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Technical News & Discussion => Unix/Linux News & Discussion => Topic started by: pup on Jan 29, 2009, 00:00:37

Title: Linux
Post by: pup on Jan 29, 2009, 00:00:37
I have probably asked this before :whistle:, but what version of Linux is recommended for a novice? :eek4:

Also what is WINE and Virtual Box? (VM?),  whats the difference?
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Steve on Jan 29, 2009, 07:55:15
I started with Ubuntu(not progressed any further ;D)WINE is a linux program that allows you to execute a windows program on a linux platform. Virtual box is Virtual Machine software which when installed allows you to run another OS on top of another one, useful as it avoids having dual boot, separate partitions etc but there is a delay as you have to start the primary OS before you can boot the second and the machine must have sufficient resources.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: JB on Jan 29, 2009, 09:34:42

As Steve has said, Ubuntu is widely regarded as being a good start. It is a fairly familiar environment if coming from Windows and manages to install on most recent machines without too many problems.

Another way to play with Linux is something like Puppy Linux, which was discussed in another thread on Idnetters. It is a small download and you can boot from CD and play with a live system without making any changes to your hard drive. In that way you can get a feel for it remembering that it is quite cut down and doesn't have all the programs that something like Ubuntu would have.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Steve on Jan 29, 2009, 09:45:44
There is also wubi (http://wubi-installer.org/) which runs Ubuntu from within windows,installs (and can be removed) like any other piece of windows software.Its only slightly slower than a separate install on my machine
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: kinmel on Jan 29, 2009, 09:47:14
Start with a look at Ubuntu and if that works for you then try another version of Linux too.

New Ubuntu users should start with the official Beginners Guide (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Guide)

Good luck.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Jan 29, 2009, 12:46:33
Another vote for Ubuntu here.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Simon on Jan 29, 2009, 12:51:14
I also started with Ubuntu, but went no further.  There's a very helpful Ubuntu forum, who, like us, don't treat newbies as numpties.  :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: davej99 on Jan 29, 2009, 15:56:15
I have no knowledge or experience of Linux whatever. Following Kinmel's link for Ubuntu beginners, I downloaded the LiveCD image, burnt it and booted to run from the CD as a trial. This boot apparently does not write to the hard drive at all. Even running from the CD, response seems crisp, though I do have 2G of memory. Amazingly, within a minute or so, here I am browsing IDNET in Firefox through my usual router without doing a thing, except zooming text size. Frankly that is impressive. So for fellow newbies, I would say it is well worth a try.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: davej99 on Jan 29, 2009, 15:56:24
Deleted - posted twice.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Jan 29, 2009, 15:59:08
Though apparently it causes double posting. ;D :out:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: davej99 on Jan 29, 2009, 16:01:03
I was dazzled by the speed!
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Jan 29, 2009, 16:02:12
 ;D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Jan 29, 2009, 16:41:37
:hehe:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Simon on Jan 29, 2009, 18:24:19
:)x
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: kinmel on Jan 29, 2009, 19:29:37
Quote from: davej99 on Jan 29, 2009, 15:56:15
Amazingly, within a minute or so, here I am browsing IDNET in Firefox through my usual router without doing a thing, except zooming text size. Frankly that is impressive. So for fellow newbies, I would say it is well worth a try.  :thumb:

And there is no magic involved  ;D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: pup on Jan 29, 2009, 19:48:50
Ubuntu it is then. Ive already got an install disk for that. its going on my laptop ill try it now.... :eek4:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: trophymick on Jan 29, 2009, 20:44:14
I tried Ubuntu for a short period and liked it a lot, it flies :thumb:  Only problem was, I have Garmin Mapsource on my computer (for those that don't know, it's a GPS mapping/routing programme) and Linux doesn't support it. I'm not that concerned about most of the other Windows based stuff. I have heard that it will run in Wine (?) but I didn't have a clue how to do it :dunno: I am building up the courage to try it again :thumb:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: pup on Jan 29, 2009, 20:56:31
the only programs that i really want to use are firefox, thunderbird, and vagcom, which is dianostic software for my car.

might have to use kubuntu as im still waiting for gutsy to load.......
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: pup on Jan 29, 2009, 23:19:14
gave up on ubuntu installing xubuntu 8.10 from text based installer....
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: sebt on Feb 01, 2009, 16:03:37
It depends on a few things, but the *buntu distros are a pretty good start for newbies.

For most new converts the question isn't "which distro is easy" but "which distro picks up all my hardware". I say that because most general use distros - openSUSE, Fedora and *buntu - are all easy to install and, except for some differences in package management, easy to manage too. But it's not much fun for a newbie, for example, to get their networking going if the distro doesn't pick it up during install.

The "killer feature" of *buntu is probably wubi, which gives windows users the opportunity to get their feet wet without any reconfiguration of their hard drives / partitions. This installs Linux into a virtual filesystem that's stored as a big file inside your windows filesystem. Safe, easy and just a small performance hit.

The biggest differences between the "general user" distros are choices of modules and versions included and the software used for system and package management (package management being the "add/remove programs" system within a linux distro). Ubuntu uses .deb packages (since it is based on Debian) managed by the package manager "apt", where Suse uses .rpm packages, managed by YAST.

I find openSUSE the most complete and feature rich distro out there. The DVD comes with just about everything that any type of Linux user, from beginner to expert, could want. As a seasoned Linux user and programmer I also like their choices and configuration, appreciate the time-saver that is YAST, and like the nice touches they put into polishing the front end. The latest 11.1 release is close to the bleeding edge regarding included package versions, and generally Suse can be endlessly upgraded (I started with 9 which has been stepwise upgraded to 11.1).

Have fun with Linux!

Seb :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 01, 2009, 17:46:58
I'm still waiting for Wubi to support RAID 0 so I can give Ubuntu another try. It's too complicated for me to setup on RAID 0 myself (I've tried several times, unsuccessfully!).
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 01, 2009, 18:01:52
RAID 0 is a bad idea in my book. ;)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: pup on Feb 01, 2009, 19:54:02
well ive put xbunutu on the lappy, to be honest it struggles, i definelty need more memory (only 90meg at the moment) i was suprised how slow it is considering xp pro was on it before and that seemed to run okish.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 01, 2009, 21:03:14
Quote from: Rik on Feb 01, 2009, 18:01:52
RAID 0 is a bad idea in my book. ;)

I know it is, you told me that a year ago but I took no notice. ;)

I'd rather RAID 0+1, but I don't want 4 disks. I'd got Memeo AutoBackup effectively mirroring my data in real-time onto a backup drive, so I'm fine (I hope!). :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: davej99 on Feb 02, 2009, 10:13:54
RAID 0 seems to come into its own on high performance systems.  There is a trend to dual RAID 0 drives to unlock the full potential of for example Core i7 and high end processors. The downside is reliability, but as working discs with higher level RAID NAS, RAID 0 has its place, for say HD video editing or serious gaming.

But I am just repeating press comments as I search for a decent laptop, where I can see no advantage in very large slow hard drives, which need copious and reliable backup. For this I am looking at a cheap pre-owned tower with several RAID drives running Linux server. That looks like less than £100. But would appreciate a critique of my less than informed ramblings.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 10:18:39
I don't knock the benefits of RAID 0, Dave, just the data security. I would go for 0+1 myself, especially with the price of drives these days.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: davej99 on Feb 02, 2009, 10:20:16
0+1 ?
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 10:23:17
It's a striped set (RAID 0) in a mirrored set set (RAID 1). So, you get the performance benefits of a striped set with the security of a mirrored set.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 10:23:57
Or the best of all worlds. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 10:44:09
My case can't fit 4 HDs anyway, so I couldn't do it. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 10:45:09
Time for a new case then, Seb. ;)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 10:46:03
Time for a Mac. ;)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 10:54:46
Or that. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: davej99 on Feb 02, 2009, 11:05:54
Thanks for the comments on RAID 0+1, which is new to me. You are right drives are cheap.

I wonder though if it is better to have RAID 0, on my laptop, and RAID 1 on my NAS, providing a high performance working drive and completely separate backup/storage/server hardware. The thing I like about RAID 1 is the ability to remove and secure a single drive for physical backup and slot in another. Also wonder if it is better to split four drives between two systems. The notion is that you need to lose two systems as opposes to one. Not sure how you recover using just the discs in RAID 0+1, as opposed to slotting a drive in a caddy.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 11:14:18
There may be laptops using RAID, Dave, but I've not come across one. Most use just a single drive. In theory, with 0+1, if you get a failure, you replace the failed drive and the system rebuilds it. I've never had to put that to the test though.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: davej99 on Feb 02, 2009, 11:39:03
Rik, the laptop I am looking at from D*** has a dual RAID 0 drive to match the T9500 processor and I think that will become more popular until solid state becomes affordable. Lets face it we are all still using glorified Winchesters.

As an off topic (do edit) - a Scots wag speaking about the house or Lords recently commented on "sic a parcel of robes in a Nation!"
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 11:42:08
Quote from: davej99 on Feb 02, 2009, 11:39:03
As an off topic (do edit) - a Scots wag speaking about the house or Lords recently commented on "sic a parcel of robes in a Nation!"

Now that is real wit. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 12:15:53
Now you've got me thinking about RAID 0+1, Rik. I only have 2 x 250GB hard drives, and they must be cheap as chips now. It's a shame a physically can't fit them in my case...
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 12:24:19
Could you 'sling' them anywhere in the case?
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 12:26:13
Nope, it's seriously tight...
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 12:35:21
Bigger case, then. You can always use it as a Linux server when you go Mac... :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Glenn on Feb 02, 2009, 12:40:17
Put them in an external case?
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 12:45:26
Don't really want a bigger case - I built a SFF computer for that reason.

I could put them in an external enclosure, but it's a bit of a messy solution to me.

http://www.sebby.me.uk/pc/ultimatepc/
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 12:47:40
I do the exact opposite, go for a big box with plenty of room for expansion. I have four HDs fitted, but could add another couple if needed.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Glenn on Feb 02, 2009, 12:48:57
This from Mashie (I used to work with him) would suit you http://www.mashie.org/casemods/udat1.html
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 12:49:32
Neat.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 12:51:51
Quote from: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 12:47:40
I do the exact opposite, go for a big box with plenty of room for expansion. I have four HDs fitted, but could add another couple if needed.

Space is a bit tight where the computer is sitting, which is why I wanted a SFF. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 12:55:07
When we moved here, I just took over the second largest bedroom for the computers, then put a bench right down one side. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 12:57:08
That's the way to do it. ;)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 13:00:44
When we come to sell, people might find it a bit off putting. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 13:01:00
So don't sell. :D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 13:08:13
No plans for the time being - until I can't manage the stairs, anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 13:09:17
There's always stair lifts... >:D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 13:13:23
Our stairs dog-leg. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Glenn on Feb 02, 2009, 13:14:28
they go around corners
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 13:17:10
I'll mention it to Sue. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Glenn on Feb 02, 2009, 13:21:05
http://www.stannahstairlifts.co.uk/en/is-your-staircase-straight-or-curved.html
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 13:24:48
We'd be a 5, Glenn. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 15:42:24
That'll probably be the most expensive!
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 15:47:28
Bound to be, Seb. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Steve on Feb 02, 2009, 15:52:36
I like the case Sebby, You could dump the internal CD\DVD that then looks like you may have enough room for 2 more drives. An external DVD can then be plugged in when you need it.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: esh on Feb 02, 2009, 17:23:47
I'm using software implemented RAID 5 using 3x500GB drives on this workstation. If anyone needs pointers, give a shout. It's pretty much the speed of RAID 0 reading at least, and I can pull out any one of the three drives and it'll still work.

Linux 2.6.27.4 here on a 8 processor box.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 17:26:35
That's the other way to go, of course, and it's a pretty good route.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: esh on Feb 02, 2009, 17:28:57
RAID 0+1 arrays with Parallel ATA cables is a nightmare, hence RAID 5 ;)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 17:30:27
I'd be inclined to go SCSI for a RAID.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: esh on Feb 02, 2009, 17:44:04
The serial attached kind I assume (SAS). Old SCSI is on the way out.

In this case I want the reliability and capacity -- hence SATA/PATA drives are just fine. I don't need the access times of the high ~15K RPM drives.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 17:45:13
Very few people do, I suspect.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: esh on Feb 02, 2009, 17:46:50
I also save something like £500  :laugh:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 17:50:03
Not to be sneezed at. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 18:32:53
Quote from: stevethegas on Feb 02, 2009, 15:52:36
I like the case Sebby, You could dump the internal CD\DVD that then looks like you may have enough room for 2 more drives. An external DVD can then be plugged in when you need it.

That's an idea... I think I have one free HD bay and I could get an adaptor for the free 5.25" bay. I just wonder if it's worth it as I am planning on getting a Mac at some point.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 18:36:04
Think of it as a challenge. ;)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 18:36:28
A challenge to control myself from spending!
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 18:37:11
More of a challenge to spend. It's either that or the Donald Russell order. ;D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 18:40:25
:eek4:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 18:42:01
I could point you at an Eizo, if you really want me to.  >:D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 18:44:52
:back:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 18:52:08
I won't bite. ;D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: davej99 on Feb 02, 2009, 19:01:02
Quote from: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 13:08:13
No plans for the time being - until I can't manage the stairs, anyway. ;)

Beware chairlifts!

Click and view the gif.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 21:43:42
It looks fun! ;D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 03, 2009, 09:43:23
Quote from: davej99 on Feb 02, 2009, 19:01:02
Beware chairlifts!

Click and view the gif.

:rofl: Wonderful. :karmic:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Colin Burns on Feb 03, 2009, 12:06:02
Quote from: Sebby on Feb 02, 2009, 12:15:53
Now you've got me thinking about RAID 0+1, Rik. I only have 2 x 250GB hard drives, and they must be cheap as chips now. It's a shame a physically can't fit them in my case...

use the empty bay for the dvd rom drive unless you've filled it


Quote from: Rik on Feb 02, 2009, 12:47:40
I do the exact opposite, go for a big box with plenty of room for expansion. I have four HDs fitted, but could add another couple if needed.

yea I'm with you on the big case my problem is getting a power supply to power everything as I'm running

4 hard drives with a 1TB on the way soon
2 DVD ROM drives
and geforce 8800 oc2 over clocked that wants to be plugged in aswell

during the winter i miss the P4 i had as it used to heat my bedroom literlay
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 03, 2009, 12:10:20
I reckon the computer is worth 1.5C of added heat. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Colin Burns on Feb 03, 2009, 17:40:40
lol my P4 processor used to run in the 80c range  but since the Core 2 duo its like a icy fridge dannis the witness
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 03, 2009, 17:42:44
I shall check with her. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Danni on Feb 03, 2009, 21:06:06
It is in comparison. His old machine was warmer than my radiators.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 04, 2009, 10:13:12
The wonderful smell of roasting processors. :)
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Glenn on Feb 04, 2009, 11:07:12
Then run on smoke you know, let it out and they don't work anymore :whistle:
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 04, 2009, 11:09:46
That's where I've been going wrong all these years. ;D
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: esh on Feb 04, 2009, 12:24:20
When I was working at CfA in Boston on an embedded electronics server, the project leader told me as I was sitting down in front of the board with serial number #1, "whatever you do, don't let the magic smoke out". It took me ages to figure out what he was on about.
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 04, 2009, 12:26:44
 ;D

I've been trying to get it in...

Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Glenn on Feb 04, 2009, 16:01:58
You need to make it into a solid first
Title: Re: Linux
Post by: Rik on Feb 04, 2009, 16:05:34
I have a mediocre second if that would do. ;)