I've been a LLU user for the best part of 7 years now. I worked for and started off with Ukonline (my work involved rolling out ADSL2+ over the Easynet network) and following that I spent 5 years with Bethere. As a result this is my first experience of BT Wholesale for a very long time.
It was Monday morning that I had "IDNet Home Plus Fibre" installed and I've been monitoring it with some interest since and these are my findings and opinions over this short period so far.
Latency
Relatively low and extremely stable. It's annoying not having control over Fastpath (Bethere allows the customer to switch between Fastpath and Interleaving themselves at the click of a button) but I can live with it.
(http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-thumb/c58d7e3b4be385009f72a87c9c9fffef-25-08-2010.png) (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/c58d7e3b4be385009f72a87c9c9fffef-25-08-2010.html)
Upload
Perfect! Fast and consistent. If I upload a large file to my website it reaches maximum upload speed and stays there rock solid until the file has been uploaded.
(Red obviously denotes upload)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/6c9efcd4.jpg)
Download
I think abysmal is the right word it use here. My download speeds are all over the place with absolutely no consistency whatsoever.
If I download a large file, 1GB, from a known good source, http://www.thinkbroadband.com/download.html , my speed fluctuates massively and there's no stability at all.
With Bethere, even though my download sync/speed was less at 16mbps, it actually downloaded at that speed with little to no fluctuation at all. With my current IDNet connection my download speed can be 36mbps one second and 2mbps the next.
This afternoon -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/0116a0ed.jpg)
Late last night -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/c07a1853.jpg)
Download from Rapidshare (Premium account) using Rapidshare DL manager -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/56a565c3.jpg)
Download from Newsgroups/Usenet, European server, 20 connections -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/b56210ed.jpg)
Download from Microsoft Download Center (Office 2010 trial) -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v427/griff_90/240e7e0d.jpg)
Obviously when downloading large files I expect the speed to fluctuate slightly but this can't be normal can it?
Do any other IDNet "Fibre" customers experience the same? Is this considered normal for a BT Wholesale product? Is it poor peering?
Any help and/or suggestions would be appreciated.
For the record the Openreach/Huawei modem is connected to a Netgear WGR614 which in turn is connected to this PC via CAT6 cable. No other devices are attached to the router and wireless has been disabled)
I'm not fortunate enough to have any experience. :( Have you spoken to support.
Quote from: Rik on Aug 26, 2010, 18:25:34
I'm not fortunate enough to have any experience. :( Have you spoken to support.
Not yet. I'm hoping someone from (or connected to) support will see this and comment.
Obviously it's a lot easier to explain/demonstrate my concern in this format rather than over a telephone.
You could email them. :)
Call them and point them to this thread. They do read the boards when they have time, but I can't guarantee they'll see this...
Quote from: Simon on Aug 26, 2010, 18:30:28
You could email them. :)
That's the plan tomorrow. In the meantime I'm hoping some other IDNet FTTC customers can confirm or deny they experience the same.
Quote from: .Griff. on Aug 26, 2010, 18:21:33
Do any other IDNet "Fibre" customers experience the same? Is this considered normal for a BT Wholesale product? Is it poor peering?
It's not greatly dissimilar to what I'm getting, though mine has stayed on fastpath and you've had one more day than I have.
Speed is (mostly) a hell of a lot faster than it was on ADSL2+ but consistent? No way. About the only time I can get a "flat topped" trace on a download is between 11pm and midnight, and maybe after about 1:30am but haven't tried that yet.
Haven't done any serious uploading yet so can't really comment, but the speedtests
are consistent (at about 8Mbps) on those.
Router is an Apple Airport Extreme via Cat5, various other devices and wireless g and n, but there's no correlation with what's happening on the rest of the LAN.
It's very odd...
Perhaps this example just shows the state of BTs backhaul I don't see it, as the effects are dampened on adslmax.
Quote from: Bill on Aug 26, 2010, 18:32:22Speed is (mostly) a hell of a lot faster than it was on ADSL2+ but consistent? No way.
That's my concern. My max speed on this connection is clearly way above what I could achieve with my previous LLU ADSL2+ connection. However taking into consideration the massive fluctuation in download speed my actual download speed (as an average across the download) is slower than my previous connection.
I'm glad you're testing it for me. ;)
Quote from: .Griff. on Aug 26, 2010, 18:43:41my actual download speed (as an average across the download) is slower than my previous connection.
Not seeing that, my slowest is still about twice what I was getting before.
I think you said you were about 400 metres from the cabinet? I'm less than 200 metres from mine, I wonder if that matters? Though I'm damned if I see how, you going on to interleaved should have sorted that out.
I saw the same thing a while ago (and it still is the same), contacted IDNet support which advised to run tests for 24 hours, so I did and logged them.
An engineer got sent and he did identify some fault on the line which he said was somewhere between the cabinet and my house, he spent 4-5 hours fixing it to no luck and then left. Next day I saw an engineer fixing at the same place and left after 2 hours but I didn't speak to him. I'm not sure exactly what the fault was or if it got fixed. Support told me to advice if the speeds stay low consistently as they can't raise a fault without me getting speeds below 12 meg on bt speedtests.
My distance to cabinet is about 150 meters
[BT Speedtests]
(4 August 2010)
Test1 @ 16:30
DL: 34960
UL: 8229
Test2 @ 17:36
DL: 21771
UL: 7880
Test3 @ 18:49
DL: 27317
UL: 8070
Test4 @ 19:57
DL: 13918
UL: 8215
Test5 @ 21:00
DL: 9751
UL: 8205
Test5EXTENDED @ 21:03
DL: 19063
UL: 8190
Test6 @ 22:10
DL: 31489
UL: 7707
Test7 @ 23:32
DL: 28133
UL: 8072
(5 August 2010)
Test8 @ 00:35
DL: 16585
UL: 8235
Test9 @ 01:41
DL: 33261
UL: 8233
Test10 @ 02:47
DL: 35284
UL: 8228
Test11 @ 10:15
DL: 34498
UL: 7100
Test12 @ 12:13
DL: 35700
UL: 8269
Test13 @ 13:17
DL: 20650
UL: 8101
Test14 @ 14:19
DL: 33716
UL: 7699
As you can see speeds are all over the shop but after 01:30-02:00 midnight they are consistent at maximum speeds until 10:00-12:00 morning.
There's also one thing I noticed which was using modem -> router -> pc (wired) gives me 2 ms more latency and about 2-4 meg less speed than going from modem -> pc through PC PPPoE connection. WGR614 is somehow slowing it a bit, but as I have no other cable routers I can't check if it's the same with all routers.
Quote from: sof2er on Aug 26, 2010, 19:07:56some fault on the line which he said was somewhere between the cabinet and my house
So three of us have got the same line fault... methinks I detect a whiff of bovine excrement somewhere.
I'll give mine a few days to see what happens, in particular how it behaves over a weekend. On my exchange it seems to be businesses that cause the biggest slowdowns, if the weekends show a different pattern then it pretty well has to be an exchange or backhaul problem.
QuoteThere's also one thing I noticed which was using modem -> router -> pc (wired) gives me 2 ms more latency and about 2-4 meg less speed than going from modem -> pc through PC PPPoE connection. WGR614 is somehow slowing it a bit, but as I have no other cable routers I can't check if it's the same with all routers.
Someone else reported that over on tbb... don't think it was the same router, but like the WGR614 it only had 10/100 Ethernet ports, implying a slower internal processor that maybe couldn't keep up with fibre speeds? Mine's got gigabit ports, I'll give that a try sometime. Though it won't really matter either way, I
need that router in there!
I'll be watching this thread with interest as I'm due for a BT visit to hook me up next week.
And we'll be looking forward with interest to see how your connection behaves ;D
We already know like a Ferrari on the M25 in rush hour :out:
:lol: and :lol:
As my upgrade to WBC went completely pear shaped I'm somewhat concerned about what might happen :wimp:
Glutton for punishment I think is the phrase ;D
The engineer did say the fault was on all lines in our area or something, might not be related to the case perhaps. He was talking over the phone about some db level being too high or low, I can't recall.
Quote from: sof2er on Aug 27, 2010, 01:00:45
The engineer did say the fault was on all lines in our area or something
Yeah- too many people using them to download data :P
The BT speedtester seems to be playing up for me, it fails and when I try again says I have to wait an hour after a successful run. Usual way of reducing the complaint level :mad:
They're picking on you, Bill. ;)
That BT speedtester never has liked me, now it's giving me "Access Denied" errors when the download starts :vangry:
(I knew it would be a post about BT when I used that smiley :P)
;D
That speedtester really is rubbish... it just gave me:
QuoteThe Performance Tester is now testing Broadband connection. Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 750 k
Please do not move away from this page and do not start any other download activity on your computer.
and hung, so (slightly alarmed!!) I ran speedtest.net:
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/929845460.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
IT HATES ME!!!!
What did you say to it to upset it so much, Bill? ;)
Nothing that would get past your swear filter :P
;D
That thing needs a sanity check...
Download speed achieved during the test was - 31584 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 12000-4000 Kbps .
Additional Information:
IP Profile for your line is -4000 Kbps
Upload speed achieved during the test was - 7666 Kbps
Additional Information:
Upstream Rate IP profile on your line is - 10000 Kbps
:dunno:
I think they need to sit down and re-write the tester, it's full of mayhem.
Is the fault in the line that it has "BT" stickers on it? Or that it's copper? Or that the exchange and hardware just cannot cope with the upgrades. :shake:
All of the above. ;D
We could do with a few more of those easy questions :thumb:
Guys what's the length of the cooling off period with IDNet?
Not sure there is one, but it's only a 1 month contract.
Quote from: Simon on Aug 27, 2010, 15:21:30
Not sure there is one, but it's only a 1 month contract.
There's no cooling off period??!? Erm isn't that breaking the law?
As for the 1 month contract -
QuoteFibre services have a minimum 12 month contract
Fibre is a 12 month contract, Simon http://www.idnet.net/solutions/home/broadband/default-fibre.jsp
Griff, give support a call and ask.
This is getting ugly.
As support closes at 6.30pm in the evenings I sent an email last night outlining my concerns and asking someone to call me today to discuss the issue. Instead of this I received a generic/default email this morning pointing to to BT's speedtest. That was it.. No elaboration, no comments, nothing.
I've just called support and they couldn't be less interested. "That's how it is.." and "What do you want us to do about it" are two direct quotes. I was also told IDNet do not have a cooling off period which is odd as I'm pretty sure it's UK law for all contracts (with a few specific exceptions) to have a cooling off period.
Apparently a director is going to call me back.
Cooling off periods only apply to certain types of sales, mainly distance selling, eg insurance and goods. Services are not generally covered by a cooling off period because costs are incurred at the start of the contract.
Keep us updated!
I'm thinking it might be congestion affecting the DL speeds, strangely enough the upload speeds remain solid as a rock at any time of the day.
I'm not entirely sure about how DL Speeds are calculated, is it shared with all users on the exchange/cabinet or is it shared with the users of the same ISP on that exchange ?
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 15:59:31
Cooling off periods only apply to certain types of sales, mainly distance selling, eg insurance and goods. Services are not generally covered by a cooling off period because costs are incurred at the start of the contract.
Rik you're preaching to someone who's family are all solicitors. That aside every ISP I've worked with or had professional dealings with (Remember I worked for a prominent ISP before) have cooling off periods.
I'll leave you to talk to Simon.
Rik would you know Simons surname at all? I forgot to ask when he called.
Davies.
Thank you.
I'm not as hacked off as Griff, but something isn't right somewhere... the BT tester is (more or less) on speaking terms with me again, so I've been running tests during the day on that and, as close to it as possible, the tbb one.
Some very odd results... the tbb tester gives me anything from 15 to 30+Mbps download but a rock solid 8Mbps upload. BT gives more consistent download speeds (>25Mbps) but upload varies from 3-7Mbps. Huh?
Always well over the fault level of 12Mbps.
I'll keep it up for a few more days before tabulating the results, but something doesn't look right to me :(
I suspect it will come down to BT backhaul not being adequate, just as it wasn't when ADSL2+ was launched, Bill.
It could well be, I'm not necessarily blaming IDNet, but why does the BT tester show possible congestion on uploading whereas the tbb one never does?
I've NEVER had congested uploading before...
Bill I think it's clear the BT Speedtest is a waste of time. It's obviously in BT's interest for people to get good results from it so it's hardly independent and given the ridiculous tolerances (12mbps to 37mbps is acceptable for a 40mbps connection) there's not much to be gained from it. BT will obviously just turn round and say our connections fall within the set allowances so go away and stop bothering us.
I am however making a record of tests as requested.
You've never had the ability to upload so fast, Bill. FTTC is too new for there to be much 'body of experience' in the forum, so we can only guess at what is going on. The one fact that we do have is that BT didn't upgrade their network before launching ADSL2+ and, for several months, there were speed problems as they appeared to juggle with the available bandwidth. Knowing their ability to plan, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the same hasn't happened again.
Quote from: .Griff. on Aug 27, 2010, 17:28:06
given the ridiculous tolerances (12mbps to 37mbps is acceptable for a 40mbps connection)
I couldn't agree more about the acceptable range on all BT BB services. Unfortunately, they make the rules, and there's little or nothing any ISP who is re-selling BT services can do about it. I've even argued the point with BT's CEO but got nowhere.
Quote from: .Griff. on Aug 27, 2010, 17:28:06
Bill I think it's clear the BT Speedtest is a waste of time.
I don't think it's far out on the speeds it gives- I watch the transfers on the Mac's Network monitor and they're consistent with that.
I'm logging all my results too.
I don't disagree with the speeds BT Speedtests report but what I meant it how relevant is the tester to the rest of the internet?!?
I just think it's narrow-minded for BT to dictate our connections are fine simply because they work ok with their test site. What about all the other websites, ftp, Usenet etc we download from. For all we know BT could give higher priority to the traffic using the speedtest which is why our results from it don't reflect our results from other download sources.
That's essentially what I meant when I said BT's speedtest was a waste of time.
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 17:28:29
You've never had the ability to upload so fast, Bill. FTTC is too new for there to be much 'body of experience' in the forum
It's alsotoo new to have had a large take-up yet, and I don't think the extra usage so far (from everyone, not just IDNet users) would have had much effect yet.
Don't forget that unless someone drastically changes their usage pattern, they may be downloading faster but not for as long, so it should balance out to a large extent.
If BT have made a cock-up again (quite likely) I'd think it's more likely to be in the load sharing or something where the fibre part of the network joins the copper-based bit.
Just a quick thought Bill.. Are you on a standard or premium package?
Quote from: Bill on Aug 27, 2010, 17:36:57
I'd think it's more likely to be in the load sharing or something where the fibre part of the network joins the copper-based bit.
In the latter case, that's now the cabinet.
Quote from: .Griff. on Aug 27, 2010, 17:34:21
I don't disagree with the speeds BT Speedtests report but what I meant it how relevant is the tester to the rest of the internet?!?
Ah, OK... but how relevant is any speedtest to the rest of the internet? All it tells you is how fast the line was at a specific moment to a specific server over a specific route :(
On the whole I'm finding my connection nice and quick for general use, it's the anomalies that are bothering me.
And if Rik is right and it's lack of backhaul, God help us when the Olympics start and half the population is using FTTC :bawl:
:lol:
No problems, Bill, for everything else you have TV. ;)
Quote from: .Griff. on Aug 27, 2010, 17:39:42
Just a quick thought Bill.. Are you on a standard or premium package?
I'm on the Home Plus package, one up from the bottom one.
Quote from: Bill on Aug 27, 2010, 17:41:51
On the whole I'm finding my connection nice and quick for general use, it's the anomalies that are bothering me.
That's maybe where we differ. My BT speedtests are generally fine and consistent. EVERY other download source is poor.
That suggests to me BT are giving priority routing and/or traffic to their own tester to encourage beneficial results.
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 17:40:11
In the latter case, that's now the cabinet.
No, I meant where the fibre(s?) from the cabinets feed into the start of the exchange backhaul, ie joining the feed from all the exchange-based MSANs.
Quote from: Bill on Aug 27, 2010, 17:43:49
I'm on the Home Plus package, one up from the bottom one.
Same. I wonder what the "Premium" package is like as it has "Priority given at the exchange over standard ADSL traffic"
Quote from: Bill on Aug 27, 2010, 17:46:26
No, I meant where the fibre(s?) from the cabinets feed into the start of the exchange backhaul, ie joining the feed from all the exchange-based MSANs.
Ah, got you...
I guess that's the difficult balancing act as a few P2Ps going full throttle on fibre are going to screw the exchange for adsl2+ etc.
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 17:43:24
:lol:
No problems, Bill, for everything else you have TV. ;)
The TV will be wall to wall Olympics, I want to use the internet to get away from it!!
Couldn't agree more Bill.
I'll be on holiday. :)
On a positive note (See I can do positive as well as negative ;) ) my pings improved yesterday.. Not sure what exactly happened at 1.45pm but I'm not complaining.
(http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-large/93eb30bf008326ee8bca9c2cc665c4d2-26-08-2010.png)
How do they compare with your ADSL pings?
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 17:54:43
I'll be on holiday. :)
I'll be working no doubt.
I cba'd to post a graph, but my pings are a lot better (12msec down from ~25) too, and the BQM shows a lot less spikes.
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 17:58:14
How do they compare with your ADSL pings?
Lower by about 12ms on average than they were on ADSL.
Quote from: Bill on Aug 27, 2010, 17:59:38
I cba'd to post a graph, but my pings are a lot better (12msec down from ~25) too, and the BQM shows a lot less spikes.
Were you interleaved, Bill?
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 18:01:23
Were you interleaved, Bill?
Bill's still on FP iirc.
Quote from: .Griff. on Aug 27, 2010, 18:00:47
Lower by about 12ms on average than they were on ADSL.
Similar to Bill's improvement. If that holds for all fibre, I stand to get a 3ms ping.
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 18:01:23
Were you interleaved, Bill?
I was interleaved on ADSL2+. but fastpath now (I assume).
:thumb:
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 18:02:09
Similar to Bill's improvement. If that holds for all fibre, I stand to get a 3ms ping.
Get what's left of the aluminium replaced with copper and the reply packets will be arriving before you send the ping :P
;D
The bit from the cabinet is copper. :)
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 18:07:54
;D
The bit from the cabinet is copper. :)
I didn't realise that, I thought you were ali all the way from the exchange to the NTE5.
The last bit was laid later, when I had a second line put in. :)
They are trialling fibre to the premises in MK so with that you may get a 3ms ping.
I'm game for that, so to speak. :)
I've just got to find an ISP that will service the connection.
Maybe the AA would be better. :hehe:
BT :evil:
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 19:15:15
Maybe the AA would be better. :hehe:
You should know, the AA are in Basingstoke, not MK.
They were in Tebay when I needed them. ;D
Quote from: Glenn on Aug 27, 2010, 19:15:57
BT :evil:
Don't you mean telephone network providings.
Quote from: Rik on Aug 27, 2010, 18:02:09
Similar to Bill's improvement. If that holds for all fibre, I stand to get a 3ms ping.
Quote from: Bill on Aug 27, 2010, 18:06:57
Get what's left of the aluminium replaced with copper and the reply packets will be arriving before you send the ping :P
That's the least I'm expecting when I get connected next week ;D
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7600]
Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
C:\Users\zappaDPJ>ping bbc.co.uk
Pinging bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 212.58.224.138: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=122
Reply from 212.58.224.138: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=122
Reply from 212.58.224.138: bytes=32 time=10ms TTL=122
Reply from 212.58.224.138: bytes=32 time=11ms TTL=122
Ping statistics for 212.58.224.138:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 10ms, Maximum = 11ms, Average = 10ms
C:\Users\zappaDPJ>