IDNetters Forums

Simon has just announced that IDNet will be providing a LLU option via Telefonica see here (http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,27145.0/topicseen.html) for details.

As someone who has been on the trial, I can report that my line, which gave a 1-75-2M profile on BT's ADSL Max service, is now running at 2883 sync, with a 2.5-2.6Mb throughout. Stability is fine with a target NM of 6db rather than BT's 9db.

Can I get BE on my exchange at Frinton on sea.  ;D  I don't suppose so :'(  Just checked and I can't :'( :'(

Quote from: .Griff. on Oct 20, 2010, 22:38:57
Firstly let me say a big thank you for making the preceding statement and keeping all your customers informed.

Regarding the following -

QuoteHowever, it's clear now that we can't rely on BT alone - the risk to our business is too great. Therefore we are in the process of opening discussions with additional suppliers and we will keep you posted on how these discussions progress.

I'm extremely happy to see that you're looking into other suppliers. Granted nothing may come of it but it shows you have customers interests at heart and I can only encourage you to pursue this with complete support from me as a customer who's been an LLU user for the past 6 years before joining IDNet and experiencing the lack of end user care BT Wholesale seems to demonstrate on a daily basis.

You obviously know a lot more of the industry than me but I'd encourage you to speak with Be Unlimited who resell their network, AAISP being one example, and anyone who's been a Be customer, directly or indirectly, will vouch for their network.

;) ;) ;)  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

FYI Be/O2 use Broadcom DSLAM's so if you're wondering what router to use take that into consideration.

I think this should be a good business move for iDNet and hopefully will gain them more subscribers.   Sadly I can't get O2/Be on my exchange so it won't affect me.

Interesting they are keeping the prices/allowances the same for both BT and O2/Be, whereas A&A charge a premium. 

Fantastic news. :thumb:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but do we get notified if the line in question is to be transferred to Telefonica?

Whoooooohoooooooo yey!!! Woahh!!! Yehaaaaaaaaahh!! Yippppdiiidoooo! wowowowowowowow!



(my apologise, no time for a proper reply. But still.... YEY!!!!!)

[edit]
Oh, o2/BE/Telifonica. While probably the best equipment, service and company, it's the one not installed at my exchange!  :'(

I have Be/O2 available at this exchange. I have zero experience with their networks, though what I have heard is generally positive. I still think this can only be a good move for IDNet.

Another question, what sort of downtime can what expect from a transition between networks? I assume your login does not change, just that IDNet moves you to a different hostlink or whatever.

There will have to be some work at your local exchange i.e. a lift and shift. I assume the IDNet login will be the same as they have linked into the Be/02 network. Whether one can choose to opt out as opposed to opt in I'm not sure.

Quote from: esh on Oct 08, 2011, 10:07:21
Another question, what sort of downtime can what expect from a transition between networks? I assume your login does not change, just that IDNet moves you to a different hostlink or whatever.

A few minutes in my case, certainly less than 30.

The current BT logins are mirrored on the new connections, so it's totally transparent.

29 minutes for BT to unplug a cable, 1 minute for Telefonica to put it in their end. Right.

Well, my line isn't that bad (though it has been steadily degrading for some time now...), but I guess I'm willing to try it if IDNet want  ;) It would just be nice to know with a bit of prior warning if/when you are being switched over.

You'll get a date and probably a time span.

Sorry, another question. Does the IP address change?

No. :)

Hi esh, if you would like to move across to the Telefonica platform just drop us a mail - support at idnet . com

I'm sorely tempted to give it a whirl as BE quote 12 Meg on the line.

IF I do get a Mac from my current provider and place an order can I drop a mail and ask to get straight onto Telefonica's kit?

Yes. :)

I may give it a whirl in a few months if its just a one month contract, nothing ventured and all that.

It's worked for me, Mitch.

I'll have a think.

The Be website quote me 9Mbit on this line, which I find highly peculiar since it is ADSL1!

Thanks Simon, I'll give it a good think over, as now would be a good time to do it if ever, as I am around to poke at things should they break.

ASDL1 might be for BT, where as if O2/BE have their own equipment, they already install ASDL2+ as default. Hence the upgrade. :D

I guess that's the current state of many exchanges i.e. mine adsl2 is available with TalkTalk and Sky.  I wonder about bandwidth allowances, as an IDNet customer on BT adsl2+ switching to Telefonica, will if allowances remain the same have an increased allowance over an IDNet  BT adslmax to Telfonica switch.

Unfortunately I don't have Be/O2 on my exchange, but I am due for fibre by this time year.

Quote from: Lance on Oct 08, 2011, 21:32:17
Unfortunately I don't have Be/O2 on my exchange, but I am due for fibre by [time +n].

Fixed it for you. PS, "n" may approach "infinity". ;)

:lol:

Quote from: Steve on Oct 08, 2011, 19:30:53
as an IDNet customer on BT adsl2+ switching to Telefonica, will if allowances remain the same have an increased allowance over an IDNet  BT adslmax to Telfonica switch.

As things stand, allowances remain the same, Steve.

The increase in speed and stability may be worth it alone though.

Plus IDNet can tweak the line settings, eg target NM or interleaving.

Could they do things like drop your speed on request, to give stability?
The BT equipment has been known to automatically up speed, as it forgets long term idiosyncrasy. So if your line drops out once a month due to noise, it might be better to leave is at a lower through put, for better up time. :P

I can see a lot of those out in the rurals happy for it :)

Quote from: Technical Ben on Oct 09, 2011, 22:04:43
Could they do things like drop your speed on request, to give stability?
The BT equipment has been known to automatically up speed, as it forgets long term idiosyncrasy. So if your line drops out once a month due to noise, it might be better to leave is at a lower through put, for better up time. :P

I can see a lot of those out in the rurals happy for it :)

When I was Be they provided the ability to set a "SNR Profile" which in turn either increased or decreased sync speed. Obviously setting a higher SNR profile, e.g 9dB, lowered your sync speed but also made people with long/high ATT lines more stable.

Whether this facility is available to O2/Be wholesale customers is another matter.

I it can e tweaked down, I can't see why it couldn't also be tweaked upwards. :)

Quote from: Technical Ben on Oct 09, 2011, 22:04:43
Could they do things like drop your speed on request, to give stability?

Yes, they increase the target NM. They can also turn interleaving on or off and tweak the depth.

I would actually just use O2 LLU as an O2 user due to discounts even though its a years contact, the savings would be enough to sway me. O2 and Be has a bigger download limit too. Good news IDNet are doing this though it helps to diversify, alas no O2 LLU at my exchange and I really dont fancy ADSL2+ via BT in December.  :sigh:

That's ok Gary, I'd be happy to take the connection off you then. ;) :P  :whistle:  ;D  :laugh:

Hi, everyone, more questions, sorry :)... Since the Be network site is quoting me 9Mbit does that almost certainly mean it is ADSL2+? If that is the case, do I have a problem since I'm only outfitted with Ye Olde ADSLe equipment as it stands?

Yes you would need a compatible modem although the majority are!

I think this modem is about 2001-2002, so I suspect it's not. I just wondered if ADSL2+ was backwards compatible, but from what you say, I guess not.

Only in that it can be modulated as ADSL rather than ADSL2+.

What benefits does LLU have over 21cn stuff? Just curious as some have recommended me moving to an LLU provider after all my problems (although it's not available with anyone worth switching to). My line still hasn't recovered and I can't see how LLU could help with that ???

Its mainly to do with the lack of profile banding Niall where the BT system will cap your line at a certain maximum when instability is detected on ADSL2+ lines.

BE Wholesale do not do that and allow ISPs control of SNR etc which BT do not.

Ah ha, in that case I need IDnet to get some equipment in the Wrexham exchange :D

That'll be down to O2 now then.

Ooh christ, O2? They have a rather dodgy reputaion internet wise in this area. One of the other exchanges near here has them on it and I was only talking to a woman in work today who has spent months arguing with them to get out of their misleading contracts. I know it's not a contract with them, but I think I'll steer well clear if IDnet are using their stuff.

There is a clear difference between O2 retail and telefonica wholesale. Your contract is with Idnet and that doesn't change.

Strange Niall, never had any trouble with O2. When I first joined I did have the a problem with the part that uses "BT wholesale" . IE they did a Sky and purchased no bandwidth or their routing/hardware was no good. :(

Lance is coorect but it does depend on how good the lines are locally, I had a horrendous time with O2 Retail but would feel confident with IDNet having more control over the line parameters so its probably worth giving it a go.

I am mulling it over myself too.

Will there be an 'official' announcement of the connection with Telefonica, complete with appropriate publicity or is the announcement confined to Netters?

I think the fact they are trialling this would generate considerable interest on TB, possibly with pre-orders.

It's been mentioned on TB, I think, Tac, but at this point it's very much a trial, finding out how lines perform, which users will benefit etc. Whether there will be a general option to move, or it will be a matter for IDNet, based on their business model, is something I don't yet know.

I'll win the lottery tomorrow night and get IDnet some good kit installed :D

Had I got the money mate I would build a nationwide fibre network that ISPs could lease capacity on but priced so that it could blow BT's ADSL away.

In his LLU announcement, Simon at IDNet states:

After completing successful trials we are now beginning to migrate lines to the Telefonica platform where we see that the line will benefit from moving.

I note his comments about MAC codes etc; however, am I not right in thinking that whilst a move to LLU will be at no cost to the customer a migration out to another ISP-provided BT Wholesale ADSL service might incur a cost?  I assume that IDNet will not migrate a customer to LLU without prior discussion/agreement?

Edit:

Just checked SamKnows and it is not an option for me as there is no O2/BE LLU at my exchange. A couple of other advice forums state that the provision of a LLU MAC is voluntary: they go on to warn that not all ISPs accept LLU MACs. Something to think about before making the leap?

Just logged in to the IDNET website and looked at my package...
Package: Home Pro LLU
Premium Broadband: No
ADSL2+: No
ADSL2+ Availability: Live
Bandwidth Allowance: 180GB Total (Peak: 40GB / Off Peak: 140GB )

Does that mean I'm already switched to LLU?
If so, wouldn't it have been nice if someone had told me?

Also, Getting sync of over 17 Mbps, so must be on ADSL2+, so why does its say "ADSL2+: No"?

Sean

Sean I think you need to ask support. To me it means as you say- LLU however with regard adsl2+ the No may refer to it's lack of availability via BT as a provider at your exchange. :dunno:


One question Sean. Have your bandwidth allowances changed?

I have now contacted support and am awaiting a response.

Apart from the info on the IDNET website (see above) it would seem my connection must be LLU because the BT Speedtester won't work now - it says:
"Performance Tester is unable to run the speed test for your telephone number. Please check that it is the correct telephone number for your service.

My bandwidth allowances have stayed the same.

My exchange has BT ADSL2+, and I've been on that for several months.

One thing concerns me - presuming I'm now switched from BT to LLU, what happens if I want to switch to an ISP which uses BT - will I have to pay a reconnection fee?

Sean

Quote from: SSK on Oct 12, 2011, 12:37:44


One thing concerns me - presuming I'm now switched from BT to LLU, what happens if I want to switch to an ISP which uses BT - will I have to pay a reconnection fee?

Sean

I think the answer is NO as it's a 'partial' LLU and the normal MAC migration applies.

Have now heard from support that my line is indeed on LLU.

"The adsl2+: No"  listing on the website has been referred to website admins as the circuit is adsl2+

I asked about possible costs involved if I switch to an ISP who uses BT. They replied it " should not result in problems migrating should you chose to" - which presumably means no BT reconnection charge, maybe (as Steve says) because it is a 'partial' LLU.

Sean

Hmm, interesting.

Apparently I am on SuperMax LLU, though I have had no downtime whatsoever. My package shows 60GB/300GB, which is confusing as well, because it should be 40GB/180GB, not that I'm complaining I guess!

It currently says "ADSL2+: No" and "ADSL2+ Availability: (blank)"

I guess this means the bethere website is spewing nonsense when it says I can get 10Mbit!

Oh wait, the ADSL2 SuperPro package is 60/300GB. Does this mean I'm on an ADSL2 enabled line modulated to ADSL1? My brain!!

Hi Esh

You are on an ADSL2+ service but it looks like your line will only support 8Mbps.

We don't charge for LLU to BT migrations and so if anyone (on an IDNet LLU line) wishes to migrate away to another ISP (on a BT line) then we can always migrate them - within IDNet - from Telefonica to BT and then issue a BT-to-BT MAC code, free of charge.

Thanks for clarifying that, Simon. Does that add to the length of time it takes to migrate?

Thanks Simon and IDNet. I don't know how you manage it, but your amazing as a company. That reply is both logical, fair and concise to customers. When it would cause trouble with any other company, you found a solution to fit all needs (by allowing internal migrations for free). Just plain wow. How other companies manage to compete with such service I have no idea..

Excellent news, IDNET. BT has to feel the heat.

Were I to use IDNET commercially, I would certainly prefer a flexible dual source wholesale arrangement. I am all for smaller, more agile technology enterprises, trying to build competitive advantage and thereby top class companies. Jobs and Gates ultimately upturned IBM.

There is, though, the tiny "better the devil you know" caveat for me, because I have had a completely problem free time with domestic IDNET/BTW, since joining from Virgin Media in 2008. I very nearly went with ADSL24/Entanet which allegedly had problems later and is now an ADSL24/C&W service I think. I would very much prefer not to be moved without my consent and certainly not without being told. I would also seek assurances that an LLU service will not run short of capacity. But I feel sure IDNET have thought of that.

At a more practical level there is the small matter of having the relevent LLU equipment at one's exchange. This set me thinking if there is a way that end users who are, or wish to be, customers of the various ISPs that partner Telefonica Wholesale, can collectively petition for LLU equipment to be installed at exchanges where there is none. Could there be perhaps a site to register one's interest. Such is the widespread disenchantment with BT generally, and with its treatment of wholesale customers, you could believe there is pent up demand for a quality LLU wholesale provider.

Finally there is the question of the voice service and whether there will be the option of becoming fully unbundled.

So well done IDNET. As Corporal Jones might say, "They don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring." Let wholesale competition flourish!

Quote from: davej99 on Oct 12, 2011, 14:49:20

I would very much prefer not to be moved without my consent and certainly not without being told. I would also seek assurances that an LLU service will not run short of capacity. But I feel sure IDNET have thought of that.

I agree with the above. If IDNet is moving its customers to a new wholesale provider then customers need to be told in advance by Support. Or, alternatively, IDNet should do as other ISPs have done re ADSL to ADSL2+ which is to inform customers that they will be transferred to LLU when their exchange is enabled. I accept that IDNet needs to get away from the clutches of BT but customer service is all about company to customer communication and this, IMHO, has never been IDNet's strong suite.

To put this into context, my daughter has just rented a flat in London and I have been quietly surprised by the way that BT has handled her set up. (She went to BT to avoid having to pay all the upfront charges). They kept her informed by text - noting that she did not have landline phone or broadband access - of the progress of her order. Texted her on the day before to confirm that everything was going forward the following day. Sent 2 further texts when the phone line and broadband were enabled. She then managed to bungle the Hub firmware update and she spent an 1 hour or more on the phone (at BT's cost)  being talked through the 'fix'. And she gets 19Mbps synch on a 20Mbps ADSL2+ connection free for the first 3 months.

Just to play Devil's Advocate here. Our contracts are with IDNet, not BT, nowhere does it say anything about who provides the underlying service. If IDNet wish to change the wholesale supplier, that's up to them, provided it doesn't reflect adversely on the customer, and they seem to have covered that.

Indeed they have.

I think when I have used up my bandwidth with my current provider I'm going to give IDNet a whirl via LLU.

I agree, Rik. Under the terms of our contracts IDNET are free to choose whichever wholesale supplier they like and as long as the customer is not disadvantaged by changes there is nothing we can do.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 12, 2011, 15:20:44
Just to play Devil's Advocate here. Our contracts are with IDNet, not BT, nowhere does it say anything about who provides the underlying service. If IDNet wish to change the wholesale supplier, that's up to them, provided it doesn't reflect adversely on the customer, and they seem to have covered that.

Rik - I don't disagree; however, what happened to courtesy. Announcing a change of this magnitude on a forum which may be read by only a small number of IDNet customers is hardly good PR. Secondly, a customer always has the right to migrate which could also be avoided with good communications from an ISP. As I understand it, OFCOM is still in discussions with ISPs about a MAC code process for partial LLU migrations. Clearly, IDNet has a plan - why do not say so upfront on their website?

Quote from: Rik on Oct 12, 2011, 15:20:44
Just to play Devil's Advocate here. Our contracts are with IDNet, not BT, nowhere does it say anything about who provides the underlying service. If IDNet wish to change the wholesale supplier, that's up to them, provided it doesn't reflect adversely on the customer, and they seem to have covered that.

Yep. As said, although I'd expect IDNet to tell customers first, I'd not necessarily apply that to other companies. IE, if it's a transparent service like ASDL+ to ASDL2+ or "routing" etc, then customers are not necessarily in the communication "loop". But they are not required to be, it's a transparent service. :P

If Royal mail use Ford vans instead of VW vans, you'll not get told in the post. IDNet just upgraded to Mercedes. ;)

Quote from: Simon_idnet on Oct 12, 2011, 14:25:52
Hi Esh

You are on an ADSL2+ service but it looks like your line will only support 8Mbps.

Thanks, I got some clarification from support also. Now I'm feeling mighty stupid here, but when you say "my line", is that because of my old network equipment (which is old) or some other telecomms equipment between the exchange and me? I'm a bit unclear on that.

For folks who are interested :

My downstream bandwidth has remained at the decent-but-unremarkable 5.5Mbps (which was 6.8Mbps in 2007-2008). My upstream however has shot up to a bonkers 0.99Mbps, which I didn't think was possible on ADSL1. Ping analysis will need a little more time but things seem fine.

Quote from: Ardua on Oct 12, 2011, 16:33:05
Rik - I don't disagree; however, what happened to courtesy.

Do we question which power station generates our electricity as long as it works? Ideally, I'd have liked to see emails sent to customers warning of the change, as there might be some downtime, and that may happen as the programme gets into full swing. However, doing so could end up in an email exchange if the customer doesn't want the move.

QuoteAnnouncing a change of this magnitude on a forum which may be read by only a small number of IDNet customers is hardly good PR. Secondly, a customer always has the right to migrate which could also be avoided with good communications from an ISP. As I understand it, OFCOM is still in discussions with ISPs about a MAC code process for partial LLU migrations. Clearly, IDNet has a plan - why do not say so upfront on their website?

You're asking the wrong person, but it's not uncommon for changes, eg 24/7 support, to be announced here. I am guessing, but I'd expect a newsletter to be in the offing once all the testing is complete and the bugs ironed out.

I noticed that it has only been announced here, unless I missed it over at TBB.

I'd just like to point out again I would not have known I had been changed over unless I had been prompted to check my customer portal - so there isn't going to be any sudden drop/chaos on your line. It should be transparent for most people.

Pretty sure my ping has gone up. I'm keeping an eye on that.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 12, 2011, 15:20:44
........  If IDNet wish to change the wholesale supplier, that's up to them, provided it doesn't reflect adversely on the customer ........

Indeed my Ts & Cs state at:

(Section) 2 Supply of the Service

(Para) Upgrades and other changes

"We reserve the right to: upgrade, add to, or improve the Service (at no extra charge to you during the payment
period during which this change occurs); make other amendment, variation or modification to the Service (subject to
there being no material detriment suffered by you as a result)."

I am no advocate, Devil's or otherwise, but I suggest it is both prudent and courteous to advise customers before changing their wholesale supplier, and ideally secure at least tacit agreement. But for me that is academic; I do not have Telefonica LLU at my exchange.

I don't think that anyone is arguing about contractual rights. My point is this. If I was on a slow ADSL1 service and IDNet could see that I would benefit from transferring to LLU (ADSL2+) and made the change without telling me, I would be a little annoyed to find that I had lost internet connection because my aged Netgear DG834 was not ADSL2+ capable. I only changed my 6 year old router 6 months ago because ADSL2+ became available at my exchange. Not all broadband users change their routers as frequently as their underwear. Clearly, IDNet can do what it wants but the customer also reserves the right to walk if he/she doesn't like what is happening. This threat can be reduced if there is good communication between the ISP and its customers.

Quote from: Ardua on Oct 12, 2011, 21:21:39
My point is this. If I was on a slow ADSL1 service and IDNet could see that I would benefit from transferring to LLU (ADSL2+) and made the change without telling me, I would be a little annoyed to find that I had lost internet connection because my aged Netgear DG834 was not ADSL2+ capable.

I've been doing some research and it has become clear that if your router does not support ADSL2+ but is on a ADSL2+ connection, it will still work in normal up to 8mb ADSL mode. Therefore, the argument about not changing wholesale supplier because customers might not have updated their router is void.

Indeed, and if a customer has a router that will not play nice then one of the advantages of Telefonica is that we can change the modulation back to ADSL1 (Max) within a few minutes in order to bring the service back online (rather than waiting overnight for BT to change a Profile). We really cannot see any downside to improving a customers wholesale provision in this way. That said, if anyone wishes to revert we will be more than happy to oblige.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 12, 2011, 18:09:18
Do we question which power station generates our electricity as long as it works? Ideally, I'd have liked to see emails sent to customers warning of the change, as there might be some downtime, and that may happen as the programme gets into full swing. However, doing so could end up in an email exchange if the customer doesn't want the move.

There is no legal reason why IDNET should notify customers. The T&Cs make it clear a customer would have no grounds to object. Personally, my initial reaction was that I don't really care and my more thoughtful reaction was that the move was probably overall a good thing. However, apart from courtesy and the fact that it is generally good customer relations to keep customers informed, there are some practical aspects.

For example, when it was noticed I'd been switched there was a not unreasonable concern that future migrations to a BT-using ISP might give rise to additional expense. Yes, that concern was answered adequately, but I had to ask, taking up my time and the time of IDNET support.

Also, with the switch to LLU the BT speedtester no longer works, but if you don't know you've been switched to LLU, you won't know why the BT speedtester suddenly stops working - the error message isn't very specific to those of us who don't know much about such things. So a newly-switched customer might keep trying and then possibly have to contact support to find out why it isn't working. More time wasted.

An automatic email to those being switched, explaining the consequences, eg BT test, etc, and allaying fears about any future migration cost, etc could avoid many requests for support.

Would there be as many emails from those not wanting to move as there may be additional email requests for support for the above reasons? I've no idea. However, I think a customer would be happier with the move and less likely to object if he's told why the switch is being made and what the consequences are than if he finds out about the move only when, for example, he enquires about why the BT speedtester suddenly stopped working? Emails to support would probably need to be dealt with on an individual basis, but it should be possible to have a template response for those who don't want to move.

Running my own business in a 'service industry' I know that customer interactions are just as important as the actual quality of the service provided. I've  found from experience that keeping customers informed makes them feel that you care about them and generates customer loyalty. Loyal customers not only stay with you but are more forgiving when the inevitable cock-up occurs. So even if automatic notification did lead to more people emailing to say they don't want to move (which I doubt) it would still pay dividends in customer good-will.

Sean

Hi Ardua.

As noted above my equipment does not appear to be ADSL2 capable and I did not record any connection drop from my end. I shall try and procure some more modern devices however.

I'm amazed at some people on here.

I can't think of a single negative of moving from a BT Wholesale connection to a Be/O2 LLU connection and the advantages speak for themselves. Everyone on here, with maybe one or two exceptions, moans constantly about BT and their antiquated and shambolic provision yet here we have IDNet doing something proactive and people still moan!!  :slap: :slap:

I know, Griff. I'm also surprised that people feel they should be told who their wholesale supplier is. If it works and there is no impact, why does it matter? I guess it's because in my job my customers don't care how the outcome/objective is met, so long as it is.

After being reassured by Simon's post about the cost (or lack thereof) of switching to LLU and back if a move was needed, I think I'd jump on LLU, although it's not on my exchange and from what I've read on the BT site, FTTC will be available before be/o2 get equipment installed in my exchange!

Ho hum.

/me stares at samknows

I could be wrong Niall but from reading posts on the Be forum (which is members only albeit I still have access being an ex Be customer) Be/O2 have no plans to increase their LLU presence meaning if your exchange isn't currently Be/O2 enabled it's not going to be at any time in the near future.

Quote from: .Griff. on Oct 12, 2011, 22:27:53
I'm amazed at some people on here.
Everyone on here, with maybe one or two exceptions, moans constantly about BT and their antiquated and shambolic provision yet here we have IDNet doing something proactive and people still moan!!  :slap: :slap:

I agree griff.  I too have been been reading this thread and am utterly bemused by the response.  Twelve months ago after the great BT failure, all we were hearing was, "iDNet should go LLU, should sue BT," etc etc.  I don't doubt they lost many customers at the time. 

Here we have an old-fashioned business - old-fashioned in the sense that it listens to its customers and attempts to improve its offer - yet still people have to find something to complain about.

Quote from: Technical Ben on Oct 10, 2011, 09:16:57
That's ok Gary, I'd be happy to take the connection off you then. ;) :P  :whistle:  ;D  :laugh:

Considering the number of peeps that have had ongoing issues on ADSL 2+ I'm staying on ADSL max.

If, as many above suggest, this is a 'win-win' situation for both IDNet and its customers then why doesn't Simon shout about the change from the rafters? An e-mail to existing customers saying something along the lines of ' IDNet in its pursuit of improved service for its customers has decided that ........  What this means for you as a customer is .............  As far as your contract with IDNet is concerned nothing will change?  Surely, this has to be a better way of communicating a change rather than placing it on a forum that most IDNet customers will never visit. If as others suggest this is nothing more than changing a red van for a green van then why mention the change at all?

The reason maybe for posting it here but not doing wider publicity is possibly because members on this forum in the past have been quite vocal in suggesting that Idnet gain another wholesale supplier.

I expect the majority of customers don't care, or aren't bothered as long as it just works.

Quote from: .Griff. on Oct 12, 2011, 22:27:53
I'm amazed at some people on here.

I can't think of a single negative of moving from a BT Wholesale connection to a Be/O2 LLU connection and the advantages speak for themselves. Everyone on here, with maybe one or two exceptions, moans constantly about BT and their antiquated and shambolic provision yet here we have IDNet doing something proactive and people still moan!!  :slap: :slap:

I can see a potential issue, but I'm not sure if O2 is full LLU, community home careline units dont work on LLU if the phones goes to LLU as well, not sure if thats the case here, if it is that would cause untold issues as my emergency careline and pill reminder service would fail. For instance Talk Talk LLU stopped my mother being able to use a careline as they need BT lines to call the control centres.

As far as I am aware it's not full LLU, the voice connection stays as is.

Quote from: Lance on Oct 12, 2011, 23:09:27
.....  I'm also surprised that people feel they should be told who their wholesale supplier is. If it works and there is no impact, why does it matter? ........

Surprised or not, it is clear a proportion of customers feel they should be informed of major changes in the way our broadband service is provided. However, the general view is that Telefonica LLU is advantageous, so there is little downside and probably a lot of upside to be had from marketing this improvement positively, to both existing and new customers.

The trouble comes when customers have problems, even if unrelated to LLU, and they discover they have been moved over without their knowledge. This is not like domestic electricity supply; broadband is fragile and immature technology by comparison. As a result customers are a little paranoiac, rightly so. Many of us have been had over by other ISPs in the past and we all know LLU provision is in itself no guarantee of a good service.

Invariably it is better to over-communicate with customers, especially if one's business is built on trust and capability. It's not that it matters; it's that customers can think it matters. And if the mud ends up on the fan, for what ever reason, it's good to have goodwill in the bank.

One risk of a mass email is that the service will not be available to everyone, so some receiving it would feel aggrieved.

Are there any plans to add an option to the order form to select LLU?

I haven't heard, Mitch.

We anounced it here as you lot are most likely to appreciate what it is all about. Most of our customers are corporates who just don't want know what's 'under the hood' and regard the technicalities as, at best, arcane semantics but mostly just as Geek Gobbledegook.

They might care if a JCB turned up and started to dig their car park  ;D

Quote from: Simon_idnet on Oct 13, 2011, 10:31:52
We anounced it here as you lot are most likely to appreciate what it is all about. Most of our customers are corporates who just don't want know what's 'under the hood' and regard the technicalities as, at best, arcane semantics but mostly just as Geek Gobbledegook.

What customers want to know and what they should be told is not the same thing; a bit like Prime Ministers.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 13, 2011, 10:24:44
One risk of a mass email is that the service will not be available to everyone, so some receiving it would feel aggrieved.

On the subject of availability, do we know if Telefonica LLU coverage will be expanded, or as Griff has suggested, is that not going to happen? It would be nice to think, where there might be sufficient demand, they might be persuaded.

We don't know, Dave.

Quote from: .Griff. on Oct 12, 2011, 22:27:53
I'm amazed at some people on here.
I can't think of a single negative of moving from a BT Wholesale connection to a Be/O2 LLU connection

It is not so much of a disadvantage but it can be a surprise when the BT speedtester stops working and one doesn't know why.

As has been pointed out, changing to LLU has advantages, so telling a person being shifted the advantages of the shift is good public relations. It advertises the cleverness and caring nature of the company taking these steps to improve the service.

Even if it didn't make any difference at all, it is good customer relations to keep people informed. That way they feel they are valued and not being treated like commodities on the company balance sheet.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 13, 2011, 10:24:44
One risk of a mass email is that the service will not be available to everyone, so some receiving it would feel aggrieved.

I agree, but that isn't what I meant by automatic emailing. When the list of people to be shifted is decided is it beyond the bounds of modern technology to have emails sent automatically to people on that list?

As for people not caring what's 'under the hood' - many people who buy a car don't really care whether it's got 16 valves or 24 valves, 6 cylinders or 5, etc, yet manufacturers advertise these things, even put it on their cars. It impresses those who do care and doesn't put off those who don't.

IDNET is selling somethng (eg internet connectivity). Selling things isn't just about the product but about customer psychology (Coke, Pepsi are examples of that). The people at IDNET are technically very good. They provide a good service. But they often don't seem to have much idea about customer psychology.

Sean

Quote from: Rik on Oct 13, 2011, 11:05:52
We don't know, Dave.

Sorry, Rik, can't resist on the subject of knowing, as Sir Humphrey might say,

Ministers do not know what they need to know. So those who know what Ministers need to know, must tell them what they need to know, whether they need to know or not. Then when Ministers find they need to know, or wish they didn't know, they already know, whether they know they know or not.

Sorry folks, but like most people I don't want to pay the cost of all this customer psychology! And I really wasn't aware that Coke and Pepsi e-mail all their consumers when they change the formulation of their (rubbish) products. (There is enough junk in my inbox already).

I recognise that like all mass market products (and broadband is a mass market product) I have to fit my use to the product (EDIT: and continue to do so when things change over time). It isn't difficult if you try. Just like you can moan about anything if you try hard enough. It's consumer psychology, unfortunately. If you need a BT service buy it from BT retail, and don't tell me the fib that you can't afford it.

Not sure what the issue is, they will move you if you request or they think your line will perform better, if you want to leave they will move you without charge back to a BT circuit and issue a MAC and probably absorb any cost.

Can't say fairer than that.

Quote from: Steve on Oct 13, 2011, 09:10:10
As far as I am aware it's not full LLU, the voice connection stays as is.

Cheers I can let my mother know about that Steve, as she is on IDNet :thumb:

Quote from: mervl on Oct 13, 2011, 11:36:05
Sorry folks, but like most people I don't want to pay the cost of all this customer psychology! And I really wasn't aware that Coke and Pepsi e-mail all their customers when they change the formulation of their (rubbish) products. (There is enough junk in my inbox already).

I recognise that like all mass market products (and broadband is a mass market product) I have to fit my use to the product (EDIT: and continue to do so when things change over time). It isn't difficult if you try. Just like you can moan about anything if you try hard enough. It's consumer psychology, unfortunately. If you need a BT service buy it from BT retail, and don't tell me the fib that you can't afford it.

Thats not the point as  I see it, in this day and age we have enough issues finding out what, when, how! I dont want my BB supplier deciding on my behalf whether to let me know about a big change because I may not understand what's under the hood hats for me to decide not them, that's a bit draconian tbh. People have a right to the information so if the want they can research the changes, being kept in the dark to only find out later you got moved will make some people think it was an underhand move, especially if they have issues later on. I think not emailing people is a bad move. Enough of that goes on as it is in other industries...

I think the overriding purpose is to give a better experience which couldn't be said for a lot of companies.

I'll get my couch out and invite them round. :)

Quote from: pctech on Oct 13, 2011, 12:03:38
I think the overriding purpose is to give a better experience which couldn't be said for a lot of companies.

Exactly, but apparently that's not good enough. 

Apparently not, AAISP charge a helluva lot more for a BE wholesale circuit.

Quote from: .Griff. on Oct 12, 2011, 22:27:53
I'm amazed at some people on here.

I can't think of a single negative of moving from a BT Wholesale connection to a Be/O2 LLU connection and the advantages speak for themselves. Everyone on here, with maybe one or two exceptions, moans constantly about BT and their antiquated and shambolic provision yet here we have IDNet doing something proactive and people still moan!!  :slap: :slap:

We can no longer moan about BT? Oh wait, that is a positive thing. :D
Most are not moaning, it was just a surprise. A surprise and a change. Unknown, a change and a surprise. Once people get over the surprise, the change has happened and they know there are not drawbacks, all will be good. :)

Quote from: pctech on Oct 13, 2011, 13:58:34
Apparently not, AAISP charge a helluva lot more for a BE wholesale circuit.

It costs IDNet more too.

Sad that that is the case Rik. Considering O2 subsidised their own service so heavily (and suffer because of it at times). The subsidies are not good for customers in the long run (over subscribed and under funded infrustructure could result) but when buying, the price has a large draw to new customers. It makes it harder for IDNet to compete.

Mind you, I know what it feels like to not want certain new customers anyhow (those who pay little, demand a lot and ask for impossibilities/contradictions!).

What, our lot, Ben?  ;D

Quote from: Technical Ben on Oct 13, 2011, 16:39:23
We can no longer moan about BT? Oh wait, that is a positive thing. :D
Most are not moaning, it was just a surprise. A surprise and a change. Unknown, a change and a surprise. Once people get over the surprise, the change has happened and they know there are not drawbacks, all will be good. :)

I would suggest that most of the moans on this and on other ISP websites relate to problems with the wires between the exchange and the pc. What benefit does LLU bring if, for example, there is an intermittent HR fault between the home and the cabinet? Am I right in saying that there will still be the issue of 'if you want an engineer and no fault is found then the customer pays'? Not many broadband users understand, or even wish to know about, DSLAMs, Pings or downstream SNRs. They just want broadband that works as advertised on the tin, and when it breaks they know that their ISP will push BT to have the problem resolved at no cost to the customer.

You're right, the weak link is still the last mile, which is under Openreach control regardless of whether the connection is LLU or BT. OTOH, LLU allows the ISP to tweak the most out of the line and doesn't use the artificial download ceiling of a BT profile, so they will get a better service most of the time from the LLU connection.

Quote from: Technical Ben on Oct 13, 2011, 16:49:43
O2 subsidised their own service so heavily (and suffer because of it at times).

If you walk down the High Street you will likely see quite a few mobile phone shops - but how many ISP shop fronts? I think that tells you where the money is (and where the cross-subsidies come from).

Oh yes, I know.

I meant it's quite unfair for you. If Sky or Virgin or BT or O2 could subsidise IDNet, then there would be no question on comparisons. But I'm still here, even though the price is not subsidised, cos the service and business practices are much more valuable. :D

It's a bit like Tesco building a new shop next to the brilliant butchers or green grocers. They will still be able to compete, but it makes it harder. (Tesco could run a store as a loss leader, the butchers/green grocers cannot)

Quote from: Rik on Oct 13, 2011, 17:29:33
You're right, the weak link is still the last mile, which is under Openreach control regardless of whether the connection is LLU or BT. OTOH, LLU allows the ISP to tweak the most out of the line and doesn't use the artificial download ceiling of a BT profile, so they will get a better service most of the time from the LLU connection.

What about if there is a card fault at the exchange? Is that still BT province?
Twice in the past (before I moved to IDNET) my internet connection was down for days (once for almost 3 weeks!), first because BT refused to acknowledge a card fault, then it took them more days to decide to switch out the card and another couple of days to get a replacement.

All this sort of information about future migrations, enginerr vists, warnings about BT tester, etc (or at least a link to that information) could have been sent out by email to people who've just been switched.

BTW - to those who say they don't want their fees to be used for customer psychology - it actually costs very little and much of the time nothing at all. How much does it cost to send out an email? How much does it cost to answer a phone courteously and helpfully?

How many times have we seen in this forum people complain about phone calls to support being curt unhelpful, only to get the reply that it's BT fault and there's nothing support can do? The fact that support can't do anything but wait for BT is no excuse for giving the impression that they couldn't care less. Of course, being nice and soothing won't get the problem solved any quicker but at least it doesn't alienate the customer. Alienating a customer not only leads to losing that customer but leads to them giving low ratings on websites and telling all their friends to stay away.

The fact that support might still be waiting for BT is no excuse for not bothering to reply to a customer's follow-up email. How much would it cost and how much time would it take to send a reply email saying "sorry, but we're still waiting for BT"?

Sean

Anything in the exchange is BT dependent, only Openreach can work there.

Yes, more information could, and probably should, have been given to users, but I suspect that, after the trials, IDNet were in a hurry to deploy the new service to those who would benefit. The nuances of the change may have been over-looked in the enthusiasm.

I've seen lost of complaints over the years from members, yet I probably spend more time on the phone to them than any other customer, and they have been unfailingly helpful to me even though I am phoning about someone else's connection. OTOH, I know of cases where people have phoned 10 times a day or more, and simply shouted at them. It might not be perfect, but it is very human in that situation that they don't get the answers they want. In my experience, how you speak to people affects how they speak to you.

Very true, Rik. 

Quote from: SSK on Oct 14, 2011, 10:48:39
How many times have we seen in this forum people complain about phone calls to support being curt unhelpful.......

Don't forget that we only ever hear one side of the story.  I remember getting involved in one iDNet thread on TB and it soon became obvious that the complainer was a complete ******* who had some sort of axe to grind or vendetta to pursue.  Never did get to the bottom of it since in the end the mods locked it, but judging by his posts, had support told me they'd had nothing but foul mouthed abuse from the guy, I would have no problem believing it.

The many people who simply get good reliable service never (or seldom), bother to say so.

Perhaps in this case an email would have been a good idea, but the lack of one hardly constitutes the end of the world, considering the benefits people should gain.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 14, 2011, 12:29:29
In my experience, how you speak to people affects how they speak to you.

In my experience too. No matter how much one wishes to choke the life out of the people at the other end of the phone when things go haywire, one can always get better results by being calm, friendly and non-confrontational. Helping people to help you is very much the best policy. Remember also, folks in customer service generally are getting abused for a living and do get hardened, so pleasantry up front is always going to get the call off to a good start and motivate a favourable outcome. I like to get a name and use it during the call. I often apologise for appearing difficult and always finish the call by thanking the other party for their time, courtesy and expertise, whether I have been helped or not. Invariably I get thanked for saying that.

I think I have only spoken to IDNET tech support once or twice and maybe emailed three times in four years. I could not fault their speed of response, courtesy and the quality of the advice received.

Thanks for that, Dave. You're right, support staff do spend their lives getting stick, a little humanity goes a long way with them.

Good news everyone.

I got my arse in gear and installed a new ADSL2 device. Getting a thoroughly respectable 11.5Mbps down now. Upload is about the same, ~0.65Mbit which is a little disappointing but fine.

Overall a damn good upgrade for free, about twice the bandwidth, and twice the speed (and remember BT don't offer ADSL2 here!).

A great result, Esh :thumb:

A tiny bit more bandwidth allowance too? (As now ASDL2 equivalent)

Quote from: Technical Ben on Oct 14, 2011, 23:01:42
A tiny bit more bandwidth allowance too? (As now ASDL2 equivalent)

Yeah that's right. I went from 40/180GB to 60/300GB, which was the only thing that prompted me that I had ADSL2 capability! Very handy.

I found this link about the wholesale product in question: http://www.bewholesale.co.uk/ (http://www.bewholesale.co.uk/). This seems distinct from Telefonica Wholesale: http://www.telefonica-wholesale.com/en/index.html (http://www.telefonica-wholesale.com/en/index.html). The FAQ is quite useful: http://www.bewholesale.co.uk/solutions/faqs/ (http://www.bewholesale.co.uk/solutions/faqs/).

The seems to be much work going on: http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/networking/2011/10/07/be-broadband-revamps-network-for-ipv6-40094136/ (http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/networking/2011/10/07/be-broadband-revamps-network-for-ipv6-40094136/).

I think they are probably using the BE Wholesale service.

Hi all.  :)

Is there much demand for this?  I emailed support two days ago and haven't heard anything back yet.  Just wondering if they are getting hammered with requests.  :)

If there's any chance of improvement on my 1.8MB line I want to grab it with both hands.  :laugh:

Thanks!

I haven't had any feedback on takeup, Jimbo. Does your exchange have Be/O2 LLU?

Just checked, Jimbo. Support don't have a request from you, could you email again - support at idnet.com?

Quote from: Rik on Oct 18, 2011, 17:16:59
Just checked, Jimbo. Support don't have a request from you, could you email again - support at idnet.com?

Thanks for checking Rik.  I'll send another one shortly.  (Thought it was odd, as usually they are pretty sharp on replying)...  I'm just being lazy and should call really.  ;D

Oh and yes, my Exchange has O2/Be.  Is that what is needed in order to do the switch?

Regards.

It is. :)

how can you tell what your exchange has and does it make any difference as to which one it uses

O2/Be are the same. They just both use their names when referring to each other. IE "We have o2 equipment in the exchange" actually means "we have Be equipment in the exchange."

Telefonica is the parent company of BE/O2 and is the Spanish equivalent of BT.

Wow.  Not sure if this is linked to the switch over that I've requested, but for the first time ever I'm sync'd at 2.8MB!  :o  That's a whole 1MB increase.  Long may it continue.  ;D  :fingers:

What are your other stats like, Jimbo, particularly d/s attenuation and noise margin? Have you tested your ping times to www.idnet.com?

Quote from: Rik on Oct 21, 2011, 18:23:26
What are your other stats like, Jimbo, particularly d/s attenuation and noise margin? Have you tested your ping times to www.idnet.com?

Hi Rik, now your getting technical.  ;)  OK, let's see...

Downspeed - 2756000
SNR Margin - 6dB
Loop Attn - 59dB
TX CRC errs - 73
RX CRC errs - 133

C:\>ping www.idnet.com

Pinging www.idnet.com [212.69.36.10] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=46ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=37ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=39ms TTL=59
Reply from 212.69.36.10: bytes=32 time=37ms TTL=59

Ping statistics for 212.69.36.10:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 37ms, Maximum = 46ms, Average = 39ms

C:\>pathping www.idnet.com

Tracing route to www.idnet.com [212.69.36.10] over a maximum of 30 hops:
  0  James-PC [192.168.x.x]
  1  192.168.x.x
  2  telehouse-gw4-lo2.idnet.net [212.69.63.99]
  3  telehouse-gw5-e4-400.idnet.net [212.69.63.245]
  4  redbus-gw2-g0-1-331.idnet.net [212.69.63.5]
  5  redbus-gw1-fa2-0-300.idnet.net [212.69.63.225]
  6  www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10]

Computing statistics for 150 seconds...

                 Source to Here       This Node/Link
Hop  RTT    Lost/Sent = Pct       Lost/Sent = Pct           Address
  0                                                                           James-PC [192.168.x.x]
                                               0/ 100 =  0%                            |
  1    3ms     0/ 100 =  0%         0/ 100 =  0%             192.168.x.x
                                               0/ 100 =  0%                            |
  2   50ms     0/ 100 =  0%        0/ 100 =  0%             telehouse-gw4-lo2.idnet.net [212.69.63.99]
                                               0/ 100 =  0%                            |
  3   49ms     0/ 100 =  0%        0/ 100 =  0%             telehouse-gw5-e4-400.idnet.net [212.69.63.245]
                                               0/ 100 =  0%                            |
  4   56ms     0/ 100 =  0%        0/ 100 =  0%             redbus-gw2-g0-1-331.idnet.net [212.69.63.5]
                                               0/ 100 =  0%                            |
  5   50ms     0/ 100 =  0%        0/ 100 =  0%             redbus-gw1-fa2-0-300.idnet.net [212.69.63.225]
                                               0/ 100 =  0%                            |
  6   48ms     0/ 100 =  0%        0/ 100 =  0%             www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10]

Trace complete.

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1547899649.png)

I'm taking this opportunity to download a lot of updates whilst I have the speed.  Hope that info makes more sense to you Rik!  8-)

Oh should also say, I'm not sure if it is to do with the switch as IDNet support said it wouldn't be until the 27th.  But I'm not complaining.  ;D

Can you recall what your pings times used to be? Looking at the tracert, I get the same number of hops on the BT line, but 2 less on the Telefonica one. Also, your upload speed suggests you're not on ADSL2+. Can you still run a test via the BT speed tester?

Fwiw, BT seem to be tweaking DLM atm, my profile is currently 3916k on a 4440k connection. Normally, that would be 3500k.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 22, 2011, 03:09:26
Can you recall what your pings times used to be? Looking at the tracert, I get the same number of hops on the BT line, but 2 less on the Telefonica one. Also, your upload speed suggests you're not on ADSL2+. Can you still run a test via the BT speed tester?

Fwiw, BT seem to be tweaking DLM atm, my profile is currently 3916k on a 4440k connection. Normally, that would be 3500k.

Hi Rik, no sorry I don't recall what my ping times used to be, or if they have indeed changed.  Yeah, I'm not on ADSL2+ as it was quite unstable for me so IDNet switched me back to ADSL but let me keep the allowance increase.  Funnily enough, I can't run the BT speed tester.  I've tried both Firefox and IE and it just sits on "checking details".  I left it running for 20 minutes and nothing changed, so I'm not quite sure what's going on there.  :dunno:

Could be sulking, which it's prone to do, Jimbo. Ideally, we want to see an error message saying it can't carry out the test as that would confirm the LLU connection.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 22, 2011, 17:24:16
Could be sulking, which it's prone to do, Jimbo. Ideally, we want to see an error message saying it can't carry out the test as that would confirm the LLU connection.

Sorry for the late reply Rik.  Yeah I think it must know I'm being switched and it's sulking.  :)  I'll post back some stats after the date Support gave me, just to see if it differs from my early stuff.  Thanks again.

 :thumb:

This sounds very interesting to me, LLU based :), i forever have d/c issues with my line and low sync speeds which go up and down all the time. Current stats:

ADSL Link              Downstream      Upstream
Connection Speed    2272 kbps        540 kbps
Line Attenuation      57.5 db            31.4 db
Noise Margin           16.1 db            9.1 db

www.idnet.net ping:
min: 27ms max: 32ms avg: 29ms

If i ask support to switch my line, i understand that there would be no charge for it to turn back to a BT line. However if Idnet LLU line doesn't work for me can i switch back to Idnet 21cn? I am assuming here the LLU should give me a large sync increase has previously i have hold 4mb sync on my line using dmt tool, whats everyones advice? ???

If you've got disconnection issues, try and resolve them first. If you do make the switch and want to switch back, it will only be possible if your exchange is BT 21CN, if that were the case, I would have expected you to be on ADSL2+ already, which your upstream sync speed suggests you are, but possibly with a banded profile.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 27, 2011, 12:32:34
If you've got disconnection issues, try and resolve them first. If you do make the switch and want to switch back, it will only be possible if your exchange is BT 21CN, if that were the case, I would have expected you to be on ADSL2+ already, which your upstream sync speed suggests you are, but possibly with a banded profile.

I beleive i am all ready on ADSL2+, the exchange i am is Bradwell Abbey which has BT 21cn. I am sure i am also on a banded profile which i belive LLU would remove. the D/c issues i did try to resolve the issue was around using the land line phone, if the phone was simply called the broadband would drop. I tried serveral different filters etc and a "i-plate" but no luck. I was offered for BT to come out and look etc but i didn't want to pay the bills if they cant find the fault. So i am guessing LLU based would hopefully improve the issues and increase my sync is this correct?

LLU won't affect the disconnect issue, unfortunately, as the underlying technology is the same. It sounds to me like you have an HR fault, which causes those symptoms (provided you've tried at least a couple of other filters, I'd bet on it). What LLU will give you is the ability for IDNet to directly tweak the line, and no profiles, so throughput will be much closer to sync speed.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 27, 2011, 13:58:41
LLU won't affect the disconnect issue, unfortunately, as the underlying technology is the same. It sounds to me like you have an HR fault, which causes those symptoms (provided you've tried at least a couple of other filters, I'd bet on it). What LLU will give you is the ability for IDNet to directly tweak the line, and no profiles, so throughput will be much closer to sync speed.

Not sure what at HR fault is and whether I can do anything about it. However the d/c issue are not too bad as I don't use the landline. So overall I should switching to llu and if all else fails I can't put it back

It's a high resistance joint, which acts a bit like an old crystal set and puts RF noise on the line, causing BB to lose sync.

Sounds interesting, is the a home user fix to that? I'm sending the email to ident asking about the llu

No, it's a BT job, the trick is to get them to acknowledge the fault exists, but it is quite common.

Quote from: Rik on Oct 27, 2011, 16:14:59
the trick is to get them to acknowledge the fault exists

>:(  ;)

Indeed. :)

Umm that is my dilemma then, I don't want to have to pay any charges to bt grrrr. Never mine as I tend not to use the phone. I'll just the the llu so if it does drop it won't get banded like it does ATM.

Have support tested the line?

Last time was a good few months ago, and they said bt would need to be called out but they may charge. I've just left it,

If I'm right, you'll take the problem with you to BE unless the joint happens to be in the exchange, where it may be cured in the wiring changeover required to connect you to the LLU equipment. OTOH, LLU will penalise you less.

Umm yes I think I will see what support say, I have to send in a email. Also for anyone else wondering once switched on can't go back for three months.

Thanks for that, hadn't heard it before, they must have a 90-day contract with Telefonica.

Well today is the 27th, but, I can't tell if I've been moved over or not.  ???

Do I need to reboot my Router or anything?  :dunno:

I tried the BT Speed Test but it still refuses to work as before, just sits and does nothing.

Thanks again.

I see from the TBB main site that Entanet has now entered into a strategic partnership with BE Wholesale. Is there potential for LLU congestion problems in the months to come? That said, it is good to see independent ISPs looking for ways to increase ADSL competition.

Quote from: Jimbo on Oct 27, 2011, 18:38:40
Well today is the 27th, but, I can't tell if I've been moved over or not.  ???

Do I need to reboot my Router or anything?  :dunno:

I tried the BT Speed Test but it still refuses to work as before, just sits and does nothing.

Thanks again.

I didn't reboot the router, Jimbo. Check the logs and see if there's been a resync - there would have to be if you've moved. Also check your sync speed up and down, see if they look different.

Quote from: Ardua on Oct 28, 2011, 10:27:24
I see from the TBB main site that Entanet has now entered into a strategic partnership with BE Wholesale. Is there potential for LLU congestion problems in the months to come? That said, it is good to see independent ISPs looking for ways to increase ADSL competition.

There's always a potential for congestion, but one would hope Be wouldn't want to get the same reputation as BT.

Small update:

LLU line ordered and should be completed by Friday.

 :thumb:

Even if there is congestion, it seems IDNet are willing to switch you back if wanted. It's always a risk.

I am quite content on the Telefonica network at the moment. Downloading at 1.5MB/s feels civilised... ;)

I note that my SNR margin varies quite hugely depending on time of day. When I first looked at the average (12dB!) I was surprised at this, but between 6pm and 8pm every day it goes all the way to 6dB, which would be why I'm at 13Mbit or so instead of any higher.

Presumably, your line is picking up more noise on the frequencies now in use. My line has been the same, partly because it's running faster and with a lower target NM than when it was a BT connection.

Is there any indication when IPv6 addresses will be assigned on the LLU service? My router hasn't received one since the switch 2 weeks ago.

Thanks  :)

Quote from: Steve on Oct 13, 2011, 09:10:10
As far as I am aware it's not full LLU, the voice connection stays as is.

Just to clarify.

The Be network, which is what we are talking about, as O2 runs on it, (Telefonica bought Be for the purpose), is SMPF.  That means the phone and broadband are independent.  The phone line can be with any WLR (Wholesale Line Rental) provider that is willing to accept a Be connection.  BT, the Post Office and clearly IDNet are obvious candidates.  There are others but a list is pointless. Just ask.  (I don't visit here a lot, but a PM on tbb forums will always get me).

Regarding migration away from this SMPF, a normal MAC is all that is needed.  No need to revert to a BT circuit on IDNet as has been suggested. In my case I moved from Newnet (BT-based) to O2 LLU and then to IDNet FTTC. It is only MPF (where the phone has gone LLU as well) where there can be a problem.

Additionally, there have been a couple of concerns about routers.  One at least has been resolved, but for anyone else coming along, as .GRISS. hinted at, a Broadcom based router is best to match with the Be Broadcom DSLAMs, because features only available on Broadcom are implemented by Be to improve overall line performance. Good ones available on eBay are Netgear 834v4, 834Gv4, 834GT, 834Nv1. Avoid 834v1, v2, v3, v5(if it exists), 834Gv1, v2,v3 v5 (it does exist), and 834Nv2. Then there are later models of Netgear and others, but moving out of my sphere.

Quote from: RobertoS on Oct 30, 2011, 22:12:56
One at least has been resolved, but for anyone else coming along, as .GRISS. hinted at, a Broadcom based router is best to match with the Be Broadcom DSLAMs, because features only available on Broadcom are implemented by Be to improve overall line performance. Good ones available on eBay are Netgear 834v4, 834Gv4, 834GT, 834Nv1. Avoid 834v1, v2, v3, v5(if it exists), 834Gv1, v2,v3 v5 (it does exist), and 834Nv2. Then there are later models of Netgear and others, but moving out of my sphere.

Griss?!?  ;D

Mi dispiace  :).  Il vino rosso parla. (Sorry! The red wine speaks). At least I acknowledged you raised the point early on.

o well i don't jave 02/be on my exchange so no llu for me

Quote from: RobertoS on Oct 30, 2011, 22:12:56
a Broadcom based router is best to match with the Be Broadcom DSLAMs, because features only available on Broadcom are implemented by Be to improve overall line performance.

How can one find out if a particular router is 'Broadcom'?

Sean

Quote from: RobertoS on Oct 30, 2011, 22:44:35
Mi dispiace  :).  Il vino rosso parla. (Sorry! The red wine speaks). At least I acknowledged you raised the point early on.

Go on, admit it, you're just an Olivia Newton John fan.  :laugh:

Quote from: SSK on Oct 31, 2011, 09:50:31
How can one find out if a particular router is 'Broadcom'?

Sean

Thomson 510v6, 536v6, 546v6, 585v6, 585v7, 780WL

Netgear DG834Gv4, DG834v4, DM111P, DG834GT, DG834Nv1, DG834PN

D-Link DSL-300B, DSL-2542B, DSL-2640B, DSL-2740B

I think that I am right in saying that the Billion 7800N could also be added to the above list. That said, given that most broadband issues are IMHO related to the quality of the piece of wire between the exchange and one's home, internal and external noise, WLAN interference, failed filters etc what, in simple terms, can the end user expect if his router has a Broadcom rather than A N Other chipset? I tried a Netgear 3300 on my line (also a Broadcom I think) and it synched at about 12Mbps. My present router with a non-Broadcom chipset happily chugs along at 17.5Mbps. I am convinced that the only reason for the difference in synch rates is a line improvement over time. I just have this vision of a mountain of unloved non-Broadcom modems as users try to reach Broadband Utopia - hence the question.

Wooo!

Looks like I've been switched, a bit later than planned.  ;)

Internet just went off before and so I checked the Draytek Syslog tool to see that I've re-connected at:-

DOWN SPEED - 2048000
UP SPEED - 864000
SNR MARGIN - 6
LOOP ATT - 58

Average ping to www.idnet.com is now 38ms (max ping was 39ms) and the tracert to www.idnet.com is now two hops shorter (as Rik said it would be).  ;D

All in all, quite pleased compared to my original stats (posted on Pg.6), my "max" ping has dropped by 7ms.  "Average" has dropped by 1ms.  My upload speed looks to have doubled and download speed reduced slightly but still very good for my poor line.  SNR Margin seems to be the same and I have a slightly reduced Loop Attenuation by 1dB.


(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1565803500.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)

(http://www.pingtest.net/result/49660186.png) (http://www.pingtest.net)


When is the best time to reboot a router to achieve the best sync? :)

Cheers!

QuoteI have a slightly reduced Loop Attenuation by 1dB.

Yes, my attenuation dropped by 3db (or roughly 8%) when I was switched to LLU. Was pleased with that!

Normally to get the highest sync you woul resync in the morning. However, every line is different so I normally recommend running routerstats for 24/48 hours an looking for the highest point on the noise margin graph.

I should be making the switch today :)

Quote from: mk1 on Nov 01, 2011, 09:16:23
I should be making the switch today :)

And what about your broadband?  >:D

Quote from: Lance on Nov 01, 2011, 14:39:22
And what about your broadband?  >:D

;D

Quote from: Lance on Oct 31, 2011, 23:30:56
Normally to get the highest sync you woul resync in the morning. However, every line is different so I normally recommend running routerstats for 24/48 hours an looking for the highest point on the noise margin graph.

It seems I feel foul of this as ADSL2 is touchy when it comes to SNR. It happened that a brief IDNet maintenance outage appeared to cause it to resync to a higher rate (~13.5Mbit), which then on Sunday meant at peak time the SNR Margin fell very low (4dB) which caused the line to drop. I'm now sitting at a quite frankly silly 14-15 dB SNR Margin (at off peak of course) but it's definitely stable now, which is what I want!

The IDNet work could not (well, should not) have caused a resync, it certainly didn't for me. For your NM to be 15db suggests that either you've had a lot of resyncs or that the noise has gone away leaving you with a larger NM - in which case a forced resync should restore your speed.

No DLM on Be so you should be able to find from support at what level the NM is set at, as an adjustment downwards maybe possible.

Good point, Steve.  :red:

Quote from: esh on Nov 01, 2011, 15:48:07
It seems I feel foul of this as ADSL2 is touchy when it comes to SNR. It happened that a brief IDNet maintenance outage appeared to cause it to resync to a higher rate (~13.5Mbit), which then on Sunday meant at peak time the SNR Margin fell very low (4dB) which caused the line to drop. I'm now sitting at a quite frankly silly 14-15 dB SNR Margin (at off peak of course) but it's definitely stable now, which is what I want!

4dB is a perfectly reasonable level for a noise margin and should not cause a re-sync.  A variation of 4dB over 24 hours is perfectly normal, hence the Be and BT defaults of 6dB at sync-time. The latest BT one even drops it automatically to 3dB on stable lines, and Be has a 3dB option that a lot of people use.

Having said that, if you have a Speedtouch 586 router, I found both mine could only hold sync as low as 3.5dB, so any tiny spike below that caused a re-sync. As my 24-hour variation was also 3.5dB, using the standard 6dB setting meant daily drops. I stopped using them and swapped to Netgears, which hold to 0dB, which by definition is what should happen.

Well i guess BT or whoever didnt do the work today as the email said it would be sometime today before 6pm! router has'nt dropped once.  :(

Has your sync speed changed at all. Mine happened so quickly I didn't actually notice it.

No nothing has changed, i would have thought the router would also pick up the disconnection in the log?

Hi I've been moved to LLU today and I'm syncing at a higher speed 11540 it was about 7750, but the line seems to be disconnecting quite frequently and my SNR downstream is only 1.6, upstream SNR is 6.6

Do you think it will settle to a slightly higher SNR?

(Billion 7800n router)

Maybe I'm talking nonsense then. But it just seems that I got a very low chunk of SNR at the weekend and then it promptly glitched and you can see it goes up (now at lower speed).

Graph with rolling average

(http://garagos.net/static/snr.png)


Also an SNR margin of 1.6 sounds very low, gwidnet. I suspect your speed will decrease as it resyncs a few times and the SNR margin will go up again.

I think it should settle with higher SNR and you have the ability with the 7800N I believe to adjust it (unofficially)..




At your own risk http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1567481

Yes thanks both, I agree it's a bit low, I think I'll just see if it settles a bit higher. I can set the snr, I thought it was only to adjust it down, but of course it will probably work to adjust it up as well.

@esh
There is something seriously wrong there esh. If it wasn't doing that before you were moved, I suggest that either the connection at the exchange is dodgy, or your router needs a firmware upgrade.

Quote from: mk1 on Nov 01, 2011, 18:14:55
Well i guess BT or whoever didnt do the work today as the email said it would be sometime today before 6pm! router has'nt dropped once.  :(

My mistake i can't read! The change over to LLU is Tue 7 November! :red:

Close. ;)

Quote from: RobertoS on Nov 01, 2011, 21:12:59
@esh
There is something seriously wrong there esh. If it wasn't doing that before you were moved, I suggest that either the connection at the exchange is dodgy, or your router needs a firmware upgrade.

Sorry, could you clarify for me what specifically *is* wrong? The problem being, I changed router to get ADSL2 because my old modem was only ADSL1. So I was assuming these features are just typical to ADSL2. If something is wrong I don't know whether it would be LLU, the router, or the exchange. Just to say, the line is very clean; I have hardly any RX/TX errors. The dips in SNR margin I see on the graph are at fairly predictable peak times, typically 6-8pm and most of the weekend.

Also, regarding loop attenutation, I can confirm mine dropped by about 1dB to 29dB.

UPDATE:

I think somehow i may have moved to LLU and WOW:

Pre LLU

Sync download: 2471kpbs Noise margin: 14.6
Sync Upload:     770kpbs  Noise margin: 5.1

After

Download 4327 Noise: 5.1
Upload     1060 Noise 6.3

Speed test:

Pre: 2.2mbps/0.6mbps
LLU: 3.66/0.9

I am a very happy customer hope it sticks?

It would be worth checking whether IDNet could reduce your d/s target noise margin. They did mine and gained me 500k over BT, more when you take the profile out of the equation.

Umm that's maybe a good idea, I also need to ask them why the website says my package is no longer ADSL2+ its just ADSL?

I'll be interested to hear the answer to that.

The account portal for LLU is currently bugged. Almost none of them say ADSL2+ even when it is. I think they are working on this.

Thanks, esh. :)

Quote from: mk1 on Nov 07, 2011, 21:51:23
Umm that's maybe a good idea, I also need to ask them why the website says my package is no longer ADSL2+ its just ADSL?

Given your low(ish) speeds then it make sense to place you on ADSL rather than ADSL2+. All ADSL2+ would do is increase your attenuation slightly and you wouldn't see any benefit from the extra speed offered by ADSL2+ anyway.

So got idnet to tweek the snr results are:
Sync D/l is 4953kbps Noise Margin: 3.1
Sync U/l is 1157 Noise Margin 3.1

So slightly better sync (not had time to speed test) but this is causing more drop outs, i think i will settle for the previous setting as the optimum.

Griff:

How does ADSL make the noise on the line lower? Surely the Line Attenuation is the same whichever? (note: i have a very bad line) Attenuation is 58 down and 32.9 up

Attenuation is a function of frequency and resistance. The latter stays more or less the same, but ADSL2+ uses higher frequencies which increases attenuation.

Quote from: mk1 on Nov 09, 2011, 11:57:10
Griff:

How does ADSL make the noise on the line lower? Surely the Line Attenuation is the same whichever? (note: i have a very bad line) Attenuation is 58 down and 32.9 up

Rik beat me to the answer above.

I see but i guess the thoughput would be lower on adsl? I think i am just going to get it put back to 6db

Quote from: mk1 on Nov 09, 2011, 13:59:42
I see but i guess the thoughput would be lower on adsl? I think i am just going to get it put back to 6db

Nope throughput would be slightly higher on ADSL due to slightly less attenuation.

Griff beat me to that answer. ;)

The attenuation figure you see on the router web page is a value measured at a specific frequency (normally 100Khz or some vendors I've seen use 300Khz). I believe the router also analyses attenuation for each tone, but the value most people see is the one measured at said specific frequency. At least that's my understanding :D