As I'm finally able to access my line stats I can for the first time in over a year see the amount of errors accruing on my line.
Image taken at 12:50 -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/1de01fca.jpg)
Image taken at 14:20 -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/586506fb.jpg)
The errors that appear in the first image all appeared within 2 minutes of the modem syncing. After another 90 minutes you can see how much they have increased.
Is it worth contacting Idnet or will it be dismissed out of hand?
Good question, as your not supposed to know the error rates. >:D Personally I find it difficult to interpret as I've no idea what is an acceptable error rate for vdsl2 . They need to be taken in conjunction with the amount of data transferred during this time period as well which I'm guessing is not that much. Also the FEC count is low does that mean interleave is not set high enough as to me it's not working effectively?
Quote from: Steve on Sep 08, 2011, 15:41:25
Good question, as your not supposed to know the error rates. >:D
That had crossed my mind. Far easier to dodge the question by blaming the user for being proactive rather than dealing with the issue at hand. BT wouldn't do that.. Would they? :evil:
I'm with Steve, Griff, you are not supposed to be able to know your error rate, so I doubt BT would be prepared to do anything. You can ask support, and they may have an idea of what could be done, but I suspect a request to BT might result in a suspension of service for a breach of contract terms.
Purely out of interest, and not wanting to be awkward - honestly I'm not, at which point in the order process did I agree to such a contract Rik?
It may be different for other DSL products but ordering FTTC via Idnet consisted of filling out a simple form and getting an email acknowledgement. This is (was) followed by a final email asking for confirmation that the order be placed with BT and asking if I wanted Idnet to supply the a router. There was no confirmation of T&C's at any point.
Reading through the various "T&C's" on the Idnet website there's lots of reference specifically to ADSL but nothing about FTTC/VDSL2. The only mention I can find to the OR Modem is a generic reference to using the supplied equipment in agreement with the manufacturers terms and conditions but no further information or elaboration than that.
Like I said I'm not trying to be awkward, honestly. But I find it rather pathetic that the end user is able to demonstrate there's an issue somewhere and then to be told I don't have the right to know that information. It's laughable.
I suspect that:
QuoteThe only mention I can find to the OR Modem is a generic reference to using the supplied equipment in agreement with the manufacturers terms and conditions but no further information or elaboration than that.
would cover it Griff, even if you've never seen them. BT clearly don't want to allow people access to the data, so would probably class the hack in the same way as they do working on their side of the master socket. I'm not against what you've done, personally I think we have a right to know, but I suspect BT have got this covered in some small print somewhere.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 08, 2011, 16:15:40
I suspect that:
would cover it Griff, even if you've never seen them. BT clearly don't want to allow people access to the data, so would probably class the hack in the same way as they do working on their side of the master socket. I'm not against what you've done, personally I think we have a right to know, but I suspect BT have got this covered in some small print somewhere.
Cheers Rik.
I guess I should count myself lucky. There's plenty out there who would give their right arm for my connection but it's just annoying when you know it's "not quite right" and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.
It's still early days yet Griff, alternative vdsl2 modems will appear, stats therefore will be discussed with support at various ISPs . I wonder what BTs response will be.
I had a quiet chat with support, no names. They are not sure how BT would react, but they tell me they can't raise a fault based simply on error count, BT would not recognise that as a fault. No sync, yes, low speed, yes, error count, what...
The modems are interrogated by BT, as was mentioned in a link elsewhere, so if BT found changes, they would invalidate the warranty and getting a new one might involve paying a new installation fee - but this is speculation, because it hasn't happened to anyone yet. Fwiw...
Quote from: Rik on Sep 08, 2011, 16:32:10
The modems are interrogated by BT, as was mentioned in a link elsewhere, so if BT found changes, they would invalidate the warranty and getting a new one might involve paying a new installation fee
My original modem, as supplied as part of my service, is completely untouched. The modem I'm currently using is a spare I doubt there's any warranty on that one to invalidate in the first place ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/de6b8276.jpg)
(Only positioned like that for the photo)
;D
If BT found an invalid firmware would they suspend the service? I guess we won't know the answer to that for awhile.
I know there's little that can be done but I'm going to document the number of errors even if just for reference.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/0b5adf1e.jpg)
Any idea how much data is being transferred between readings, Griff?
Quote from: Rik on Sep 08, 2011, 17:39:44
Any idea how much data is being transferred between readings, Griff?
Not much at all Rik.
All I've done this afternoon is browse the web and sent a couple of emails. I've not even used Youtube or anything remotely bandwidth intensive.
If I remember I'll take another reading last thing tonight before I turned off the PC and then another reading when I turn it back on tomorrow. The only bandwidth use in between those hours will be the TBB QM pinging the router.
It will be interesting to see if error rate is proportional to data transferred.
It would be informative if you could get a comparison from another user as what your seeing may be relatively normal for BT's implementation of FTTC.
Quote from: Steve on Sep 08, 2011, 18:02:06
It would be informative if you could get a comparison from another user as what your seeing may be relatively normal for BT's implementation of FTTC.
I've asked someone else for their error count for a comparison.
Rik in answer to your earlier question about how much data has been transferred I've found the relevant page in the CP.
80218459 bytes which I make out to be about 77MB.
So not all that much really.
About 1 CRC error per 528 bytes. I wonder what the packet size is for VDSL?
I think a crc error rate of 0.2% is probably acceptable, well I thought anything less than 1% for adsl was :dunno:
See page 43 http://www.broadbandreports.com/r0/download/1456040~fe59ec9cfe508f4d71494c761cae14c7/vdsl2.pdf
Quote from: Rik on Sep 08, 2011, 18:20:08
About 1 CRC error per 528 bytes. I wonder what the packet size is for VDSL?
There's only 12 pages, Glenn.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 08, 2011, 18:37:04
There's only 12 pages, Glenn.
The document starts on page 36 Rik. Page 43 made my head hurt lol
Ah... I'll get some paracetamol first then. :)
I see what you mean, Griff. :stars:
I didn't say I knew the answer, but it should be there somewhere.
lol..
If it helps I have now received 101118355 bytes and the packet count is 316590. The same page says "Cell errors" of 3828.
Quote from: Steve on Sep 08, 2011, 18:02:06
It would be informative if you could get a comparison from another user as what your seeing may be relatively normal for BT's implementation of FTTC.
This is another FTTC users error log after about four hours uptime -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/a5b6bf20.jpg)
Compare that with my 5.30pm screenshot and there's a massive difference.
I agree,it's almost as if your sync is set too high and all you get is a load of errors. Trouble is what the heck you do about it I've no idea.
Right it's sleepy time for Griff so here's the latest error count. Nothing will be using the connection until I post again tomorrow.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/b13848df.jpg)
I've just turned the Pc back on and taken another screenshot -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/fcd73424.jpg)
Between 00.10AM and 11.05AM NO DEVICE was connected to the internet. The only activity taking place was the Thinkbroadband Quality Monitor pinging my router.
Other FTTC users typically have CRC errors in the double figures whereas in less than 24 hours I have over 1million. 500,000 of which took place in the middle of the night when I wasn't even using the internet!!
The vdsl modem your using Griff do you know it's history?
Quote from: Steve on Sep 09, 2011, 11:23:08
The vdsl modem your using Griff do you know it's history?
Brand new out of a sealed box. Latest model/revision "2B" and it left the factory on 22nd June 2011.
My friend who obtained it for me is an Openreach manager.
Pertinent comments from another FTTC user (and somewhat expert) on TBB -
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4042173-re-how-do-my-stats-look.html
QuoteIt's a bit odd. What's become obvious now that we have a few SNR graphs is that griff_90 has a noisy line - at least compared to mine and Orly's.
If you look at his noise graph he's getting measurements of about -115 to -120 dBm/Hz whereas Orly's (and my - will post graphs later) is -135dBm/Hz.
BUT his SNRs are actually better than either mine or Orly's, presumably because of a short line and low attenuations, so he really should be getting a better sync.
I note that the attainable rate in the pic he posted was 44.5Mbps whereas his sync was only 38Mbps - it looks like he has a bit of a noisy line with some diurnal variation which ultimately is hurting his max sync a bit.
Note that VDSL because of the large bandwidths is sensitive to small drops in the reported SNRM figures. On mine an 0.3dB drop in SNRM wiped over 600Kbps off the attainable speed.
Ever since December last year I've had issues with this connection. In January two OR engineers spent an entire afternoon at my property testing all the internal wiring, sockets, and performing repeated tests on the line. Each time they performed a test (which took about 10 minutes) the error count kept rising. They changed something over in the distribution point in the communal hallway (I live in apartments) and carried on performing tests. After four hours the errors kept rising the longer they left the tests running and they eventually left saying there was nothing more they could do.
A few days later Idnet informed me that "the problem" was fixed and that was the end of the matter as far as they were concerned. However ever since Christmas my IP Profile has bounced up and down, the interleaving level has increased and my TBB QM shows a lot of packet loss. Combine all that with the fact I'm now able to prove over 1million errors occurred on my line in the last 24 hours and it all points to a problem.
What I'm trying to work out is whether the dip to -135 is good or bad , my guess is that it's bad as if you reference that with your putty.log the margin for that group of tones is reduced, oddly it picks out one particular group and then recovers. I guess noise from somewhere is being induced into the broadband signal , goodness knows how you find it as any of your neighbours could be the source.
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,26821.msg640235.html#msg640235
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,26821.msg640119.html#msg640119
I think I'll just live with it Steve.
It's annoying but practically impossible to resolve and I certainly don't want to get high blood pressure trying to get to the bottom of it.
I'm almost reluctant to post this for fear of tempting fate but here goes.
I guessing part of the problem perhaps is where the master socket is installed in my property. It's basically in one corner of the lounge right next to two satellite feeds, the aerial feeds and numerous electrical points. So within a very small footprint there's the modem, an LCD TV, Sky+ HD box, home cinema, WDTV Live and DECT phone. All of which could be potential sources of interference I guess.
As a result I turned of all the electrical items and reset the modem. Five minutes later the error count was 10,000+. Damn... Resets modem again.
Then I disconnected the phone line and turned off the base station. Five minutes later the error count was 10,000+. Damn again... Resets modem again.
Scratching my head I'm walking round the room looking for any other electrical items I might have missed.. Nope can't see any.... wait a sec! I'd left both DECT handsets turned on. Let's try turning them off as well.
It's now been nearly 15 minutes and the error count is 76. Ok it's not zero but it's a lot better than 10,000+.
Has anyone else had issues with DECT handsets themselves in the past?
They are claimed to be a source of noise although I've not personally had an issue with them.My DECT handsets have a 'green setting' which reduces the wifi range etc whether it helps reduce interference I've no idea.
Like Steve, I've heard that they can cause noise problems but not had any issue myself. You would have thought that the base unit ( which is closer to the modem I assume ) is going to be more of a problem than the handsets...
Edit: that's a point Steve, my handsets ( Siemens ) have a similar mode which is enabled.
I'm not sure whether with the base station off you will also get more interference as the phones will be searching for the base station.
Looks like I tempted fate after all.
CRC errors 38531
FEC errors 917
HEC errors 12595
Oh well. Thanks anyway guys. I'm off to bang my head against the wall.
I turned my DECT handset and base station off about a month ago as part of a test to see if I get better performance from my line but I haven't seen any difference in all honesty.
From my experience it's nice to dig up these numbers but it sets the brain in motion and begins a long process of analysis and testing which normally doesn't yield anything productive :)
You're getting good sync speeds, as long as the DLM is happy then I personally wouldn't worry too much about it (athough like you, I would be occupied with trying to understand why). An example here with my line - when sync'd at 13991 the CRC error count sits almost perfectly at zero. When the line is sync'd at 15477 the CRC count stacks up at quite a rapid rate (around 100000+ per day). Both speeds are perfectly stable and I haven't seen any drops but the DLM clearly prefers the slower profile. Now I would much rather see the higher sync speed because despite having to resend a greater percentage of packets the net result is a faster line with quicker downloads. I don't understand how the DLM works but perhaps in your case it decided to tolerate the CRC errors on the basis that the line is stable, instead of lowering the sync speed by a few thousand kbps.
I still can't get these errors out of my head. Every day that goes by another FTTC user unlocks his/her modem and provides their stats ALL of which have little to no errors at all.
I can't dig up my street so I'm resorting to crawling around my building looks for clues as to what is causing the interference on the lines and I might have a couple of leads.
Firstly the BT distribution point for the five apartments in under the stairs in a small cupboard along with the main electricity feed into the building and five electricity meters and all the associated cabling. Is that a potential issue?
Secondly when they built these apartments seven years ago they were the last to be built out of the whole development and they literally rushed to finish them with the quality of fittings and finish suffering as a result. In the lounge they located the BT master socket in a corner and literally surrounded it with electricity points and satellite feeds. Again could this be a source of interference?
(And before anyone says it I'm going to pick up a cheap portable radio this afternoon)
Quote from: .Griff. on Sep 20, 2011, 13:16:29
Firstly the BT distribution point for the five apartments in under the stairs in a small cupboard along with the main electricity feed into the building and five electricity meters and all the associated cabling. Is that a potential issue?
Secondly when they built these apartments seven years ago they were the last to be built out of the whole development and they literally rushed to finish them with the quality of fittings and finish suffering as a result. In the lounge they located the BT master socket in a corner and literally surrounded it with electricity points and satellite feeds. Again could this be a source of interference?
(And before anyone says it I'm going to pick up a cheap portable radio this afternoon)
Yes, yes and good idea, Griff.
Engineer booked for Thursday.
Good luck! How has the fault been reported? Has it been based on the error count the average user wouldn't know about?
Reported a noise on the line (which there is intermittently).
I spoke to two of my neighbours (all in the same block) and they've also had problems with intermittent noise on the line.
Combine all that and the errors I've decided to request an OR visit. To be honest I wish I'd persued it more in January when OR confirmed errors on the line with their own equipment but fobbed me off about it.
:fingers: :fingers: :fingers: :fingers: :fingers: :fingers:
Start frying the bacon, Griff. ;D
Just spent 30 minutes chatting to an Openreach Coach I know. (Remember that OR modem I got the other week ;) )
I've explained everything, the intermittent noise during calls, the CRC errors, the fact my neighbours (in the same block) also hear intermittent noise, the previous OR guys seeing errors on their "Hawk" and he says in his experience it all points to noise on the line caused by a "HR" fault.
Apparently he's going to perform a remote "ACT" test tomorrow morning and call me with the results.
Unfortunately he lives in London so he can't exactly pop round and have a look himself.
Hopefully though he will be able to tell you exactly what to say to the engineer! He sounds like a very useful person to know.
Quote from: Lance on Sep 20, 2011, 22:35:57
Hopefully though he will be able to tell you exactly what to say to the engineer! He sounds like a very useful person to know.
He's been really helpful and a good mate.
That aside he also knows the pitfalls of, how shall I say, less "enthusiastic" Openreach engineers which is making me even more paranoid.
I'm now in a dilemma. Do I let the visit stand and risk someone turning up who runs a few basic tests and goes away saying there's no fault or hope an OR engineer, with the correct equipment, arrives and decides to take an interest.
Personally I believe I have more than enough evidence there's a fault either within my block or with the line leading into it but it's a gamble, financially too, which engineer turns up.
You only have to read Nialls extended thread to see some OR engineers differ in their approach to others. :-\
Indeed. Are all engineers equipped equally? If not, maybe you could suggest particular checks using particular pieces of equipment which might surprise them but also reinforce you know what you are talking about and that if you say there is a fault there must be one. Just be careful not to lay it on too much as people don't always take too well to suggestions!
Looks out of window for a white van... What are the chances he turns up at 5.59pm!
Well that didn't exactly go to plan but all is not lost.
As is ever so typical with BT none of the information had been passed onto the OR engineer so I had to explain all the relevant issues to him -
"the intermittent noise during calls, the CRC errors, the fact my neighbours (in the same block) also hear intermittent noise, the previous OR guys seeing errors on their "Hawk" "
He did a few basic checks and said OR had sent the wrong engineer and he had none of the relevant test equipment with him. He's arranging for another engineer to visit me who has the necessary equipment to diagnose the fault.
::)
No wonder BT keep increasing their charges, they have to meet the cost of all this incompetence and failure to communicate. :mad:
The BT agent I spoke to yesterday said he'd call me "personally" between 5pm and 6pm today to see how the engineer visit went. Do you think he called? Did he #@%$...
:shake:
BT speak with forked tongue. ;)
griff,
finally got my act together and can join in!
Initial stats:-
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k631/44_bh/OR_stats_23Sep11.png)
After 86 mins:-
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k631/44_bh/OR_stats_23Sep11-1.jpg)
It appears to confirm what you already know!
Cheers Joe. Looking good! Any idea how long your copper run is?
As for me I've had a txt from BT this morning saying the fault is outstanding and advising me to visit the BT website for an update. The website in turn tells me the engineer will be with me shortly (yesterday) and hasn't been updated since.
more than 250, less than 300 metres.
Quote from: joe on Sep 23, 2011, 18:18:33
more than 250, less than 300 metres.
Pretty much the same as me then. 300 metres according the OR engineer who originally installed it.
If you'd be kind enough to let me know your error count after 72 hours I'd appreciate it.
griff,
my graphs:-
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k631/44_bh/line_stats.jpg)
current status (21hrs 10mins):-
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k631/44_bh/OR_24Sep11.jpg)
Will repeat at 72hrs (Monday lunchtime).
BT couldn't get much more incompetent!! :mad:
I've just checked the "fault page" on their website (I've checked it multiple times each day) and it's just been updated to show an engineer will be attending at 8am on Tuesday morning.
No one has called me to arrange this, there's been no email(s) and there's been no txt's. If I hadn't checked their website multiple times each day I'd have had no idea of this visit and the engineer would have turned up with me at work.
:mad: :mad:
I doubt IDNet have been told yet, Griff. That's assuming he turns up, of course. ;)
I'm not blaming Idnet at all. They've got nothing to do with this.
I'm sure the engineer will turn up.. However it will probably be the wrong one yet again!!
Toes crossed for you. :)
griff,
As requested, after 72 hrs:-
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k631/44_bh/OR_26Sep11_72hrs.jpg)
Thanks Joe.
7000 crc errors compared with 2million for me :-\
Openreach are due here any minute now so I'll update this thread a little later.
Best of luck :fingers:
Isn't it sad that no one is at all surprised by this? :(
Hope something comes of this. To be honest I had the exact same treatment from Verizon in the USA. Maybe it's just telecomms companies.
Looking out of the window every time I hear a vehicle pull up is fast losing it's appeal. :(
The waiting game - something I've always hated. :(
Well what a wonderful afternoon that was!!
After waiting in all afternoon no one turned up. What really makes me angry is nobody had the common courtesy to call me and let me know what's happening. No phone call, no txt, no email and the fault page on their website still says the engineer will be here between 1pm and 6pm.
BT you're a joke!
Sadly, I bet no-one at BT has told IDNet either. :(
Sadly, I bet no one at BT has told anyone at BT either.
You're probably right, esh. It's almost criminal what BT can get away with, isn't it. >:(
What an absolute farce of a company! I'm literally shaking with anger at the moment.
Tuesday 20th September
I call BT to report a line fault and arrangements are made for an engineer to visit on the following Thursday (22nd) between 1pm and 6pm.
Wednesday 21st September
I call BT again to double check the engineer visit. I'm assured all the relevant information has been passed onto Openreach and that he would attend the following day (22nd). Finally I'm told that someone from BT would call me later that evening to see how the visit went.
Thursday 22nd September
2pm engineer arrives, 2.06pm engineer leaves. He said he didn't have the correct equipment, training or knowledge to deal with the fault and another visit would need to take place. He assured me he would pass on the details to BT/OR and they would be in touch. No follow up call from BT as promised the previous day.
Friday 23rd September
I receive a txt saying the fault was outstanding and I would be updated in due course.
Saturday 24th September
No contact from BT/OR
Sunday 25th September
No contact from BT/OR. Later that evening I check the "Fault page" on the BT website and a visit has been scheduled for Tuesday 27th AM slot without contacting me and without my consent. I change this appointment to Monday 26th PM slot and the visit is confirmed (see screenshot above)
Monday 26th September
No engineer arrives and I receive no contact from BT/OR at all.
6.10pm - I call BT and get through to a call center. I ask for the call to be transferred to the UK and I'm told this isn't possible. I then ask to make a complaint and outline everything above while the operator makes a note on the system. I'm given no apology at all and during the call "whooping" and "clapping" is heard in the background. Finally I'm given a reference number and the call is transferred to "BT faults".
6.22pm - Darren from BT faults answers the call. All of the above is relayed to him and he apologizes that no engineer turned up. He then contradicts himself by saying no visit is due to take place today and that I'm mistaken (see my screenshot above). He also informs me that there is a visit showing for tomorrow AM but nobody needs to enter my property as the previous engineer (the one without a JDSU/HAWK/EXFO and no training or knowledge of the issue) has deemed such a visit unnecessary. Darren then says he has no ability edit/amend the appointment. He's extremely polite and profusely apologizes but admits he doesn't know what to do about the mess.
I've now had two afternoons off work and I've no idea if an engineer is going to turn up tomorrow morning or not. Do I take the morning off work and hope an engineer with the correct equipment turns up or do I go into work and wait indefinitely for BR/OR to get in touch?
I'll finish by saying I'm a 34 year old male and no shrinking violet but after waiting in all afternoon and the two phone calls this evening nearly left me in tears. Partially because I'm so angry and partially because I can't believe what a farce it all is and no-one seems to be able to give me a straight answer.
My sympathies, Griff. It seems there's no end to this company's poor treatment of customers.
That is pretty impressive but not out of the ordinary for BT. At least you made the effort to make a complaint. I was so disheartened and exhausted after the last (5 week) cock-up when the phone lines were initially being sorted out here that I never bothered. I can't really recommend anything other than persistence. The method of operation appears to be something, possibly a cat, behind a keyboard somewhere that presses random buttons in response to calls. Occasionally, eventually, this creature shall press the right key that is relevant to your problem, but the majority of the time not. Persistence will get you there... usually.
griff,
I've found in the past with other companies, in my case not specifically BT, that a letter to the man/woman at the very top (Chairperson or whatever he/she is called) at least gets something done. Probably copied to the local MP. They get away with murder because they're allowed to. We're to readily fobbed off by the rank and file we normally have to deal with. If I were in your shoes I would go up the chain of command.
This might help, Griff:
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,24951.0.html
Thanks Simon.
Dependent upon anyone turning up tomorrow morning I'll be emailing BT and OR tomorrow afternoon.
I can only commiserate. I had a similar experience a year or two ago when OpenReach engineers failed to turn up to so many appointments, I lost count.
Up far too early for my liking :(
I'll update the thread at 1pm when hopefully someone has bothered to turn up.
Good luck, Griff, I understand your frustration - I'd be chewing door frames by this time. I think what gets to me most in these situations is that they demonstrate clearly that a company has absolutely no interest in you as a customer, iow they are telling you that you're of no consequence. The only way I've ever found to change that is to engage the CEO, or get the media interested.
QuoteFirstly the BT distribution point for the five apartments in under the stairs in a small cupboard along with the main electricity feed into the building and five electricity meters and all the associated cabling. Is that a potential issue?
Hello Griff
You're not alone on this one - take a look at these photos from my appartment. The telephone lines (in white) run up 3 floors inside each of these cupboards. Clearly in close proximity to a lot of electrical, sky TV and other lines!! For a long time I've suspected that some of the noise may be coming from here but I haven't yet verified this (the next option is to get an electrician in to run me a new telephone line down to the DP on the ground floor and keep it entirely clear of any other cables).
My line is about 1.5km in length and currently I'm seeing these stats:
Mode: ADSL2+ AnnexM EU-56
TPS-TC: ATM Mode
Trellis: U:OFF /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 5.4 5.1
Attn(dB): 23.5 13.5
Pwr(dBm): 20.6 13.0
Upstream rate = 1680 Kbps, Downstream rate = 15285 Kbps
Since Link time = 1 days 6 hours 29 min 59 sec
FEC: 38724 675
CRC: 143 144
ES: 106 137
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0In summary - I'm getting respectable speeds and very few significant errors at the moment . The speeds I'm getting are roughly in line with what you would expect from a 24db attenuation line of around 1.5km in length. So does this mean all the electrical wiring isn't really affecting my line? Perhaps it's not the source of really much noise at all. It's all a mystery! I am normally quite suspicious of anything like this but right now I'm finding it hard to point a finger at anything unusual.
In the past I have suffered from a load of noise and my line stats have been much lower/slower/worse than they are at the moment. The only thing I can verify that's remained constant is the wiring inside my building. Considering my line is running better at the moment than ever before again I can't suspect the internal wiring is the cause of any problems at all!
However.. it could be :P
I suppose every installation is different and in your case perhaps that wiring is indeed causing some noise and errors :D
Jez
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8281/wiringj.jpg)
Hi Jez..
My concerns about the electrical cables in my block being in very close proximity to the DP was dismissed straight away when I sent photos to my mate at Openreach. He said it was a standard new-build install and wouldn't in any way cause interference.
As far as today goes it's now 11.48am and no sign of an engineer.
Don't BT have to pay token compensation for failed appointments?
Quote from: Rik on Sep 27, 2011, 12:30:57
Don't BT have to pay token compensation for failed appointments?
I'm sure they'd find some excuse for not turning up.
However I must congratulate BT on inventing the time machine!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/301d8581.png)
Martlesham created it to explain the ever-slipping FTTC dates. ;)
1.10pm..
Anyone think an engineer turned up or anyone contacted me?
Lengthy complaint email sent to Mr Livingston and Ms Garfield of BT and Openreach. :mad:
You really couldn't make it up.
Just as I'm walking out of the door at 2pm an engineer turns up. Only problem is he's not been told anything and doesn't have the correct equipment or knowledge. I knew things weren't going well when he said "You know more about this stuff than me".
Apparently he's been informed to close the fault down and I need to start again from scratch.
So that's two afternoons and one morning off work just for two engineers to spend a combined total of 15 minutes telling me they've no knowledge or equipment necessary to investigate the fault and I'm back at square one.
Wonderful!
Quote from: .Griff. on Sep 27, 2011, 14:04:32
Only problem is he's not been told anything and doesn't have the correct equipment or knowledge.
....
I'd write something else but I really don't think there's anything more to say. This is becoming spectacularly disastrous even for the most famed of customer-hostile telecomms companies.
Time to complain to Ofcom too? Not that it would probably do much good, mind.
QuoteMr Griffiths,
Thank you for raising this with me, I will ensure my senior service team work with BT Retail to get matters addressed.
I apologise for the issues and appreciate you bringing these to my attention.
Regards
Olivia
Olivia Garfield
Chief Executive, Openreach
At least she had the courtesy to reply personally to my email!
That's something at least.
People have had replies from Ian too. ;)
Indeed. He was quite worried that I knew too much and must work for BT. Much more so than about my complaint. ;D
QuoteHi Mr Griffiths,
Thanks for your time earlier. I'm really sorry again for the problems you are having.
What I'm doing
I will liaise with Openreach to do an end to end check of your telephone line.
How to get in touch with me
As agreed, I'll give you a ring again tomorrow. But if you need me in the meantime give me a call on 01277 ******. Or drop me an email.
Don't worry
I'm dealing with this now. And I'll do my best to get things sorted out as quickly as I can.
Best wishes,
Victoria Kain
Executive Level Complaints
I'm just wondering if the phone number should have been made public? :-\
Probably not... Everyone made a note before we edit it? :evil:
I've edited it. It's probably not a publicly known direct line, and as she seems to be trying to help... :)
:)
You can always reinstate it if she doesn't. ;)
:evil:
Oops.. My mistake. Thanks for the edit.
:thumb:
At least it looks like some progress is finally being made with the complaint.
We hope. This could, of course, be a boiler-plate reply, written by a minion. :fingers:
A what? What's it got to do with boilers?
Have you seen who makes the replies. ;D
Update via phone.
I've had no calls from head office but am engineer has arrived out of the blue with no warning. Good job I was in.
He'd been told I couldn't make or receive any calls at all. Wtf!?!?
Anyway he had an exfo device and actually ran the test I've been asking for all along. Bang!! Errors all over the place. Next he foes the same at the cabinet and finds no errors so THERE IS a problem between the cab and my block just as I've been saying all along.
He's now waiting for someone to open the cover outside to investigate further.
Sounds like you're getting somewhere at last. Don't let this one escape!
Keep feeding him, Griff. :)
Another update (back on PC now).
Second engineer arrived and lifted lid/manhole/cover outside and performed another test with EXFO. Same result as before - errors. Line was swapped for another and tested - No errors. Engineer conclusion - my line was damaged and/or had a HR fault (remember where we've seen that mentioned before!).
Tested again at DP and master socket - no errors and sync has gone up to maximum available.
I'm very pleased for now as I feel vindicated in that there was a problem after all and I wasn't making things up or imagining the fault. I'll continue to monitor the connection and report back in a few days.
It's just a shame it took so much fuss and complaining to get to this stage.
It's a shame that you have to, but it also shows that going to the top gets results.
Congratulations griff :) :). Let's see those better stats when you can for comparison purposes.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/097e3f08.jpg)
There you go Joe.
:o
Are you sure your modem is connected to the Internet? That's astonishing!
1 FEC error! Call that engineer back :D
I would say that's fixed.
great figures griff, a tad better than mine! what are the attenuations in pbParams?
You deserve a karma for persistence, Griff. Great result. :thumb:
Certainly looks like a cracking line you now have! Might I suggest a brief email thanking the manager who got things going? I imagine they receive lots if complaints but little thanks!
Voice of experience, Lance? ;)
I'm mainly thanks and little complaints, but I'm working on it! ;D
:hehe:
Griff, I think you need a big vote of thanks for the work you have done here! :karma:
I much admire your persistence. As a result we are all forewarned of the susceptibility of FTTC to DC noise. Moreover we have been given an object lesson in how to deal with BT and, dare I say it, with ISPs too. (Your mobile number is given at post 75 BTW)
Not much point in ranting about Openreach/BT, except to say that it is sad they can't manage to provide a line with basic DC integrity. We are not talking about the finer points of RF perturbation of phase modulation in frequency division transmission, but tightening up the screws so the joints don't crackle. A great deal of science has gone into transmitting quite remarkable data rates over a copper pair. The abject and miserable failure of Openreach/BT is that they cannot organise a basic DC connection.
Worse than that, BT cynically hides the tools needed for fault diagnosis from the end user and the ISP. They obfuscate, dissemble and write quality of service and support rules that would make a snake oil seller blush. I like the one where blinding incompetence cannot find a dry joint, so lets charge the customer.
We all must take Griff's lead here; stick at it, stay cool, gather that data, maintain the chronologies, escalate to the CEO. In this case I would go back BT with the full history and ask for an explanation as to why a DC connection cannot be guaranteed. You have to ask why our ISPs cannot do this. It seems the end user is on his own; ISPs are ineffective and BT are both cynical and hapless. Perhaps this sorry tale should go to Ofcom and a few MP's Ministers or Shadow Ministers. But then why report the incompetent to the ineffective?
For sure we should follows Griff's lead and stick at it.
Thanks and well done Griff.
:clap2:
Quote from: davej99 on Oct 01, 2011, 11:25:38
(Your mobile number is given at post 75 BTW)
Thanks for pointing that out, it isn't anymore. :thumb:
Time for an update!
I'm sorry I didn't reply to peoples comment after my last post but that was intentional on my behalf. Within minutes of me confirming everything was perfect and people congratulating me on my persistence things took a turn for the worse.
Good news -
Since a HR fault was confirmed on the line and it was subsequently swapped for a spare pair I have seen a definite improvement in sync speed and stability.
Bad news -
The sync speed still isn't a high as it should be and interleaving is still in place on the line. I'm only 320 metres from the DSLAM cabinet (confirmed by OR) and from August 2010 to January 2011 I had the full 40/10 sync with fastpath.
The errors -
You'll remember I was concerned at the amount of errors taking place on the connection and how relieved I was when the line was swapped over that no errors were detected. That lasted about half an hour and they started again.
AS of this very moment my modem has been synced for 1627513 seconds (452 hours or 18 days) and in that period there's been 21,297,628 (yes 21 million) CRC errors and 7,430,628 HEC errors. That equates to 13 CRC and 4 HEC errors every second of every day.
I've spoken to 20+ other FTTC users and countless ADSL/ADSL2+ users and no-one has even come close to that amount of errors. The highest FTTC error count I could find was 17,000 in over a month. Just to put that into perspective I get that many in less than half an hour.
The reason I intentionally didn't post earlier is Olivia Garfield (CE of Openreach) had assured me she'd liaise directly with Idnet to try and get to the bottom of this issue. Four weeks have passed and to cut a long story short she did nothing of the sort but simply forwarded a six week old email, relating to another subject, to Simon at idnet.
So tomorrow will see my fifth or is it sixth, I forget, OR engineer visiting me in just over a month. Let's hope he doesn't run a five minute test and run out the door like the last guy.
Another update!
Richard (OR) attended yesterday and was probably one of the most friendly and professional OR engineers I've ever had the pleasure to meet and we were both a bit shocked to find out he was the same engineer who installed my best friends FTTC/VDSL2 on Tuesday. Small world!
I showed him the modem CP stats/errors and he was shocked at the amount that had occurred on the connection. He had an EXFO so tested the line for errors but this device only has a maximum test period of five minutes before it closes down and displays the results. As my errors typically appear within 15-30 minutes of the modem syncing a five minute test was always going to be somewhat flawed.
The modem, now my third, was exchanged and he left apologising for not being able to do more.
As if that was disappointing enough my IP Profile has just dropped from 38,718Kbps to 22,626Kbp, my level of interleaving has doubled and the errors are still occurring.
Wonderful service!
:(
For comparison, I am getting 0.0081 CRC errors per second. I think that says enough really. What a mess :(
As of 4.30PM yesterday IP Profile reset back to normal Phew!!
(http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-thumb/59b0dbb7bbb33efa84b291e6fef909cc-01-11-2011.png) (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/59b0dbb7bbb33efa84b291e6fef909cc-01-11-2011.html)
As for the errors Simon is going to have a think about what Idnet/OR can try next.
Wish my profile would reset, it's been stuck at 25mb since 2nd June.
Can support give it a kick for you, Glenn?
Quote from: .Griff. on Nov 01, 2011, 10:44:38
As of 4.30PM yesterday IP Profile reset back to normal Phew!!
That seems to have happened to quite a few recently (including me), and I for one don't believe in coincidence... a possible explanation?
It's probably relates to the BT change from the original 8c profile to the new 17a profile, in readiness for next year's speed doubling. (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4059111-speed-increase.html)
Quote from: Rik on Nov 01, 2011, 11:25:37
Can support give it a kick for you, Glenn?
I have already contacted Brian, they can't get it reset without calling out an engineer.
Bugger. :(
Quote from: Bill on Nov 01, 2011, 11:27:45
That seems to have happened to quite a few recently (including me), and I for one don't believe in coincidence... a possible explanation?
It's probably relates to the BT change from the original 8c profile to the new 17a profile, in readiness for next year's speed doubling. (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/t/4059111-speed-increase.html)
Some people have already been moved to the 17a profile albeit the 40Mbps cap is still in place. I thought this might explain the sudden profile resets but I'm still on 8c -
# xdslcmd info --show
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max: Upstream rate = 17383 Kbps, Downstream rate = 47004 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 9999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 39999 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 8c
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Final update (I hope)
After my last update I told Idnet I'd live with all of the errors because we'd collectively exhausted all avenues of finding the cause and after six engineer visits in two months I'd pretty much had enough.
So things continued as before with a million errors accumulating each day and nothing I could do about them. That is until early this morning when my DSLAM was updated from 8c to 17a VDSL2 profile. What this "update" consists of I'm not sure but I suspect it may be a firmware update.
As a result my errors have all but disappeared completely. I've gone from 12 CRC errors every second to 0.02 CRC errors every second. In addition my TBB quality monitor always showed a slight amount of packetloss all day long. That has virtually vanished as well.
If it stays like this then I'm a very happy man indeed.
:fingers: :fingers: Lets hope!
Or pray. :pray:
Lets be safe and do both!!!
:)
Quote from: .Griff. on Nov 10, 2011, 15:20:59
That is until early this morning when my DSLAM was updated from 8c to 17a VDSL2 profile. What this "update" consists of I'm not sure but I suspect it may be a firmware update.
How were you able to tell that the DSLAM had been updated? Or is this information only available to 21CN/FTTC customers?
It's FTTC only :)
Does this imply that Griff is/was getting very strong, somewhat intermittent interference at the 8MHz band which is gone now it has shifted to 17MHz? Either that, or some bugs fixed by the firmware update... Remarkable change either way!
Quote from: esh on Nov 11, 2011, 19:34:44
Does this imply that Griff is/was getting very strong, somewhat intermittent interference at the 8MHz band which is gone now it has shifted to 17MHz? Either that, or some bugs fixed by the firmware update... Remarkable change either way!
Simon_Idnet is as equally baffled as me.
I keep checking my stats half expecting to see 1million+ errors have suddenly appear but so far so good. It's been over 36 hours and they're not even past 3000.
My personal guess, which could be completely wrong, is some sort of firmware update was applied to the DSLAM and that's fixed whatever niggle was wrong before.
Just attached a screenshot comparison.
It's a small improvement, isn't it, Griff. :)