire - when the fit hits the shan the same people will still be stuck without a phone when it is most needed.
Road - Kick - Can ...........

Quote from: robinc on Mar 30, 2022, 07:16:24
In other words they hoped to just get away with it, but they've been caught with their hands in the cookie jar and so must now pretend to be seen to be doing something about it - but all their solutions suggested are still just sticky tape and bailing wire - when the fit hits the shan the same people will still be stuck without a phone when it is most needed.
Road - Kick - Can ...........

+1

Quote from: Postal on Mar 30, 2022, 20:25:24
+1

Glad they stopped for now but people still need to get prepared. I went SOGEA because I have no need for a dial tone and my careline works over 4G which is better quality sound wise as it uses VoLTE, the old unit sounded really awful compared with the new unit.  If people get prepared and get a VoIP adaptor 'ATA' to plug into their routers, and I'm sure many router manufacturers will jump on this bandwagon anyway then your Dect phone should work just fine with whatever VoIP provider you choose. Get a cheap UPS to plug it in, a stepped approximation to a sinewave model would be fine for this type of thing and your router and modem if separate and Dect phone will keep going if the power drops.

The thing is this takes time to set up and extra cash and many would need help, and I know a few people without broadband who would be stuffed if this had gone though. The thing is it will happen at some point, many providers don't easily give you an option for a dial tone now with a new broadband line or if you switch ISP so people need to be careful and make sure they get a dial tone with any new ISP unless they can get by using a mobile. Once again though some people don't even have one, or like using them. This whole idea was dumb really but I imagine providing 48 volts to each household for a landline probably costs a fair amount and prices are rising so fast in the energy world now  :bawl:. Maybe BT has decided to increase prices or something as a way of making money out of this dilemma! Sadly that would not surprise me in this day and age. :eyebrow:

I listen to quite a lot of radio, and when callers call in using various internet phone services (such as VoIP, Facetime, Zoom, etc), the call quality is usually pretty poor, with frequent drop outs and calls being lost.  I hope that when this new service is eventually rolled out, the call quality will improve. 

There was a BBC report that I regret I haven't  been able to re find  that said in the majority of phone problems they have are over internet ones. Indeed the appalling sound on so many reflects this. The other thing I noticed is the attempt to pass the problem onto the elderly, any age was being adversely effected by this BT money grab. The problems affecting those pushed onto fibre were not age related in the storms or power cuts from other causes. You do not have to be old to lose mobile signal when they go down or don't exist. It will be interesting to see what they will do with the people already on fibre who had no choice over it.

Quote from: john7 on Apr 04, 2022, 16:36:18
There was a BBC report that I regret I haven't  been able to re find  that said in the majority of phone problems they have are over internet ones. Indeed the appalling sound on so many reflects this. The other thing I noticed is the attempt to pass the problem onto the elderly, any age was being adversely effected by this BT money grab. The problems affecting those pushed onto fibre were not age related in the storms or power cuts from other causes. You do not have to be old to lose mobile signal when they go down or don't exist. It will be interesting to see what they will do with the people already on fibre who had no choice over it.

I agree totally many areas don't have a signal but if you have broadband you can use Wi-Fi calling if your phone supports il (not all of course) I have several APC sine wave UPS's so can use Wi-Fi calling if the power goes out for about 4 hours, although if I lost broadband too that would be it and anything over 4 hours would be the end of that. I think critical cell sites would have backup power, I know mine does as when the power goes out the mobile signal stays up but thats not going to be the same for every mast, infrastructure was not updated to make sure there were fail safes for the removal of dial tones. 

People are not being pushed onto Fibre really, though its much more stable than FTTC and you have no crosstalk (im down to 49Mbps from 63Mbps when FTTC was first put in) and it offers symmetrical connections, as upload is as important as download for many these days. Also as devices get more hungry for data, in a house with a reasonably large family with say two 4K TV's tablets phones and the myriad of devices that seem to have Wi-Fi for no reason like fridges and washing machines  :slap: fibre just offers more bandwidth. Sadly it feels like having a dial tone for those that need it was not considered important. I know we have to move with the times but it does help if the advances actually make sense.

Quote from: Simon on Apr 04, 2022, 12:20:08
I listen to quite a lot of radio, and when callers call in using various internet phone services (such as VoIP, Facetime, Zoom, etc), the call quality is usually pretty poor, with frequent drop outs and calls being lost.  I hope that when this new service is eventually rolled out, the call quality will improve. 

I have to say I cant recall never had a poor FaceTime call voice quality wise Simon, but other factors like like network dropouts and people gaming in the background can cause issues thats for sure on all of the video service but touch wood I can talk and see clearly with most people in most parts of the world with decent clarity most of the time but there will always be exceptions.

I use 5G for mine sometimes but even with my broadband it works well, then again FaceTime uses less data than some other services like Zoom or Skype or Microsoft Teams. VoIP can be affected by a firewall setting called 'SIP-ALG' most VoIP providers ask to turn that off if there are issues, it does make a difference. Its often how much bandwidth is available to the caller and how well their line behaves too and how good their equipment is, there are so many variables. I mean if you have loads of people using the broadband in a house and you can't get a decent 4G or 5G signal set the routers QoS to prioritise upload streaming which is also useful for Wi-Fi security cameras etc too (and gamers) and maybe reduce the amount of bandwidth the gamers are using as they tend to try and hog it all where as most games only need about 1mbp, I game myself and know via few forums given half a chance some of the less savvy gamers try to give their devices 100% of what's available bandwidth wise  ::) Some routers do allow you to alter what each device gets manually so you can stop them and other data hungry devices hogging all the bandwidth.

4G calls sound great using VoLTE because 4G/5G has more bandwidth and it if your phone is new enough will use high definition calling, but a landline gives you the certainty your call works which is the big catch for many, its simple and pretty reliable.

For myself I use the mobile all the time and spending even a few pounds extra to have a dial tone was not worth it in the end. That's fine for myself but not for other people who are in black spots etc for all connections or who just want to use a landline, but most people I know use Dect phones which unless you have a UPS die in a power cut anyway. This whole debacle needs a major rethink.  :(

Quote from: Gary on Apr 05, 2022, 10:30:26
People are not being pushed onto Fibre really, though its much more stable than FTTC and you have no crosstalk (im down to 49Mbps from 63Mbps when FTTC was first put in) and it offers symmetrical connections, as upload is as important as download for many these days.

Symmetrical connections on the alt-nets but not BT infrastucture.  The BT offer seriously restricts upload speeds; the current BT retail premium offer (Full Fibre 900) should give the full 900 Mbps download but the upload is capped at around 100 Mbps.  The slower options have the upload speeds similarly capped pro rata to the download speed.

I'm currently trying to remotely help someone set up two 'Cloud' phones, and it's like the blind leading the blind. 

So, the main confusion seems to be how to actually connect the phones to the router, if the router isn't in the same room as the phones.  Would a powerline broadband extender, such as this one do the trick, and could both phones then be connected to the same extender?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07J652QRY/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_i_88HGHGVTB8B5F86RK4C4

Also, the phones have come without power supplies, and the user has been advised that these are not needed as the phone will take its power from the Ethernet connection.  Does this sound right, and will this still work via a powerline extender?

The 'Cloud' service is due to be activated on the 13th, and we are assuming at that point that their existing landline service will be deactivated.  So, they would obviously like to get things sorted by then.

Scratching my memory cells I recall that a PoE device will require a switch/router that provides PoE - not normally a feature of domestic kit.

Not sure what router they have.  The phones are Poly VVX 250.

If the router doesn't have POE (and it probably doesn't) you should be able to use a POE injector (https://www.broadbandbuyer.com/store/poe-switches/poe-injectors/).

It would probably be easier just to get the optional PSUs for the phones.

It's usually preferable as well as easier, but an injector can be useful if there's a shortage of mains sockets at the desired location, awkward wiring layout etc.

I think I can guess the answer to this, but I'll ask it anyway.  If the router DOES have PoE, would that transfer to the powerline extender?

A question (https://www.amazon.co.uk/ask/questions/Tx18FS1D3C8O79V/ref=ask_dp_dpmw_al_hza) in your Amazon link suggests it it would if you use the right cables (8-core?), but I've no experience of PoE (and no recent experience of powerline kit) so I don't really know :(

ps

A closer read of the question and your post leads me to suspect it wouldn't work in the way you want to use it (it sounds like a different configuration to that in the Amazon question) but again, I don't really know, sorry :(

If it were me I think I'd go the safe route, get the mains adapter for the phones and, if it looked too untidy or whatever,  think about PoE at leisure!

That's OK, Bill, thanks anyway.  I've no experience of all this either, and now BT have back pedalled on the VoIP rollout, I don't intend to have for a while.  ;D

The people I'm trying to help unfortunately signed up to the new cloud phone service a day before the BT announcement, by which time it would have been a hassle to cancel it, and of course, what could possibly go wrong?  ::)

I've suggested they order a couple of PSUs for the phones, on the assumption that PoE won't be an option.  I think the router itself may well support it, but the router is in a different part of the house to the phones.

Quote from: Simon on Apr 12, 2022, 11:42:03now BT have back pedalled on the VoIP rollout, I don't intend to have for a while.  ;D

Similar here, in my case my trusty old Nokia 3310 mobile phone has been showing even more signs of age than me, so I've updated to an iPhone 12... that's enough new tech to get my head around for a while  ;)

I've just been informed the router is a Technicolor DGA0122.  Looking at the stats, it appears to have 2 FXS ports for phone or fax, but I've no idea if that means they are PoE, and I would assume, if they were, the phones would need to be connected directly to them.

If I've understood this article (https://www.3cx.com/pbx/fxs-fxo/) correctly (not guaranteed!), the FSX ports "replace" the old analog phone socket, they're not Ethernet. There's also this:

QuoteNote: The analog phone line passes approximately 50 volts DC power to the FXS port. That's why you get a faint "shock" when you touch a connected phone line. This allows a call to be made in the event of a power cut.

I think that's a bit more than PoE provides, and might be unhealthy for any network equipment plugged in to it  :eek4:

Thanks Biil.  I think I'll suggest they just stick to the normal ethernet connection, and hopefully the phones will work through the Powerline extender.

I'm still not really up to speed with this but I assume this isn't the BT Cloud? The reason for asking is someone I know found out the hard way you can only use pre-configured IP devices bought from BT.

I don't know which cloud it is.  It's not IDNet or BT Internet.  The ISP sent them the router and the phones, all of which were supposed to be pre-configured.  They have spent the day trying to get the Powerlines paired, without success, then it became apparent that both need to be plugged into a wall socket, not an extension.  :facepalm:

With regards the phones, they wouldn't work either connected the Powerline or directly to the router.  Apparently the equipment is PoE so they have been told that the phones should simply connect to the router and work.

They spent an hour on the phone to the ISP, but no one can work out what's going on, and why the phones don't work, but the ISP has confirmed that the phones aren't connected to the network.  ::) 

They now have to decide whether the fault lies with the router, the phones, Openreach, or the user.   Meanwhile, their landlines have been disconnected so they are having to use mobiles for communication.  I've stepped back from my advisory capacity (:laugh:), as I haven't any further idea than anyone else.

So one failure and approximately 25 million to go. This is not going to end well is it ;D

It's starting to become apparent why BT put the brakes on.   :slap:

Quote from: Simon on Apr 13, 2022, 20:23:21
I don't know which cloud it is.  It's not IDNet or BT Internet.  The ISP sent them the router and the phones, all of which were supposed to be pre-configured.  They have spent the day trying to get the Powerlines paired, without success, then it became apparent that both need to be plugged into a wall socket, not an extension.  :facepalm:

With regards the phones, they wouldn't work either connected the Powerline or directly to the router.  Apparently the equipment is PoE so they have been told that the phones should simply connect to the router and work.

They spent an hour on the phone to the ISP, but no one can work out what's going on, and why the phones don't work, but the ISP has confirmed that the phones aren't connected to the network.  ::) 

They now have to decide whether the fault lies with the router, the phones, Openreach, or the user.   Meanwhile, their landlines have been disconnected so they are having to use mobiles for communication.  I've stepped back from my advisory capacity (:laugh:), as I haven't any further idea than anyone else.

Just to update this, it turned out that the Powerlines weren't working as the room where the phones are located is on a different electrical circuit to the room where the router is.  Also, the phones do need power supplies, but the provider didn't send them.  ::)

Long story short, they've had an electrician run a power line from the junction box to the room where the phones are, on the same circuit as the room where the router is, and they now have power adapters for the phones, so everything is up and running.

The next 'problem' is, it seems that although they have two lines with separate numbers, when one phone rings, so does the other, and it doesn't seem to matter which handset they pick up.  So, both phone numbers seem to be connected to both phones, which seems a little bizarre, but I guess it works.  When one phone is engaged, the other one still rings, so it's a weird setup.

It's been a few months since anyone added to this topic and it would be a shame if it were to be lost in the mists of time ... and in that time Openreach came to our area (in Bovey Tracey, Devon) to install cables in the pavement ready for "Full Fibre" or FTTP. They said we would be notified about availability in August/September and indeed we were. And yesterday my neighbour had his property connected via fibre  - right into his house via a very neatly installed box known as a CSP (Customer Service Point). All very neat and took a couple of hours. Haven't yet quizzed him about it and don't know who his ISP is or whether he has kept his old phone(s).

It has revived my interest and I looked again at IDNet's website and can see that the Centrex offer seems to be the only FTTP one that we, as domestic customers, can have, and it's still quite pricey, and am I right in thinking that it's subject to a two year contract?  Is it just me who thinks the list of available offers isn't all that clear and straightforward? I still don't know if I would be able to take FTTP now and keep my old phone(s) ... which I would prefer.

Again I ask, does anyone from IDNet read these pages and take any notice?  Perhaps they do? - and if so I'd be very happy to see a bit more detail and updated info.

I've edited your post, Stan.  The reason for the lines crossing out the last two paragraphs was that you used a square bracket '[' instead of '(', which constituted the 'strikethrough' BBcode.  I've changed the brackets.  :)

Very many thanks, Simon.

Another little lesson learned.   :)

In answer to your question, as far as I am aware, BT have put the replacement of standard copper landlines on hold.  Not sure for how long, but from what I can gather, the issue is no longer imminent. 

Quote from: stan on Sep 08, 2022, 01:58:34I still don't know if I would be able to take FTTP now and keep my old phone(s) ... which I would prefer.

You can indeed have FTTP and keep your old phone line. That's what my parents have done. You do have to pay for both, but the "12 months for the price of 11" deal still applies if you are happy to pay up front.

We recently moved into a property with no obvious copper into the building although ironically every room bar the bathrooms have one or more phone points. IDNet were able to determine we have FTTP and after a little searching I found the associated hardware.

To cut to the chase we've now had over two months without a landline and found it to be far more beneficial than expected. No more unwanted calls, no more checking for messages every time we've been out and the vulnerable mother-in-law we were most worried about quickly learned that she could contact my other half on her mobile any time day or night. On top of that we are saving money and incoming calls go to the appropriate person's mobile.

I'm sure it's not going to work for some people but in our case ditching the landline has been a success.

Food for thought ... ta.

One thing to remember is that telephone exchanges tend to have bigger batteries than mobile phone masts.

PS. PoE, being a telecoms-derived standard uses similar voltages to telephony: about 50V DC at the power supply end.

You're likely to see 48V DC nominal on an off-hook telephone line, with ringing current being superimposed on that at about 80-100V RMS AC (usually 16Hz).

The current spec for this is Suppliers' Information Note (SIN) 351 (https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpportal/public/images-and-documents/home/help-and-support/sins/documents/SIN_351.pdf).

The spec for FTTP is SIN 506 (https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/content/dam/cpportal/public/images-and-documents/home/help-and-support/sins/documents/SIN_506.pdf).

Others you might be interested in: https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/help/suppliers-information-notes-(sins)

Quote from: nowster on Sep 08, 2022, 16:56:00
One thing to remember is that telephone exchanges tend to have bigger batteries than mobile phone masts.

If I'm still around in 10 years I'd like to think all mobile providers will have at the very least satellite backup for emergency calls. As things stand at the moment I do agree the mobile network is nowhere near as robust as it needs to be but hopefully that will change.

Quote from: nowster on Sep 08, 2022, 17:17:08
Others you might be interested in: https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/help/suppliers-information-notes-(sins)

I'm getting a 404 error on that link.

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Sep 08, 2022, 17:27:16
I'm getting a 404 error on that link.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/help/suppliers-information-notes-(sins) (https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/help/suppliers-information-notes-(sins))

Quote from: stan on Sep 08, 2022, 01:58:34
It has revived my interest and I looked again at IDNet's website and can see that the Centrex offer seems to be the only FTTP one that we, as domestic customers, can have, and it's still quite pricey, and am I right in thinking that it's subject to a two year contract? 

Yes it's a two year contract.  They supply Yealink kit, either DECT or a desktop phone, or so far as I know, you can have an ATA and retain your current kit, although if you do this you lose much of the benefit of VoIP.

I'm also told they don't support softphones such as Acrobits Softphone/GroundWire.  Whether they've since relented and offer something of their own I don't know.  Acrobits do offer a white label version of Groundwire so I guess it may be possible.

My real beef is that they only support Yealink kit.  On the Yealink website they specifically say of their DECT devices: 

QuoteYealink DECT technology is based on CAT- iq2.0, ....... But we are not compatible with any third-party DECT devices (base station, handset, etc.).

I have perfectly viable Gigaset kit which will do both analogue and VoIP, so I would be forced to buy new handsets to go with the iDNet supplied DECT base station.  Whilst I can understand they don't want a pile of support issues, I think it's a retrograde step for them to support only Yealink.  May be fine for their business customers but I think it may put a lot of domestic users off since Gigaset is quite popular in the domestic sphere.

I've also noticed that Gigaset are now supplying DECT handsets compatible with the DECT system in the Fritzbox routers.  Maybe only in the EU at present but I imagine it will gradually happen here.

For myself, I'd be wanting bare VoIP as I run my own Asterisk server.

I'm grateful for the above replies and am absorbing the information. I can't claim to be totally familiar with all the technical aspects referred to but am getting the gist of it.

I can imagine that a new VOIP DECT phone would perform a number of advanced operations but, speaking only for myself, I only want to make and receive basic telephone calls  and currently have hard wired and (old type)cordless extensions round the house which enable me to hear the phone ringing in the garage and upstairs etc. The only fancy facility that I use is Caller ID ... and that's it!
I'm guessing that to replace four "old" phones with four new VOIP DECT phones isn't gonna be cheap plus I don't really want the hassle of setting them up and spending a good while learning how to use them (remember I'm not a spotty 15 year old  :) )

If I was really honest I could manage without a landline phone and just use the mobile but I'm a bit traditional in some respects and am a bit reluctant to lose the familiar and it seems I'm not asking for the impossible but it also seems that IDNet aren't currently offering an easy to grasp explanation of how to achieve that.

Continued thanks for the info. currently being passed on.

With the BT 'conversion' process on hold I'm in something of a dilemma now.

We've not needed to make any calls on our landline for several months - mobile is OK here. However the doomsters are predicting power supply issues this winter (like last winter and the ones before that.....) though the main issue is storms and power lines. Last winter we lost mobile for a couple of days due to power lines but we did have landline for most of the time. Local power was back up after a day but that may have been luck.

I had planned on dropping the landline in November - £130 can be used elsewhere. Now I'm thinking maybe I should hang on - I have this habit of getting rid of something I've not used for years and then needing it about a week later.  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:  :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Sep 08, 2022, 17:25:45
If I'm still around in 10 years I'd like to think all mobile providers will have at the very least satellite backup for emergency calls.

I see the new iPhone 14 has provison for that.  Only in the US at present, but I imagine they will role it out worldwide over the next few years.  No doubt there will be a price to pay. 

One other point regarding Yealink v Gigaset.  I can't find anywhere there is an easy solution to transferring an iPhone or Mac address book to a Yealink phone.  I suspect you need to convert it to CSV or tab del and then have the faff of mapping the fields to the Yealink system.  I'm guessing that Yealink assume you have a network address book and make it easy to link to that.

Gigaset offer their 'QuickSync" untility for Mac and Windows, which makes it easy to transfer.  Either use Bluetooth or plug a handset to the desktop with USB and transfer the address book across.  Simple and another plus for Gigaset.

https://www.gigaset.com/hq_en/cms/service/downloads.html#category=442&product=65 (https://www.gigaset.com/hq_en/cms/service/downloads.html#category=442&product=65)8

PLEASE read this reply in good faith and as a well intentioned comment in reply to Taciturn's post no#223 immediately above........ when I say the stuff spoken about goes above my head and is the reason I say I'm not rushing to get a VOIP DECT phone with the attendant need to 'configure' it and grasp the facilities it (undoubtedly) offers. 

Alternatively, please someone tell me I'm overstating the case and you just get them out the box, plug it in and it works straight away?

No worries Stan.  In most cases people will simply be given a ready configured phone setup which is what iDNet will be doing.  You'll get the phones, plug them in and it should just work.

In your case you would probably have a converter which would enable you to continue using your existing kit, so no need to worry.

Ta for the above, Taciturn. Appreciated.

Are you able to confirm that I've got this right  .....  the only reference to fibre to the premises with a phone package attached is :-

FTTP + Centrex Single Line Voip Services

24 Month Contract. Discounted Router. Cordless Dect VoIP Handset included.
Phone service provided over high quality business VoIP.
Unlimited UK Landline & Mobile Calls.

500 Mbit/s Up

75 Mbit/s down

Priced at £60 per month.

So it looks like to get FTTP with a "landline" phone you have to have a high performance package (500Mbits).

Have I got that right?

Quote from: stan on Sep 09, 2022, 12:06:16So it looks like to get FTTP with a "landline" phone you have to have a high performance package (500Mbits).

Have I got that right?

The figures you quote may be correct for the 500 package, but I see no reason why you couldn't have the 40/10 SOGEA with the Centrex VoIP (Yealink DECT base + one handset) including all calls landline and mobile (UK only I would think) for circa £40/month inc vat.  That would be a 24 month contract.  In practice it's a decent deal apart from the fact that I already have a serviceable Gigaset system that will also do VoIP.

Since I already decided this is not for me I didn't ask what happens at the end of the contract.  In my case when FTTH arrives I will probably stay with iDNet for the Broadband and go to someone like Sipgate or Voipfone for the phone, although by then iDNet may have a different offer.  It's still early days before any action is required. 

If you want to know more of the detail, Steve Waters at iDNet is your man.

All received. Ta.

I can't see the lower spec package on their website but, certainly, that would do the job.

Thanks again for the helpful advice.

Quote from: robinc on Sep 09, 2022, 06:32:51
We've not needed to make any calls on our landline for several months - mobile is OK here. However the doomsters are predicting power supply issues this winter (like last winter and the ones before that.....) though the main issue is storms and power lines. Last winter we lost mobile for a couple of days due to power lines but we did have landline for most of the time. Local power was back up after a day but that may have been luck.

I had planned on dropping the landline in November - £130 can be used elsewhere. Now I'm thinking maybe I should hang on - I have this habit of getting rid of something I've not used for years and then needing it about a week later.  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:  :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

....and just to muddy the waters - September 15th our area EE mast failed. So far the fault is still open ended as EE are having issues with the land owner getting access to the mast - and it seems there are H&S problems due to asbestos in the equipment housing. Now, I'm pretty damn certain that asbestos should not have been anywhere near anything by the time mobile technology starting spreading, but who knows. So, we're now relying on a mix of wifi calling when at home and using a Tescomobile PAYG when out in our home area (fortunately I got dual sim phones when renewing back in 2020 for when we're on holiday). BT will discuss compensayshun when the fault is fixed.

Landline and internet renewals are now upon us and so I've little choice other than to cough up to keep the landline I guess - until it is taken away. ??? ???

That's a rotten bit of luck.  Hope it gets sorted for you soon.

We now have some more definitive information on this so I've started a new thread and will close this one.

Please continue the discussion here:

https://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,34143.0.html