my dad has noticed that during peak times the speed seems to drop - when he finishes work at 9pm he comes in at speed is between 2Mbps and 4Mbps - about 11-12midnight it goes back to 6.9Mbps
last night at 9pm was 4mbps
tonight was 3mbps and 5 minutes later was 5mbps
his sync rate is still 8128k / 448k with 7150 profile and the BT tester said theyre might be slowdowns tonight - as far as im aware it always says that doesnt it? (just to cover there backs)
are there any current issues?
Sounds like possible exchange congestion which unfortunately is a fact of life these days and affects all BT based ISPs.
Quote from: pctech on Sep 16, 2010, 21:31:53
Sounds like possible exchange congestion which unfortunately is a fact of life these days and affects all BT based ISPs.
yeah ive explained that to him - but you never know when its exchange or ISP or both... ive seen people suffer with it then change ISPs and its GONE... im one of those people...
ive said to him if it lowers to 4-5mb during peak and not more then that would be acceptable and he happy enough so see how it goes
It might be an idea to talk it over with support.
Quote from: pctech on Sep 16, 2010, 21:42:49
It might be an idea to talk it over with support.
well seeing as weve only noticed over past few nights then were going to continue monitoring it and see if it eases of or gets worse then make a decision about contacting support
thanks
Might also be worth checking the exchange VP status at the following site http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/ though it maybe a lot of new connections have been activated recently or you've got a few Fibre To The Cabinet (FTTC) connections.
Quote from: pctech on Sep 16, 2010, 21:49:24
Might also be worth checking the exchange VP status at the following site http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/ though it maybe a lot of new connections have been activated recently or you've got a few Fibre To The Cabinet (FTTC) connections.
he is on a quiet exchange serving 120 premises or so
BALMACARA
Might have quite a low capacity backhaul.
See what happens and talk to support.
As far as we are aware, there are not any issues at IDNet - if there were there would soon be lots of other users on the forum letting us know! It seems entirely charactoristic of exchange congestion unfortunately, but support can confirm this.
I agree with Lance. It's perhaps worth mentioning that the IDNet network has plenty of headroom at the moment, but how much BT provide to get you there is a moveable feast I'm, afraid.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 17, 2010, 09:17:18
I agree with Lance. It's perhaps worth mentioning that the IDNet network has plenty of headroom at the moment, but how much BT provide to get you there is a moveable feast I'm, afraid.
yup
i will see how it goes tonight before contacting them BUT I will also ask my dad if he has been testing EVERY NIGHT cos he only mentioned it to me SINCE the outage other day - it may be that its only been SINCE then he has had this happening
He also needs to test at different times of day, that will build a more complete picture of what's going on.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 17, 2010, 14:18:17
He also needs to test at different times of day, that will build a more complete picture of what's going on.
ive got him doing that but unfortunately he works 3pm-9pm - he has been testing constantly after getting in and as it nears midnight the speed creeps up
he says it was doing it BEFORE the outage other day so been since he went live
Then that looks like exchange congestion, he's testing in peak hours. What happens if he does a morning test?
Quote from: Rik on Sep 17, 2010, 14:47:16
Then that looks like exchange congestion, he's testing in peak hours. What happens if he does a morning test?
true - thing is when i was with Tiscali the same happened to me and 2nd tier support got onto BT about it who said it was EXCHANGE CONGESTION and couldnt be helped - i moved to ENTANET and i got full speeds day & night?? so you just dont know what to believe...
You may have been on a different VP when you changed provider.
Quote from: Glenn on Sep 17, 2010, 14:51:01
You may have been on a different VP when you changed provider.
what does this mean? and this could apply to my dad too if he wanted to move?
It might not be the entire exchange, just the VP he's connected to. If he does a range of tests, at different times of day, and sends them to support, they will be able to investigate for him. The tests must be BT ones, nothing else will be considered by BT.
11am....6.96/ 1200.......6.50/ 2 pm.....6.21
and now at 2:50 - 5.2Mb
seems to be dropping from midday onwards - that seems a bit early for peak time traffic
BT had some problems at LAGGAN which is south of him, wonder if its been 'half-fixed'
Quote from: snadge on Sep 17, 2010, 14:52:00
what does this mean? and this could apply to my dad too if he wanted to move?
Virtual path - the apparent physical connection to the ISP which is really just a routing within BT. Most provider changes do not result in a VP change.
Quote from: snadge on Sep 17, 2010, 14:54:06
11am....6.96/ 1200.......6.50/ 2 pm.....6.21
and now at 2:50 - 5.2Mb
seems to be dropping from midday onwards - that seems a bit early for peak time traffic
BT had some problems at LAGGAN which is south of him, wonder if its been 'half-fixed'
What tester is he using?
Quote from: Rik on Sep 17, 2010, 14:55:11
What tester is he using?
he's been using speedtest.net on morecombe - ive just thought it might be a poor server - i use maidenhead as xilo.net seem to have tons of badnwidth cos my 16Mb tests roll in day and night on that
anyway, ive told him to ONLY use BT from now on for official reasons for records and IDnet to send to BT etc - he done one came at 6.5Mb - so i told him to set speedtest.net to maidenhead anyway and test it to see if it also comes in high - he just gunna use BT from now on every hour and email results to me so i have them all copy&pasted
im hoping its just poor server on speedtest.net getting busy during day as speedtest.net defaults to that for him an me and were 350 miles apart
EDIT: MAIDNHEAD COME IT AT OVER 7Mbps SO MUST BE POOR SERVER AT MORECOMBE - lets hop anyway
:)
yup looks like i was right - phew!
BT tests are rolling in at 6.5-6.9
XILO.NET are rolling in at 7.2Mb every time
he's happy chappy - he was OK with it anyway as long didnt drop below 3Mbps for Youtube
That's great. ;D
Quote from: Rik on Sep 17, 2010, 15:38:22
That's great. ;D
again, thanks for the assistance :)
were gunna continue to monitor it just incase but i think its gunna be fine
:fingers: ;)
well at 9pm after work the speedtest.net site @ XILO.NET was 2.1Mb - he tried a few servers (morecombe and manchester) and al came back 2.2 but BT came back
Download speedachieved during the test was - 4679 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps
so just dont know whats going on? he seems to think its been like this since the beginning but he only mentioned it AFTER the outtage
he says if BT is right then he's happy
if speedtest is right then he's not
will continue to monitor
From what I've read speedtest is not supposed to be that accurate.
Might be better trying thinkbroadband?
Quote from: pctech on Sep 18, 2010, 09:14:18
From what I've read speedtest is not supposed to be that accurate.
Might be better trying thinkbroadband?
we tried various testers and all rolled in at extreme different results - he couldnt get on the BT tester initially but when he did it was 4Mbps
do IDnet support not work the weekend?
ive sent them an email to see if BT can tell them more...
I find speedtest accurate to within 0.02Mbps measuring the exact output that goes through the router here. I think there is tech support at IDNet at the weekends but they can't do much because BT aren't on duty unless an exchange explodes or something.
I believe IDNet support monitor voicemail and respond to no connection events but BT don't do much unless you have enhanced care.
BT do nothing unless you have enhanced care. :(
Quote from: snadge on Sep 18, 2010, 13:29:59
do IDnet support not work the weekend?
ive sent them an email to see if BT can tell them more...
As has been said, Snadge, they'll deal with 'no connection' faults as best they can, but speed issues have to go to a BT team which works 9-5:30, Mon-Fri, so they can do nothing to help at weekends and will deal with your email on Monday.
speeds have been better today/tonight - still a little fluctuation when the evening arrives then drops by 10pm :( - also speedtest.net gets all stroppy when it gets slow like really bad packet loss I think - it fails to finish or stretches right out -sometimes BT tester fails to finish
2pm:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 6395 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps
4pm:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 6238 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps
speedtest is milton......7.13
6pm:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 5960 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps
speedtest......milton....7.11
7pm:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 6232 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps
milton.....6.23
8pm:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 4112 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps
milto.....5.07
10pm:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 3257 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :8128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps
milton ........2.62
That looks like classic exchange congestion to me.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 19, 2010, 11:43:47
That looks like classic exchange congestion to me.
yup, but same patterns emerge with ISP congestion too, dont they? how do we know its not the ISPs 'allowed capacity' at the exchange? ...thing is, if ISPs like IDnet, NewNet, Fast etc etc charge that bit extra to pay for more headroom with BT... why should we be experiencing any 'exchange congestion' at all..? its up to BT then to upgrade the exchange because these ISPs are paying more to ensure the customers GET the bandwidth ...thats what i was led to believe anyway... is it not upto IDnet to kick BT into check?
- my dads quite happy but it dropped to 2Mb last night and this morning back to 7Mb - i think he is also suffering from Packet-Loss and isnt noticing it because when speeds get quite low the speedtest.net site stops responding and speeds up then slows down and takes an age to finish - BT tester and BBmax tester is fine but BT has timed-out before - BT tester always rolls in 'slightly' lower than other two, I have asked him to to pings through CMD and use pingtest.net to measure packet loss when speeds get low and speedtest.net starts getting scatty - thing is when speedtest.net gets scatty the other two (BT and BBmax) still work OK..?? - its like theres something between his exchange and speedtest servers (all of them too) thats causing this too happen - now when the outtages happened LAGGAN area was affected which is just south of him, im wondering if something is wrong there? - dunno its hard to say and hard to pin point - I also asked him to disable Comodo firewall and speedtests wre coming higher but still under par each time the wall was down - a difference of almost 2Mbps, so ive asked him to uninstall Comodo for now and fall back on windows firewall to ensure a clean test
ive sent emails to support so see what they can do tomorrow - theres no rush like it works just fine (for now - need to find out if any packet loss) - ive explained that its probably exchange specific - the facts stand that even with AOL his 2Mb would slow to 1Mb in evenings JUST like his 7Mb drops to 2-3Mb - so this also points to exchange congestion - but it costs nothing to keep trying monthly contract ISPs until you get one your happy with, while its probably likely he will suffer slow downs with ANY ISP he can only try - it happened to me and was told it was exchange congestion by BT when with Tiscali but when i moved it was fine (actually it was my 3rd ISP cos i was with AOL (slow) TISCALI (slow) ENTANET (fast) - so i went through 2 ISPs that suffered "exchange congestion" before i got one that didnt
see what happens
ISPs don't pay extra for capacity at the exchange, the only way of gaining priority there is to move to a Pro package which does get the priority. The difference between ISPs lays in their own network - can it cope with the demands that their customers are making on it. IDNet have always tried to ensure that theirs can, and have told us, on the rare occasions that it can't, why and what they are doing about it.
I'm not being funny, but is your dad actually using his connection, or does he spend all his time running speed tests? I only ever run one if I think there's something wrong. As has been said, speedtest.net isn't the best site to be using, there are simply too many variables with it. Use the BT site and only the BT site if you want accurate figures. To check for packet loss, run a 'long' ping test, eg ping www.idnet.net -n 100.
The variation between ISPs at a given exchange is often down to a congested VP issue. IDNet will check for that and, if possible get him moved to a different VP.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 19, 2010, 15:24:28
ISPs don't pay extra for capacity at the exchange, the only way of gaining priority there is to move to a Pro package which does get the priority. The difference between ISPs lays in their own network - can it cope with the demands that their customers are making on it. IDNet have always tried to ensure that theirs can, and have told us, on the rare occasions that it can't, why and what they are doing about it.
I'm not being funny, but is your dad actually using his connection, or does he spend all his time running speed tests? I only ever run one if I think there's something wrong. As has been said, speedtest.net isn't the best site to be using, there are simply too many variables with it. Use the BT site and only the BT site if you want accurate figures. To check for packet loss, run a 'long' ping test, eg ping www.idnet.net -n 100.
The variation between ISPs at a given exchange is often down to a congested VP issue. IDNet will check for that and, if possible get him moved to a different VP.
I will get him to run a long ping and see what it says
he does use the connection, but now, cos theres been sync/speed issues since signing up with IDnet he's running a test every hour to see if these issues are 'fixed' and he is getting the line speed his line is capable of and should get - but normally he only runs test when YouTUBE stops working as it should, he is happy with it but dropping to 2Mb is no good because he was already (and could) pay less to get 2Mb connection (or one that slows to 2Mb)- the reason he paid the "extra" was to get constant faster broadband - but if its going to suffer then he may aswell pay less for a lesser ISP - see my point? - he doesnt sit the constantly running speedtests...
what is a VP..?
thanks
If BT haven't got the backhaul to the exchange, he might be better off using an LLU provider if there is one Snadge.
A VP is a virtual path, the apparent connection between his router and IDNet. It's not a real, end-to-end, connection, though, but a series of BT networks and routers. Hence, at any exchange, one VP can run hot, while the others have spare capacity. BT can redistribute the load if that's the case.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 19, 2010, 16:05:47
If BT haven't got the backhaul to the exchange, he might be better off using an LLU provider if there is one Snadge.
A VP is a virtual path, the apparent connection between his router and IDNet. It's not a real, end-to-end, connection, though, but a series of BT networks and routers. Hence, at any exchange, one VP can run hot, while the others have spare capacity. BT can redistribute the load if that's the case.
ahh right - so does it take an engineer visit at exchange to switch to a different patch point or is it all done on a computerized system in an office?
there are no LLu providers at his exchange unfortunately...
cheers
It's generally all done remotely, re-routing his connection.
http://www.dslzoneuk.net/isp_ratings_comments.php?isp=91
as u can see from user remarks above IDnet does have some issues as of lately
But the overwhelming majority are positive? at least it's only a 30 day contract perhaps the grass will be greener elsewhere
Quote from: Steve on Sep 19, 2010, 16:41:33
But the overwhelming majority are positive? at least it's only a 30 day contract perhaps the grass will be greener elsewhere
yeah they are but the few neg comments seem to be recent ones as if theyre starting to drop in ratings
we'll see :)
Trouble is people prefer to moan rather than praise and unfortunately whether it's the home setup,the BT network or the BT dependent ISP, the ISP gets the blame. it's very difficult to get BT to respond to a congested VP as it may involve an increase in the exchanges capacity. They will not do that until it becomes economically viable i.e an increase in broadband subscribers at a particular exchange.
Unfortunately, the majority of complaints about speed at IDNet are from people who don't understand the difference between exchange congestion or a local problem. SO many times we've had users on this very forum come on and start moaning about IDNet when, after some investigation, we've found the problem is with BT or even with their own PC.
Anything gripe I've got about complaining users is what gives them the right to moan at their being no or minimal out of hours support if they haven't found out about support hours prior to signing up?
In your fathers case, Snage, I suggest you recommend your father to stop doing the tests unless he actually experiences a problem. The problem with all speedtests is, as you've found, there are lots of variables such as server load and exchange congestion.
Given the forum is run by another ISP and allows posts by people who are not customers, we don't tend to put too much store by remarks posted there. Whatever ISP you look at, wherever you look, you will find good and bad comments, because people have good and bad experiences. It's important to understand a few things though:
1) We all connect through BT and, until BT hand off the signal to IDNet, we are at their mercy, hence my question about LLU.
2) The supposed unwillingness to involve BT is a comment made by someone who really doesn't understand the issues involved. IDNet will take a customer through an extensive set of local diagnostics, just as we will, before involving BT. Why? Because they know that if they call BT out straight away, the chances are the customer will be saddled with a £160+ bill. There are exceptions, though, when they can see and identify the fault they will be straight on to BT, but they have to be sure it's on the BT side of the customer's test socket. Things didn't use to be this way, but BT introduced the SFI visit with the charge, and IDNet are doing their best to protect customers from the costs.
3) The introduction of 21CN has created a faster but more vulnerable network - witness last week's problems, when a failure at Stepney Green affected the entire country's broadband. ISPs don't have any control on that BT network and only the largest can go LLU. IDNet have explored other carriers but reliability and price issues have stopped them going any further.
4) In any forum, you are likely to see people posting complaints. The vast majority don't post to say 'my connection is working well'.
IDNet are aware of problems with WBC and fibre lines, and are pushing BT hard to resolve it, but ultimately, they can't force them to do anything.
My connection is working well. :)
ive been informed by a BTo engineer that exchange backhaul congestion is actually rare and its usually down to the ISP not buying enough 155Mbit or 622Mbit pipes to feed their datacenter - could it be that IDnet are due to light another segment? of course this doesnt rule out other problems, like down servers somewhere or such, broken lines in the network causing congestion on re-route of traffic
that site above (DSLzoneUK) is not run by an ISP - its an open forum for DSL users to go with problems with there broadband connections - it has a list of all ISPs and only the users of that ISP can rate as its detected from IP address - you CAN NOT rate a different ISP other than your own - therefore those remarks will be from valid customers - what they say is another matter, im not complaining about the customer service and knew it was like that before we signed up, im/were not having a mad fit like some of those that do and quite happy to use it as-is until it can be looked at.
again, my dad is only running tests on the hour to see whats happening because he is having few issues since moving to IDnet - he moved and paid more so he could get a faster connection with consistently faster speeds - if IDnet cant supply this then he would be better of paying HALF the cost for a lesser ISP who would also suffer from supposed "exchange congestion" - he doesnt sit there clicking RUN TEST , test after test and gett anoyed when theres a few Kbps difference - where talking about upto 5Mbps drop in speed at peak times - this isnt what we hoped for, he may aswell get 8Mb off plusnet for £6.49 and get same speeds and save £10 month on charges - this is the point im trying to make but Ive a feeling Im just annoying people by discussing it - I hope not, and I think its valid to 'complain' or 'discuss' if your internet slows down by that much and your paying MORE for it not too...?
Quote from: snadge on Sep 19, 2010, 17:14:09
ive been informed by a BTo engineer that exchange backhaul congestion is actually rare and its usually down to the ISP not buying enough 155Mbit or 622Mbit pipes to feed their datacenter - could it be that IDnet are due to light another segment? of course this doesnt rule out other problems, like down servers somewhere or such, broken lines in the network causing congestion on re-route of traffic
It seems the BT engineer is mis-informed. We've seen plenty of examples on here of exchange congestion (included VP congestion).
The 155mb and 622mb centrals are old and out of date. IDNet, I think I remember, had theirs turned off about a year ago and they are now on 1gbps links, with automatic fail-over and load balancing. With the old centrals, it used to take ages to get new capacity but with the new links, capactity can be increased really quickly.
The engineer is referring to the BT Central feeds from 20CN.
Links from 21CN are 1 Gbps each.
Quote from: snadge on Sep 19, 2010, 17:14:09
ive been informed by a BTo engineer that exchange backhaul congestion is actually rare and its usually down to the ISP not buying enough 155Mbit or 622Mbit pipes to feed their datacenter - could it be that IDnet are due to light another segment? of course this doesnt rule out other problems, like down servers somewhere or such, broken lines in the network causing congestion on re-route of traffic
Your BT engineer is referring to centrals, the old 20CN network. IDNet have been exclusively on the 21CN (gigabit) hostlink for about a year. That has ample headroom and IDNet add to its capacity for events like the world cup. (Hostlinks can be upgrade for 3 months at a time, in just a few days, unlike centrals which took months to install and had a 12 month contract attached.)
Quotethat site above (DSLzoneUK) is not run by an ISP - its an open forum for DSL users to go with problems with there broadband connections - it has a list of all ISPs and only the users of that ISP can rate as its detected from IP address - you CAN NOT rate a different ISP other than your own - therefore those remarks will be from valid customers - what they say is another matter, im not complaining about the customer service and knew it was like that before we signed up, im/were not having a mad fit like some of those that do and quite happy to use it as-is until it can be looked at.
The site was founded by the now owner of ADSL24, and I've seen comments made by ex-customers. Perhaps he has tightened up in this respect?
Quoteagain, my dad is only running tests on the hour to see whats happening because he is having few issues since moving to IDnet - he moved and paid more so he could get a faster connection with consistently faster speeds - if IDnet cant supply this then he would be better of paying HALF the cost for a lesser ISP who would also suffer from supposed "exchange congestion" - he doesnt sit there clicking RUN TEST , test after test and gett anoyed when theres a few Kbps difference - where talking about upto 5Mbps drop in speed at peak times - this isnt what we hoped for, he may aswell get 8Mb off plusnet for £6.49 and get same speeds and save £10 month on charges - this is the point im trying to make but Ive a feeling Im just annoying people by discussing it - I hope not, and I think its valid to 'complain' or 'discuss' if your internet slows down by that much and your paying MORE for it not too...?
We're doing our best to tell you the situation as we know is, Snadge, If you prefer to listen to others, it's your prerogative. I agree with you, if IDNet can't get a better result for your dad, then he may just as well pay less. The forum is here for discussion, but there's not much more we can say to you than we already have.
I would add that the capped 1 and 2 Meg prducts have been around for quite some time and its possible BT may phase them out when the 21CN roll out is complete.
Quote from: pctech on Sep 19, 2010, 17:40:10
I would add that the capped 1 and 2 Meg prducts have been around for quite some time and its possible BT may phase them out when the 21CN roll out is complete.
Will that ever happen? I wonder as I wonder if BT will ever update 100% of the network? We have no date for WBC at all, and all the exchanges surrounding us have now been upgraded, including Chichester, which is only 4 miles away, so it seems exchanges with a relatively small number residents and businesses may not be upgraded at all as its not financially worth it, I hope that is not the case but I would not be surprised. :(
f Rutland Telecom takes off, that may change rapidly, Gary, and they'll be offering to move you to an activated exchange.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 19, 2010, 17:58:20
f Rutland Telecom takes off, that may change rapidly, Gary, and they'll be offering to move you to an activated exchange.
I hope they do, the Kijoma wifi network is like getting on a merry go round at full speed, impossible it seems, Rik. It would be great to have, if nothing else a greater upload speed. I'll keep everything :fingers: that Rutland works out.
Me too, Gary, BT need some genuine competition.
Quote from: Gary on Sep 19, 2010, 17:52:48
Will that ever happen? I wonder as I wonder if BT will ever update 100% of the network? We have no date for WBC at all, and all the exchanges surrounding us have now been upgraded, including Chichester, which is only 4 miles away, so it seems exchanges with a relatively small number residents and businesses may not be upgraded at all as its not financially worth it, I hope that is not the case but I would not be surprised. :(
Primary idea behind 21CN as I understand it was to get all services on one network with equipment supplied by specific vendors to make it easier to manage instead of it being a patchwork.
Quote from: pctech on Sep 19, 2010, 18:10:03
Primary idea behind 21CN as I understand it was to get all services on one network with equipment supplied by specific vendors to make it easier to manage instead of it being a patchwork.
I think that was the idea, but 75% by 2011 depending on demand worries me, well the depends on demand bit does, as if its not there, as in a small village why do it at all if its not commercially worth it. I do think BT needs some genuine competition as Rik was saying, other wise low speeds in rural area's may never increase or small exchanges may slip though the net. :-\
I wonder if the following speculation is of help here.
Perhaps Balmacara "Exchange" is a bit of misnomer. With only 145 subscribers, along with Stromeferry, 78, Dornie, 228, Glenelg, 209 and Glenshiel, 178, it is a shack that passes for a 20CN network hub in the Highlands. Roll in Plockton, 258 and Kyle with a whopping 660, you have 1856 subscribers over roughly 200 square miles, and this is a popular locale. This kind of network is typical of most of rural Scotland. So my speculation is that the cost of getting connected to backhaul is high and as a result the capacity of the links employed are inadequate. ADSL+ in many locations is relatively new, 21CN is a distant dream and LLU is a nonstarter. I have often heard the the story in the area that yes we are connected but the speeds are rubbish even close to the "exchange".
Snadge, I think the evidence is that IDNET do not have a problem with capacity and my speculation is that beautiful Lochalsh is served lamentably by BT with a local infrastructure that cannot carry the traffic. It's a bit like the road over to Glenelg, a century or so past its sell by date. You can change the coach driver but the ride is still rubbish.
I would talk to others in the area and see if the problem you are seeing is common to the network rather than to an individual ISP and seek help from IDNET with diagnostics. After that its down to political activism to get BT to serve rural Scotland as well as it does the south. :mad:
I agree with you, Dave, especially about the road. ;D
Quote from: davej99 on Sep 19, 2010, 18:56:33
I wonder if the following speculation is of help here.
Perhaps Balmacara "Exchange" is a bit of misnomer. With only 145 subscribers, along with Stromeferry, 78, Dornie, 228, Glenelg, 209 and Glenshiel, 178, it is a shack that passes for a 20CN network hub in the Highlands. Roll in Plockton, 258 and Kyle with a whopping 660, you have 1856 subscribers over roughly 200 square miles, and this is a popular locale. This kind of network is typical of most of rural Scotland. So my speculation is that the cost of getting connected to backhaul is high and as a result the capacity of the links employed are inadequate. ADSL+ in many locations is relatively new, 21CN is a distant dream and LLU is a nonstarter. I have often heard the the story in the area that yes we are connected but the speeds are rubbish even close to the "exchange".
Snadge, I think the evidence is that IDNET do not have a problem with capacity and my speculation is that beautiful Lochalsh is served lamentably by BT with a local infrastructure that cannot carry the traffic. It's a bit like the road over to Glenelg, a century or so past its sell by date. You can change the coach driver but the ride is still rubbish.
I would talk to others in the area and see if the problem you are seeing is common to the network rather than to an individual ISP and seek help from IDNET with diagnostics. After that its down to political activism to get BT to serve rural Scotland as well as it does the south. :mad:
well done on gathering that bit of info dave :) - i see your point, its probably true - i will show my dad WHO by the way has gone and ordered a MAC code without telling me he was going to, since he has done support have failed to reply to my email today :( - just cos he has MAC doesnt mean he will move... he had 3 off AOL before he actually made the jump.
anyway, the locals are all with BT because most of them have family that work for BT and he spoke to one about a year ago who got 0.3Mbps but BT is like that NO MATTER where you are IMHO on ADSLmax - another is on SKY on the PLOCKTON exchange (IPstream) and he told my dad he gets full 8Mb speed but I doubt the legitimacy of his claim because he said 8.1Mb to my dad well we all know thats impossible on IPstream , my dad said he not type to lie and probs got mixed up
at end of the day its up to my dad and Im just trying to get help with his line - he may not change ISP but he is aware that NewNet are same price and same monthly contracts and i think that would be his next "port-of-call" should he leave IDnet
I wont be surprised if the current facts by dave change my dads mind - or at least DO when NewNet turns out to be the same!!
thanks for your help guys...
He may be lucky if he moves to another ISP but only if he ends up on a less congested VP, he may of course stay on the same one, you should get simliar performance from Newnet,AAISP and Zen it just depends which package suits ones needs.
Quote from: Steve on Sep 20, 2010, 13:21:10
He may be lucky if he moves to another ISP but only if he ends up on a less congested VP, he may of course stay on the same one, you should get simliar performance from Newnet,AAISP and Zen it just depends which package suits ones needs.
OK thanks steve...
If you are adamant about moving from IDNet I can definitely recommend Zen (I use them for BB because of their capping and like IDNet the fact they are a business provider who do provide excellent support)
You can switch between packages without charge, Newnet will charge you about £12.95 to do this but as has been said there is no guarantee this will correct the issue.
Quote from: snadge on Sep 20, 2010, 13:06:54
he told my dad he gets full 8Mb speed but I doubt the legitimacy of his claim because he said 8.1Mb to my dad well we all know thats impossible on IPstream , my dad said he not type to lie and probs got mixed up
The max sync on Max is 8128 which gives a profile of 7150. Therefore, I expect his friend was talking about sync.
The reason you'll only get 7150 is the rest of the bandwidth is taken up with headers for the various layers such as ATM.
I disagree. Whist overheads play their part, they come out of your profile ie the 7150 profile gives max throughput of somewhere around 6950-7050. This is evidenced as well with LLU ISPs who don't have profiles.
Quote from: snadge on Sep 20, 2010, 13:06:54
anyway, the locals are all with BT because most of them have family that work for BT and he spoke to one about a year ago who got 0.3Mbps but BT is like that NO MATTER where you are IMHO on ADSLmax - another is on SKY on the PLOCKTON exchange (IPstream) and he told my dad he gets full 8Mb speed but I doubt the legitimacy of his claim because he said 8.1Mb to my dad well we all know thats impossible on IPstream , my dad said he not type to lie and probs got mixed up
thanks for your help guys...
None of the "exchanges" I mentioned, and I will guess any west of Inverness, have any LLU providers. They are on BT 20CN IPstream or nothing, so there is no choice. The general opinion seems to be that the big providers like Virgin, Sky, TalkTalk/AOL offer a poor service over BT as a result of throttling and insufficient capacity in their private networks. The general opinion is also that the quality providers like IDNET and ZEN have more than adequate private networks and do not in themselves limit the speeds customers see. In the latter case speeds are only limited by line length and quality from the exchange, or by local congestion in the BT network. If that problem cannot be resolved by an IDNET or a Zen working with BT, then it probably is not fixable by any ISP and you are stuck with it till BT address their network. In this sense if IDNET can give you some feed back on the probable cause, Dad could be spared the inconvenience of moving for no gain and, if to an ISP that throttles, a long contract and an inferior service.
I would see if IDNET can give you a reply to both retain a customer and save dissapointment. But, be patient, IDNET often have to wait for BT. I would keep logging BT speed test at the best and worst times of day to provide diagnostic data. It is a good idea to use thinkbroadband for an interim estimate of speed and then BT to confirm it. This works round the one hour BT test lockout.
Sound advice, Dave.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 20, 2010, 15:35:24
Sound advice, Dave.
Do not usually get involved in problems which our experts deal with better. It just happens I was in Balmacara and North Skye last week and I generally spend a good bit of time in the area. The picture is that broadband there is shocking, not just because of line lengths, you have that in MK, but across the street from the "exchange." My speculation is that a DSLAM in a hen hut is called a broadband service and that onward connection is a bit of coax to the next hen hut and then maybe to a luxury hen hut with a microwave link. In short a joke. We are spending a fortune on really usefull Gaelic media and bilingual roadsigns and nothing on teleworking. Henhuts gu brath!
But, apart from that, BT are doing a bang up job, eh? ;)
Quote from: Lance on Sep 20, 2010, 14:47:51
I disagree. Whist overheads play their part, they come out of your profile ie the 7150 profile gives max throughput of somewhere around 6950-7050. This is evidenced as well with LLU ISPs who don't have profiles.
You are also forgetting about latency caused by the equipment processing the packets.
Quote from: Lance on Sep 20, 2010, 14:28:56
The max sync on Max is 8128 which gives a profile of 7150. Therefore, I expect his friend was talking about sync.
no, he wouldnt know what SYNC was if you asked him.
i know theres no LLu up there...
still no reply from IDnet at all?? I think they arent bothering because he went and requested a MAC code - he hasnt run the latency tests for me but says that pages are slower during peak time, when he was with AOL he never got this during peak time - only the drop in speed from 2Mb to 1Mb and YouTUBE would barely work right - latency was still OK though - but I cant be 100% sure as im not at the machine and he hasnt run any tests yet either to test latency during peak time
Oh, and if its IS poor connection from BT to exchanges in scotland - why would they even bother upgrading to ADSLmax? they would just leave the current ADSL system in place would they not? as ADSLmax would have cost lots of money to unbundle for no/little gain in speed? (and we all know what BT are like for penny pinching)
thanks for the advice from you all...
Edit: Personal information removed at the request of Snadge
got email from Brian who says nothing can be done unless it drops below BT's acceptable speed which I already knew...
ah well - its up to my dad now
Quote from: snadge on Sep 21, 2010, 09:17:42
got email from Brian who says nothing can be done unless it drops below BT's acceptable speed which I already knew...
ah well - its up to my dad now
Just been reading your issues, I have to say it is not IDNet here, I get the same speed peak and off peak, when I was on O2 access I could not get over a meg in the evening, coming back to IDNet and its 6.5-6.7 24/7 apart from a few glitches when the routers were switched to give more capacity week or so agao and it was sorted fast, BT own the road and if the road is backed up you wont be going anywhere fast sadly. Hope things improve.
Quote from: Gary on Sep 21, 2010, 09:42:36
Just been reading your issues, I have to say it is not IDNet here, I get the same speed peak and off peak, when I was on O2 access I could not get over a meg in the evening, coming back to IDNet and its 6.5-6.7 24/7 apart from a few glitches when the routers were switched to give more capacity week or so agao and it was sorted fast, BT own the road and if the road is backed up you wont be going anywhere fast sadly. Hope things improve.
yeah,
he said latency was fine during peak slow downs to -30ms - but he said web pages seemed slower during the peak slowdowns, IMO its probably not and he just thinks it is - as long as latency is fine and throughput isnt dropping to "choking" speeds then web-pages will be the same - especially cached web-pages
ive explained all this too him, see what he wants to do - up to him really
shame IDnet or BT couldnt change the VP...
IDNet have, in the past, got BT to move people to different VPs if they could prove it was a hot VP and if BT have one with more capacity.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 21, 2010, 11:36:28
IDNet have, in the past, got BT to move people to different VPs if they could prove it was a hot VP and if BT have one with more capacity.
i suppose that can
only be done if you get crippling speeds lower than theyre "acceptable" range of 0.6Mb for a 7150 profile, am i right?
Quote from: snadge on Sep 21, 2010, 11:33:40
yeah,
he said latency was fine during peak slow downs to -30ms - but he said web pages seemed slower during the peak slowdowns, IMO its probably not and he just thinks it is - as long as latency is fine and throughput isnt dropping to "choking" speeds then web-pages will be the same - especially cached web-pages
ive explained all this too him, see what he wants to do - up to him really
shame IDnet or BT couldnt change the VP...
My latency was about 30ms then BT did some work and even though I'm using wifi on my mac (5GHz) its about 15ms now they finished. but even with 30ms pages were not
that slow.
Quote from: snadge on Sep 21, 2010, 11:38:44
i suppose that can only be done if you get crippling speeds lower than theyre "acceptable" range of 0.6Mb for a 7150 profile, am i right?
Essentially, yes, Snadge, and you'll have noticed how wide an acceptable range BT like to give themselves. :(
Quote from: Rik on Sep 21, 2010, 11:41:57
Essentially, yes, Snadge, and you'll have noticed how wide an acceptable range BT like to give themselves. :(
Basically apart from a disaster they are covered :(
Quote from: Gary on Sep 21, 2010, 11:46:50
Basically apart from a disaster they are covered :(
:laugh: yup
i think acceptable latency on interlaced lines is 40ms and below - this is considered to be "normal" - i get about 29ms on my line with o2 LLu and the interlacing depth is a whopping 160
BT, the heart of the nation's communications. Makes you think, doesn't it.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 21, 2010, 11:53:28
BT, the heart of the nation's communications. Makes you think, doesn't it.
yup - like my dad says "doesnt matter who you go with BT still have control of yer line..."
Exactly. >:(
Be are another BT in the making I reckon.
Once they have enough lines under their jurisdiction they will be reluctant to do much if anything just like BT.
It's what being British is all about, learning to form an orderly queue. ;)
I'll be asking a lot of questions before I get FTTP installed as I'll be committing myself to a 12 month minimum term.
I have no problem about committing to Zen on a long term contract but its always the 'BT factor' that worries me.
It's almost as bad as the X Factor, isn't it. ;D
The Xfactor is far worse. You don't have to see Simon Cowell with Zen.
This is true. ;D
I'll be glad to move my lines to IDNet as it'll be cheaper and from what has been said on here and elsewhere they sound all together more pleasant to deal with.
Rang Phone Coop the other day to start closing the account with them and the person sounded like they wanted to chuck themselves off a building.
Maz only does that on Friday afternoons. ;)
Maz?
Miriam. :)
Ah, I knew of someone called Mario who always was referred to as Maz so I got a little confused.
Definitely a different person. ;)
Definitely.
Noticed she hasn't posted lately, you think Q scared her off?
No, she's just been busy with the new services, network upgrades and holiday season. She'll be back. :)
Hope so. :)
Quote from: pctech on Sep 21, 2010, 18:52:26
Definitely.
Noticed she hasn't posted lately, you think Q scared her off?
I thought it was a deliberate ploy but the other way round. >:D
He has asked 2 locals (one on plockton and one next door to him) to run tests at peak time (the plockton is SKY connect (IPstream) which we all know is PAP - watch it turn out to be better - came in at 6.5 at 5pm - my sis is on SKY connect and choked to death 1Mb 24/7 on a 4Mb lin, and his neighbour who is new to BT to do same to see if we can paint a picture of whats going on
cheers