I appear to be getting a low percentage throughput for the past few days. On GW5 if that makes any difference. Ideas welcome ! I would expect to be getting between 70-90% and used to be around 80-84%
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4640 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 4000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2151 kbps = 46%
July 21st Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4640 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 4000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1211 kbps = 26%
A little while ago Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4576 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3022 kbps = 66%
Pass those results to support, Mist, they can investigate for you.
The last one isn't too bad, which suggests possible exchange congestion to me, but you'd be better off talking to IDNet, as there have been problems recently.
Edit: Like Rik said. :)
Okay Thank you, will copy/paste it over to support. It is getting rather annoying as not time of day related as such, which is why I discounted the evening/sports etc slowdowns !!
I'm still getting poor speeds during the day (gw5). Have always got superb speeds during the day and manageable speeds after 5pm. This afternoon a visit to YouTube gave me serious buffering and was unable to view the clip in comfort. Trying some speed tests this afternoon the needle was unable to move, just twitch. :dunno: As I have said before, there is definitely something not right here. :(
Yet we know that the GW5 realm is not the issue any longer, Q, as the central you connect to is decided on a round-robin basis, it's no longer fixed. All we can say is talk to support, because there's nothing useful you can do locally, eg wiring etc. Run BT speed tests when things are bad and let them have the results.
Rik
Take your point. As you well know it is easier to get into Fort Knox than get a reading from the BT tester :(
Attached is my speed taken a few moments ago. I am used to high speeds between 6.5 & 7Mb but these are diabolical. :(
(http://www.mybroadbandspeed.co.uk/results/04400136.png) (http://www.mybroadbandspeed.co.uk)
Well I have just done a btspeedtester and am frantically 'guggling' as need to run some command stuff for James by eeerrrrrmmm booting in safe mode, now not being technically minded this could get rather interesting on my rotten Vista system....
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4608 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2812 kbps = 61%
It looks so similar to the issues others are finding, Q, but those BT tests are vital to pursue it. Try with IE if you normally use Firefox.
Quote from: mist on Jul 24, 2009, 19:09:26
Well I have just done a btspeedtester and am frantically 'guggling' as need to run some command stuff for James by eeerrrrrmmm booting in safe mode, now not being technically minded this could get rather interesting on my rotten Vista system....
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4608 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2812 kbps = 61%
TBH, given the time of day, that looks like classic exchange congestion. I'd imagine James wants you to boot into safe mode with networking support, then run the speedtest, and possibly a ping, from there?
Just tried BT test via IE, absolutely no joy. Attached is another speed tester result to prove my point.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/524541675.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Trouble is, Q, BT will only take their own tester seriously, just another way to stonewall, imo.
Quote from: mist on Jul 24, 2009, 19:09:26
Well I have just done a btspeedtester and am frantically 'guggling' as need to run some command stuff for James by eeerrrrrmmm booting in safe mode, now not being technically minded this could get rather interesting on my rotten Vista system....
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4608 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2812 kbps = 61%
Your throughput isn't 61%, it's 80% of your profile. The IP profile, not the connection rate, is the limiting factor, unless of course you are synched lower than your IP profile. It's fairly rare to see much more than 90% of your profile at this time of day, so you're not far off optimum.
Good point, Dopamine, I missed that.
Quote from: Dopamine on Jul 24, 2009, 19:19:47
Your throughput isn't 61%, it's 80% of your profile. The IP profile, not the connection rate, is the limiting factor, unless of course you are synched lower than your IP profile. It's fairly rare to see much more than 90% of your profile at this time of day, so you're not far off optimum.
ooops yes wrong number in calculator, it is a problem in that the throughput is swinging around , gets very laggy and slow then picks up and away I go again, <grin> like those dratted intermittent faults on phone lines.
A 'battery error' showed on IDnets testing a couple of weeks ago, possible culprit my RJ11 which was changed and things improved all round so I have great faith in getting this sorted out.
Oh disaster , just been running routerstats and that is showing a problem now as well, have set upto 'capture' and will post as soon as I have some :(
What does this mean please ???? How do I elevate it ?
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6001]
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
C:\Users\Mist>netstat -b
The requested operation requires elevation.
You need to run it as an administrator in Vista. Right click on the command prompt icon, then select run as administrator, now re run the command
Quote from: Glenn on Jul 24, 2009, 20:08:43
You need to run it as an administrator in Vista. Right click on the command prompt icon, then select run as administrator, now re run the command
Thank you
Yet further disaster today, sent screen shots to support as whilst out this morning my Noise margin has suddenly gone from the default 6 to 9 and that has never happened before and have lost over a meg in speed so most unhappy...routerstatslite shows no reason for it to suddenly change !!!!
It can be due to the error count, rather than loss of sync, so you may not see a reason for it.
Plus a 3db increase shouldn't cost a meg, so you may have had interleaving depth increased too.
Good point.
Quote from: Rik on Jul 26, 2009, 10:37:07
Plus a 3db increase shouldn't cost a meg, so you may have had interleaving depth increased too.
Well I do not understand why my noise margin shouls have been increased in such a fashion nor interleaving increased if that is so .
I have already sent screenshots of yesterdays events to CS showing a nice steady 5db noise margin with the sudden alteration for no apparent reason.
Numerous BTspeedtests which I always copy/paste in a folder for my own records over the years have never shown the need for a 9db margin plus I have records of a profile of 4db which can as others do a drop to 3.5 meg if an unforseen event occurs and a screenshot of the BTwholesale site showing I have a 4 meg line.
To say I am incandescant is an understatement.
and the reason for my meticulous record keeping is that I paid BT £150.00 to have the main socket correctly moved and placed next to the router plus pc with a new type socket/faceplate after various problems including squirrels chewing through the overhead cable. The BT engineer who did all the work also tested with his equipment and said it is a 4meg line.
I paste below two btspeedtest s the first the type I usually get the second one carried out just a few moments ago.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4672 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 4000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3726 kbps
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 3840 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2778 kbps
Hope this upload works. Screenshot of the change
[attachment deleted by admin]
The profile is correct for the sync speed, the throughput is correct for the profile. What's happened to your attenuation and noise margin atm?
The screen shot suggests a re-sync triggered by error count, with an adjusted margin. Do you have any idea of what your errors are like?
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3840 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 56.0 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 9.1 db 17.0 db
Att. is just the same as always 56db summer 55db winter...
No idea on errors as have re-booted a couple of times,
What could cause high errors ?
Noise on the line caused by crosstalk or electrical interference. I've had exactly that same 3db jump on a new line, so can vouch that it does happen.
okay, so elimination already done 17070 line appears clear BUT intermittently have a sound of sea on the shore (follow that if you can) no hissing etc..BT say no line fault.
No change in anything electrical whatsoever in the house, ie no new equipment etc.
New ADSLnation filter on the only phone socket in use.
What is the failure rate on the BT fitted sockets as I seem to recall reading that they can go wrong, mine is 2 years old.
Mine is 22 years old. :) There's not really a lot to go wrong, anything can, but I don't think it's a common issue. The noise doesn't have to be in the house, it could be coming from a neighbour (anyone had Sky put in recently) or some development along the route of the cable. The quiet line test is no help in this kind of situation, unfortunately, you're trying to find noise in the MW band.
I wouldn't suspect a non-filtered socket, but maybe a filter. Long flat-cable phone extensions also pick up all-spectrum noise.
The rising and falling hissing during Quiet Line Test is a symptom I once had on a much shorter line, and this was noise in all spectrums. It got worse to include scratching and popping. No one in BT could test or hear it until one side of the loop actually broke off in the exchange. Equipment in the exchanges have tie-pairs to connect lines and various devices, but I had a months long argument in which it became clear that BT's automatic tests don't reach everything there. Also, the voice support staff often can't hear the faults you can hear.
So this kind of intermittent is foisted onto the customer to prove, at the risk of multiple call-out charges, only refunded after proof.
The trick is to get the most efficient call-out process, so I defer to others on this particular organisational skill.
Richard
Inssider shows no new Sky anywhere. Plus I am rather rural and the cable follows a route with no developments etc.
Just hoping CS can sort it out tomorrow, a little while ago Brian said their was a 'battery error' on his tests which then seemed to clear after I replaced the ADSL cable at his suggestion which apparently can be causative (wear and tear) but he did say that could also be something else, it was just an initial elimination test which appeared to have cleared the fault. I just hope this isn't going to cost me for another BT engineer visit.
Quote from: rireed3 on Jul 26, 2009, 16:43:43
The trick is to get the most efficient call-out process, so I defer to others on this particular organisational skill.
The only one I know, Richard, is to report that you can sometimes hear other peoples' conversations. This usually results in an E-side pair swap, but my not improve things, of course.
Quote from: mist on Jul 26, 2009, 16:44:54
Just hoping CS can sort it out tomorrow, a little while ago Brian said their was a 'battery error' on his tests which then seemed to clear after I replaced the ADSL cable at his suggestion which apparently can be causative (wear and tear) but he did say that could also be something else, it was just an initial elimination test which appeared to have cleared the fault. I just hope this isn't going to cost me for another BT engineer visit.
They should be able to see if you've been getting a lot of errors.
I've had one or 2 errors in the 13 days :-\
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3,660,359
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 158,496
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 140,697
Okay, Thank you, will await tomorrow and hope they can get my noise margin down again and a decent synch.
Just another thought, could any software errors cause this type of problem ?
Quote from: Glenn on Jul 26, 2009, 16:50:58
I've had one or 2 errors in the 13 days :-\
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 3,660,359
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 158,496
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 140,697
Where would I find those please on my Netgear DG834N ?
I don't know myself as I'm using a Speedtouch at the moment. You could look in the maintenance section, but I'm sure a Netgear user will be along shortly to help.
(http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1904.0;attach=4999;image)
Quote from: mist on Jul 26, 2009, 16:53:58
Okay, Thank you, will await tomorrow and hope they can get my noise margin down again and a decent synch.
It depends on why it was increased (assuming that my guess is correct). Getting margins down again can be difficult, BT tend to resist unless the line it absolutely free of errors.
QuoteJust another thought, could any software errors cause this type of problem ?
None that I can think of.
Quote from: mist on Jul 26, 2009, 16:55:13
Where would I find those please on my Netgear DG834N ?
I don't know for an N, and Kitz doesn't have anything either. :(
Its similar to the DG834G v4 and the GT,enable debug and then the telnet command is # adslctl info --stats
Thanks, Steve. :thumb:
Just checked it works ;D
adslctl info --stats
adslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 448 Kbps, Downstream rate = 8128 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: G.DMT
Channel: Fast
Trellis: ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 11.9 27.0
Attn(dB): 22.0 13.5
Pwr(dBm): 19.8 12.3
Max(Kbps): 10720 1232
Rate (Kbps): 8128 448
G.dmt framing
K: 255(0) 15
R: 0 0
S: 1 1
D: 1 1
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 1 1
B: 255 15
M: 1 1
T: 1 1
R: 0 0
S: 1.0000 1.0000
L: 2048 128
D: 1 1
Counters
SF: 27532408 27532689
SFErr: 137 0
RS: 0 0
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
HEC: 90 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 382513883 0
Data Cells: 90049909 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 124 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 12 0
AS: 468055
INP: 0.00 0.00
PER: 1.75 1.75
delay: 0.25 0.25
OR: 32.00 32.00
Bitswap: 0 0
Total time = 1 days 10 hours 1 min 18 sec
SF = 27532408
CRC = 137
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 124
Latest 1 day time = 10 hours 1 min 18 sec
SF = 2122230
CRC = 7
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 7
Latest 15 minutes time = 1 min 18 sec
SF = 4602
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52923
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
SF = 5082319
CRC = 13
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 12
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52982
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52923
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52923
CRC = 1
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 1
Showtime Drop Reason: 0
Last Retrain Reason: 0
#
#
:thumb: :thumb:
Nice clean line, Steve.
The DG834N with latest firmware in my opinion works very well. I think the DGN2000 uses a similar chipset
All I need is the nice clean line. ;D
mist
I do believe that you were pointed in the direction of IDNet by myself via the DSL Zone forum. I am so sorry you are having these problems with IDNet :blush:
I sincerely hope that your problems can be sorted soon and again, my apologies for putting you in this position :(
Good luck :fingers:
The DG834N is based on Broadcom BCM6358 chipset, whilst the DGN2000 uses the Broadcom BCM6348 (the processor is a tad slower in terms of Mhz).
Quote from: quandam on Jul 26, 2009, 17:37:25
mist
I do believe that you were pointed in the direction of IDNet by myself via the DSL Zone forum. I am so sorry you are having these problems with IDNet :blush:
I sincerely hope that your problems can be sorted soon and again, my apologies for putting you in this position :(
Good luck :fingers:
No need to apologise Q, hopefully this will all soon be sorted out, will update tomorrow
Many of us are in the position of having recommended IDNet to others. No one can see what's round the corner, so I don't think we should feel guilty if there are problems, which hopefully, IDNet will get sorted very soon.
Besides, 9.9999 times out of 10 it's BT's fault. :evil:
This isn't a problem as such though, and is purely down to the line between the user and the exchange. No matter what BT based ISP is being used, the same thing would have happened.
As it happens I've had just under 15 million FECs and 34,000 CRC errors in just of 12 hours uptime. And that's with the margin at 9db!
Quote from: stevethegas on Jul 26, 2009, 17:20:38
Its similar to the DG834G v4 and the GT,enable debug and then the telnet command is # adslctl info --stats
How do you enable debug and where do you enter the telnet command as I have never used either.
I have tried opening a command window and typing debug where I then get a - appear and I then enter the telnet command and all I get is an error.
Colin
Well throughput for me tonight is appalling, and I cannot imagine at 23:01 its that busy on a Sunday night at my exchange >:(
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 8128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 7150 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2806 kbps
Use the following in your browser of choice,
192.168.0.1/setup.cgi?todo=debug
You can now telnet in through a cmd window
If you're using Windows: Start, run, cmd, telnet 192.168.0.1
I'm assuming you're using the default IP address
alternatively use the excellent routerstats which will give you all the info you want.
Quote from: Lance on Jul 26, 2009, 22:51:34No matter what BT based ISP is being used, the same thing would have happened.
Or even LLU operator... they all use the same piece of copper (or aluminium if you're really unlucky).
QuoteAs it happens I've had just under 15 million FECs and 34,000 CRC errors in just of 12 hours uptime. And that's with the margin at 9db!
Sheesh, I thought mine were bad... 60,000,000 and 120,000 in about 3 weeks!
FEC errors are nothing to worry about as they are corrected. It's CRC and HEC errors that are the ones to (potentially) worry about as they indicate uncorrected errors, and this can impact throughput.
Think I followed the instructions some of you so kindly posted, hope they may help solve the puzzle of that dratted 1 meg loss.
BusyBox v1.00 (2008.12.10-11:52+0000) Built-in shell (ash)
Enter 'help' for a list of built-in commands.
# adslctl info --stats
adslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: INTR, Upstream rate = 448 Kbps, Downstream rate = 3840 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: G.DMT
Channel: Interleave
Trellis: ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 9.3 17.0
Attn(dB): 56.0 31.5
Pwr(dBm): 19.4 12.1
Max(Kbps): 4384 972
Rate (Kbps): 3840 448
G.dmt framing
K: 121(0) 15
R: 16 16
S: 1 8
D: 32 4
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 1 1
B: 121 15
M: 1 8
T: 1 1
R: 16 16
S: 1.1311 9.0000
L: 976 128
D: 32 4
Counters
SF: 3367129 3367147
SFErr: 34 0
RS: 228964802 28619755
RSCorr: 97650688 6
RSUnCorr: 429 0
HEC: 30 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 518410812 0
Data Cells: 1363216 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 25 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 12 0
AS: 57241
INP: 2.09 2.00
PER: 1.97 1.96
delay: 9.04 9.00
OR: 28.28 28.44
Bitswap: 0 0
Total time = 15 hours 54 min 24 sec
SF = 3367129
CRC = 34
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 25
Latest 1 day time = 15 hours 54 min 24 sec
SF = 3367129
CRC = 34
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 25
Latest 15 minutes time = 9 min 24 sec
SF = 33217
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52923
CRC = 1
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 1
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
SF = 0
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52923
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52982
CRC = 1
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 1
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 52923
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
Showtime Drop Reason: 0
Last Retrain Reason: 0
#
#
Quote from: Bill on Jul 26, 2009, 23:23:30
Or even LLU operator... they all use the same piece of copper (or aluminium if you're really unlucky).
Sheesh, I thought mine were bad... 60,000,000 and 120,000 in about 3 weeks!
I didn't mention LLU as they don't use profiles nor the same DLM system :)
As for the errors, I should have said 12
days, not hours!
That's a relief, Lance. :)
That error level doesn't look too bad, Mist.
Quote from: Rik on Jul 27, 2009, 11:02:02
That error level doesn't look too bad, Mist.
The Mystery of Mists missing meg.
Just hoping that CS get back to me soon.
I have just checked routerstats whilst posting as leave it running, now what is causing this hhhmm.
[attachment deleted by admin]
It looks like a classic noise spike.
Yes and the interesting fact is that there is nothing electrical in use in the house at present apart from this PC.
Was busy polishing........ and that occurs
It could be anywhere between you and the exchange, unfortunately. :)
oh heavens, my side of the dratted demarcation side of the socket or theirs ?
Theirs, in all probability.
phewwwwwwwwwww, wipes sweat from brow,
It's good and bad. If it is their side, there's a good chance it won't be resolved.
Quote from: 4Way on Jul 26, 2009, 23:16:30
Use the following in your browser of choice,
192.168.0.1/setup.cgi?todo=debug
You can now telnet in through a cmd window
If you're using Windows: Start, run, cmd, telnet 192.168.0.1
I'm assuming you're using the default IP address
alternatively use the excellent routerstats which will give you all the info you want.
I have tried that and entered debug mode with no problem but when I enter the telnet command in a cmd window I get the error 'telnet command not recognised'. So it does not work on my Netgear DG834G v4 router.
Thanks anyway.
Colin
Update
No reply from CS to my emails this weekend.
Yet more of those events showed on my routerstats which Rik suggested were noise spikes this afternoon. At one time I lost connectivity, pulled all wires out of router in sheer frustration then went and slammed the iron on his shirts as router was still showing 9.3 noise margin and 3 meg profile after reconnecting.
This is now most annoying.
I don't recommend pulling the wires, Mist, if anything it will cause the dynamic line management software to think your line is more unstable. Support have been under a lot of pressure today, due to the need to balance the network again, and one person being on holiday. I'll see if I can get someone to take a look in the morning. (Speed is not considered an emergency for out of hours...)
Thank you Rik, I shall also chase the matter up tomorrow as obviously I want this line/speed/profile issue rectified.
I've alerted support to the thread, Mist. Please be aware that, if the BT software decides to raise margins, it's often difficult to get anything done. If IDNet successfully get the margin reduced, and the system decides to increase it again, it's almost impossible to get it reduced a second time, so do check that you've got everything filtered, that the filters are in good working order and that you don't have any flat extensions in use.
Quote from: wecpcs on Jul 27, 2009, 13:36:34
I have tried that and entered debug mode with no problem but when I enter the telnet command in a cmd window I get the error 'telnet command not recognised'. So it does not work on my Netgear DG834G v4 router.
Thanks anyway.
Colin
Usually you get this message if you've not installed telnet from your windows applications list, depending on your version of windows.
IOW telnet is not usually automatically installed. You have to install it first.
Quote from: bobleslie on Jul 27, 2009, 20:48:57
Usually you get this message if you've not installed telnet from your windows applications list, depending on your version of windows.
IOW telnet is not usually automatically installed. You have to install it first.
Thanks, I discovered that after downloading and installing routerstats. I then discovered that Vista has it disabled by default. Everything is fine now.
Thanks again.
Colin
Good news, Colin, I like a happy ending. ;)
Thanks for letting us know, Colin.
Quote from: Rik on Jul 27, 2009, 19:39:43
I've alerted support to the thread, Mist. Please be aware that, if the BT software decides to raise margins, it's often difficult to get anything done. If IDNet successfully get the margin reduced, and the system decides to increase it again, it's almost impossible to get it reduced a second time, so do check that you've got everything filtered, that the filters are in good working order and that you don't have any flat extensions in use.
My rant will not be as bad as it may have been if I had posted immediately after speaking to support.
I was told its just the BT system, something must have happened. If I keep connected satisfactorily for 10-14 days my noise margin may drop to the default of 6db again....but there again it may not.
The fact that my line was runing at 4 meg previously appears to be of no consequence, it may be that BT have decided that was too fast for my line to cope with....
I note that I was complaining of low throughput at the start of this thread whih I started, that appears to have an official notice of explanation on the forum and therefore it may be that I have been hit by a 'double whammy' ohh plus joining just as GW6 went pear-shaped and having to be moved onto GW5 almost immediately.
I came to IDNet from o2 Access as it was known for lack of bandwidth in the evenings and weekends once I was out of contract, with a 4meg line and 6 db default SNR. Correctly wired up by ourselves and Openreach after spending a couple of years learning by reading Kitz and DZL Zone and spending the money when needed to ensure this household got the best it could on BTIpstream with a good stable line and now this..for which it appears I should be grateful......
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 3808 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2821 kbps
I am not a happy IDNet customer.
There's not much I can say, Mist. I have a target 9db margin because my line is not stable at 6db. If I want to change that, my only option is to move (I do, in fact have two lines, and they both settle at 9db with a 57db attenuation - one profiles at 2500 one at 3000). Because of BT's profile system, quite small changes in sync speed can cause big changes in throughput - ie a 32k drop in sync can trigger a 500k drop in throughput. No ISP who uses BT's underlying services can get round this problem.
Your only solution, if the speeds are unacceptable and you cannot achieve the stability that BT require to lower the target NM is to migrate to an LLU operator, such as Be, who does not operate under profiling.
Nor do they have imposed target margins.
The problem is that if the BT systems decide that a line has sufficiently degraded (something happening to all lines due to increased broadband take up and age of lines) then there is pratically nothing any ISP can do about it. The 14 day wait for a drop in margin will work as long as the BT system is convinced the line will be stable. Just like the disclaimer on financial products, past perormance should not be used as a guide to future performance!
Quote from: Rik on Jul 28, 2009, 12:41:40
There's not much I can say, Mist. I have a target 9db margin because my line is not stable at 6db. If I want to change that, my only option is to move (I do, in fact have two lines, and they both settle at 9db with a 57db attenuation - one profiles at 2500 one at 3000). Because of BT's profile system, quite small changes in sync speed can cause big changes in throughput - ie a 32k drop in sync can trigger a 500k drop in throughput. No ISP who uses BT's underlying services can get round this problem.
Your only solution, if the speeds are unacceptable and you cannot achieve the stability that BT require to lower the target NM is to migrate to an LLU operator, such as Be, who does not operate under profiling.
Like many who migrate to small operators I am a Market 1 exchange.
Support did not reply to my emails in fact I suspect from the conversation they had not even read them.
My line had been stable with a 6db noise margin for a very long time since we undertook all work necessary to achieve this, plus openreach own equipment testing in my home using their supplied fitted socket achieved a comfortable reaction of 'this is a 4 meg line' not be grateful for your new profile of 3 megs. with an 9db snr.
I do not accept that my line had degraded so much suddenly that I had an instantaneous event on Saturday which caused this, nor it appears to the error counts show any reason.
So I have lost a whole 1 meg on my profile......
Of course, the error counts might now be reduced due to the higher margin. I used to have a 4500 profiled line but slowly it has been deteriating and now I only get a 3500 profile, with a noise margin of 9db.
No one has said the degraging of your line was sudden - its just that the effects of it once its over the trigger point are.
I feel that BT's systems aren't particular good, though. I know of people that had higher target margins imposed by BT, yet their lines are fine at 6dB on LLU.
I agree completely, Sebby, but unless we can move to LLU we just have to live with the BT systems :(
As Lance says, Mist, lines degrade, systems change, noise happens. It's the nature of ADSL Max that it's rate-adaptive, it will change the parameters based on stability, not speed. BT's systems are designed to give you a stable connection, not a fast one, and no ISP can alter that.
I know your emails have been read, as I have been in contact several times with support over your problem. The latest ones haven't been replied to because you have spoken to support and they have answered them in that conversation.
I'm sorry if you can't accept that your line has degraded, mine has too, as have many others. As more people take up broadband connections, and particularly higher speed ones, the crosstalk has increased, which in turn leads to higher error counts. BT's systems see that as an issue and attempt to control it by the use of higher margins and interleaving. I have recently watched a new line train, and seen the effects of first interleaving, then the increased margin cutting in, so that I went from a sync of 4672 to 3774. You only need some crosstalk and a little corrosion at one of the many joints between you and the exchange to impact on your speed. Bear in mind that the infrastructure is designed to carry voice calls and has changed little in 100 years.
We can do nothing more to help you here. As you have been told, you need to achieve a 14 day period of stability before the system will consider lowering the noise margin. Until then, you don't have a problem, your line is working as it's designed to. None of us like that fact, but we cannot change it.
Quote from: Rik on Jul 28, 2009, 13:14:32
We can do nothing more to help you here.
A very polite way indeed of saying go away and don't upset the applecart by moaning on the forum.
Goodbye.
No, a statement of fact, Mist. There's nothing more we can tell you. By all means moan, but we really can't add anything to what we've said, just as IDNet can't add to what they've said. We're all governed by the laws of physics & BT, and we can do nothing to change them. If I want higher speeds, I need to find a house closer to the exchange, ideally with copper rather than aluminium cables. There's nothing that IDNet can do to improve my speeds unless I do. Only when fibre is generally available do I expect to see an improvement, as it will reduce the lengths of our lines to a few hundred metres, rather than, in my case, several kilometres.
This really is 100% down to BT. Not IDNet or any other ISP has control over the target margin. Frustrating, but true.
I have in my limited time here never seen so many comments from frustrated and upset individuals.We have issues with the performance of WBC and although we only see a small sample here of idnet customers, my impression is that it is not "fit for purpose" . The traditional adsl max product is also suffering from periods of congestion affecting the centrals. The blame for both these issues is laid squarely at the feet of BT, whether this is true or not I am not qualified to comment. I here comments of support unable or unwilling to help but idnet must accept responsibilty for this mess as they are the seller of both products. I fear it will all come to a rather messing end unless things change for the better soon. People are voting with their feet and in this internet age news travels fast. Personally with the benefit of hindsight they jumped on the WBC bandwagon too soon whilst for instance Zen have not yet released their WBC product. I sincerely hope for the sake of their customers they get things sorted soon. Me I am going on holiday soon and I hope all's well when I return.
As do we all, Steve. :fingers: Somewhere nice?
Quote from: stevethegas on Jul 28, 2009, 18:02:12
Me I am going on holiday soon and I hope all's well when I return.
My problems started when I got back from mine. Still enjoy yourself. ;D
I have to say I'm one of these disgruntled customers now.
taken me over a week to get on line and my speed is dropping faster than a stone
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4539 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 888 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2075 kbps
I'm now getting 2/3rds less than on sky connect. This aint good enough IDnet, you promise the earth and give little, Support said to me. Well add it to the list of complaints, well something has to be done very soon or I'm off
Not far from here in SW France, we hope to get to the top . The Pic du Canigou,a colleague and friend's ashes were laid at the peak, he died at the age of 52. I think that puts broadband issues into perspective.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Hi Steve
It disappointing and frustrating for customers who experience problems with their upgraded lines. There may well be an element of it being a new service that is still bedding-in. We have around 500 customers now connected to ADSL2+ but we also have a list or around 20 customers with ongiong problems that we have yet to find the resolution on. We are working with a "specialist team" within BT to track down the cause of these problems for those customers. At this stage we do not know how long it will take to find the resolution for those 20 or so customers but we will not stop until we have got to the bottom of it.
Cheers
Simon
Quote from: stevethegas on Jul 28, 2009, 18:19:34
Not far from here in SW France, we hope to get to the top . The Pic du Canigou,a colleague and friend's ashes were laid at the peak, he died at the age of 52. I think that puts broadband issues into perspective.
It does, Steve, have a great time. :)
Quote from: mist on Jul 28, 2009, 13:22:59
A very polite way indeed of saying go away and don't upset the applecart by moaning on the forum.
Goodbye.
Having pointed you in this direction Mist, I am sorry that it has turned out for you like it has :( :blush:
Quote from: coreservers on Jul 28, 2009, 18:16:43
I have to say I'm one of these disgruntled customers now.
taken me over a week to get on line and my speed is dropping faster than a stone
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4539 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 888 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2075 kbps
I'm now getting 2/3rds less than on sky connect. This aint good enough IDnet, you promise the earth and give little, Support said to me. Well add it to the list of complaints, well something has to be done very soon or I'm off
I have been watching your travails and they have been an extreme failure OF BT.
I only know by looking through two threads that your attenuation is 40db.
Previously, when you synced at 8M, you were reporting SNR margin varying between 3db and 8 (do I remember correctly?)db.
Most of us have not had such awful treatment by exchange 'engineer' idiots, but many of us have had to track down noise problems. We have no knowledge of how your line behaved when you were on Sky Connect, so can't judge if the varying noise margin is new, representing either E-side or D-side pair change, or if it's something in your house. SNR margin shouldn't vary by 5db on a 40db line. You also shouldn't keep re-syncing. Hopefully you're not working hot and exciting DLM. Speed tests don't help much without some sort of history of syncs, SNR margin and errors.
Richard
I got this reply today from support
QuoteHi Chris,
Sorry about the ongoing issues you are experiencing, we have put a large amount of work into getting the balance right on the network and finally today we are seeing a very nice improvement in the load on our pipes. Can you monitor the connection for me.
I really hope I am going to see things improving, I can't use Iplayer unless I download the show before hand and skyplayer is unusable as well.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/527246291.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
I quick speed test at the moment shows a massive improvement tonight. That's the best I have had for over a month at this time of day.
I'll keep an eye on it for the next few evenings.
:fingers:
I've been speaking to IDNet throughout the day, Chris, and they are watching the graphs like hawks. So far, all looks good.
Sorry Rireed, I'm not trying to flame, but............ on sky connect, other than their ridiculous trafic shaping at 4pm 5.5mb to 384k! it was steady, latency wasnt great but speed was as I say a steady 5.5mb, Im using exactly the same connections, as I used then, although will be upgrading the cabling over the weekend, no point putting in new router etc. Since I got connected last Saturday, it has sat at 2mb 24 hours a day, tests at 4pm, 6pm, 11pm 5am all showing 2mb. Something aint right.
I tihnk i've been patient so far. and will continue to be so. I know support are tied with BT but I did expect a better service.
I suspect they are as frustrated as you. :(
coreservers,
So you no longer have a steady sync, clearly. That problem is some distance from Hertfordshire and IDNet.
When you say "same connections", you mean the mechanical ones you can see. You can't see if 'engineer' switched pairs in your cabinet, which leads to the other meaning of 'connections'.
When we speak of connections, we mean the sync you are able to obtain, meaning a simultaneous reading of sync speed (not speed-test throughput), SNR margin and errors, preferably with the time that sync has been up. This is clearly no longer steady, and you have to start posting these values with some regularity, if we are to see what is happening.
Richard
Stream Type
Actual Data Rate
Up Stream
888 (Kbps.)
Down Stream
4540 (Kbps.)
[Go Top]
Operation Data / Defect Indication:
Operation Data
Operation Data
Upstream
Downstream
Noise Margin
16 dB
13 dB
Attenuation
43 dB
--- dB
Notice nothing in downstream attenuation.
connection status is showing as "showtime"?
Had to hunt for the hidden page on the belkin G router
FYI anyone using one it's 192.168.2.1/adsl_status.stm
Noise looks fine. but my ip profile has gone from 7150 this morning to 3500 tonight.
Which means the line is unstable, Core. :( Your noise margin has been pushed up to 15db from the look of it, and I'd guess you have interleaving on. The next step is for you to go over your wiring after the test socket and make sure everything is fine, because if IDNet get BT out, it's going to cost you if they find something on your side of the demarcation point.
so how can it change from stable under sky to unstable under idnet, is adsl2+ more "sensitive" to noise, or has something changed at the exchange?
ADSL2+ is definitely more sensitive to noise given the higher frequencies used, I see almost daily re-syncs, compared to going 30-40 days without issue on Max, plus the error count is higher. However, you're also on a different bit of kit at the exchange, but that shouldn't be causing instability.
as I say I'm gonna upgrade all the cabling this weekend, we;ll see if that fixes things
As Rik says,
the 'noise' is not fine.
That is the noise _margin_. BT's automatic Dynamic Line Management (DLM) have stolen your bandwidth for two weeks. the 13db down margin is the indication that your sync has been crippled by BT for instability.
This has resulted from a number of re-syncs. Just a few in a matter of hours can do it. This is why I mentioned that I hoped you weren't working on your router and wires 'hot'.
The next thing is that the noise margin is also not steady, having moved from the 12 or 15db 'target' set by DLM to 13db. You must look at this frequently at first to see how it is changing. Ultimately you may want to record it with the RouterStats tool.
Best not change the cabling until you track down the problem. You do that by eliminating the cabling at the test socket.
Rik is also right that you must make the cleanest hookup possible, with a short ADSL cord and the filter straight into the test socket so you disconnect all the house extension wiring. Turn off the router first, of course.
Another difference, as I said before, is that 'engineer' might have switched pairs on you. If the test socket doesn't improve anything, that's almost certainly the case, as a different big interference outside the house would be too coincidental.,
Richard
Agreed, Richard, a pair swap may have happened. We need Core's wiring to be squeaky clean before BT get involved, so that he doesn't get a nasty bill.
there are no extensions into the main socket, just the router, which has been in the test socket since the engineer asked me to last Friday.
I've carefully tracked my cat5 as well and it runs well away from any sub floor cabling. up against the front wall of the house.
Still at least I'm online. eh ::)
I'll contact support again tomorrow, felt I got a bit brushed off this morning, "we'll add you to the list" before I could really explain anything
It's beginning to look like it's down to 'engineer'.
There are definitely people in support who know how to pursue it with BT/Openreach if that's the case.
Try to have a conversation that explains
- before your migration you had a stable line but very bad throughput. You haven't really got as far as throughput with IDNet, as you will describe as follows:
- at migration you had several very stupid errors at the exchange that kept you offline for a week
- after openreach faffing around the houses outside and putting you in the test socket where you stay, you have a very noisy unstable line that connects anywhere from 8M to 4.5M with margin between 15 and 3 and can't stay up.
- please help get Openreach to get back the line you had before, or fix whatever's still wrong in the exchange
If you feel brushed off again, come back on here and tell us what happened. I think that before, your complaint about speed tests had them assume you were in with about 20 customers with current throughput problems. Your problems are from a newly unstable sync after BT botched their end of your migration several times. Don't forget -- your sync happens far away from any equipement IDNet controls. Syncs are from BT's equipment over BT's wires.
Richard
good advice richard.
I will do
checked again
and snr dropped again to 13
Noise Margin
13 dB
13 dB
Attenuation
43 dB
--- dB
your router output is a bit confusing --
from the more complete listing previously, 'upstream' is listed first, so I think 'downstream' was 13db both times -- but then I noticed that the only attenuation value would seem to be 'upstream' ???
You may have seen this, but here are some more belkin G links from the excellent kitz site:
http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/belkin_commands.htm (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/belkin_commands.htm)
Maybe one of these will be clearer.
Richard
That's where I got the command from.
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 4536 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 888 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2095 kbps
and yes it is showing --- as downstream attenuation
Seems standard for it to show upstream 1st.
Operation Data
Upstream
Downstream
Noise Margin
16 dB
13 dB
Attenuation
43 dB
--- dB
but I agree it seems to be the upstream snr that fluctuates
To me it looks like the router is confusing it's upstream and downstream!
well support just say, it;s the bt adsl2+ problems, noise will change, nothing they can do. I'm not convinced. and am a little concerned after over a week of hassle that i'm now being fobbed off.
It's the learning period is the other reason.
To be fair, Core, I'm seeing far more variation with WBC than with Max, both in NM and sync speed, and the line is definitely less stable.
Quote from: Rik on Jul 29, 2009, 10:24:03
To be fair, Core, I'm seeing far more variation with WBC than with Max, both in NM and sync speed, and the line is definitely less stable.
Less stable doesn't quite cover this, Rik.
His line can no longer hold sync at half the rate he had for years before BT engineers screwed up several times and kept him off line for a week.
I have to say that with that history, this is beginning to look like a fob-off to me. For the first time I can remember, someone at IDNet is not listening.
Richard
I understand, Richard, and I share your concerns.
im concerned that more people on here seem to be getting less helpful responses from support. are they swamped? and if so is there no CS model to follow?
But my broadband at the moment is frankly awful. has been awful since the supposed "simple migration process" and it seems both IDnet and BT, simply cant be bothered to do anything about it. I do hope they're not going the way of other UK BB suppliers.
I was talked over when I tried to make a point, as if they are fed up hearing from me. I'm less than happy today.
Core,
There is one other variable that you have control over regardless of IDNet or BT.
At the beginning of the rollout, a number of router/firmware combinations were found to be incompatible with WBC ADSL2+ at
certain exchanges.
The Belkin N was found to be among those that worked on those exchanges, assuming
recent firmware. No mention was made of the Belkin G, as far as I know.
I ran afoul of this myself, as my exchange has the offending equipment, and I floundered about for a week trying various routers and firmwares. I now have three very different routers that I know all work.
Edit: First, find and get the most recent firmware for your router. If that doesn' help,
end Edit:I suggest you get one of the other routers to try. The ones I know of are:
- Netgear DG834G (G for wireless). v4 hardware is more desirable, v5 hardware works and I have one.
- Thomson Speedtouch TG585v7. I don't have this hardware but it comes with necessarily recent firmware that I discovered at length for the v6 hardware
- 2-wire 2700HGV - a bit of a hack, as they are superficially locked to BT in the UK. There is a sub-forum to this one that deals with this specifically - very stable sync, very cheap from ebay, buy carefully for the firmware, plenty of help from Rik and others
Richard
Hi coresevers
I can assure you that we are not fed up with you. We can see that either the exchange line card or copper pair that you were served by developed a fault on or before your migration to us. BT have now moved you to a new line card and/or copper pair which has at least restored service to you. Now your speed is not what you are used to experiencing. However, your line is still in the Training Period and so has yet to settle down, so we need to wait for that to complete. In addition we suspect that your line is suffering from the profile/throughput mis-match problem that we have identified to BT. We have asked BT to look into your specific case for us nd we are currently awaiting their response on that. We'll let you know as soon as we hear of any progress.
Regards
Simon
Thanks for the response Simon. just getting frustrated, after a nigtmare week
rireed, i'd love to get one of these other routers, the major obstacle is money. I.E. i have none :red:
I have to go with what I have,.
QuoteI have to go with what I have,.
You still better put the latest firmware on the router. Belkin have lots of models and firmwares. Please say which of the following yours is, and I can help you find the latest firmware for it:
The 7230's have one wifi aerial
F5D7230uk4 Wireless G Router (Model 1)
F5D7230uk4 Wireless G Router (Model 2)
F5D7230uk4 Wireless G Router (Model 4)
F5D7230uk4 Wireless G Router (Model 6)
F5D7230uk4 Wireless G Router (Model 7)
The rest have two aerials
F5D7231uk4 Wireless G Plus Router (Model 1)
F5D7231uk4 Wireless G Plus Router (Model 2)
F5D9230uk4 Wireless G Plus MIMO Router (model 3)
The modem-help (http://download.modem-help.co.uk/) site has multiple firmwares for each model number, so you'll have to find the number and 'model 1,2,etc'.
Richard
Quote from: coreservers on Jul 29, 2009, 11:27:24
I have to go with what I have,.
IDNet have been known to lend routers to eliminate problems, you might want to ask them. I'd normally offer you one of mine, but it's already 'out on a case' atm. When it comes back, if you haven't resolved your issues, I'll let you know.
This is dying faster than I can believe, learning period or not. it aint geting any faster
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 3064 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 888 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 2500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2113 kbps
What's your NM at?
Noise Margin
21 dB
14 dB
Attenuation
43 dB
--- dB
totally changed again.
cmon idnet, this isnt my line learning this is a non rectified fault
If your NM is at 21db, it would be worth forcing a re-sync.
Quotecmon idnet, this isnt my line learning this is a non rectified fault
or maybe incompatible router firmware -- please see my previous post. This happened to numbers of people running old firmware when they went on WBC, even on routers that later turned out hardware-compatible.
just run the auto firmware update on the router, but it's coming back as up to date.
It's worth asking support if they can lend you a router then.
dont know if it's significant but some errors are showing up as far end
Fast Path CRC Error
0
53
Interleaved Path CRC Error
0
53
the 0 is near end
Nothing to worry about there.
I got far end and near. Far end FEC, CRC and HEC.
Copyright (c) 1994 - 2007 ZyXEL Communications Corp.
ras> wan adsl perfdata
near-end FEC error fast: 0
near-end FEC error interleaved: 0
near-end CRC error fast:1935
near-end CRC error interleaved: 0
near-end HEC error fast: 0
near-end HEC error interleaved: 0
far-end FEC error fast: 136
far-end FEC error interleaved: 0
far-end CRC error fast: 91
far-end CRC error interleaved: 0
far-end HEC error fast: 204
far-end HEC error interleaved: 0
ras>
Anyone else get disconnected a number of times yesterday?
What sort of disconnects? PPP or sync?
Yours was most likely the latter as no one else has reported anything. Being a loss if sync, it us something local to your line from exchange to house.
The other possibility, Juice is that you were caught up in the re-balancing which was going on, but that should only have caused one loss of connection, PPP, so I think Lance is more likely to be right.
getting a test router sent, should be interesting
It's one more possibility eliminated. It should come pre-configured, just plug and play.
I really dont understand these speed test results the upstream has shot up from 888 to what you see below?
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 3064 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1116 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 2500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2115 kbps
Lower noise in the u/s band last time you synced...
you could be right, I'm now up to 23db 9db. still creeping up, but not a lot happening. waiting for this router to arrive to see if that's anything to do with it. I still think it's my wonderous exchange tho.