Hello,
one of my friends has had BT Broadband Option One since early December and I realised that her internet connection is really quite slow.
I discovered her BT BRAS profile is only set at 1000Kbps with a maximum available speed of 200-1000Kbps. She is on the same exchange as me, which is non-LLU and the equivalent to my package with IDNet. I get a good consistent 4.5Mbps with my IDNet so I am thinking that BT has set her BRAS profile too low? I don't really understand enough about BRAS to know whether this is the case or whether the BRAS profile of 1000Kbps is a capped maximum amount that she is allowed under BT's Option 1? When doing speed tests at different times of the day, she is getting just under 1000Kbps download speed - 960Kbps. I would greatly appreciate knowing whether it is worth her contacting BT about raising her BRAS profile so she can get much better download speeds? I have just set her up with a lovely new HP laptop with Windows 7 so it would be nice to get her download speeds increased so she can maximise her enjoyment of it.
Tina.
BT Option 1 is up to 8 meg, so assuming otherwise identical conditions, she should get the same as you.
However, before contacting BT, rule out any internal wiring problems or noise (I once had a PC monitor that crippled my internet connection), AM radio tuned to white noise seems to be the favoured approach.
Steve
Quote from: D-Dan on Jan 14, 2010, 20:56:12
BT Option 1 is up to 8 meg, so assuming otherwise identical conditions, she should get the same as you.
However, before contacting BT, rule out any internal wiring problems or noise (I once had a PC monitor that crippled my internet connection), AM radio tuned to white noise seems to be the favoured approach.
Steve
That's exactly what I thought Steve, that Option 1 is up to 8MB, but though I don't really understand the BRAS profile, it seems to clearly state that she will not get more than 1000Kbps download speed whilst that profile is set to achieve no more than 1000Kbps and that it can go as low as 200Kbps, so I don't think noise is the issue here....? :)
Tina
The BRAS profile is related to the downstream sync of the router/modem probably a home hub in your friends case,what you need is the results of a BT speedtest http://www.speedtester.bt.com/ and also the home hub connection stats which you can find details of here http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php#10
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 14, 2010, 21:00:17
That's exactly what I thought Steve, that Option 1 is up to 8MB, but though I don't really understand the BRAS profile, it seems to clearly state that she will not get more than 1000Kbps download speed whilst that profile is set to achieve no more than 1000Kbps and that it can go as low as 200Kbps, so I don't think noise is the issue here....? :)
As Steve (the other one) has said, bRAS is related to sync speed, and sync can be affected by local conditions (i.e. in the home) which is why I suggest some indoor diagnostics first. If BT come out and find an internal problem, they will charge through the nose for the privilege.
Steve
Quote from: Steve on Jan 14, 2010, 21:00:49
Tina
The BRAS profile is related to the downstream sync of the router/modem probably a home hub in your friends case,what you need is the results of a BT speedtest http://www.speedtester.bt.com/ and also the home hub connection stats which you can find details of here http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php#10
Hi Steve, thanks for info on BRAS, though I am still not that clear about it. It did seem to state that it isn't possible for my friend to get beyond 1Mb download as it states this is the maximum available. I did a BT speedtest earlier today when I was there and the result was 960Kbps. I will check the web site, but I am assuming I will need to be on her system so I mght have to leave that until I am there again tomorrow.
See here for more info on bRAS:
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm
Steve
Quote from: D-Dan on Jan 14, 2010, 21:06:56
See here for more info on bRAS:
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm
Steve
Thanks Steve, I am currently trying to get my (tired) head around the info on the web site. The info I got from performing the speedtest today was:
923 Kbps achieved (not 960 that I previously stated). Max available speed is 200-1000Kbps. DSL connection rate is 1472Kbps and IP profile for the line is 1000Kbps. These are the full stats that the BT speedtester gave me for her line. All BT sockets have a ADSL filter attached. One of the sockets is right near to the TV and my friend has Sky.
I tried to do a BT test on my line earlier to check my BRAS profile, but it errored out.
OK, in a nutshell, the router will sync at what seems a stable speed. The bRAS profile will be determined by a sustained sync speed. The higher the sync, the higher the profile. The profile will limit download speed, which is in turn limited by sync speed.
So, to achieve a higher profile, a higher sync needs to be achieved. Since sync can affected by indoor wiring, noisy electrical equipment etc. the bRAS will be crippled as a side effect. The trick is to ensure that internal conditions are optimal first. Only then, when you are sure that nothing indoors is causing the problem, should you call BT out. Then the odds are that they will find factors outside of the home that are affecting the connection, and only then do they have an obligation to fix it without charge.
Steve
In addition to the above omitting potential issues such as internal noise and the overall quality of the phone line, the downstream sync is directly related to distance the phone line travels from the exchange i.e a high sync means your are near to the exchange and vice versa, to get a clue to this it would be nice to know the downstream attenuation from the router stats, a low attenuation i.e 15 means the distance to the exchange is very short and 60 would mean its a lot further away. It could well be that this line is working at its maximum speed due to the distance from the local exchange.
Quote from: D-Dan on Jan 14, 2010, 21:24:28
OK, in a nutshell, the router will sync at what seems a stable speed. The bRAS profile will be determined by a sustained sync speed. The higher the sync, the higher the profile. The profile will limit download speed, which is in turn limited by sync speed.
So, to achieve a higher profile, a higher sync needs to be achieved. Since sync can affected by indoor wiring, noisy electrical equipment etc. the bRAS will be crippled as a side effect. The trick is to ensure that internal conditions are optimal first. Only then, when you are sure that nothing indoors is causing the problem, should you call BT out. Then the odds are that they will find factors outside of the home that are affecting the connection, and only then do they have an obligation to fix it without charge.
Steve
Thanks for all this - I have no intention of calling out BT, but as my friend's connection with BT is pretty new, I thought maybe they had not set something right their end as I remember BT doing something with my BRAS once after an engineer came out when my speed dropped to 128k and once they had done this, it was 5Mb. I have just successfully done my BT test and look at the difference between mine and hers? I can't help feeling that BT has something not set right their end..
How do I post my screen shot/image?
Quote from: Steve on Jan 14, 2010, 21:36:48
In addition to the above omitting potential issues such as internal noise and the overall quality of the phone line, the downstream sync is directly related to distance the phone line travels from the exchange i.e a high sync means your are near to the exchange and vice versa, to get a clue to this it would be nice to know the downstream attenuation from the router stats, a low attenuation i.e 15 means the distance to the exchange is very short and 60 would mean its a lot further away. It could well be that this line is working at its maximum speed due to the distance from the local exchange.
She is pretty much the same distance as me on same exchange and my IP profile is 5000kbps hers is 1000. My connection can apparently achieve over 7mb.
Quote from: D-Dan on Jan 14, 2010, 21:24:28
OK, in a nutshell, the router will sync at what seems a stable speed. The bRAS profile will be determined by a sustained sync speed. The higher the sync, the higher the profile. The profile will limit download speed, which is in turn limited by sync speed.
So, to achieve a higher profile, a higher sync needs to be achieved. Since sync can affected by indoor wiring, noisy electrical equipment etc. the bRAS will be crippled as a side effect. The trick is to ensure that internal conditions are optimal first. Only then, when you are sure that nothing indoors is causing the problem, should you call BT out. Then the odds are that they will find factors outside of the home that are affecting the connection, and only then do they have an obligation to fix it without charge.
Steve
I get you - I think, my interpretation is: The router will settle on a speed (Sync) based on a kind of average determined over a period of time and the bRAS profile will then be set according to what that average ends up being. So, the Sync speed determines the eventual profile and for some reason the sync speed is not as high as it should be given certain factors and hence the low IP profile and the profile is directly related to the download speed, in my friend's case, around 950k.
The sync speed is the all important thing and the rate at which the sync speed averages at can be influenced by noise on the line and other factors such as distance from exchange...?
Sorry to be a pain, but I do like to try and understand these things and I greatly and gratefully like to pick the brains of those who to them, these things are simple! Hopefully, with the help of you and others, these things will finally sink into my brain! ;D
Close enough :thumb:
So step one: Rule out internal problems. As has been said, if you are on otherwise identical lines, it points to an internal issue. Have her disconnect all extensions, plug the router into the test socket. Walk around with the detuned radio looking for noise etc.
If you find an internal issue, cure it, and then, unfortunately, you have to play the waiting game (10 days for a re-train of the line).
Keep us posted.
Steve
I think you're there pretty much.
The profile is based on the current sync if the sync has reduced, or can take up to 5 days to catch up if the sync has increased. The profile is the absolutely limit of download. As for sync being affected by noise and distance you are spot on. Unfortunately, poor filters and other interference from within the home can have a much bigger impact than noise sources elsewhere along the line.
Quote from: D-Dan on Jan 14, 2010, 21:56:35
Close enough :thumb:
So step one: Rule out internal problems. As has been said, if you are on otherwise identical lines, it points to an internal issue. Have her disconnect all extensions, plug the router into the test socket. Walk around with the detuned radio looking for noise etc.
If you find an internal issue, cure it, and then, unfortunately, you have to play the waiting game (10 days for a re-train of the line).
Keep us posted.
Steve
Erm, walk around with 'a detuned radio'? I only know how to change from Smooth radio to Radio 2.... :)
Quote from: Lance on Jan 14, 2010, 21:59:07
I think you're there pretty much.
The profile is based on the current sync if the sync has reduced, or can take up to 5 days to catch up if the sync has increased. The profile is the absolutely limit of download. As for sync being affected by noise and distance you are spot on. Unfortunately, poor filters and other interference from within the home can have a much bigger impact than noise sources elsewhere along the line.
I see, so methinks then that as she is as close to the exchange as I am - albeit in the opposite direction and my BT speed test stats are as follows (way superior to hers): Best Effort Test: Download speed 4468Kbps, 7150Kbps Max Acheiveable Speed, Acceptable range of speeds for my connection:- 600-7150Kbps, DSL connection rate: 5888Kbps (hers is only 1472Kbps), IP Profile for my line is: 5000Kbps (hers 1000). I deduce that a). I do not have any internal noise/wiring issues and b). she most definitely does have - or some other problem at least, not thought of/ascertained as yet....
This is what I know of her set up:
- There are 3-4 filters in sockets where phones are directly plugged into.
- She has an answering machine.
- The BT Home Hub is connected via BT socket RJ45 jack (about half a metre from desktop PC) to Lan connection on PC. There isn't an ADSL filter in this socket and assume that because no phone is plugged into it that it doesn't need one...?
- The desktop PC is connected to an all-in-one printer that sits directly underneath it.
- There is a fax (not used)/copy machine (copy part of it used - I think this is left plugged in...
I can't think of anything else at the moment, other than TV and Sky that could be affecting things in terms of producing static/noise...
Tina this bits puzzling me
-
The BT Home Hub is connected via BT socket RJ45 jack (about half a metre from desktop PC) to Lan connection on PC. There isn't an ADSL filter in this socket and assume that because no phone is plugged into it that it doesn't need one...?
My brains getting tired but how can the router be connected to the socket without a filter as the cable won't fit unless its a socket with separate inputs for broadband and phone
I stand by disconnecting all extensions - sounds like the phone system may be overloaded. I'm frankly surprised her phone rings.
Steve
I should qualify that - the REN (Ringer Equivalence Number) on a domestic line is typically limited to 4 - which will usually mean no more that 3 extensions (and the main line). She may be over-loading it.
Steve
Quote from: Steve on Jan 14, 2010, 22:27:19
Tina this bits puzzling me
-
The BT Home Hub is connected via BT socket RJ45 jack (about half a metre from desktop PC) to Lan connection on PC. There isn't an ADSL filter in this socket and assume that because no phone is plugged into it that it doesn't need one...?
My brains getting tired but how can the router be connected to the socket without a filter as the cable won't fit unless its a socket with separate inputs for broadband and phone
Sorry, I think I am getting confused with the RJ45 jack thingy. I used to know what it meant when I was an IT technician back in the days of sneaker net, token ring and MS Dos... but a decorator for 6 years (going back to IT) has clouded my brain so all I see now is Dulux...Dulux... Dulux
Sorry, I waffle - tiredness and red wine thing. I will try to clarify: The modem cable is plugged directly into the BT wall socket and then into the modem and then a LAN cable goes from the modem into the LAN socket on the desktop...
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 14, 2010, 22:38:16
Sorry, I think I am getting confused with the RJ45 jack thingy. I used to know what it meant when I was an IT technician back in the days of sneaker net, token ring and MS Dos... but a decorator for 6 years (going back to IT) has clouded my brain so all I see now is Dulux...Dulux... Dulux
Sorry, I waffle - tiredness and red wine thing. I will try to clarify: The modem cable is plugged directly into the BT wall socket and then into the modem and then a LAN cable goes from the modem into the LAN socket on the desktop...
Ooer, sorry, sorry sorry, I am getting silly now aren't I - I think there must be a little plug in the phone socket for the modem cable with a telephone socket, but there isn't a phone plugged into it. There is definitely not an ADSL filter in that socket though.
I think that maybe I need to check all this when I am there tomorrow so I don't waste any more of anyone's time with such befuddled silliness. Soz. ::)
Quote from: D-Dan on Jan 14, 2010, 22:36:54
I stand by disconnecting all extensions - sounds like the phone system may be overloaded. I'm frankly surprised her phone rings.
Steve
I should qualify that - the REN (Ringer Equivalence Number) on a domestic line is typically limited to 4 - which will usually mean no more that 3 extensions (and the main line). She may be over-loading it.
Steve
Yes,
I think it is rather a confusing set up! I will try disconnecting all extensions. There is another thing, she is paranoid about leaving things on and I don't think the hub has been on since it was installed in December for more than a few hours at a time - she switches it off when she turns off the desktop - I guess this might be why it has synced so low with it not being left on for about 10 days or doesn't it matter that she switches it off? I understand it should be left on during that time...? I hadn't thought of this earlier...
Quote from: Steve on Jan 14, 2010, 21:36:48
In addition to the above omitting potential issues such as internal noise and the overall quality of the phone line, the downstream sync is directly related to distance the phone line travels from the exchange i.e a high sync means your are near to the exchange and vice versa, to get a clue to this it would be nice to know the downstream attenuation from the router stats, a low attenuation i.e 15 means the distance to the exchange is very short and 60 would mean its a lot further away. It could well be that this line is working at its maximum speed due to the distance from the local exchange.
My downstream attenuation is 44db so hers should be around the same as the exchange is located roughly the same distance away from us both.
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 14, 2010, 23:15:47
My downstream attenuation is 44db so hers should be around the same as the exchange is located roughly the same distance away from us both.
Hi Tina
Not necessarily, it depends on the route that her phone line takes to get to the exchange. For example, my house is about 100 yards from the exchange, as the crow flies, and yet my line is 1.5 miles long - it literally goes round the bypass and then comes back into town.
Simon
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 14, 2010, 22:01:21
Erm, walk around with 'a detuned radio'? I only know how to change from Smooth radio to Radio 2.... :)
OK. You need a small portable radio with AM bands - not a DAB portable. Switch it to Medium Wave and set the tuning to around 60/63 kHz. Now all you should hear is white noise - some radio hams used to call it 'shash' - but you'll know it when you hear it. Key is to not be able to hear any radio station, but a steady background 'rushing' sound.
Now try moving the radio near an energy saving light bulb and the noise will increase dramatically. This is the noise you are looking for. Now if you move the radio round the house, you will pick up where the noise is that potentially will be picked up by you phone line and broadband kit. Follow the phone line and see whether there are any areas where there is a significant increase in noise, which the line might be picking up.
It's not an exact science and won't necessarily tell you where the noise is coming from, but it will let you know it's there. You can then take such action as you are able.
HTH :)
But before you do anything else, Tina, check the attenuation of her line. Otherwise you may be chasing ghosts.
Given you say that phones are plugged directly into the other sockets, I'm guessing that she has a filtered faceplate, one socket for the phone one (smaller) one for the router. If this is not the case, it's probably her phones causing the problem, so, as has been suggested, unplug them all.
Quote from: Simon_idnet on Jan 15, 2010, 03:58:48
Hi Tina
Not necessarily, it depends on the route that her phone line takes to get to the exchange. For example, my house is about 100 yards from the exchange, as the crow flies, and yet my line is 1.5 miles long - it literally goes round the bypass and then comes back into town.
Simon
Oh right, thanks Simon. I will check it with BT tester. Thanks.
The tester won't help you, Tina, you need to get the information from the router.
Quote from: Tacitus on Jan 15, 2010, 08:03:01
OK. You need a small portable radio with AM bands - not a DAB portable. Switch it to Medium Wave and set the tuning to around 60/63 kHz. Now all you should hear is white noise - some radio hams used to call it 'shash' - but you'll know it when you hear it. Key is to not be able to hear any radio station, but a steady background 'rushing' sound.
Now try moving the radio near an energy saving light bulb and the noise will increase dramatically. This is the noise you are looking for. Now if you move the radio round the house, you will pick up where the noise is that potentially will be picked up by you phone line and broadband kit. Follow the phone line and see whether there are any areas where there is a significant increase in noise, which the line might be picking up.
It's not an exact science and won't necessarily tell you where the noise is coming from, but it will let you know it's there. You can then take such action as you are able.
Ok. Thanks. I will try other things first though before doing that. :)
HTH :)
Quote from: Rik on Jan 15, 2010, 10:00:00
The tester won't help you, Tina, you need to get the information from the router.
Morning Rik,
oh yes, course. Will not having the router on initially for 10 days or so have stoped the router from syncing at the best speed?
No, the DLM is constantly monitoring the line, it will only have delayed the start of the training period, during which faults can't be reported to BT.
60/63kHz is well below the Long Wave band, never mind Medium Wave.
Extension wiring can cause major problems, especially if it's been done with flat cable (as in the cable used in phone to plug leads) or burglar alarm cable, rather than proper twisted pair phone cable or CAT5.
The "standard" test is to disconnect all extension wiring and test the router on the master socket located inside the main BT socket.
As others have said, you must use the stats provided by the router itself, and that the BRAS will not usually change upwards for 5 days after things have improved. (It might be possible for the ISP to request the profiling be reset, but I'm not sure on that point.)
Quote from: nowster on Jan 15, 2010, 14:29:28
60/63kHz is well below the Long Wave band, never mind Medium Wave.
My mistake it should be 600/630kHz - the markings on my old radio have almost gone and I wasn't thinking. I still prefer the old days of 208 metres etc ;D
;D
I may weigh in kilos, but I have to convert to stones to know how heavy I am, Tac.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 15, 2010, 16:46:37
I may weigh in kilos, but I have to convert to stones to know how heavy I am, Tac.
When I was working on highway design, I had to mentally convert metres into feet in order to visualise the width of the carriageway....
Old habits and all that. ;)
QuoteThe "standard" test is to disconnect all extension wiring and test the router on the master socket located inside the main BT socket.
That's what you need to do first!!, if the sync speed improves when plugged into the test socket then the problem is internal wiring and/or stuff thats plugged into it. If the sync speed doesn't improve then you need to look at the attenuation to see whether its similar to yours, if it is then its probably a line fault. If the attenuation is higher then ( as others have said ) it could be that the route taken from the exchange just makes the line a lot longer than yours and that its going to mean slower speeds I'm afraid.
Assuming the synch speed improves in the test socket, then we need to decide whether, as has been suggested, she has a filtered faceplate or not...
See this site for some good info on socket types http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm
If its not a filtered faceplate then all the things plugged in ( except the router ) need to be via filters, that includes answer m/c, fax and especially a SKY box!!!
You might want to check out more info on troubleshooting on the kitz site http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/troubleshooting.htm and about possible ring wire issues http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/lowSNR.htm
Hope that helps
Or even:
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1904.msg31528#msg31528
;)
Right,
today I have discovered the following things:-
I was wrong about being on the same exchange as my friend - she is on the Thurnby exchange in Leicester which is LLU and I am on the Billesdon Exchange in Leicester which is non-LLU. I mistakenly thought that because when I inputted her telephone number into IDNet she could only get the same non-LLU package as mine and because she lives close to me that she was on the same exchange as I am. I now realise of course that this is not the case and that the reason she would get the same non-LLU package as me with IDNet is not because her exchange is non-LLU but is because IDNet is not in her exchange.
Her line attenuation is: 56.6db/31.5, Noise Margin 10.9db/19.0db. Downstream 1,504Kbps Upstream 448Kbps.
The modem cable and one phone extenstion cable (with a phone attached) was going in to the little adpater that has a socket for the phone and a socket for the modem - there was not an ADSL filter on it, I have now fitted one. The BT socket is a twin one - there is nothing in the other socket, but I did test a phone in it and it is live.
The actual line from outside that feeds the internal BT sockets has some kind of twin splitter on it outside the house with a cable from one side of it feeding into the bedroom socket and a cable from the other side of it feeding into the hallway socket - when ringing in to the house a low-level consistent buzzing noise can be heard on both the bedroom phone and the hall phone. The phone in the hallway socket emits the buzzing, but it is not as loud as what can be heard on the bedroom phone. It isn't a crackle, the pitch does not go up and down, it is a constant low buzz, though some might describe it has a hum maybe.
Apparently, there was an issue with the phone line a few years before the house had broadband connected when the splitter was installed to feed the bedroom and hallway sockets and at that time my friend and her husband were charged for the fault to be rectified, though some time later, after they contested it, the charge was reimbursed when it was proven that the fault was not an internal wiring one.
I am thinking that this low buzzing noise indicates a noise problem that is affecting the broadband...? I remember something on here about running some kind of 'BT noise test' on the line? Should this be my next course of action or does the fact that it can be clearly heard on both the bedroom phone and the hallway phone clearly indicate that the fault is a noisy line?
One other thing, I did a ping.test and the line was reported as having an 'A' rating - is this at odds with the buzzing noise on the line?
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 15, 2010, 20:59:56
Right,
today I have discovered the following things:-
I was wrong about being on the same exchange as my friend - she is on the Thurnby exchange in Leicester which is LLU and I am on the Billesdon Exchange in Leicester which is non-LLU. I mistakenly thought that because when I inputted her telephone number into IDNet she could only get the same non-LLU package as mine and because she lives close to me that she was on the same exchange as I am. I now realise of course that this is not the case and that the reason she would get the same non-LLU package as me with IDNet is not because her exchange is non-LLU but is because IDNet is not in her exchange.
IDNet works off the BT backbone it is non LLU and for the home user will provide ADSLmax and WBC 21CN,both BT wholesale products depending on the local exchange capabilities.
The downstream attenuation of 56db puts her about 4km from the exchange with a potential maximum sync on adslmax of ~3500 The d/s noise margin of 11 shows that it has been raised from the default 6 to 12 to overcome instabilty/noise on the line. As the noise margin is raised the downstream sync will fall.
If you want to try further you've got to attach the modem into the test port on the master socket and see if there is any improvement in the stats
Quote from: Steve on Jan 15, 2010, 22:41:22
IDNet works off the BT backbone it is non LLU and for the home user will provide ADSLmax and WBC 21CN,both BT wholesale products depending on the local exchange capabilities.
Ok Steve, thanks for clearing that up for me, I didn't realise that.
A good read.
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,1904.msg31528.html#msg31528
Quote from: Steve on Jan 15, 2010, 22:41:22
If you want to try further you've got to attach the modem into the test port on the master socket and see if there is any improvement in the stats
OK, I will do that. Thanks. What about the noise that can be clearly heard on the phones plugged in to the two sockets (hallway and bedroom) when receiving an incoming call? Can that noise be down to the internal wiring then rather than a BT line fault?
It could be down to almost anything, Tina. I don't like the sound of that splitter, it would suggest that the other two sockets don't have a master, or there are two master sockets on the line. Either way, I think you need to fit filters to any socket in use, despite having the filtered faceplate.
I am not sure its a filtered faceplate it might just be a double socket.
A picture would certainly help.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 10:56:41
It could be down to almost anything, Tina. I don't like the sound of that splitter, it would suggest that the other two sockets don't have a master, or there are two master sockets on the line. Either way, I think you need to fit filters to any socket in use, despite having the filtered faceplate.
Hi Rik. My feeling is that the splitter feeding the two sockets that both have the noise on when receiving an incoming call is somehow responsible. My friend's husband said something about a cable with the splitter connected to it coming up through the ground outside the house from the main line then one piece of cable from one part of the splitter going up the wall in to the bedroom socket and the cable in the other part of the splitter feeding into the hallway socket. I couldn't take a look as it was dark and late when I found out about it, but I am there doing work on Monday so I will check it out.
I will have a good look at all the sockets to try and establish what type each is, I have though made sure anyway that there is an ADSL filter in every socket where there is either a phone plugged directly into it or where an extension lead is plugged in with a phone at the end of it.
The socket in the dining room, where the BT hub is connected is a twin telephone socket - both sockets are live. Only one of the sockets is in use, there was a little BT adapter plugged into the socket to allow for the telephone and hub connection - there wasn't an ADSL filter in there, but there is now.
I will use the new laptop, connected with the LAN cable to the hub to connect it directly to the test socket (I am assuming it is the hall socket). Luckily she has the new laptop I can use as otherwise I would have had to move the PC out into the hallway in order to reach the socket as the hub is currently connected to the PC in the dining room.
Once connected, I assume I then need to perform a BT speed test and check the modem stats - what will change (if anything) when connecting it to the master socket? Will I see an increased download speed from the consistent 0.97Mb? Will it be the IP profile that increases (currently 1000Kbps)? Is the DSL Connection Rate the bRAS or is it the IP Profile that is the bRAS? I Am trying to get my head around the whole subject and I am trying to learn from the available info (yours Rik) and Kitz whenever I get the chance, but I greatly appreciate all direct help here too as I am struggling with it all a bit (available time for studying all the information is my main constraint).
If I discover the socket in the bedroom is also a master socket - do I need to set up the laptop and hub from that socket as well? I always assumed that it was only possible to have one master socket when there is one phone line, but if BT fit a socket in another room is that also a master socket?
Hi Tina
The significant figures are the sync speed, noise margin and attenuation immediately after the router achieves sync. This tells us the 'raw' state of the line. Profiles were originally called bRAS profiles, but became IP profiles, they are one and the same thing. The profile is decided by two things, primarily the sync speed on the line, but also by the error count (which can be used by DLM to force a re-sync).
The only way to check that there is a single master socket it to have a look at the back of each faceplate. The master has a large capacitor and a lightning surge protector. There should be only one like that for the circuit.
If things improve, you will usually see a higher sync speed initially. Over time, that can translate to a reduced target noise margin and yet further speed. The BT test is only really necessary to check throughput against profile and to establish what the profile is. It's directly related to sync speed, but will not change immediately.
If you get a higher sync, post the figure and I'll tell you what the profile should rise to, though it can take five days to do so.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 12:48:25
Hi Tina
The significant figures are the sync speed, noise margin and attenuation immediately after the router achieves sync. This tells us the 'raw' state of the line. Profiles were originally called bRAS profiles, but became IP profiles, they are one and the same thing. The profile is decided by two things, primarily the sync speed on the line, but also by the error count (which can be used by DLM to force a re-sync).
The only way to check that there is a single master socket it to have a look at the back of each faceplate. The master has a large capacitor and a lightning surge protector. There should be only one like that for the circuit.
If things improve, you will usually see a higher sync speed initially. Over time, that can translate to a reduced target noise margin and yet further speed. The BT test is only really necessary to check throughput against profile and to establish what the profile is. It's directly related to sync speed, but will not change immediately.
If you get a higher sync, post the figure and I'll tell you what the profile should rise to, though it can take five days to do so.
Thanks for all this Rik. I am puzzled though at what point would I be able to conclude that there might actually be a line fault that can only be resolved by contacting BT and reporting it to them for them to fix? That will ultimately be the only solution that will eventually fix things if there is a line fault, but I just can't work out from everthing discussed how I categorically prove it is/isn't a line fault and when/if I should bounce it to BT?
When I had noise on my line that was crackling during a call as well as when listening to the dialling tone (my friend's is a low-level hum/buzz) I rang and reported it becuase I thought it was a fault and the automatic line test BT ran on the line found that it was a line fault and eventually an engineer came out. The problem affected the whole village and turned out to be waterlogged underground cabling and the BT engineer's testing equipment also picked up something to do with 'unbalanced lines/cables' so my problem was identified and eventually resolved by ringing BT in the first place. Should I have rung BT in the first place do you think, regarding the buzzing/humming on my friend's line before I do all this diagnosis? Tina.
It depends on the volume, Tina. All lines have some background noise, either a hum or a hiss.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 13:20:49
It depends on the volume, Tina. All lines have some background noise, either a hum or a hiss.
Ah, yes, I have just had a good listen to mine after ringing it and not speaking and I have been able to compare it to my friend's and it is exactly the same noise. It is slightly more noticeable on her hallway phone that it is on mine but on her bedroom phone, I would estimate the sound is probably twice as loud, though it is the same sound. I would hazard a guess that with the telephone upstairs it is to do with the nature of its installation travelling up the outside of the wall and because it is attached to that splitter. So I guess that the noise I can hear could be completely insignificant then when troubleshooting the under-par Internet download speed.
BTW - :thnks: for running with this with me and have a :karma: Tina
To prove a line noise problem (hum, crackle) you need to remove the half plate on the primary socket, plug in an unpowered phone and do a quiet line test as above. When the half plate is removed all other extensions should be disconnected with it because the wires should be attached to the half plate. If any other extention give a dial tone then you have an improper installation.
If there is no socket with a split plate then you need to go looking for the primary LJU2/1A by carefully removing each plate and looking for a capacitor. This will probably be the socket nearest the drop cable or ground feed. The incoming BT cable may be terminated at an external box and thence to the master socket.
The LJU2/1A or any master socket is BT property and you may not move or reinstall it. It ought to be the starting point for all the other extentions from at least pins 2, 3 and 5. The extension that seems to come from the external box could well be just a pass though of an external extension feed from these terminals. You need to be very careful accessing a LJU2/1A primary because, unlike the NTE5 split plate, the incoming feed is not automatically disconnected and you will be responsible for any damage you cause.
BT are responsible for the external junction box, if it carries the incoming feed, and for the master socket. BT will replace a faulty or damaged juntion box or primary socket. The rest is generally the responsibility of the occupier. Work is best carried out on old LJU2/1A primaries by BT or a professional installer for extention wiring, but this is expensive.
Quote from: davej99 on Jan 16, 2010, 15:07:51
To prove a line noise problem (hum, crackle) you need to remove the half plate on the primary socket, plug in an unpowered phone and do a quiet line test as above. When the half plate is removed all other extensions should be disconnected with it because the wires should be attached to the half plate. If any other extention give a dial tone then you have an improper installation.
If there is no socket with a split plate then you need to go looking for the primary LJU2/1A by carefully removing each plate and looking for a capacitor. This will probably be the socket nearest the drop cable or ground feed. The incoming BT cable may be terminated at an external box and thence to the master socket.
The LJU2/1A or any master socket is BT property and you may not move or reinstall it. It ought to be the starting point for all the other extentions from at least pins 2, 3 and 5. The extension that seems to come from the external box could well be just a pass though of an external extension feed from these terminals. You need to be very careful accessing a LJU2/1A primary because, unlike the NTE5 split plate, the incoming feed is not automatically disconnected and you will be responsible for any damage you cause.
BT are responsible for the external junction box, if it carries the incoming feed, and for the master socket. BT will replace a faulty or damaged juntion box or primary socket. The rest is generally the responsibility of the occupier. Work is best carried out on old LJU2/1A primaries by BT or a professional installer for extention wiring, but this is expensive.
Hi Dave, what do you mean by an 'unpowered phone'? I wouldn't have a clue how to move or reinstall a master socket or the LJU2/1A so I think they are safe from my interference :) I will look (and hope for) a split plate. Beyond that I might have to give up on it and my friend live with the slow download speed as I am nervous about unstitching sockets in case I damage any internal wiring, if I do decide to do it though, would it be obvious to me which one has the capacitor? I have looked at images of capacitors and they are quite varied in their structure.
Hi Tina
Dave is saying don't use a DECT phone, but one which plugs directly into the socket. A DECT phone has its own noises. Just look for a large component or two in the sockets, the normal sockets don't have any. :)
Quote from: Simon_idnet on Jan 15, 2010, 03:58:48
Hi Tina
Not necessarily, it depends on the route that her phone line takes to get to the exchange. For example, my house is about 100 yards from the exchange, as the crow flies, and yet my line is 1.5 miles long - it literally goes round the bypass and then comes back into town.
Simon
Thanks Simon - turns out she is on a completely different exchange :whistle:
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 16:12:59
Hi Tina
Dave is saying don't use a DECT phone, but one which plugs directly into the socket. A DECT phone has its own noises. Just look for a large component or two in the sockets, the normal sockets don't have any. :)
I see. I think they do have one plugged in the hallway socket - it connects to the socket rather than through a cradle. It is very old though and the curly cable that goes into the receiver apparently causes crackling on the phone when they are talking to anyone on it. I think it also has a built-in answering machine in it. They have recently bought a phone that also has a built-in answering machine in it, but this was causing a problem kicking in when they were on a call to someone so they have disabled it.
Before I do the testing in the master socket, is it worth unplugging everything, including the filters, attached to every socket and only leave in the filter and hub in its current BT socket, then run a BT Speed test and check the hub stats? Could I expect the stats or speed test to show whether what I have done has improved things or not, or would all phones and filters and extension leads have to remain unplugged for several days before any improvement, or not was shown in speed tests and hub stats?
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 16, 2010, 16:50:54
Before I do the testing in the master socket, is it worth unplugging everything, including the filters, attached to every socket and only leave in the filter and hub in its current BT socket, then run a BT Speed test and check the hub stats? Could I expect the stats or speed test to show whether what I have done has improved things or not, or would all phones and filters and extension leads have to remain unplugged for several days before any improvement, or not was shown in speed tests and hub stats?
You need to look at the router stats both immediately before and immediately after the move to the test socket. A BT test is unlikely to reveal anything as the profile won't change instantly.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 16:54:08
You need to look at the router stats both immediately before and immediately after the move to the test socket. A BT test is unlikely to reveal anything as the profile won't change instantly.
Hi Rik, yes I had assumed that I would need to do that, but would it show a difference in before and after results straight away?
Incidentally, I recommended IDNet to my friend, but her husband took a sales call from BT one day and signed them up for BT Broadband. I am in the process of setting up my own IT Training and Support services and I am thinking about becoming an IDNet partner - had this been the case in this instance and I had identified this problem, how far would IDNet support have been able to help me with this issue? I am assuming I would still need to do the master socket test?
Yes it will, Tina, those are the only figures which will give you a definitive answer.
I don't know much about the partner scheme, you'd better ask IDNet on that. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that you would be expected to provide the front line technical support, they would provide backup. Certainly, either way, the master socket (test socket where available) would have to be done to reduce the risk of a BT callout charge of £160.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 17:21:54
Yes it will, Tina, those are the only figures which will give you a definitive answer.
I don't know much about the partner scheme, you'd better ask IDNet on that. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that you would be expected to provide the front line technical support, they would provide backup. Certainly, either way, the master socket (test socket where available) would have to be done to reduce the risk of a BT callout charge of £160.
That's good news regarding the test results, thanks. :)
This is what IDNet states re: partnering:- unlimited free professional support for both you and your customers. Fast, reliable services with competitive reseller discounts make attractive packages that can not only compliment your existing products and services but also provide an easy additional revenue stream for you.
I would expect to do the frontline support myself, but it looks as if partnering with IDNet would certainly enhance the experience for me and of course, there is always this fabulous forum as well. :thumb: ;D
As I said, Tina, you need to talk to them to get the nitty gritty. I've never gone in for re-selling. :)
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 17:36:46
As I said, Tina, you need to talk to them to get the nitty gritty. I've never gone in for re-selling. :)
Yes Rik, I will. Maybe I can afford to start shopping at DR once my new business gets up running! I am now going to drag myself away from IDNet as I have so much other stuff I need to get on with. Tina.
I thought we were trying to deal with BT. ;)
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 17:44:33
I thought we were trying to deal with BT. ;)
Oh well, I am sure one is allowed to deviate occasionally :)
And BT are definitely a bunch of deviants! :evil:
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 17:50:05
And BT are definitely a bunch of deviants! :evil:
:hehe: I bet a few of them lurk on this site.
We've never caught one yet, but we do watch for them. :) I'd love to get a BT total care rep posting here.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 17:56:54
We've never caught one yet, but we do watch for them. :) I'd love to get a BT total care rep posting here.
LoL - I bet there's at least one lurking, probably having a good snigger at people like me trying to grasp what to them is dead simple stuff ;D
That's how we learn, Tina. I started by asking questions and when I reached the point of being able to answer them, I switched roles. :)
Quote from: Rik on Jan 16, 2010, 18:04:42
That's how we learn, Tina. I started by asking questions and when I reached the point of being able to answer them, I switched roles. :)
I totally agree with you! I hope to contribute to the forum as time goes on and my knowledge increases. Now, online to do my lottery and shopping then a bit of Final Fantasy on the Play Station! :)
;D
Priorities, eh? ;)
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 16, 2010, 16:09:45
Hi Dave, what do you mean by an 'unpowered phone'? I wouldn't have a clue how to move or reinstall a master socket or the LJU2/1A so I think they are safe from my interference :) I will look (and hope for) a split plate. Beyond that I might have to give up on it and my friend live with the slow download speed as I am nervous about unstitching sockets in case I damage any internal wiring, if I do decide to do it though, would it be obvious to me which one has the capacitor? I have looked at images of capacitors and they are quite varied in their structure.
Sorry Tina I am not explaining myself well. As Rik says an unpowered phone does not have a plug into the mains. It will be a phone with a cable just for the phone socket. You are right not to tamper with wiring on a phone wall plate that is not split, but you can safely remove the two screws and look inside. The capacitor you are looking for will be about 1/3 as long as an AAA battery. It is a good idea to test with everything removed if you do not have a split plate. All stand alone answering machines, faxes, sky boxes, cordless phones etc should be removed. If you have a split plate, test in the socket behind the removeable plate, and try several filters. But do check all other sockets are dead with an unpowered phone when the plate is removed. Good luck.
Quote from: davej99 on Jan 16, 2010, 20:01:25
Sorry Tina I am not explaining myself well. As Rik says an unpowered phone does not have a plug into the mains. It will be a phone with a cable just for the phone socket. You are right not to tamper with wiring on a phone wall plate that is not split, but you can safely remove the two screws and look inside. The capacitor you are looking for will be about 1/3 as long as an AAA battery. It is a good idea to test with everything removed if you do not have a split plate. All stand alone answering machines, faxes, sky boxes, cordless phones etc should be removed. If you have a split plate, test in the socket behind the removeable plate, and try several filters. But do check all other sockets are dead with an unpowered phone when the plate is removed. Good luck.
Ok Dave, thanks for all the info - I will let you all know how I get on, which should be Monday evening sometime :karma:
There's a picture of one of the split faceplates (the standard BT NTE5) and the test socket here. (http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate.htm#part2) Scroll down about halfway and you can see how they work. You can see the test socket on the bottom right hand side when the bottom half is removed. It will have wires attached to it so be careful when you pull it out.
Not sure if this is helpful but here it is anyway. :)
Quote from: Tacitus on Jan 16, 2010, 21:08:44
There's a picture of one of the split faceplates (the standard BT NTE5) and the test socket here. (http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate.htm#part2) Scroll down about halfway and you can see how they work. You can see the test socket on the bottom right hand side when the bottom half is removed. It will have wires attached to it so be careful when you pull it out.
Not sure if this is helpful but here it is anyway. :)
Hey Tacitus - this is super! ;D Thanks. I am going to savour it tomorrow and go through it in detail, but I have already had a quick scan through. I am sure it will help me to have the confidence to look behind it. :thumb: :karmic:
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 16, 2010, 21:01:40
Ok Dave, thanks for all the info - I will let you all know how I get on, which should be Monday evening sometime :karma:
Thx for Karma/
There are pics of the old style non-split faceplaces here (http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/uk_telephone.html) and the famous capacitors. One is primary and one secondary. Then the split plate already mentioned.
Quote from: davej99 on Jan 16, 2010, 22:57:40
Thx for Karma/
There are pics of the old style non-split faceplaces here (http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Wiring/UK_telephone/uk_telephone.html) and the famous capacitors. One is primary and one secondary. Then the split plate already mentioned.
Brilliant - thanks. I am finding it all quite fascinating, maybe I should have been a BT engineer... ;D
New career moved, Tina? ;)
Quote from: Rik on Jan 17, 2010, 09:53:57
New career moved, Tina? ;)
You could do worse! Take a look here. (http://phoneengineers.co.uk/index.html) A friend was quoted £100 plus £30 per extension for moving the main socket, a new drop wire (both very naughty since it's BTs property!) and, in his case, one extension. The chap who did it was ex-BT and apparently did a first class job - even to the extent of checking the polarity on the main socket. The external cabling was proper 6-core (4 core would have sufficed) external quality with polyethylene sheathing, unlike some cowboys who use black internal cabling and claim it to be external spec.
Given the prices BT charge for what in some cases is 20 minutes work, I imagine a lot of this goes on. The only reason my friend got someone in to do the work was the need for a new dropwire, otherwise it's well within the reach of anyone with a bit of common sense.
THIS THREAD & POST (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/3753007-gpo-faceplate-will-bt-update-foc.html?fpart=6#Post3763474) may be helpful to some dealing with an old primary socket. BT do not look at all good. See the thread from the top.
THIS GUIDE (http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm) shows how to do various things with house phone wiring to get better broadband performance, including fitting your own NTE5 filtered faceplate legally if there is no NTE5 at all. It's step by step DIY.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 17, 2010, 09:53:57
New career moved, Tina? ;)
Hmmm, think I will pass on that one Rik :)
Quote from: Tacitus on Jan 17, 2010, 10:26:41
You could do worse! Take a look here. (http://phoneengineers.co.uk/index.html) A friend was quoted £100 plus £30 per extension for moving the main socket, a new drop wire (both very naughty since it's BTs property!) and, in his case, one extension. The chap who did it was ex-BT and apparently did a first class job - even to the extent of checking the polarity on the main socket. The external cabling was proper 6-core (4 core would have sufficed) external quality with polyethylene sheathing, unlike some cowboys who use black internal cabling and claim it to be external spec.
Given the prices BT charge for what in some cases is 20 minutes work, I imagine a lot of this goes on. The only reason my friend got someone in to do the work was the need for a new dropwire, otherwise it's well within the reach of anyone with a bit of common sense.
Many of these big corporates are all the same, look at the energy companies and how they rip us off. They have us all over a barrel because we need them. >:(
Quote from: davej99 on Jan 17, 2010, 12:23:12
THIS THREAD & POST (http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/general/3753007-gpo-faceplate-will-bt-update-foc.html?fpart=6#Post3763474) may be helpful to some dealing with an old primary socket. BT do not look at all good. See the thread from the top.
THIS GUIDE (http://www.rob-r.co.uk/other/UKphonecatwiring.htm) shows how to do various things with house phone wiring to get better broadband performance, including fitting your own NTE5 filtered faceplate legally if there is no NTE5 at all. It's step by step DIY.
This whole post has certainly been incredibly useful to me and it will continue to be so as I will be keeping all the great and informative info in it for future reference. ;D Tina.
It has taken me some good time to get back to updagte this post, but here I am at last!
Here are the stats for before I tested from the master socket (behind split face plate):
Connection time 0 days, 00:58:46
Data Transmitted/Received (MB) 0.8 / 7.1
Broadband username bthomehub@btbroadband.com
ADSL line status
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 01:02:10
Downstream 1,504 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 11.5 dB / 18.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 56.8 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 2.5 dBm / 1.4 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 64 / 7
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 58 / 18
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 74 / 8
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 44 / 6
Password Not configured
TCP/IP settings
Broadband network IP address XX.XX.XX.XX
Default gateway 217.41.221.146
Primary DNS 194.74.65.68
Secondary DNS 194.72.9.34
Here are the stats from the master socket:
ADSL line status
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 00:13:12
Downstream 1,408 Kbps
Upstream 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 11.9 dB / 19.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 56.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 2.4 dBm / 1.4 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 1 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 2 / 5
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 1 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 2 / 1
I'm not quite sure how to analyse what the differences between them are? I don't know if the difference in the error stats between the two are significant? Any help with this would be appreciated.
I did a line noise test by calling the number and listening to the noise on the non-dect phone from the socket before removing the split face plate and then again after removing the split face plate and plugging the phone into the master socket. The noise was about twice as loud when tested in the master socket. Again, I don't know if this is significant or not?
I did remove all phones and extenstion leads from telephone sockets before doing all the tests, but unfortunately, I had forgotten to test that each extension was 'dead' after I removed the face plate from the master socket - does this make my testing completely redundant?
The external cabling into the house from the grey junction box is as follows: a very thin grey round cable (around a quarter of the width of mine, which is about the thickness of a laptop power cable) comes out of the junction box and along approx 12M of wall space before it enters the house through the wall into the downstairs cloak room. From that point inside the house, up to the master socket, the cable is approx 4M in length.
Cable comes out of the master socket in the hallway and after a few metres, links into another telephone wall socket in the hallway, cable comes out the other side of this non-master socket in the hallway and goes along the wall for around 5M before it goes through the wall into the dining room and feeds the double socket that the Hub is connected to.
Cable also goes out of the back of the non-master socket in the hallway into the lounge and travels around 7-8M before going into the wall socket in the lounge. Cable comes out the back of this socket and through the lounge wall to the outside of the house then travels around 8-9M along the wall before feeding through the wall into the bedroom wall socket.
The hub is plugged into one of the ports in the double socket in the dining room via a filter, an extension cable that is very long, with much of it in a heap, is also plugged into the filter and a phone is then plugged into the end of that long extension cable. One of the first things I did when trying to trouble-shoot was unplug the extension cable so that only the hub was plugged into the wall socket via the filter. It made no difference however, to the router stats
I plugged a telephone into the other socket in the double socket and it worked from that socket proving it was live, however, when dialling out from that phone in that socket, it made the hub (plugged into the other socket of the twin socket) lose connection and some of its lights flash from blue to orange - I don't know what that indicates about the double socket, if anything?
I did all this testing around a week and a half ago and at about the same time, I became aware that BT Open Reach were in the locale digging up a couple of sections of road and pavement, one section they dug up was just a few metres from the house and I noticed that they came and lifted up a BT cover right outside the front of the house and were putting something down it - I didn't have the chance to go and query what they were doing unfortunately.
I did a BT Speed test after I tested in the master socket and was surprised to find that the Max Achievealble speed had gone up from 200-1000kbps to 400-2000kbps and the IP profile had gone from 1000kbps to 1250Kbs, though the DSL connection rate had gone down from 1472kbps to 1408kbps. The download speed achieved during the speed test from the master socket was 1130kbps as compared to 923kbps when the test was run without using the master socket. Is it the case that a BT speed test from the master socket will always yield superior results to one performed from a non-master socket?
I am not sure what all of the above really tells me, but I ran a speedtest today (not from the master socket), the first since doing all the above testing and I only had time to use speedtest.net. The download speed has risen from what was a consistent 900+kbps to 1.3mbps. I will of course continue to monitor it using the BT speed test whenever possible. I still think the speed is pretty poor and that she should be getting between 3-4mbps, but I don't really know where to go with it from here....anyone any ideas? Tina. :)
Edit: IP address removed
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 28, 2010, 01:45:01
Connection time 0 days, 00:58:46
Here are the stats from the master socket:
Connection time 0 days, 00:13:12
The difference in connection time makes it hard to do any real comparison, Tina, but I'd say the change in sync speed is just down to the ambient noise at the time you connected, while the figures from the master socket suggest a lower error rate than from the normal configuration. To have any real validity, though, you need to be connected each way for about 24 hours.
I am puzzled by the IP address you show, though (now removed), it isn't an IDNet one, nor the one you're using here.
QuoteI did a line noise test by calling the number and listening to the noise on the non-dect phone from the socket before removing the split face plate and then again after removing the split face plate and plugging the phone into the master socket. The noise was about twice as loud when tested in the master socket. Again, I don't know if this is significant or not?
The master socket is the face plate, the test socket is the one you reveal behind it. It should, if anything, be quieter. I'm puzzled on that.
QuoteI did remove all phones and extenstion leads from telephone sockets before doing all the tests, but unfortunately, I had forgotten to test that each extension was 'dead' after I removed the face plate from the master socket - does this make my testing completely redundant?
No, but it leaves the chance of a wiring issue, so ideally you need to test that.
QuoteThe hub is plugged into one of the ports in the double socket in the dining room via a filter, an extension cable that is very long, with much of it in a heap, is also plugged into the filter and a phone is then plugged into the end of that long extension cable. One of the first things I did when trying to trouble-shoot was unplug the extension cable so that only the hub was plugged into the wall socket via the filter. It made no difference however, to the router stats.
I plugged a telephone into the other socket in the double socket and it worked from that socket proving it was live, however, when dialling out from that phone in that socket, it made the hub (plugged into the other socket of the twin socket) lose connection and some of its lights flash from blue to orange - I don't know what that indicates about the double socket, if anything?
But that same phone, plugged into the same filter as the router, is OK?
QuoteI did a BT Speed test after I tested in the master socket and was surprised to find that the Max Achievealble speed had gone up from 200-1000kbps to 400-2000kbps and the IP profile had gone from 1000kbps to 1250Kbs, though the DSL connection rate had gone down from 1472kbps to 1408kbps. The download speed achieved during the speed test from the master socket was 1130kbps as compared to 923kbps when the test was run without using the master socket. Is it the case that a BT speed test from the master socket will always yield superior results to one performed from a non-master socket?
Your profile has risen to match your sync speed, suggesting flapping. If the wiring is OK, and all other variables don't change, then the difference in throughput between the test socket and any other should be minimal. You need to repeat that test several times throughout the day to establish whether it was a one-off result.
QuoteI am not sure what all of the above really tells me, but I ran a speedtest today (not from the master socket), the first since doing all the above testing and I only had time to use speedtest.net. The download speed has risen from what was a consistent 900+kbps to 1.3mbps. I will of course continue to monitor it using the BT speed test whenever possible. I still think the speed is pretty poor and that she should be getting between 3-4mbps, but I don't really know where to go with it from here....anyone any ideas? Tina. :)
You need to establish that all other sockets are dead when you are using the test socket, then you need to run the router in the test socket for 24 hours, doing a number of speedtests across that period (ideally BT, but if not, then speedtest.net using the Maidenhead server). Repeat with the wiring in its normal state and let us have the results for both.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 28, 2010, 08:31:15
I am puzzled by the IP address you show, though (now removed), it isn't an IDNet one, nor the one you're using here.
Its her friend's BT broadband connection,Rik
This thread's been running too long. :red:
Quote from: Rik on Jan 28, 2010, 08:39:48
This thread's been running too long. :red:
Steve/Rik,
thanks for all your work in sticking with this and your comprehensive answers to my lengthy text Rik.
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But that same phone, plugged into the same filter as the router, is OK?
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Yes, the phone does work in the same filter as the router - I have had to put it back in there so it will be interesting to see if that makes the speed go back down below 1mb.
I don't think my friend and her husband would want all extenstions unplugged and the laptop and hub connected to the test socket in the hallway for 24 hours somehow or me hanging around doing numerous speed tests throughout that period (would be difficult for me to find the time to do it anyway). Why is it such a convoluted process to ascertain whether the problem is with the internal wiring or the external wiring? Surely most people don't do this level of troubleshooting to establish where the fault lies? I suppose many people would just call out a BT engineer to check it all out and then pay the charge if BT prove the problem isn't with the external wiring? Is it worth me trying to get BT to run a line fault test do you think? No wonder some people just put up with internet speed problems. Tina.
You can try, Tina, but BT are renowned for the best customer service. Ultimately, the 24 hour test is the only protection your friend has again a £160 minimum BT charge if an engineer is called out and finds no fault on BT's side of that test socket. One thing you might consider is fitting a filtered faceplate instead of that dual one. It will isolate all the extensions from the ADSL service, but would require the router to be close to the master socket.
Have we checked the ring wire can't recall?
I would have thought so, Steve, but like you, I can't remember...
We don't appear to. Tina, you need to check every socket and remove any wire connected to terminal 3. You only need wires on terminals 2 & 5, and they should be a pair, eg blue/white & white/blue.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 28, 2010, 18:01:54
You can try, Tina, but BT are renowned for the best customer service. Ultimately, the 24 hour test is the only protection your friend has again a £160 minimum BT charge if an engineer is called out and finds no fault on BT's side of that test socket. One thing you might consider is fitting a filtered faceplate instead of that dual one. It will isolate all the extensions from the ADSL service, but would require the router to be close to the master socket.
Filtered face plate will be a no-no then as it would mean them having a chunky desktop stuck in the (narrow) hall. :(
Forgive my obtuseness but why would running router in test socket over 24 hours prove anything? What would I be looking out for in the speed tests and what would/how would those tests prove or disprove BT responsibility? Not that I can do it anyway on this occasion, but I am curious in case I ever need to do it for myself. Tina.
Hi Tina
Snapshots of line conditions are just that. To get a real idea of what's happening, you need to run a program like Routerstats for 24 hours, thus charting the rise and fall of the noise margin and any resyncs that occur. In your friend's situation, it would pay to do two tests, one in the test socket and one in the normal socket. That would demonstrate what impact the internal wiring was having on the connection.
Did you see the bit about the ringwire, which we seem to have missed telling you about explicitly?
Quote from: Rik on Jan 28, 2010, 18:18:36
We don't appear to. Tina, you need to check every socket and remove any wire connected to terminal 3. You only need wires on terminals 2 & 5, and they should be a pair, eg blue/white & white/blue.
Does that include the master socket Rik/Steve and if so, are the wires you speak of in the upper part of the master socket? Could I do untold damage fiddling with these wires in the sockets? Would it be obvious which terminals are 2, 3 and 5? Is that something that would need to be done on a permanent basis, or is is something that is done and then put back after doing all the other tests?
They are numbered, most often the wire is orange/white, it's a permanent thing (the ring wire is a hangover from 'bell' phones), you should be able to lift out the wire with a small pair of pliers without any difficulty. The ring wire acts as an antenna for noise, so can really create havoc on a circuit.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 28, 2010, 18:45:26
Hi Tina
Snapshots of line conditions are just that. To get a real idea of what's happening, you need to run a program like Routerstats for 24 hours, thus charting the rise and fall of the noise margin and any resyncs that occur. In your friend's situation, it would pay to do two tests, one in the test socket and one in the normal socket. That would demonstrate what impact the internal wiring was having on the connection.
So I wouldn't have to sit around for several hours doing test after test then using the BT Hub stats? I would have a program running on the laptop monitoring it? Is the program Routerstats you mention expensive?
It's free. :)
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/moreinternet/files.htm
Quote from: Rik on Jan 28, 2010, 18:54:43
It's free. :)
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm
http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/moreinternet/files.htm
Thanks V. Much. ;D Interesting about the ring wire....Perhaps I should check that on my own master socket - my one and only socket in the whole house! It is rather old so it could well have the naughty wire lurking behind the socket. I think I will check it tomorrow in the day time so I can see it all more clearly. :thumb:
It won't have a ring wire if it's the only socket, Tina.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 28, 2010, 19:04:59
It won't have a ring wire if it's the only socket, Tina.
oh :whistle:
Worth a peep if you've not seen it.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm
Quote from: Steve on Jan 28, 2010, 22:37:29
Worth a peep if you've not seen it.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm
Hi Steve,
thanks for this - I have read it and now feel that I could quite confidently remove the ring wire from the master socket and any extension sockets, where applicable.
How would I know if my friend has a 'Fixed Rate line' or a 'Rate Adaptive' line? Does having a Fixed Rate line mean there is a cap on the download speed that can be achieved?
:karma: by the way. Tina.
Most ADSL is rate adaptive, Tina. Given all you've told us, she's on Max, which is one of the rate adaptive services.
Quote from: Rik on Jan 29, 2010, 18:29:06
Most ADSL is rate adaptive, Tina. Given all you've told us, she's on Max, which is one of the rate adaptive services.
OK Rick, thanks. I thought that must be the case with all that has been discussed in this post. :)
Thanks Tina .
Quote from: T_M_D on Jan 29, 2010, 18:32:42
OK Rik, thanks. I thought that must be the case with all that has been discussed in this post. :)