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Technical News & Discussion => Networking & Routers => Netgear => Topic started by: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 16:28:32

Title: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 16:28:32
Has anyone any ideas what's going on with my connection?  I've posted before about a 47 attentuation and 8/9 SNR but only 1300 Kbps sync down.  It looked like I've simply got a poor quality line to my house and nothing much I can do.  However, the first Netgear v4 I got from idnet has been replaced after support saw that I was regularly losing my connection but not resyncing.

So today I got a Netgear v5 in the post.  I've put it in and the sync speed is the same, but the other stats are surprising!

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1373 kbps 1115 kbps
Line Attenuation 30.0 db 26.0 db
Noise Margin 6.60 db 7.0 db

So now my speed is even poorer based on the new attenuation, if I understand correctly?

Strangely, even though I test without various cables and filters etc.  Always in the test socket.  I've now found plugging my phone into the filter causes the connection to drop.  It was just a cheap argos job to do the quiet line test with.

Is it possible my connection speed will improve now that the attenuation is being reported nearly twice as low as it always used to be?
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 16:32:29
It should do, but it should show up immediately as an improved sync. I'd be tempted to try a 2-Wire 2700 on your line to see if that helps.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: James_D on Jul 11, 2009, 16:38:35
Attenuation is just the distance of your line from the exchange, noise margin is the available space with which to improove your sync rate (rough guide here)

with an attenuation of 30DB you can get about a 6000kbps sync if you have enough noise.

If you have an attenuation of 47DB you can expec 3000-4500kbps all depending on line quality.
It is very strange that your attenuation has changed so drastically, this could be a faulty router reporting it wrongly and its now been corrected or it could imply a fault on the line.

Download Router stats (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm) this will let you see your noise margin over a period of time, if its going up and down like a rabbit in summer then something is very wrong.

If your using a test socket I can assume you have found your master socket and I'm guessing its an NTE5 type? whats your connection like with nothing but the modem and filter plugged in?

**EDIT** dammit rik your fast!
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 16:40:20
Sue says exactly the same.  :evil:
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 16:48:49
Thanks for the quick replies :-)

Yes its NTE, a BT engineer has been and replaced it recently too.

I'm using routerstats already and the SNR is fairly stable, obviously a bit better through the night.

I used to be with a different ISP and the thomson modem I had then also reported about 45/47 attenuation.  This going down to 27-30 seems odd.

Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: James_D on Jul 11, 2009, 16:57:22
I just noticed your upload, by that I can assume you've moved to ADSL2+?

If yes then be prepared to wait a bit, it looks as if BT has completley misjudged the demand for ADSL2+ I have a hige 16-17DB noise margin yet im still getting CRC errors / Errored Seconds and my sync rate is 57% of what is possible (3072 of 5364) this appears to be widespread with the ADSL2+ rollout what we cant seem to pinpoint is wether it truly is congestion on the new equipment or a configuration / compatability issue at BT's end. either way a solution might be a way off atm, I have this raised with IDnet support at the moment but were waiting on BT

As for the attenuation its calculated from the ammount of signal that reaches the router if it truly has gone down this would indicate a long term fault on the line that was killing it earlier keep and eye on it and it may go up and down but to be honest I've never seen an attenuation drop below where it "should" be as it's not theoretically possible, unless the router is reporting it wrong ;-)

Also worth noting that I believe the chipset in the V5 is a conexant where the V4 is a broadcom the latter imo being a better chipset
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:00:42
Quote from: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 16:48:49
I'm using routerstats already and the SNR is fairly stable, obviously a bit better through the night.

That's when it should be at its least stable.  :shake: I agree with James, something odd is happening, but with all the work BT are doing on infrastructure atm, it is possible that lines might improve.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 17:03:10
Hi James,

Yes I'm on WBC, I was from the start as I signed up recently.

The first Netgear I bought from IDNEt was v4.  I've now been sent the v5.  I'd heard that the v4 was better but it seemed to be having problems with thinking it was connected but not letting me ping or browse anything.

I don't understand the attenuation improving so much with the v5 router.

Rik: I've looked through a lot of 2 Wire posts but could you point me in the right direction as to where to get one and if it matters what version?

When I say SNR was better in the night, I mean it just went lower.  It was still fairly stable.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:08:08
Lower is not better in this situation, it indicates the line is picking up more noise. Do you have hard-wired extensions, and is the ring wire connected to terminal 3 of the NTE5 face plate (usually orange/white)?

2700s are only available on eBay, but can be picked up for £10-15 usually. Whereabouts in the country are you?
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: James_D on Jul 11, 2009, 17:09:42
Quote from: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:08:08
Lower is not better in this situation, it indicates the line is picking up more noise. Do you have hard-wired extensions, and is the ring wire connected to terminal 3 of the NTE5 face plate (usually orange/white)?

2700s are only available on eBay, but can be picked up for £10-15 usually. Whereabouts in the country are you?

beat me to it again ;-)
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:09:58
Sorry. ;)
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Simon on Jul 11, 2009, 17:14:44
Quote from: James_D on Jul 11, 2009, 17:09:42
beat me to it again ;-)

Come back later, James, he's not here in the evenings.  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:16:32
I heard that. ;D
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Simon on Jul 11, 2009, 17:22:31
Pardon?
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:25:05
Uncle Mort, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 17:28:24
Thanks Rik.  I might try a 2Wire at that price.

I've just noticed I wasn't in the test socket.  I usually am but since the BT engineer replaced the master socket I hadn't been.  I'm back in the test socket now but its still reporting a much better attenuation than I've ever seen at this house.

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1519 kbps 1167 kbps
Line Attenuation 27.5 db 25.5 db
Noise Margin 6.90 db 7.0 db

I don't have any extensions that I'm aware of.  I'm in the test socket so it shouldnt matter?  The BT line comign into the house as 4 wires in it, black, green, white and orange.  The white and orange are connected.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: JohnH on Jul 11, 2009, 17:28:30
Quote from: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:08:08


2700s are only available on eBay, but can be picked up for £10-15 usually.

Rik, is this just overpriced then?

http://www.digidave.co.uk/jshop/product.php?xProd=259&xSec=4
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:30:03
Very and, tbh, our experience of that retailer has been less than good.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 17:30:42
Forgot to say Rik, I'm in York.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 17:35:00
I could lend you a 2 Wire to try, if you want to PM me your address.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Steve on Jul 11, 2009, 17:44:29
There's always a few on ebay,one for a tenner at present . Search for 2700 hgv.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: James_D on Jul 11, 2009, 17:55:06
Quote from: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 17:28:24
Thanks Rik.  I might try a 2Wire at that price.

I've just noticed I wasn't in the test socket.  I usually am but since the BT engineer replaced the master socket I hadn't been.  I'm back in the test socket now but its still reporting a much better attenuation than I've ever seen at this house.

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1519 kbps 1167 kbps
Line Attenuation 27.5 db 25.5 db
Noise Margin 6.90 db 7.0 db

I don't have any extensions that I'm aware of.  I'm in the test socket so it shouldnt matter?  The BT line comign into the house as 4 wires in it, black, green, white and orange.  The white and orange are connected.

Indeed if your in the test socket it isolates all exterior wiring, the lines coming in are correct orange should be to pin 2 or B and white is pin 5 or A but as I say as your on ADSL2+ I wouldnt expect much of an increase for a while as things seem to be a bit fubar at the moment.

I will say though with an attenuation of 27.5 and a noise margin of about 7db and that sync rate it looks to me like something between your house and the exchange is wrong. to give you some idea I'm not in a great place my attenuation is 49DB (approx 3.6km from exchange) and I have a noise margin of 17 with a sync rate of 3072Kbps on monday give IDnet a ring and see if they have logged any loss of signal problems, you will have had a few switching into the test socket and its always advisable to keep these to a minimum as the exchange senses these disconnects as a problem if you do it too often.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 18:01:01
My own stats are 63db attenuation, NM 9db, sync 4262.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: JohnH on Jul 11, 2009, 18:23:41
I am getting 50db attenuation, NM 6.8db, sync 4512 with a Netgear DG834PN using DG team firmware.
Think I could do better though....
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 18:25:46
Not a lot, I suspect. You're at the convergent end of the graphs, where speeds are similar for ADSL Max and 2+.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: JohnH on Jul 11, 2009, 18:29:10
Do you think a change of router might squeeze out an extra half meg?
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 18:30:21
It's always possible. For my line the 2-Wire 2700 did just that.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: JohnH on Jul 11, 2009, 18:32:03
I think I might invest in one, otherwise I'll always wonder.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 18:32:50
It's got to be worth it, if it doesn't work out for you, there's a ready market to sell it on to.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Sebby on Jul 11, 2009, 19:07:55
Quote from: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 17:28:24
Thanks Rik.  I might try a 2Wire at that price.

I've just noticed I wasn't in the test socket.  I usually am but since the BT engineer replaced the master socket I hadn't been.  I'm back in the test socket now but its still reporting a much better attenuation than I've ever seen at this house.

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1519 kbps 1167 kbps
Line Attenuation 27.5 db 25.5 db
Noise Margin 6.90 db 7.0 db

I don't have any extensions that I'm aware of.  I'm in the test socket so it shouldnt matter?  The BT line comign into the house as 4 wires in it, black, green, white and orange.  The white and orange are connected.

It's very odd how the attenuation is being reported so low. I'd be more inclined to trust the previous Broadcom-based router, but even so, the sync rate is terrible. I don't know what else to suggest, though. :(
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: JohnH on Jul 11, 2009, 19:26:45
Quote from: Rik on Jul 11, 2009, 18:32:50
It's got to be worth it, if it doesn't work out for you, there's a ready market to sell it on to.

Not one to let the grass grow, I have just made a £12.99 investment on Ebay.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Steve on Jul 11, 2009, 20:32:39
Quote from: Sebby on Jul 11, 2009, 19:07:55
It's very odd how the attenuation is being reported so low. I'd be more inclined to trust the previous Broadcom-based router, but even so, the sync rate is terrible. I don't know what else to suggest, though. :(

I would be interested to find out via support if this is a "banded" profile i.e a deliberate imposition of a sync ceiling imposed by BT on noisy or high error count ADSL2+ connections.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: James_D on Jul 11, 2009, 21:38:26
Quote from: stevethegas on Jul 11, 2009, 20:32:39
I would be interested to find out via support if this is a "banded" profile i.e a deliberate imposition of a sync ceiling imposed by BT on noisy or high error count ADSL2+ connections.

Ironically I think most of the high error counts are caused by the BT Kit  ;)
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Steve on Jul 11, 2009, 22:04:00
You may well be right, so their response it is to sit on you keep you quiet because they have at present no other solution. I know that on this forum we have seem examples of previously perfectly useable adsl max connections turned into dross by the move to adsl 2+. Did BT buy their equipment in a Woolworth's fire sale.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: zappaDPJ on Jul 11, 2009, 22:35:03
I'd be interested to know if my connection is banded to keep it stable.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 11, 2009, 23:52:43
Well I've suffered another loss of connectivity even though the router says its still up.  That's with the replacement router which is v5.  As Sebby says, I'd trust the v4.  I dont' really think I've got an attenuation of less than 30db.  Support have already told me the line looks ok.  But what is ok? What if its a problem every so often like mine?  I had the same problem with the BT engineer who I got out on the basis of checking the voice line service.  He said he can't see a problem so he can't fix it.  I've clearly got a problem, but neither BT nor IDNEt appear to be able to do anything.

I'll keep my fingers crossed and call IDNET about the new router not solving anything.

Thanks all for your help.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Sebby on Jul 11, 2009, 23:55:11
Quote from: stevethegas on Jul 11, 2009, 20:32:39
I would be interested to find out via support if this is a "banded" profile i.e a deliberate imposition of a sync ceiling imposed by BT on noisy or high error count ADSL2+ connections.

That's not possible - the only way of doing this is via the target margin, which is currently 6dB. There's no way they could really do anything else without it being obvious.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Lance on Jul 12, 2009, 00:30:59
Just going back a few posts about costbof the 2700 router...  I got a brand new one for £6.30   Plus postage delivered yesterday and also won a used one supplied just with power cable for £0.99 plus postage. Two routers for £16 ush isn't bad!
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Simon on Jul 12, 2009, 00:37:56
Not bad at all, Lance.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Steve on Jul 12, 2009, 09:12:16
Quote from: Sebby on Jul 11, 2009, 23:55:11
That's not possible - the only way of doing this is via the target margin, which is currently 6dB. There's no way they could really do anything else without it being obvious.

You may well be correct Sebby,you know far more about it than I ever will. However there are an increasing number of posts in various forums commenting on a "banding" with adsl2+ i.e http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,77267.0.html/ and others over at TBB.  The interchange of the words sync and profile to the same meaning only leads to the confusion. Can I suggest that since the advent of adsl2+ that BT have implemented additional controls on a broadband connection other than by control of the target margin.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Sebby on Jul 12, 2009, 10:46:10
Thanks, Steve, I'll have a read. From a technical point of view, i.e. just looking at the stats, I would have thought it would be possible to tell if BT were interfering.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 12, 2009, 10:55:58
I've put the old v4 back in just to double check and sure enough the attenuation and noise has gone back to what it was.

ADSL Link     Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed    1637 kbps    1012 kbps
Line Attenuation    46.0 db    26.5 db
Noise Margin    10.9 db    6.5 db

I'd like to believe the v5's better attenuation but surely it can't make that much of a difference.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 12, 2009, 11:05:35
No, or maybe yes. Some routers work better with some MSANs, some routers give false reports. Try the 2700 and you'll have a 2 out of 3, hopefully. :)
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 12, 2009, 11:06:46
Will do, thanks Rik.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Sebby on Jul 12, 2009, 15:31:08
Quote from: tpk on Jul 12, 2009, 10:55:58
I'd like to believe the v5's better attenuation but surely it can't make that much of a difference.

I'd say the v5 is probably reporting it wrong.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Gary on Jul 13, 2009, 08:16:09
Has the v5 which is a conexant chipset in it got the latest firmware?
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 13, 2009, 10:51:45
Hi Gary.  Yeah the v5 is on the latest firmware.  Apparently earlier versions got downstream and upstream the wrong way around.

This one is v6.00.25.  It's consistently getting about 30 attenuation but even worse speeds (about 1300 Kbps down).  I'm a little confused about SNR as I've read most modems report the "SNR margin" not the SNR.  Support have suggested I wait 24 hours for DLM.  I've been trying the v4 and the v5 so I'll stick with the v5 for longer now.

I suffer a loss of connection usually atleast once a day with both though (during which the router thinks its connected but I can't ping anything).  Only a reboot fixes it.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 13, 2009, 10:56:18
Sounds like a PPP session issue. Have a word with support and see what they are seeing happen to your line.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 13, 2009, 10:58:49
Support are saying the line looks ok while this is happening.  This is why I had a new router sent out.  I'll be talking to them again today.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 13, 2009, 11:00:29
That does sound like a PPP problem then. :(
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 13, 2009, 11:09:52
**googles ADSL PPP issues**

I haven't even got a phone plugged in now as that was causing disconnections too.  You wouldn't think I live within walking distance of the exchange with all these speed and connection problems..
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 13, 2009, 11:15:20
Oh, I would, it's where the cable runs that matters. Have you tried a different filter? The router on its way to you has a couple with it.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 13, 2009, 11:22:00
Thanks. I have tried different filters.  Should be interesting to see how the 2-Wire performs.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Sebby on Jul 13, 2009, 19:21:29
:fingers:
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 13, 2009, 21:02:19
Is it normal for my connection to go off and reconnect when I plug a phone in or out of the filter?  I've tried more than one phone.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: rireed3 on Jul 13, 2009, 21:19:22
I would say no.

Also don't test it anymore, as you will surely attract DLM to mess up your profile.

At the very least, when you use the new router and filter(s), turn off the old one first and configure the new one _before_ you plug it in.  Then turn off the new one, connect it with the new filter and then turn it on.

Richard
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 13, 2009, 22:17:42
Thanks for the advice.  I'll try to avoid many disconnections in future.  However, as I didn't know that the phone was doing that, I needed to try different phones etc so that I can be sure it's not anything my end, before reporting it to support.  Also, I'm often having to switch the modem on and off to get any net (even though the modem thinks its still connected).

I've never had better than 1500 kbps bt profile.  My speed has always been rubbish (about 1300 Kbps).  So I think my DLM is no doubt as bad as it gets already  :(

Support said today again that the line looked ok.  They then talked to BT and came back saying theyv'e flushed the cache but that I appeared to be connected PPPoE instead A.  As I've tried more than one modem and not changed any configuration, I don't think that's anything I have control over.  It sounds like Rik was right about PPP issues.

As things stand, I can't use a phone on the same line (as my sad excuse for broadband).
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Simon on Jul 13, 2009, 22:43:25
I'm sure you've checked this, but on the face of what you've said about the phones, it sounds like a filter problem.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Lance on Jul 13, 2009, 22:46:26
I agree Simon. I would try a different filter. The other thing is a loose connection being jogged when changing the phone.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Lance on Jul 13, 2009, 22:47:18
And I should have said, normally the option of connecting with pppoa or pppoe is in the router connection settings.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Sebby on Jul 14, 2009, 00:10:25
It does sound like a filter problem...
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 14, 2009, 09:38:31
Thanks.  I have tried different filters while testing the connection problems, but you're right, the disconnections as I plug a phone in or out turns out to have been due to the new filter which came with the latest router.  I've gone back to my ADSL Nation face plate and that doesn't happen anymore :-)

I'll wait and see if that fixes the disconnections too.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: tpk on Jul 14, 2009, 14:14:27
I've now got a 2-Wire to try out and it confirms the v5 netgear is probably just wrong about the attenuation.

v5

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1519 kbps 1129 kbps
Line Attenuation 31.0 db 25.5 db
Noise Margin 6.15 db 8.0 db

2-wire

Downstream Rate:     1907 kbps
Upstream Rate:    863 kbps
Channel:    Interleaved
Current Noise Margin:    6.7 dB (Downstream), 6.6 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation:    46.0 dB (Downstream), 27.3 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power:    16.6 dBm (Downstream), 11.9 dBm (Upstream)

Those stats are nearer that of the Netgear v4.  The 2-Wire speed is a bit faster though.  Still not at all good for the attenuation.
Title: Re: Netgear v5 changes
Post by: Rik on Jul 14, 2009, 15:23:25
But we are slowly eliminating the possibilities. Let IDNet have the three sets of stats.