I joined IDNet in Dec. No probs and love it. But I am concerned my sync speed could be better and wanted your experienced opinions!
Moved house, got BT phone connected. Called IDNet for broadband. Day 1 of connection going live I synced at approx 12Mb. Day 2 read approx 15Mb. Next time I checked a few days later it was 6655kbps and has been that ever since. ROuter was turned off whilst at work on occasions. This is ADSL2+ enabled exchange.
Stats:-
Router : Netgear DG834v5 (firmware v1.6.01.34, ADSL firmware E.25.41.64 A)
Downstream connection 6655kbps
Upstream connection 1251kbps
Attenuation downstream 26db, upstream 10db
Noise Margin downstream 20db, upstream 6.5db
The router is currently plugged into the master socket (faceplate off, internal connection socket).
Swapped leads. Swapped filters. Turned off router for a day. Back on. Left it on for a few days. Moved it around the house. Turned wireless on/off on router (clutching at straws now).
Always at 6655kbps. Never changes.
I'm about 1km from exchange. I used to sync higher (7192) than that with same router when I lived further away on Max.
BT predicts 14mb connection for my location. Speedtests show no probs on getting what I should get. I just would like to improve my sync.
Is that bad SNR for ADSL2+ ? Is that a typical sync in reality. Noisy BT line?
Hope you can help,
Andy
Your attenuation should mean a much better throughput, the 20db SNR is the issue, I would guess interleaving has switched on and limite your synch due to noise bursts.
Try to isolate what may be causing noise, make sure all your cables are shielded, not bell wire stuff, keep them away from Electrical power cables, make sure your bell wire is not connected as well, see the help section for how to do that. The v5 chipset is not great but trying another router may help, also avoid to many disconnections, it could be seen as an issue and increase your snr as well. Leave the router plugged in as much as possible.
You have placed on a banded profile by BT MSAN which is a tool used in adsl2+ to limit lines which have high error counts or show instability I.e resyncs. You need to see if you can source the noise your side of the master socket and then get yourself unbanded
Edit : manners sorry.
:welc: :karma:
Hi and welcome to the forum, mouthrush. :welc: :karma:
You've done all the most obvious things already. Can you get your hands on a MW, battery powered, radio? If so, de-tune it so you only have white noise, then use it to follow your phone wiring from where the cable enters the house to the router. If you hear an increase in volume of the white noise, that's interference that will be affecting the ADSL.
If that reveals nothing, can you borrow a spare router to try? As others have said, good screened cables are vital in a noisy environment.
:welc: :karma:
Thankyou everyone for the prompt and detailed replies :)
I should be able to borrow a router. *If* it was the router, would I see an immediate improvement in SNR? Or will it mean leaving it plugged in for a day, for example, before SNR drops back? I ask so I know how long to request borrowing it for!
I havent replaced the small cable between router and socket yet - I shall source one of those.
Currently the faceplate is unscrewed from the master socket and the only thing plugged into the internal socket (via a filter) is the router. No phones attached. There is a mains plug socket within 15" of the master socket. I have a radio so I'll see what I can find.
Thanks for taking the time to reply - I'll report back after tonight's tests,
Andy
:welc: :karma:
I don't think you'll see any improvement in downstream sync until the banded profile has been removed, any increase in margin at the same sync is a sign that the interference has been reduced and conversely the opposite applies a decreased margin with the same sync means more interference.
As Steve says, in the first instance, you're looking for an increase in noise margin.
This evening I borrowed a router, modem cable and filter. Connected at master socket internal with nothing else connected, and configured - this router reported 22db. Left it for 20mins with no change.
Put my Netgear back - 20db.
Detuned portable MW radio. Most noise came when radio was held near NTE5 master socket and the BT junction box. Noisier than next to a mains socket. Noisiest cable was the modem cable from router to filter.
I took the cover off the small BT junction box next to the NTE5 box. A mass of unused wires that were folded up sprung out (~12cm each). I carefully fanned them out to reveal the correct pair of wires connected at terminals. Their condition appeared fine. I glanced back at the router status to see the SNR was now 15.4db. So pulling out the birdsnest gained 5db. I put them back and it went to 18db. I fanned them out - back to 15.5db.
After much consideration I trimmed back the unused wires leaving ~3cm inside the little box and screwed on cover.
Its been fluctuating around 15.2 - 15.7db for the last hour.
I shall inspect the master socket tomorrow evening. Is this getting nearer to a value that would allow a better sync?
Thanks again for taking the time to provide ideas,
Andy
Any of that nest of wires connected to terminals other than 2 and 5
If your snr went from to 20 to 15 at the same sync that is not a good thing. It means more noise is being picked up which reduces the margin.
No other connections to any other terminals in the small junction box. Spent a while staring at it, checking images online, double checking, photographed, etc. Ran out of time last night to plug everything back into NTE5 as normal.
I checked the extension socket for the ringwire terminal - not connected. Will continue this evening.
Lance - are you saying my sync should dynamically change as/when the SNR changes? Over the last month it has fluctuated between 15-20db. Sync has never changed from 6655. Is that a symptom of being "banded" (whatever that means)?
I remember at my last house on Max I had an SNR of about 8db. I take it that SNR values are different for ADSL2+?
What number should I be aiming for?
Thanks,
Andy
Quote from: mouthrush on Jan 20, 2011, 10:35:02
Lance - are you saying my sync should dynamically change as/when the SNR changes? Over the last month it has fluctuated between 15-20db. Sync has never changed from 6655. Is that a symptom of being "banded" (whatever that means)?
I remember at my last house on Max I had an SNR of about 8db. I take it that SNR values are different for ADSL2+?
What number should I be aiming for?
Thanks,
Andy
The banding means that the BT line management has decided to prevent you from syncing any higher than the top of the band. Normally, your target snr is 6db (max and adsl2+) but if you acheive max sync then you will have margin to spare.
The target snr is what is aimed for when you first negotiate sync and will then fluctuate depending on noise. Sync does not dynamically change.
Hi Andy
A banded profile is a 'tool' BT introduced with ADSL2+ to, effectively, limit the maximum sync speed on an unstable line. While you are banded, you should see significantly higher noise margins than the default 6db. Note that the only figure of real use is that immediately after a resync, that establishes the baseline and it's the fluctuations from that which will give us a clue as to what is happening.
Noise margins haven't fundamentally changed with ADSL2+, though there is now an 'official' 3db target margin for good lines.
Lance and Rik - thankyou both for your explanantions and continued input. I appreciate your time in helping me understand the intricacies of broadband speed!
But I'm not there yet...
If I understand correctly, the Noise Margin number reported by the router (15.45db when last checked at bedtime) needs to become nearer 6db. However I'm not likely to see a value reported near 6db whilst I'm banded. But if I make every effort to get that number towards 6db there is a likelihood that I trigger an automatic resync to a slightly higher sync speed (if I turn off router for 20min or more before starting it again). Would a displayed noise margin of 12db trigger it? 13db? I guess its more complex than that, but thats the only parameter I have a direct influence on. Keen to understand though.
Then, if the new, slightly higher sync is not disconnected too much (your FAQs say 10 connections per hr) then do BT automatically remove the banded profile after a few days of constant (router left on) stability?
Thanks,
Andy
Quote from: mouthrush on Jan 20, 2011, 12:06:10
If I understand correctly, the Noise Margin number reported by the router (15.45db when last checked at bedtime) needs to become nearer 6db. However I'm not likely to see a value reported near 6db whilst I'm banded. But if I make every effort to get that number towards 6db there is a likelihood that I trigger an automatic resync to a slightly higher sync speed (if I turn off router for 20min or more before starting it again).
No. You do not want to make every effort to reduce the reported noise margin from 15db to 6db. You want to make every effort to
increase it to at least 18db. If you can hold it at 18db for a day or so and then resync, the resync will be at a higher speed with a noise margin close to, but slightly above, 15db. That is because your target noise margin (set by BT) is unaffected (stays at 15db).
Remember, increasing your noise margin without a resync means you have reduced your noise. You have to increase your noise margin at your existing sync speed if you ever want to resync at a higher speed.
The profile limits throughput but does not affect sync speed. Sync speed is determined by target noise margin and actual noise margin.
Sync speed then determines the profile in a fairly complex way. At a given stable sync speed, the profile will gradually increase in incremental steps but it will never be greater than the sync speed (subject to an occasional inexplicable anomaly in BT's mechanism).
A reminder of banded profiles used on adsl2+ , these limit the max sync obtainable and as far as I am aware there is no automatic removal, i.e find the fault if possible then ask for removal.
WBC banded line profile (rate kbps)
7168 - 14336
4864 - 9728
3328 - 6656
2272 - 4544
1472 - 3072
1152 - 2272
576 - 1152
288 - 576
160 - 288
Fantastic explanation Armadillo - I will see if I can get the number to go up over the next few days and report back.
Thanks for the Profile list Steve. Here's hoping to increase my 6655.
Regards,
Andy
Support are going to re-start your training period, Andy. That will kill the banding, so try to keep the connection as permanent as possible, ie leave the router on 24/7. Running Routerstats would be useful.
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/moreinternet/files.htm
Thanks Rik - I'll ensure it stays on for the full 10 days.
Regards,
Andy
:thumb:
Let us know how it goes.
Fired up routerstats to keep an eye on things.
Had a quick look at graphs this morning before leaving the house. Syncing at steady 14383, noise fluctuating around 5.5 - 7db.
Total uptime 13hrs although looks like a reconnect 7hrs ago.
Another look tonight...
Andy
looking good if the margin is only fluctuating by 1.5dB
It is, Steve. :) :fingers:
Sync went up into the 16000s briefly. I found an internal wiring issue though. I noticed that when using an old (Audioline - to help date its age for you!) wallmount phone that came with the house, caused a disconnect despite being filtered. Extension line is hidden. I don't need it so abandoned that, sticking to Dect only now which do not cause me any problems.
I also couldnt resist powering-off and moving the router to allow for adding DLNA server for the telly - so another disconnect after ADSL being up for about 7hrs. That was Saturday.
All in all very good though. Router and ADSL have been up for for about 36hrs straight at 13303 sync, noise around 7 - 9 varying gently throughout the day. Happy with that, never had it so good!
Thanks,
Andy
:thumb:
:fingers:
Hasnt disconnected all week. 13303 sync with noise currently ~7-8db.
Training finishes Monday. Telephones, router, PCs all being used as normal. All looking good.
I'll give a final figure next week after training.
Thanks,
Andy
Looking good. :thumb:
Very. I'm jealous. ;D
I rebooted router after training had finished. Currently been up a day at 14930 down, 1248 up. Noise at 4.5db down.
Yes!!!
Thankyou all!
Our pleasure. :)
A good result! :)
Quote from: Steve on Jan 20, 2011, 13:44:31
A reminder of banded profiles used on adsl2+ , these limit the max sync obtainable and as far as I am aware there is no automatic removal, i.e find the fault if possible then ask for removal.
WBC banded line profile (rate kbps)
7168 - 14336
4864 - 9728
3328 - 6656
2272 - 4544
1472 - 3072
1152 - 2272
576 - 1152
288 - 576
160 - 288
So my sync is at 3072 exactly! Does this mean i have hit the top? If so how do i jump to the next band? I have recently had issues with my BB in that the adsl would drop if my landline was called even without a phone connected, got a i-plate which seems to have fixed this, i am guessing this has reduced noise on the line hence i wonder if my sync will go up?
Also started a ping monitor via thinkbroadband as i noticed several people using this:
(http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-thumb/a2f9a2a578db77513f8480f561ca98e2.png) (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/a2f9a2a578db77513f8480f561ca98e2.html)
I also have IPv6 coming though my router will this effect sync i am guessing most likely not?
You could well have been banded following your recent problems, I believe your on adsl2+ . The only mechanism I know of unbanding is via support who will get BT to lift the banding. If you solved the problem you should be fine. Do you know your current downstream margin it should be fairly high if the banding has had a significant effect on your downstream sync. Your downstream attenuation should give you some clues as to lines potential. IPv6 shouldn't make any difference.
Heres the info from my router:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3072 kbps 760 kbps
Line Attenuation 57.0 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 11.4 db 6.6 db
The sync of 3072 is the highest stable snyc i have ever had, i used to be lower. The Noise margin has dropped alot since installing the i-plate? Do i need to call support to get a new sync speed?
I rough calculation from www.kitz.co.uk would suggest around 3500kbps for that downstream att, your margin is elevated but that could be as a result of possible banding. If you are banded and you've solved the 'noise' issue unbanding will allow you to sync higher and the margin will fall to the usual 6. Obviously this is all theoretical but the sync of 3072 looks typical of a banded profile to me.
Conversely if your not banded you've still got some noise on your connection as the default downstream margin is elevated.
Support will know whether your banded or not and can arrange the unbanding through BT.
Ok thanks for the info i will call support in the morning and see how it goes
You won't get anywhere until Monday even if support were open BT aren't ;D
Quote from: mk1 on Feb 11, 2011, 22:21:23
Heres the info from my router:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3072 kbps 760 kbps
Line Attenuation 57.0 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 11.4 db 6.6 db
The sync of 3072 is the highest stable snyc i have ever had, i used to be lower. The Noise margin has dropped alot since installing the i-plate? Do i need to call support to get a new sync speed?
The noise margin is still dropping but the download snyc has dropped slighty, and up upload has gone up!
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3023 kbps 826 kbps
Line Attenuation 57.0 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 10.5 db 5.5 db
That suggest noise is still a problem on the line. :(
Those were my thoughts Rik, Although there is an i Plate present and according to previous post the ring wire has been removed from an extension I wondered whether it was worth disconnecting the ring wire from the master socket if it's not already been done.
I think it's always worth doing, Steve. I'd also be inclined to take the master off the wall and check there's no irregular wiring there.
I though I wasn't allowed to remove the master? If I can the I just need to look for the bell wires and any other odd wires?
You're not allowed to remove the master. OTOH, if you're careful, no-one will know. ;) There should be just two wires connected on the rear.
It's surprising how often any superfluous ring wires just 'fall' off old-style master sockets. ;D
You'd also be surprised how often sockets just move of their own accord, mine moved from the kitchen at back of the house to the lounge at the front. ;D
Just to check as I'm not at my pc atm is it 2 and 5 right? A check might be needed
2 & 5 on the front and extensions, it's usually labelled A&B on the rear, and the wires won't be a matched colour-pair.
An update just had a little look, to my surprise only two wires are connected there are further wires but they are not connected, there is no connection for them, i had noticed the extention wire had more than 2 &5 so i removed the remaining wires. After Reconnecting all interesting noise margin is now at this:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3023 kbps 770 kbps
Line Attenuation 57.5 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 8.9 db 3.4 db
Not sure if i need to wait for this to settle a little?
Just a few days. Amazing what wires can do to your signal, eh. ;)
It's now being reprofiled/banded download sync allready at 4700 I hope that sticks
Quote from: mk1 on Feb 13, 2011, 20:56:33
An update just had a little look, to my surprise only two wires are connected there are further wires but they are not connected, there is no connection for them, i had noticed the extention wire had more than 2 &5 so i removed the remaining wires. After Reconnecting all interesting noise margin is now at this:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3023 kbps 770 kbps
Line Attenuation 57.5 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 8.9 db 3.4 db
Not sure if i need to wait for this to settle a little?
So you moved from 3023 kbps 10.5 dB to 3023kbps 8.9 dB
That is, your noise got
worse by 1.6 dB
If you're lucky, this is just coincidence and has nothing to do with removing the wires. A worsening of noise by 1.6 dB in the space of a few minutes is not unusual.
Quote from: mk1 on Feb 14, 2011, 15:16:26
It's now being reprofiled/banded download sync allready at 4700 I hope that sticks
What's the downstream margin now?
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4712 kbps 826 kbps
Line Attenuation 57.5 db 31.4 db
Noise Margin 3.9 db 4.9 db
Well the sync has gone up!
Looking good! You need to update your "my best ever connection" image ;)
Quote from: armadillo on Feb 14, 2011, 23:28:57
Looking good! You need to update your "my best ever connection" image ;)
Umm well so far my sync has gone up but no improvement in thoughput?? Also i seem to be getting packetloss alot more at the moment?
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1158853046.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
I think you've seen the possible cause of this. Check later tomorrow.
Quote from: Rik on Feb 15, 2011, 18:24:02
I think you've seen the possible cause of this. Check later tomorrow.
Is it going to be fixed tomorrow or something???
A core router is being re-booted at 6am tomorrow, which is expected to cure the problem.
So problem fixed i gather? Not seen much improvement in throughput speed is still lower than before around 2mb even though sync is at 4.7mb?
What does the BT tester give as your profile?
Test1 comprises of two tests
1. Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Download Speed
2176 Kbps
0 Kbps 4000 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed
Download speedachieved during the test was - 2176 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 1200-4000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :4712 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 824 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 2500 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 9.42:24.65:65.95 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.
The results of this test will vary depending on the way your ISP has decided to use these traffic classes.
2. Upstream Test: -provides background information.
Upload Speed
686 Kbps
0 Kbps 824 Kbps
Max Achievable Speed
>Upload speed achieved during the test was - 686 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 824 Kbps
We were unable to identify any performance problem with your service at this time.
It is possible that any problem you are currently, or had previously experienced may have been caused by traffic congestion on the Internet or by the server you were accessing responding slowly.
If you continue to encounter a problem with a specific server, please contact the administrator of that server in the first instance.
Please visit FAQ section if you are unable To understand the test results.
Not sure what this really means? Should i not be getting 4mb thoughput?
No, your profile of 2500 is limiting you. This will increse to be in line with that expected for your sync over the next five days.
Assuming that your line maintains a stable connection.
Well....
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1161182990.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
My thoughput has gone up last night!