Is it reasonable of me to expect my very slow (about 2000kbps download) to remain there atleast as it has done for many months, and not now be told by BT via IDNET that the noise margin has been doubled to 20 to "keep the line stable".
Since they did it I often can't even access web pages at all (let alone the speed now being about 800kbps) but I'm just told it's the best it can do, even though I know it was better than that for months??
I'm the customer and I know it's worse now but it seems it's ok for BT to change things and refuse to deal with me directly. IDNET are also just saying ah never mind it must be the best the line can do.
Sorry for whinging but I find this unbelieveable and unacceptable. They've reduced what was a shoddy service to something not worth paying for and which constantly errors out on web pages, but won't correct it. :rant2:
Unfortunately, BT can get away with this as there is no obligation to provide any ADSL service at all. If you push too hard, they are likely to condemn the line and you will get no service from any BT-based ISP. Do you have an LLU option available at your exchange?
Incidentally, the highest official noise margin, afaik, is 15db. If you are seeing 20db immediately after a re-sync, that may have changed, but my guess is that your line is so noisy that the margin is increasing as the noise decreases from the level it was at at the time of the re-sync.
Thanks Rik. I have LLU where I live, I was with one before and will apparently have to go back. I thought they were bad until this. The line might not be classed as stable but I have used it at 2000/3000 kbps for a year. Now as I've said it is 800kbps and regularly can't pull up a page at all. It would disconnect now and then but that's better than what I've had since the SNR was put to 20db (according to my netgear). The thing is, from my point of view using it day to day, it's worse now than before the SNR was changed. So as a paying customer I should be able to tell them to put it back as it works better as it was for me.
There surely IS an obligation to provide ADSL once they have started doing so? I've had much better than this for nearly a year so how can they just reduce it to next to useless over night?
The problem as far as I can see is that BT are awful and should not be allowed to make sudden changes or cause downtime to a line without notifying the bill payer. They should either have competition at every level or be forced my government to have better customer service and standards. The least they could do is have a useful dialogue with me or the ISP. To be honest, I would be happier if IDNET had been more up front with me if BT are indeed messing them about too.
Sorry to disillusion you, but there is no obligation on BT whatsoever. If their systems deem your line unstable, either through multiple re-syncs or high error counts, they will use three techniques to stabilise it, (a) switch on interleaving (there are various depths, the deeper the interleaving, the higher your ping), (b) increase the target noise margin in steps of 3db from the initial target of 6db. Each step costs you 5-700k of sync speed. The official maximum target noise margin is 15db, (c) lower your profile (throughput), this is reactive to a line event and normally recovers if the line remains stable. If it doesn't, your profile can remain low indefinitely.
It's possible for an ISP to get interleaving turned off once. If it is switched back on automatically by BT's systems, they will rarely turn it off again. Similarly, in some circumstances (though few) an ISP can get the target margin manually reduced, but any instability (multiple re-syncs or high error count) will force it back up again. BT will not then consider any further manual intervention.
If you're lucky, and are willing to risk the bill, they will send an engineer out to test your line, but if he finds it's performing in spec, or the fault lays on your side of the master socket, then you are looking at a minimum of £160+VAT, probably £200+.
Unfortunately, BT's only obligation is to provide a voice line and a data service of 28.8k, so an ISP can't push them beyond that. Lines, in general, are degrading, partly due to lack of maintenance, partly due to increased levels of ADSL takeup, and greater cross-talk.
I thought you'd had quite lengthy discourse with Brian on the subject?
Shouldn't they address the fact that it was usable at higher speeds (as far as I am concerned) for many months and now isn't?
Brian has told me about the line stability and also that it's stable at the now doubled SNR. However, I'm the one paying for it and I know from use that it's worse now than it was before the SNR went up. I am not going to say here what I think about Brian's attitude to my problems.
There's no acknowledgement of what I'm telling them regarding pages just not appearing at all a lot of the time. The line isn't stable at the new lower speeds and higher SNR. Actually I don't know it might be "stable", but it's not usable for the most part. A few weeks ago, it stayed up for about 3 weeks at the better speeds and normal SNR so clearly it's possible.
My key issues with this are why has it gone up now and not months ago? Why did I have a usable (though slow) service for months and now haven't?
i know the feeling all to well tpk a couple of month back i went from sycing at 8mb to syncing at 3mb with rapid increase in my noise margin. But as rik stats they are only obligated to make the line work for voice (correct me if im wrong rik) so wont generally bother to fix a noise problem if it only affects ADSL signals.
luckly for me after a couple of months of patients i got my sync back.
your problem might be if you try to change providers is that if its the line to your house that is causing the problem then changing providers probably wont fix anything
Cheers Colin.
I don't quite understand how BT aren't obliged to provide ADSL if it's down their lines and presumably they get money from somewhere even if indirectly as a result of me paying for an internet service?
Is it worth getting a new phone line put in?
You can try, but if there is a spare 'pair' in to your house, BT may just use that
Quote from: tpk on Sep 01, 2009, 17:12:31
Shouldn't they address the fact that it was usable at higher speeds (as far as I am concerned) for many months and now isn't?
No, it's not a requirement for them, I'm afraid.
QuoteBrian has told me about the line stability and also that it's stable at the now doubled SNR. However, I'm the one paying for it and I know from use that it's worse now than it was before the SNR went up. I am not going to say here what I think about Brian's attitude to my problems.
Brian's giving you the facts, however unpalatable, he can't change BT's attitude I'm afraid.
QuoteThere's no acknowledgement of what I'm telling them regarding pages just not appearing at all a lot of the time. The line isn't stable at the new lower speeds and higher SNR. Actually I don't know it might be "stable", but it's not usable for the most part. A few weeks ago, it stayed up for about 3 weeks at the better speeds and normal SNR so clearly it's possible.
Have you checked using OpenDNS?
QuoteMy key issues with this are why has it gone up now and not months ago? Why did I have a usable (though slow) service for months and now haven't?
I woke up one morning to no service, pre-IDNet. Something had changed in my internal wiring and the line had gone out of tolerance. It required a paid BT visit to diagnose and fix.
Even if it was fie last week, it may now have sufficient degradation or crosstalk to cause the problems. My line used to sync at almost 5mb with a 6db noise margin but now I'm lucky to get 3.5mb on a 9db margin.
Rik, Brian isn't giving me the facts, the line isn't any more stable. For example I've just had no net for an hour. My issue there is that when you call support for a service you pay for you expect some sense of urgency, consistancy maybe and most of all, genuine concern. I've never had that. Also support pass me round like a hot potato. I've done nothing wrong except be annoyed with shoddy service but I get treat pretty cynically in my opinion. If I'd been told it straight (i.e. BT's attitude etc) from IDNET like I have been from you, I'd be less aggrieved.
I've tried OpenDNS in the past and will give it another go thanks.
What am I paying for and what can I expect? Nothing as far as I can see.
Lance, but shouldn't someone look at the sufficient degradation?
How can there possibly be no obligation on BT to provide ADSL? Surely they sell something to IDNET?
Unfortunately, BT aren't interested in the quality of their lines. You can have an engineer round, but you risk having to foot a £160+ bill if they find "no fault". That said, having no internet for an hour does not sound right, even on an unstable line. Was it the PPP that wouldn't connect or could you not sync?
OpenDNS won't do anything for stability if the problem is the line, by the way.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 01, 2009, 20:52:39
How can there possibly be no obligation on BT to provide ADSL? Surely they sell something to IDNET?
As I understand it, very basically, IDNet are receiving what's being sold to them by BT, so as as far as BT are concerned, job done. You are paying IDNet to provide a broadband service to your line at your exchange, which IDNet are doing. Again, job done. Where it falls down, is the bit between your exchange, and your house, and that's the bit BT don't take much of an interest in. :(
Depending on your router, there is a program (DMT) which can force sync at a lower noise margin.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 01, 2009, 20:52:39
Rik, Brian isn't giving me the facts, the line isn't any more stable. For example I've just had no net for an hour. My issue there is that when you call support for a service you pay for you expect some sense of urgency, consistancy maybe and most of all, genuine concern. I've never had that. Also support pass me round like a hot potato. I've done nothing wrong except be annoyed with shoddy service but I get treat pretty cynically in my opinion. If I'd been told it straight (i.e. BT's attitude etc) from IDNET like I have been from you, I'd be less aggrieved.
Your impression of support mirrors mine. What was once a good department has become disinterested, full of excuses and platitudes, with apparently little genuine willingness to deal with issues. It's a shame, especially as the attitude of some support staff is noticeably worse than others, with the result that it tarnishes the good work of those that do still care.
I hate having to call support nowadays, because when I do I know the instant I hear a particular voice that my call will be a waste of time and nothing will be achieved. Miriam continues to provide excellent service; it's a shame some of her colleagues so badly let her and IDNet down.
That's not my experience, I call support regularly on behalf of members and I know the lengths to which they go. However, I've always found that how you treat others gets reflected in how they respond to you.
The problem is that customers don't see those 'lengths'. So when there's also a lack of communication they get particularly upset.
A transparent support ticketing system would be better so that the customer can see what efforts are being made and the results. If any.
This would cut down on a lot of 'what's going on?' calls to support and avoids the 'we'll call you if there's a change' type response, especially if that call doesn't come even after the problem is fixed.
There's a lot more that I'd like to say but in my last few days I'm trying to be on my best behaviour. ;D
Hi,
I don't know how experienced you are or how much diagnostic work you've done so I will appologise in advance if I'm reaching you how to suck eggs...
If you're having trouble like this then it does sound like a problem with your line, the phone wiring in your house, your modem or some combination of the above (since that covers just about everything it's got to be one of them ;) )
Here are the questions I would be asking myself if I had this kind of problem:
- Which exchange are you on?
- How far is it to drive from your house to the exchange?
- When you make phone calls is your phone line noisy at all?
- Do you have any extensions or just the master socket?
- Is your modem plugged into your master socket or one of the others?
- Are your extensions wired with round, oval or flat cable?
- Do you have a filter plugged into every socket?
- Which filters do you have? (Brand? Where did you get them? How long have you had them?)
- Do you have an ADSLNation professional ADSL faceplate for your socket?
- Do you have any phone extension leads? If so, is the modem on one?
- Do you have one of the new NTE5 master sockets (where the bottom half of the front comes off)
- Have you tried taking the bottom off it and plugging your modem directly into the "test" socket behind? Did things get better?
- Do you have Sky?
- Is your Sky box plugged into the phone line?
- Can you borrow a different modem/router from someone or IDNet support and see if that is any different?
- Which Operating System are you using? (XP, Vista, 7, Mac, Linux?)
- If you're using Windows do you have up-to-date antivirus and antispyware programs? Have you run a degicated alti-malware package liek Malwarebytes to check you're not infected with something that is chewing up your internet speed?
Also it is important to remember that when you're doing tests you're interested in the "sync" speed as reported by the modem on its web interface and not "how well things work". The exchange will set a "profile" of how fast it thinks your line will go and this can take up to a week to improve once a fault is gone. Your experience won't instantly get better.
I'm happy to try to help if you need.
All the best,
Paul.
Quote from: Dopamine on Sep 02, 2009, 01:20:28
I hate having to call support nowadays, because when I do I know the instant I hear a particular voice that my call will be a waste of time and nothing will be achieved. Miriam continues to provide excellent service; it's a shame some of her colleagues so badly let her and IDNet down.
As a matter of fact, I called support this morning because IDNet are handling the install of a new line and broadband enabling it and I wanted to check progress, given the vagaries of BT. I spoke to one of Miriam's colleagues and he could not have been more helpful and friendly. He made some checks and suggested that if I was at all concerned to call back later this afternoon, but assured me that everything seem to be going according to plan and indeed, so it has in the interim since I called.
I have spoken to support a few times since I joined IDNet from Zen in June and have found them to always be friendly and helpful, prepared to go the extra mile, and not just another caller to be dealt with.
I would venture to suggest that your experience is not typical.
:iagree:
whenever I've spoken to them About my own line and member's lines they've delivered the service I expect.
Apologies for a few posts but I've quite a few replies to make.
Quote from: Simon on Sep 01, 2009, 22:14:44
As I understand it, very basically, IDNet are receiving what's being sold to them by BT, so as as far as BT are concerned, job done. You are paying IDNet to provide a broadband service to your line at your exchange, which IDNet are doing. Again, job done. Where it falls down, is the bit between your exchange, and your house, and that's the bit BT don't take much of an interest in. :(
Simon thanks I appreciate what you are saying. I would question what you said I'm paying IDNET for though. I believe I'm paying for a usable broadband service. As a customer I shouldn't need to know any more detail than that. I pay they provide. That basic thing is not happening and it's not being corrected. I agree with your conclusion though, that BT don't take much of an interest. That's key. They don't need to.
Quote from: Sebby on Sep 01, 2009, 21:18:00
Unfortunately, BT aren't interested in the quality of their lines. You can have an engineer round, but you risk having to foot a £160+ bill if they find "no fault". That said, having no internet for an hour does not sound right, even on an unstable line. Was it the PPP that wouldn't connect or could you not sync?
OpenDNS won't do anything for stability if the problem is the line, by the way.
Not sure about PPP or syncing but will try to find out. I'm trying opendns just in case.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 02, 2009, 08:54:15
That's not my experience, I call support regularly on behalf of members and I know the lengths to which they go. However, I've always found that how you treat others gets reflected in how they respond to you.
Rik, to be honest I take that as a suggestion from you that I don't treat support the way I want them to treat me. My response is that I certainly try to and definitely do to begin with. I make no apologies for getting annoyed and slightly less easy to work with as a result of the situation and how I was dealt with.
Quote from: lodge on Sep 02, 2009, 13:28:09
I would venture to suggest that your experience is not typical.
In my case, this is my other problem, I agree my experience is not typical. I think that is as a result of my problem not being so. I suspect IDNET can't do anything about it, and BT don't care. End result is annoyed customer and support who come across as not caring. There should be only one outcome here. Escalation. There should be a solution or at least a serious attempt to address the fact that my service is awful and wasn't quite so bad for months until a change was made. The reality is, they would rather just service the people who happen to be on a usable line and stuff the ones who aren't. Even that wouldn't be SO bad but this problem has developed some time after I was activated, I know my line can do better.
Thanks Paul.
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on Sep 02, 2009, 11:51:11
If you're having trouble like this then it does sound like a problem with your line, the phone wiring in your house, your modem or some combination of the above (since that covers just about everything it's got to be one of them ;) )
I've been using the test socket most of the time for many months as a result of going around in support circles. I've used various modems, cables and filters.
Does it matter which exchange I'm on? I can't change that I'd have thought. I gave up a long time ago of getting a decent speed based on my distance and attenuation. I would just like something I know I can get like 2000/3000kbps down as opposed to what I have 700 down/100 up (yes one hundred kbps upload!).
I don't think my line is noisy. BT came and said it was as clear as a bell..
I've got no extensions.
Yes I've got an ADSLNation faceplate.
I've got the new NTE5.
Yes I've got SKY but it's not plugged into the phone.
I have and have tested various PC's and OS.
Quote from: Dopamine on Sep 02, 2009, 01:20:28
I hate having to call support nowadays, because when I do I know the instant I hear a particular voice that my call will be a waste of time and nothing will be achieved. Miriam continues to provide excellent service; it's a shame some of her colleagues so badly let her and IDNet down.
I agree entirely with this. I thought I might get somewhere at one point but next day I'm being dealt with by someone else and it's back to square zero.
Like you, I live a long way from the exchange. Fortunately, I have a half-decent line and maybe even better after today for reasons I won't bore you with.
However, a near neighbour of mine had a more or less parallel experience to your own, where her line just deteriorated and she could not connect at all because the line would not synch. Eventually after all the standard tests had been performed, at her ISP's instigation, BT were called out to her house and several visits were made by specialist broadband engineers. Finally they decided that BT could not guarantee to provide a continuous working ADSL service, even though the neighbours on both sides were each achieving 2MB with their respective lines.
BT notified the ISP accordingly, and broadband service was withdrawn and she is now on dial up. That was 2 years ago and despite a few attempts through various ISPs, including the - on some forums - lately vaunted AAISP, BT's position remains unchanged.
You can see from this that the ISP is powerless to do anything about such a decision by BT and it has to be accepted as one of the disadvantages of living so far from the exchange.
I regret to say that I think your own situation may be headed the same way as my neighbour. :(
Quote from: lodge on Sep 02, 2009, 15:58:08
I regret to say that I think your own situation may be headed the same way as my neighbour. :(
Lodge. Thanks for the info. To be frank, I wouldn't care if my situation was going that way. I'm more concerned with the principals of this. It's just plain wrong and should not be happening. BT are a joke and ISP's should not deal with them in the way they do if this is what happens. The idea that they'd turn off ADSL on a line when the neighbours works is disgraceful. They can do what they like, I still will say what I think about it. I was getting ripped off by BT paying 300 hundred pound phone bills back when I had to dial direct to other users to play Doom many years ago. I despise the effect they have on net access, the way they rip us off, and that more isn't done to improve the experience for users who have issues especially after having had a usable connection in the past.
I don't live a long way from the exchange.
What are your line stats, downstream attenuation and noise margin?
Rik, it changes but right now (with a modem which always seems to report it totally wrong).
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 775 kbps 108 kbps
Line Attenuation 31.0 db 25.5 db
Noise Margin 15.15 db 8.0 db
I suspect the attenuation is actually about 45 with my more dependable router, this one is just a test.
You should be syncing at 6-8Mb with that, even allowing a couple of Mb for the high target NM, then 4Mb minimum. That says to me that your line is very noisy. If you do a quiet line test by dialling 17070 and selecting option 2, do you hear any cracking? If you do, report that as a voice fault to your telephone provider and don't mention ADSL. If not, then it's likely to be RF noise, do you have a battery-powered MW radio you could test with? If you do, de-tune it so you only have white noise and then follow the path of the phone line from where it enters the building to your router. Does the noise increase at any time?
This won't be exactly word for word accurate - I don't record my calls - but it's close. The suggestion that poor support is a result only of a bad attitude by the customer is wrong, pompous and extremely stupid. The first rule of behaviour in any professional customer focused organisation is that you understand that every customer is different and that some have a manner that might be "difficult". It should make no difference to the way an issue is dealt with. Unlike some here, who appear to be in almost daily contact with support and for whom IDNet is some sort of social hub, which consequently colours their view of the reality of IDNet's performance, others just want a reliable service and no need to ever contact support:
"Hello, I'm experiencing slow speed today and sluggish browsing. Are you aware of any problems?"
"No, everything's OK"
"Oh. Well my speed is slow and my pings and high."
"You'll need to email us details, ping tests and a speed test. Have you heard of the BT speed tester?"
"Yes, but I can tell you most of those details now"
"You'll have to email them. We deal with speed issues by email. We'll need to contact BT."
I don't remember exactly what sentence came next, but I think I asked again whether we couldn't discuss the issue by phone, and was told no.
"Thank you. That's not very helpful."
End of call.
Probably no more than 30 seconds. Not even any enquiry from support about who I might be, my number, whether I'm on 8mb or 24mb. Just a "get rid of the complaining customer as soon as possible" attitude.
I'm sure if I'd persevered I could have extended the call and maybe got the disinterested support operative to take a few more details, but I know from experience that it would have achieved nothing. My attitude was not at fault, because the call was not long enough for any "attitude" to develop. Support were disinterested. End of story.
Strange, I've just got off the phone from support, as there appears to be a MUX fault at Milton Keynes again (PPP down, sync not affected). I was on the line for at least 15 minutes while they tested, before going off to talk to the specialist BT team. YMMV, but I've always found them helpful. It is easier to deal with speed issues by email, and there's not much they can tell you off the cuff, they need to look at your results, the network traffic at the time and any BT issues that may be affecting things.
Rik, Yeah it should be much faster but I do think the router I've plugged in today to test is wrong. I'd be happy with what I had for months, about 2500kbps so I can do basic broadband net stuff. I thought that was bad initially but accepted that it wasn't getting any better. This is why what's happened has irked me even more so. It's not my intention to come on here and attack support. I don't think I did until I was challenged on it. They haven't been particularly bad (well nothing unexpected), just frustratingly ineffective and not very encouraging. I considered posting originally in the rant area but I guess I am still hoping (stupidly) something might be done.
Nearly all my support has been by email. I've only called a few times to help diagnosing problems right when they happened.
How about the quiet line test?
I've never been able to notice much on it. I don't know if it would be obvious. I'll try again as I haven't done one recently. <<snip pointless BT rant>>
Sorry I forgot to reply to the idea of finding rf interference. Sounds well worth checking out. However, my master socket is right where the line comes into the house.
It's still worth following the line to the router in case of internal interference.
these are more more usual stats (since the service got worse than bad)
Connection Speed 715 kbps 987 kbps
Line Attenuation 47.0 db 26.3 db
Noise Margin 20.9 db 7.2 db
Is that the same router?
No it's my regular v4 netgear. I think it's reporting the stats right as your 2-wire wasnt much different.
There's clearly a line fault in that case. With attenuation of 47dB, you should be looking to sync at around 5.5Mb. Okay, so your target SNRM is high due to instability, but even so, you're sync is going to be much too low for the attenuation.
It's been like this for weeks now. It's not just slow, it often just doesn't work. Nothing worthwhile is in my opinion being done about it either.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 03, 2009, 00:25:51
It's been like this for weeks now. It's not just slow, it often just doesn't work. Nothing worthwhile is in my opinion being done about it either.
BT is like a mountain and like a mountain you cannot move it to get past you need to go through it, any ISP and I mean ANY can only push BT so much, they are slow, they will say you have ADSL its within minimum required guildlines as has been said, IDNET, O2, Sky, Zen can only bang their heads against this wall so much, it takes time to get them to see a fault, that simple, its not fun its not pleasant and I feel for you situation but its not IDNEt that provide Broadband as such its BT IDNet only facilitate it, its a slow process and that is simply that. Have you got by any change any p2p going on in the background right now? Just thought I'd ask. IDnet need test results again and again because BT demand them, no ISP unless providing LLU can do much more than swim though treacle in this situation, and no offence, but thats how you have to play it until some bright spark at BT goes " Yawn oh maybe there is a fault we
could have a look" thats as good as it gets these days sadly. Just keep trying, but if its cable degradation you have no hope, if its your wiring you can do something about it, use cat 5 use a filtered face plate, eliminate all you can and run as many tests as possible and it will get though.....eventually, things just take time these days, in fact they always did tbh, its just the ISP's told porkys that they were fixing it, IDNet tends to say how it is, and that's not always how we like to hear it.
What Gary says is exactly right. BT won't accept a fault based on what IDNet and you can see, and clearly identify as a fault. First, IDNet have to persuade level one support to at least look at the case, then they have to persuade them to pass it to a fault-finding team. It takes time and persistence, but it's the only way, sadly. Of course, if you're feeling particularly frustrated as I was yesterday, when the MK node fell over again, you can email BT's CEO. I have to say he was more interested in the fact that I knew the terminology than the problem, but if enough people contact him, it might just filter down in time.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 02, 2009, 15:48:46
Thanks Paul.
I've been using the test socket most of the time for many months as a result of going around in support circles. I've used various modems, cables and filters.
You're welcome. It does sound like you've got most of the bases covered.
The next thing I would try is to switch off everything in the house (fridges, freezers, heating, TV...) so that your PC and modem are the only things turned on next time it gets bad. If that suddenly cures it then you know some piece of equipment in your house is faulty and is emitting noise. At least that can be identified and fixed. Do you have another PC or a laptop you could try? I've seen a power supply in a PC go noisy and wipe out ADSL once before. If you can turn your whole PC off and do the test with the modem being the only thing plugged into the mains in the house and a laptop running on battery then you'll be pretty sure it's nothing in your house.
If it is interference it does seem to be something near your house that someone is coming home and switching on.
Quote
Does it matter which exchange I'm on? I can't change that I'd have thought. I gave up a long time ago of getting a decent speed based on my distance and attenuation. I would just like something I know I can get like 2000/3000kbps down as opposed to what I have 700 down/100 up (yes one hundred kbps upload!).
I just wanted to see what services were available.
Quote
I don't think my line is noisy. BT came and said it was as clear as a bell..
There is one other option that would hopefully fix it if you have money to spend on a fix: Have a second phone line put in and the ADSL put on that. You can have the old line taken out afterwards but at least it makes sure they don't use the same cable pair back to the exchange as the first line is still in. I don't know if it's possible to transfer the phone number to the new line after pulling the old one out. That will hopefully make them replace the drop cable from the pole to your house too as I believe older drop cables don't have 2 lines in them and they will need to put in one that does. There is no guarantee you'll get a better pair than the one you have there is a reasonable chance as it did work.
Cheers,
Paul.
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on Sep 03, 2009, 10:19:09
There is one other option that would hopefully fix it if you have money to spend on a fix: Have a second phone line put in and the ADSL put on that. You can have the old line taken out afterwards but at least it makes sure they don't use the same cable pair back to the exchange as the first line is still in. I don't know if it's possible to transfer the phone number to the new line after pulling the old one out.
It is, Paul, and if you have IDNet put the line in, it's cheaper than doing it through BT directly.
Gary, there's slow and there's no movement at all. I don't believe this is ever going to be addressed at this rate and all IDNET have really done is ask me to do obvious tests again and again and comment about the fact that the circuit is indeed fairly rubbish. I've had issues for months and I feel that each event is dealt with like the first, so there is no suitable escalation. I don't get the impression IDNET are even asking BT to fix it? If they are pursuing it with BT then I think that should've been communicated to me better. Either way, it's a disgrace. I'm paying for a service, what I'm getting is not worth the money, is faulty and the level of support I'm getting is not good enough, for whatever reason. This is the be all end all of it. I'm not saying anything can be done, but it certainly won't ever change if people accept it. I think support should talk to me the way everyone on this thread is doing so. Honest and to the point. It's very annoying to be given a line. If BT are hampering IDNET's efforts to give me what I've paid for, then they should tell me that specifically. Then I wouldn't be here saying how bad I think they are.
A new line sounds interesting. If IDNET do it am I tied to them? The way things are going I might go back to LLU so I don't want to commit to any particular ISP. Is the line just from the nearest post to my house? If so that is very short.
Paul thanks again, I'll try turning everything off, worth a go. Would my mains electrical supply cause interference? The BT line comes in about a metre away from what looks like a very old supply board.
New lines appear to be subject to a 12-month minimum contract, though it's not absolutely clear from the website, so best to check. However, the ADSL side on the line would be subject to the normal 30-day contract.
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on Sep 03, 2009, 10:19:09
I just wanted to see what services were available.
Ah sorry, I'm on the YORK exchange. I can get LLU but not sure which to try if I ended up moving. Already been with BE, they are looking like they actually weren't that bad compared to this. Not that stable but a bit faster.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 03, 2009, 11:03:17
Paul thanks again, I'll try turning everything off, worth a go. Would my mains electrical supply cause interference? The BT line comes in about a metre away from what looks like a very old supply board.
It is possible for interference to come in on the mains so potentially yes. It would also tie in with appearance of the problem when people come home and start turning stuff on. I would be more concerned by the line running close and parallel to electricity cables anywhere. If I was installing I probably wouldn't put them that close.
This could be an interference issue if somebody has introduced a new piece of equipment in the area or something has gone faulty but that isn't a certainty. Do you get on well with your neighbours? Could you talk to them and find out what they are syncing at and how well their broadband is going?
Cheers,
Paul.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 03, 2009, 11:03:17
.... I think support should talk to me the way everyone on this thread is doing so. Honest and to the point. ......
The old adage, 'be careful what you wish for' comes to mind.... :)
Quote from: Tacitus on Sep 03, 2009, 11:38:23
The old adage, 'be careful what you wish for' comes to mind.... :)
I mean it. Obviously I'm a customer so should be treat in that way but if they can't do anything because BT are ignoring them, but if they are indeed trying to get something done, then say so. It would be much better. All I'm getting is "yeah it's bad" and "send us some pings" after many months of problems.
The problem is probably in the 'last mile'. Unfortunately, wherever you go, BT Openreach own and maintain that bit of wire. :(
Rik, IDNET should be telling me that. I really don't appreciate the run around.
Paul, my neighbours don't even have broadband :-) Not the immediate ones anyway. Then the guy who would, two houses away is on the front street so I think he has cable. I don't know that the problem is at certain peak times.
Hi,
http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/MYYO
The LLU providers:
Would I... AOL: probably not, BE/O2: probably would, Pipex/Tiscali: no way, TalkTalk: very unlikely, Sky: Would probably give that a go as it's free.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 02, 2009, 17:55:51
Connection Speed 715 kbps 987 kbps
York is WBC enabled and that upstream rate is too high for Max. Rik, is this a WBC issue rather than what it looks like?
Cheers,
Paul.
I don't know, Paul.
Paul, I was put on WBC when I signed up for IDNET.
I used to be with BE, it was flaky but as I say, better than what I have right now.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 03, 2009, 11:40:14
All I'm getting is "yeah it's bad" and "send us some pings" after many months of problems.
Did you carry out the telnet test which was requested?
tpk,
What is the make and model of the modem, what software version is in it and when is the last time you updated the modem software please?
This may be a WBC problem and not a line fault per se. There seem to have been a number of cases where the exchange engineers haven't received adequate training and have botched WBC installs or configurations. WBC is very new and was only installed in York on 21/03/09. When was your original install date? I'm wondering if this could be a case of newbie engineer syndrome.
Thanks,
Paul.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 03, 2009, 12:01:12
Did you carry out the telnet test which was requested?
Yes Rik. I've provided plenty of pings and telnets over the months. If I'm having a problem at that moment they time out, if I'm not, they work.
So you're seeing packet loss?
Have you eliminated the possibility of any browser issues by trying alternatives or, if using Firefox, disabling all addons.
Paul,
I'm using a netgear v4 which I'm fairly sure is up to date but will check again. I've tried other modems.
I was activated in June, which makes me realise when I'm describing my long term problems, they actually begun when I was on LLU from last October onwards. However, it's never been as bad as it has been these last few weeks.
In answer to the second question Rik, absolutely, I've got 2 desktops and a laptop and have tried different browsers and OS. It's the ADSL not my systems as it's not just one PC. I only need to look at the router stats and the sudden doubling in SNR to tell that.
Re: Packet Loss, I either can ping and telnet or I can't. I try a web page and it fails completely, or works.
Also, my modem is taking much longer to sync than it used to.
It's a case of eliminating all the possibilities. From what you say, your line has been degrading since LLU days and has got worse. That's one of the most difficult problems for anyone to get fixed. As I've mentioned before, BT have no obligation to deliver ADSL at all, let alone at a given speed. Their attitude is that a working service is if their engineer can connect and load the BT test site. If he can, there's no fault and they will raise the £160+VAT charge. In that respect, it can be cheaper to have a second line put in, specified as being for ADSL. With a simultaneous provide, you get an ADSL engineer doing the job, which can help tremendously. I had this done recently and, for the same line attenuation and noise margin, I gained 500k on Max, 1M on WBC.
WBC does seem to have a longer handshaking routine than Max, btw.
I really don't understand that BT have no obligation to provide ADSL. Surely that's what IDNET are buying from them. I've been mis-sold ADSL if no one is obliged to give it to me for the price I pay. It's wasting my time and money. Not to mention causing lots of undue stress.
I feel it's only a most difficult problem to solve because the system doesn't oblige my ISP and BT (I don't care which as a customer!) to fix a poor line. I resent needing to know the technicalities. Take away the word oblige and even "care at all or try to genuinely help after the initial support questions/process" would be nice. The support process is to make sure it's not something on the customer's end, then .. erm.. just keep annoying them by asking the same stuff again and again and not transparently tell them the situation with BT and/or get BT to come and look.
You have ADSL, it's just not as fast as you'd like it to be. BT do not, and I can't emphasise this enough, have any obligation to provide the service, they can condemn your line at any time and refuse to provide further ADSL. Their only obligation is that it works for voice and a 28.8k dial-up modem. Sorry, but much as none of us like it, those are the facts. :(
I disagree entirely. I don't have ADSL. I have broken ADSL. I'm not complaining only about the speed. It's unusable for times each day. It is a faulty service. It's not my fault if it doesn't have a problem right at the moment they check. If they look at the history of the service and watched it, they'd know.
I'm talking about quality of service for which I pay.
I can say no more. If you are certain your line is to blame, ask IDNet to get a BT engineer out to you, accepting that you will face a charge of £160+VAT if no fault is found.
Do you think I'm wrong Rik?
I will not accept that there will be a charge as all I can reasonably be expected to do is try to rule out my own equipment and wiring to the best of my knowledge.
I've already had an engineer here and it was a waste of time. He only did the most basic checks and it was for voice. Why would I accept a charge from what is well known to be a bad, dishonest service provider? (BT) I might agree on the basis that I've checked my own side of things, but I wouldn't pay as I'm not at fault. Shouldn't IDNET pay for it? I pay them to give me usable ADSL.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 03, 2009, 13:30:45
Do you think I'm wrong Rik?
I will not accept that there will be a charge as all I can reasonably be expected to do is try to rule out my own equipment and wiring to the best of my knowledge.
I think you don't grasp the reality of a BT-based ADSL service, which is a 'best effort' product. That allows BT to set the levels as low as they want them, and ISPs can do little about it. I am aware of at least one person who had their line condemned after many years of service, because the speed had deteriorated and they tried to get BT to fix it. Unless the Govt or Ofcom set realistic performance targets, the situation will not improve.
It's no accident that there have been capacity problems on WBC, for example, which are now being addressed as BT Retail are about to enter the WBC market. The ISPs who have introduced WBC already have been used as guinea pigs by BT, and have lost customers as a result of poor performance. However, BT still determines what is acceptable, so there is no comeback.
The best we can do is bombard the BT CEO wih complaints, make a fuss in the media, or get our MPs involved. If we want real change, then the effective monopoly which BT have must be broken.
So no, I don't think you're wrong to want a better service, but I do think you have to understand how the system works with BT.
Fair points. I think I do grasp the reality, I just don't like it. I'd give up except I am still trying to get the quality of my line addressed but I suppose I might have to just forget it. As far as I'm am concerned as a customer I shouldn't need to understand what's going on with BT and IDNET. The basic facts which matter for me are I pay for something and it is not up to standard.
"Best effort" certainly not where BT are concerned so I assume you mean from IDNET. I don't even know that I agree with that otherwise they'd be getting an engineer out on my behalf already.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 03, 2009, 13:34:57
I've already had an engineer here and it was a waste of time. He only did the most basic checks and it was for voice. Why would I accept a charge from what is well known to be a bad, dishonest service provider? (BT) I might agree on the basis that I've checked my own side of things, but I wouldn't pay as I'm not at fault. Shouldn't IDNET pay for it? I pay them to give me usable ADSL.
As I've just said, it doesn't work that way. You could try migrating to Andrews & Arnold, who 'guarantee' to fix line problems, but the last member to do that found that they couldn't achieve any more than IDNet had. LLU is your best bet in such a situation, but remember that the 'last mile' is still over the Openreach copper pair, so still subject to the same noise and instability issues. That's why I say BT has n effective monopoly.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 03, 2009, 13:40:25
The basic facts which matter for me are I pay for something and it is not up to standard.
I hear you. Living in Milton Keynes, I suffer the blight of aluminium cables, so my speeds are, relatively, dire. However, I know that my only option is to move if I want to change things. :(
I've been reading elsewhere on the forum about A&A having difficulties with BT, so I'd imagine as you say it wouldn't be much better.
I don't think so. To be honest, BT are screwing ISPs and their customers and no-one can do a thing about it because BT write, and vary, the rules. Have a look on the A&A blog about the way BT changed all engineering visits to SFI ones, without any consultation. It's why I saw we need to pester our MPs if anything is going to be done. :(
Regarding having to move to get better service. Even if you checked the broadband before hand, you'd still have no guarantee it would continue to work acceptably, so that's not a reliable option even if you were open to the idea. My ADSL was flaky but usable until a few weeks ago.
I agree with the rest :(
Oh, I accept that. What I'm saying is that I know that I'll get nothing better while I live here. OTOH, checking the vendor's router stats would be on my list in viewing any new property. ;D
Quote from: tpk on Sep 03, 2009, 15:41:17
Even if you checked the broadband before hand, you'd still have no guarantee it would continue to work acceptably.....
Couldn't agree more. As an exercise in applied masochism I looked through my BT Speed test logs from late 2006 onwards. They show a gradually deteriorating line that once would regularly connect at around 2800/2900 with a 2500 profile, to one which currently connects anywhere between 1800/2150 with a profile of 1500.
What do I do? Talk politely to my ISP - Bangalore are always polite even if they do nothing more than read the script. Scream at BT to no avail? All my neighbours are in more or less the same boat and, if our lines go really pear shaped we run the risk of our broadband being cut off altogether. Go to another, non-BT supplier, in our case either Orange or TalkTalk? Not much hope there.
Effectively we're screwed until BT decide to renew cables in the area, something which is unlikely to happen anytime soon. Given their need to keep the pension fund afloat, another disaster largely of their own making, it's quite possible it won't be in my lifetime.
As Rik says the only option is to keep up the pressure on MPs, local councillors and anyone else you feel may be able to influence matters. A great many ISPs are, like iDNet, in the unenviable position of being flak catchers for BT, who are the real villains.
Hi Tacitus
It's quite likely that your neighbours are the cause of the problem: by creating cross-talk. When phone lines are enabled for high-speed DSL they each emit a small amount of electrical noise. The phone cables from you and your neighbours converge into a 50-core carrier cable in the duct at the end of your street/neighbourhood and are trunked back to the Exchange. Each line is creating interference for each other line and therefore dragging down the speed of each other.
This is most noticeable in high tower blocks and satellite housing estates but its effect is becoming more and more noticeable everywhere. Unfortunately it is just a side-effect of the prevalence of DSL and is subject to the laws of Physics.
Simon
Quote from: Simon_idnet on Sep 03, 2009, 17:18:33
is subject to the laws of Physics.
Simon
It's time these laws were repealed, broken or bent...whichever is the easiest. :evil: ;D
Quote from: Simon_idnet on Sep 03, 2009, 17:18:33
It's quite likely that your neighbours are the cause of the problem: by creating cross-talk......
I think it may well be one factor, although the main cause is most likely old cables through the village and bad joints. What is really galling is that at 2.25 miles from the exchange, it should be so much better. A 4500 profile should be perfectly feasible.
With the emphasis on should, unfortunately, Tac. :(
Just a quick update on my situation:
I've been told that BT and IDNET have gone over "every inch" of my service and can't replicate the problem. I'm told my service is perfectly stable. I believe they could replicate the problem if they monitored it long enough, or just believed me and the info I've been sending for weeks. Not to mention the fact that the line resyncs at truly abysmal rates quite often.
When I checked last night I could only access web pages every other 3 or 4 attempts if lucky. My upstream had dropped to 82 kbps. That's eighty two :-\
I don't see how this sudden degradation can be considered acceptable and not justify an engineer visit. As far as I'm concerned, they sell an "as is" service and if it gets worse it's just too bad for you. They and BT will not fix any problems such as bad lines or sudden problems between the exchange and your house. Also, if your problem is intermittent e.g. a few times a day, forget it.. if they can find the service working at all, it's not considered a problem.
In my opinion, it's a short sighted, pathetic shoddy rip off unless you are lucky enough to be on a good line which doesn't ever have a problem.
If they can't replicate it, they can't fix it. I'm sure IDNet will arrange an engineer visit for you if you're prepared to pay the £160+VAT fee if he fails to find a fault.
How can they replicate me not being able to access web pages? Is my word not enough given that I've been reporting problems for some time and sent the tests I've been asked for. When I'm asked for ping and telnet info, I send it if it works, and tell them that I couldn't other times. What more can I do? What sort of problems would IDNET and/or BT ever fix?
I don't believe they've ever tried hard enough to replicate it over a good length of time given that it is intermittent.
They haven't offered to send an engineer. Also it was suggested I go back to the more stable Max service. I thought that wasn't possible?
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:09:17
How can they replicate me not being able to access web pages? Is my word not enough given that I've been reporting problems for some time and sent the tests I've been asked for. When I'm asked for ping and telnet info, I send it if it works, and tell them that I couldn't other times. What more can I do? What sort of problems would IDNET and/or BT ever fix?
If there was a DNS issue more people would have it, you are not just a single user with your own dns lookup facility. So if they test pages and it loads, or we do and they work, its down to other issues maybe, like your router/browser/Av software/firewall, or having a virus, the list goes on.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 09, 2009, 11:06:20
I'm sure IDNet will arrange an engineer visit for you if you're prepared to pay the £160+VAT fee if he fails to find a fault.
They are sure to not find a problem as they clearly aren't interested in fixing it (and it's intermittent). How would I know they had done thorough checks before deciding to charge me? If BT have already gone over every inch as I've been told, surely there is no need for an engineer?
Quote from: Gary on Sep 09, 2009, 11:14:16
If there was a DNS issue more people would have it, you are not just a single user with your own dns lookup facility. So if they test pages and it loads, or we do and they work, its down to other issues maybe, like your router/browser/Av software/firewall, or having a virus, the list goes on.
But I've already gone through all the possibilities of router/browser/software etc. I've tried different of everything in my house.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:09:17
How can they replicate me not being able to access web pages? Is my word not enough given that I've been reporting problems for some time and sent the tests I've been asked for. When I'm asked for ping and telnet info, I send it if it works, and tell them that I couldn't other times. What more can I do? What sort of problems would IDNET and/or BT ever fix?
I don't believe they've ever tried hard enough to replicate it over a good length of time given that it is intermittent.
They haven't offered to send an engineer. Also it was suggested I go back to the more stable Max service. I thought that wasn't possible?
BT have been monitoring your line remotely for some time, at IDNet's insistence. BT say there is no fault, it's performing within spec. The only other thing IDNet can do is get an engineer out to you
if you are prepared to accept the charge. I understand that they offered to move you back to Max by using a migration, which would enable the physical change which BT don't normally allow. However, that would mean you would get the lower bandwidth allowance.
It's not enough to accept what you say. BT will raise a charge if they can't find a fault, so IDNet have to pass that on. If you're absolutely sure you have a fault and are prepared to accept the risk of the charge then tell IDNet and they will get an engineer out to you.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 09, 2009, 11:06:20
If they can't replicate it, they can't fix it.
I don't even think this has to be the case every time. It is possible to fix something without replicating. The fact is, the line is poor and you pay for a service which generally only gets worse as they aren't interested in addressing any degradation issues which appear.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:18:12
They are sure to not find a problem as they clearly aren't interested in fixing it (and it's intermittent). How would I know they had done thorough checks before deciding to charge me? If BT have already gone over every inch as I've been told, surely there is no need for an engineer?
If that's the way you feel, surely you should migrate? I work closely with support, and I trust what they tell me. I know, fairly well, how the system works, and I know how hard they push issues with BT. Therefore, I have stayed put through the WBC teething troubles, because I know the issues are with BT and affecting all ISPs. However, if you have no faith in IDNet, maybe you should try an alternative ISP?
Quote from: Rik on Sep 09, 2009, 11:21:04
BT have been monitoring your line remotely for some time, at IDNet's insistence. BT say there is no fault, it's performing within spec. The only other thing IDNet can do is get an engineer out to you if you are prepared to accept the charge. I understand that they offered to move you back to Max by using a migration, which would enable the physical change which BT don't normally allow. However, that would mean you would get the lower bandwidth allowance.
It's not enough to accept what you say. BT will raise a charge if they can't find a fault, so IDNet have to pass that on. If you're absolutely sure you have a fault and are prepared to accept the risk of the charge then tell IDNet and they will get an engineer out to you.
Rik, I appreciate your replies but I don't always agree obviously.
If BT have been monitoring my line I would quite like to have been told that, it would be good communication from support. It is not in spec I'm fairly sure given the upstream speed I just mentioned. Why do you always give me more useful information about my case than support do?
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:22:44
I don't even think this has to be the case every time. It is possible to fix something without replicating. The fact is, the line is poor and you pay for a service which generally only gets worse as they aren't interested in addressing any degradation issues which appear.
If that's the case, you are really in a hole, because whatever BT-based ISP you move to will have the same problems, even LLU runs over that same 'last mile'. You seem to be expecting BT to replace your line, they won't do it unless they can see something wrong with it.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 09, 2009, 11:24:30
If that's the way you feel, surely you should migrate? I work closely with support, and I trust what they tell me. I know, fairly well, how the system works, and I know how hard they push issues with BT. Therefore, I have stayed put through the WBC teething troubles, because I know the issues are with BT and affecting all ISPs. However, if you have no faith in IDNet, maybe you should try an alternative ISP?
My lack of faith as expressed above is with BT. I was talking about the engineer visit, which is presumably BT?
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:19:18
But I've already gone through all the possibilities of router/browser/software etc. I've tried different of everything in my house.
The net is not perfect, some pages do not load, local exchange congestion etc can cause issues as can sites servers ther are a miriad of reasons, just because a page loads fine today does not mean it will tomorrow, the net is in a state of permanent flux. What do you use for you security? some software does cause issues, the latest Kaspersky 2010 has some with page loading, it could be your software and you do not realise it, do you use P2P? That can invite issues if you are not careful as well.
But as Rik said if you are sure ll is fine your end get BT to check things locally at your house, if its not your wiring/equipment and are 100% sure as you seem to be, then go ahead and get the visit booked. But remember if you have overlooked something it will cost you.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:25:20
If BT have been monitoring my line I would quite like to have been told that, it would be good communication from support. It is not in spec I'm fairly sure given the upstream speed I just mentioned. Why do you always give me more useful information about my case than support do?
I'm not party to what you have, or have not, been told, so can't really comment. I just ask for information about the status of the problem.
Given that it appears that you have no trust in IDNet or BT, it seems to me that LLU might be your only option.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:26:37
My lack of faith as expressed above is with BT. I was talking about the engineer visit, which is presumably BT?
It is. :(
Quote from: Simon on Sep 09, 2009, 11:28:38
Given that it appears that you have no trust in IDNet or BT, it seems to me that LLU might be your only option.
Even that relies on Openreach, of course. :(
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:26:37
My lack of faith as expressed above is with BT. I was talking about the engineer visit, which is presumably BT?
IDNet do not have engineers to vist you, all visits will be BT its their system not IDnets. Like a Supermarket selling branded goods, they just sell the product, they do not make it or own it.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 09, 2009, 11:29:12
Even that relies on Openreach, of course. :(
Very true Rik, its all down to BT's copper or aluminium in the end :(
Quote from: Rik on Sep 09, 2009, 11:26:20
If that's the case, you are really in a hole, because whatever BT-based ISP you move to will have the same problems, even LLU runs over that same 'last mile'. You seem to be expecting BT to replace your line, they won't do it unless they can see something wrong with it.
Yes I am in a hole. They don't want to find anything wrong with it. They've not been to look. They don't care. They being BT mostly. Their idea of something wrong is total loss of service. If it works at all they don't want to know. If it suddenly gets a lot worse, they aren't interested. I believe it is wrong that I should have to get an engineer out with the "threat" of being charged. How would I know they had genuinely checked their equipment and service to my house? What recourse would I have if they said I had to pay, given that I know I've checked every possible wire and hardware which belongs to me to the best of my ability?
Quote from: Gary on Sep 09, 2009, 11:31:08
Very true Rik, its all down to BT's copper or aluminium in the end :(
Roll on FTTC. :fingers:
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 11:31:36
to me to the best of my ability?
That's the key phrase, of course. Have you run a BT speed test lately? It now gives acceptable speed ranges for your connection. That might help your case. (Though, as Gary says, AV and other software can and do affect results - ultimately, a BT engineer will make a decision based on the results he gets when plugged into the test socket.)
Quote from: Simon on Sep 09, 2009, 11:28:38
Given that it appears that you have no trust in IDNet or BT, it seems to me that LLU might be your only option.
I don't honestly think I have any good option. Broadband in the UK is a disgrace unless you happen to be on a good line which never has any faults. It's down to one monopoly.
It is, and all you can do is pester BT's CEO (generally a waste of time, I've tried), pester your MP or get your local media involved.
I try to keep my software simple, less is more often, I now run Windows firewall behind a SPI router with Nod32 V4 Prevx3 and windows blunder running in the background and AdMuncher to get rid of banners and adverts which speeds up page loading, its all very light, Prevx is effective as its in the cloud behavioural detection http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2346862,00.asp So I know my system is as light as it can be. But all AV solutions will have some slowdown especially with HTTP scanning. In the end you have two choices, take the chance or stay as you are, and as far as a recourse if BT find its not them you pretty much have to pay the £160 its hard to argue yourself out of that fee.
Quote from: Rik on Sep 09, 2009, 11:31:47
Roll on FTTC. :fingers:
Is that some kind of new deodorant? :whistle: :out:
:rofl: :karmic:
:ithank:
Quote from: Sebby on Sep 09, 2009, 11:42:32
Is that some kind of new deodorant? :whistle: :out:
:rofl:
;D
As a last resort you could try having a new line installed by iDNet. I think their charge is around £100 which is less than an engineer visit. You could possibly do it with a cease and then a sim provide on the new line, which means the installation would be done by a broadband engineer.
Not sure exactly how this would work in practice - you would need to talk to iDNet for that. Also, there's no guarantee it would result in higher speeds, but it might be worth a try if you are really desperate.
Thanks Tacitus, I'll consider it but I'm not sure I want to be tied in for more than a month.
Quote from: tpk on Sep 09, 2009, 15:17:26
Thanks Tacitus, I'll consider it but I'm not sure I want to be tied in for more than a month.
AFAIK iDNet's phone service is on a one month contract the same as their broadband. I'm pretty sure that also applies if you have a new line installed, although you'd need to ring sales to check. Obviously you'd need to check the call costs on the various iDNet packages against those of your current provider, to see whether the numbers stack up, but it might prove a viable option for you.
Just to add that you would also have to pay the broadband activation fee on a new line - £46. :)
tpk,
I'm more or less in the same situation as you. I've been at this house for about a year now and my sync speed started at around 1000k. I called IDnet and they were very helpful and arranged for BT openreach to visit. They came out, tidied up the mess of wiring outside my house and lessened the rate of errors I was receiving. Then the speed went up to about 5000 which I was most impressed with. Over time, this dropped to about 4000 which was a bit disappointing but understandable.
The biggest mistake I made was moving to ADSL2+. Since I've done this, my line went up to about 6000 which got me rather excited, then I watched it slip steadily only to settle at 2400. I've spoken to IDnet on several occasions and however frustrating the lack of interest that they relay from BT, they have never been anything but professional and courteous.
It's quite true that BT do not make any ADSL data guarantees - they've (most likely deliberately) not updated their T&C's for years because of just how aware they are that the archaic PSTN network was never built for data and evidently is suffering from lack of maintenance. I think the inevitable 'internet tax' is just adding salt to this wound as the only people who will benefit will be those in an area where BT feel compelled to implement FTTC... ie, places where they have competition.
So far, IDnet have the most competent support department I've dealt with. I can appreciate how difficult it is for them to have to relay cr*p responses from BT and can also see how it can easily be confused as IDnet being unhelpful. My rule of thumb is if there's any chance it's BTs fault - it generally is... You could do a lot worse than being with IDnet, have you ever called Tiscali / Plusnet / NTL or Virgin media support??
I think you've summed up the situation pretty well there!