Blizzard threatened with court action over allegedly misleading packaging

[pctech]

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/07/24/blizzard_faces_court_for_misleading_diablo_3_fans/

[zappaDPJ]

They are under fire from almost every direction in relation to Diablo III. Their Korean offices were raided and they were forced to offer refunds to Korean players. The game sold extremely well but it's been a disaster for them in more ways than one.

[pctech]

People dont want to be tied to online, why don't companies understand this?

[Niall]

Because they're desperately trying to combat piracy. Blizzard may be very poor when it comes to customer service, but if you watch the end credits there are thousands of people they have to pay.

One criticism I'd level at them, knowing how popular their games are, is that they deliberately use too few servers knowing that people will eventually lose interest then the problem soves itself. This is my opinion but why else would they have the same exact problem on EVERY online game release? It really annoys me, especially in the case of D3 as the people that got online and used exploits pre patch and when others like me and my mates were working finally logged in, there were a lot of player with vast amounts of in game gold, with auction house prices so high you would literally have to spend years playing to get that amount of gold. It's now got to the point when I only log in to try and sell the decent items I've found as I don't have enough storage space :-/ It's really poorly thought out. The real money auction house is a complete failure too.

[Simon]

Never heard of them.  I thought the thread was about the weather! 

[Technical Ben]

People dont want to be tied to online, why don't companies understand this?

They only hear "money, money, money, money" as they go about the day?

PS, sorry Niall, IMO it has nothing to do with piracy. There are enough out there making a living without worrying about it to prove it's a non-issue (or at least not requiring this level of defense). Working at the bank, I learnt it's impossible to prevent all crime. It's actually counter productive to try! You would spend so much money on safes you would have nothing left to pay the staff. It's about finding a working environment or changing the business if needed. Granted, online only is a change, but it's one people need to know about or one there needs to be demand for.

I don't think there is the demand in this case. It does not have enough online features to make it worthwhile to most. Secondly, it has as much effect as a chocolate bicycle.

How many millions of copies sold? That was before people knew it had online requirements. How many of the purchases were tech savvy to know how the games DRM worked? How many bought it on the first week (before a DRM crack comes out for most software)? So, within the first week, do you think Blizzard paid it's staff and covered it's costs? If so, why sabotage your own product for the rest of the time?

The only reason most people can see, is it ties people into the online store. Which again, is up to them. It's their product. However, people don't want to pay for that, and unlike physical objects, usually only find out after purchase. So a refund is ok in this instance IMO. However, if this was a subscription only MMO, well, your only paying for how much you use, so if you don't use it, you don't pay.

It's trying to have their cake and eat it that gets me riled up.   

[gizmo71]

t's trying to have their cake and eat it that gets me riled up.

Mmmm, caaaaake.

[Technical Ben]

Lol.
As an example, the amount of Indy developers who sign up exclusive deals with DRM safe and walled garden distribution systems, that then complain they made no money is hilarious*. Compared to the amount that practically give away their software and end up well off. Granted it does not always happen, but those that follow the demand and need, instead of throwing toys out of the pram, tend to do well. Look at the free virus scanning and assistance companies. People bend over backwards to donate to them in thanks for the help they provide.

[zappaDPJ]

I can probably give some insight into Diablo

People dont want to be tied to online, why don't companies understand this?

That is certainly true, many Diablo III players have asked repeatedly for an off-line mode but it won't happen. However, there are far more reasons for this other than the piracy issue which in fact isn't an issue because the game cannot be played without a legitimate key registered to your Battlenet account. Even the gold farmers who run literally hundreds of game sessions concurrently buy their copies. The main reason for the on-line requirement is the auction house, particularly the real money auction house (RMAH). The RMAH is also the main point of contention for players because it has a massive impact on how the game plays. For example, most players know that Blizzard patched in higher percentage drop rates for high item level, rare items. What they didn't know at the time, although a few are now starting to realise, is that Blizzard also continually tweak the the random role rates on item stats. So while you will get more rare items drop of a higher item level, the stats roll on those items has been retarded making most high level items worthless. They do this to ensure the auction houses maintain a stable economy and they do that to ensure that they maintain a predictable income from the RMAH of which they take 15% from every transaction.

[pctech]

Never understood people paying real hard earned for virtual items either.

[Niall]

If you have disposable income, you spend it on game stuff. It's the next level for paying for DLC (downloaded content) to "enhance your game", as EA put it. (enhance your calm, John Spartan )

I've bought some stuff on the RMAH, but only because I've actually sold about £20 worth of items on there, at about £2.49 each. The trouble you have now is the user base is dropping, the players at the top can't sell their high end items as people are getting better items as they progress, and people like me can't progress.

As an example, my Monk has over 30,000 health and 24,000 damage. I've set it up so I get a boost to armour from my dexterity. This has resulted in me being able to easily kill normal mobs in Inferno act 1. As soon as I get chained elites, I'm dead in under 5 seconds. Fight a boss? Forget about it, I'll be dead in less than that. There is literally no way I can play inferno without getting massive upgrades to my gear, which I can't get because I don't have gear good enough to enter areas that actually drop it. I did, the other week while I was off, get a 2 handed sword that does 1200 damage. There are no stats on it, other than damage and I cannot sell it as the game is geared so you HAVE TO use items that get a boost from, or give a boost to your armour/weapon/stats. So, the only way I can play inferno is if I group with my mate, who typically works pretty much the opposite hours as me (my other 4 mates that played have now given up due to this retarded gaming system), so I get a boost from his warrior/barbarian character. Then if we get the right type of elite, we can kill it. Even the odd nasty chained elite.

You simply cannot play this game at inferno level as a monk, without getting the ultimate items, which blizzard has geared the game in such a way as to stop you from doing this unless you pay for it. Your options: gold farmers, risking getting your account hacked or blizzard banning your account, or spending money on the auction house.

THIS is how Blizzard work. They don't give a sh*t about you as they already have your money from buying the game. Now they want more money as it's not a pay per play game, so they make sure you can't play it without paying for items, as they get £1 from every sale.

[pctech]

Yes indeed as the subscription model is collapsing and they'd argue they have to do something to earn income to keep the servers running (most of the data centres make most of their money from adding a fair margin on the cost of power supplied to the racks)

[Niall]

I completely understand their need to make a feasible business structure, but seriously, support your user base, don't shaft them. You're not the tory party ffs.

[pctech]

Indeed and Activision have been around for years.

I'm afraid I think this is the way things will go if games go free to play.

[Niall]

Yeah, and I really don't mind. If they create a game that benefits from DLC, added items you can buy that allows you to play a game in a different way, I'm all for it. If you have a core game that can be played in multiple ways already and you lose nothing from not buying extras, then it's all roses. A great system that supports the community and the company.

I just wish that, in Diablo3s case, they rebalance the game, make inferno easier or at least do something about the cost of items. Cap them or something, it's just unfair how they're stopping me from playing my game to completion.

[Technical Ben]

Lets just say it does not enhance anything. Changing a stat in notepad to a sword (and charging for it) is not DLC in my books. 

[pctech]

Might be advisaeable to complain to them or go and demand your money back.

[Technical Ben]

I'd not buy it. But I do feel sorry for those who do. I can understand charging for a whole map or character. Those things take time to make. I could argue that the price is too high, but it's a free market, we can all make those decisions.

It's the charging for a 100+ sword over a 50+ sword that boggles my mind. As it's a single variable in a program to change. It's what you do as a kid with your toys for free. Companies don't charge you to push a toy car 10 spaces over 5.

Especialy so when I can change the colour of an image in Gimp for free. So an entire skin? Charge for it. A different colour (AKA Guild Wars inks), not for me.

[zappaDPJ]

I'd not buy it. But I do feel sorry for those who do. I can understand charging for a whole map or character. Those things take time to make. I could argue that the price is too high, but it's a free market, we can all make those decisions.

It's the charging for a 100+ sword over a 50+ sword that boggles my mind. As it's a single variable in a program to change. It's what you do as a kid with your toys for free. Companies don't charge you to push a toy car 10 spaces over 5.

Especialy so when I can change the colour of an image in Gimp for free. So an entire skin? Charge for it. A different colour (AKA Guild Wars inks), not for me.

That's not really how it works with Diablo III assuming that Blizzard is not gaming the system in terms of the actual items placed on the real money auction house. What you are paying for is something that a player might well have invested a huge amount of playing time to find. Good items are lottery figures rare i.e. you probably won't find one in 100 hours played. If a good item drops then the player has a choice of using the item (if it's appropriate to them) or selling it on one of the auction houses for in-game currency or real world currency. Blizzard doesn't create the items and put them up for sale, the game creates the items from random rolls and the player has a choice of what they want to do with them.

There is a lot of debate as to how sensible it is to buy 'pixels' for cash but at the end of of the day it's up to the player whether they choose to or not. I run a huge multinational gaming community and Diablo III is one of the games played by some of our members. I play it myself. I only know one player that's used the RMAH and he did it to complete the game. Personally I wouldn't use it, I completed the game a couple of weeks ago and did it through trading items with other players, avoiding the RMAH entirely although I did use the in-game currency based AH.

[Niall]

Lets just say it does not enhance anything. Changing a stat in notepad to a sword (and charging for it) is not DLC in my books. 

It's a good job that's not what we were talking about then Blizzard don't charge you anything, they get a cut of whatever you sell on the RMAH. That's user to user sales that they get a cut of. Simple as that, and it's not game breaking, but what is are the people that got to the end game first pre patch and have a vastly superior character and items, with access to items no one else does, selling items at a price (gold or real money) that is beyond a joke. If Blizzard were to release items and charge for them, then it'd be different, but they don't do that.


I'm just extremely annoyed with the fact that I cannot complete the game single player, with my monk. If the barbarian scales, I should have no problem. The only thing is, everyone I know that got into act 2 of inferno all got a lucky drop that sold for millions on the auction house, allowing them to buy items which in turn allowed them to continue to grind the act in the hope of getting more decent items to replace what they have. I haven't been so lucky, I've got semi decent gear, but cannot progress to the next level due to not having the money and not having the time or inclination to spend another 116 hours hoping for a random drop.

Seriously, what do they expect people with next to no time to do? Play it an hour a week for the next 20 years? Morons, honestly.

You can understand them needing to keep it going in the hope for RMAH sales, but making it so you have to get better items you can't access is pathetic. Clearly they thought everyone would sell on the AH, but in reality you see items priced way beyond what a normal gamer will ever be able to afford (in gold) on the normal ingame AH. My mate puts a lot of hours into this game as he really enjoys it, and has the mind set to constantly try defeating near impossible tasks, and as he has sold a few high priced items, can afford the repair bills. Again, I can't, so I'm knackered from every angle.

Basically I have a game I can play to act 1 of inferno on all characters, then have to give up as I will never be able to complete it.

[zappaDPJ]

Basically I have a game I can play to act 1 of inferno on all characters, then have to give up as I will never be able to complete it.

The problem is twofold. The difficulty level as you've found out is an exponential curve. It starts at a ridiculously easy pace and maintains an easy pace until Inferno at which point it ramps up to stupid levels. If you think Act II is hard, Act III is in a different league again and so on. They should have flattened the curve so that each Act was a steady progression in difficulty. At least that way players would have had some expectation that steady gearing would lead to steady progression instead of hitting the brick wall.

The other problem is there is simply not enough content and the game has no long term appeal. No doubt they tried to eek it out by making it all but impossible to complete unless you grind for weeks or use the RMAH. For a game that was in development for over 10 years, it defies belief that it was released with so little content and with so many issues. How much of that is down to Blizzard and how much is down to Activision is an unknown but either way, someone really dropped the ball which is a shame because Blizzard had a pretty good reputation in the gaming world until Diablo III came along.

[Technical Ben]

It's a good job that's not what we were talking about then Blizzard don't charge you anything, they get a cut of whatever you sell on the RMAH. ...

Huh? How is that different. If Blizzard do or do not (they do, as they program the RNG of the stats) make the notepad change in the code, or the user does, it's still charging for a single byte of data on the pc.

It's like charging for an extra naught in naughts and crosses. You can draw your own for free! If someone devises a DRM version of naughts and crosses where the crosses are kept server side, I'd still not pay to have a cross + 200 damage. 

As said, if it's a paid for service (based on usage or time) then I'm happy with it. But Blizzard are charging for the game as well.

I just cannot understand why someone would pay £200 or so for a sword that does +300 damage or whatever, it's a stat noted in a game. Most people use to use Game Genies for this, or just edit an ini/stat file.
If it's charging for actual content, like pets in WOW, or whatever that's ok. It's still open for arguments on how much it's worth, but it has some worth.

[Niall]

It's completely different. It's an in game item that is a part of the game. Users decide whether or not to sell it. Blizzard have no say in your decision where to sell it. You can sell it on the gold auction house or the real money auction house. It makes no difference to the mechanic of the game.

Common sense dictates that only an idiot would pay for something that when used helps complete a game to never be played again. That being said, if someone enjoys a game, has disposable income, who are we to say what they can spend their money on? It's just like buying a football. Eventually it'll be useless, but you still buy it because you enjoy playing football.

[Technical Ben]

Yep. I'd still not pay someone £20 for changing a value in notepad (30 seconds work) from "dmg 50" to "dmg 500". I don't care if it's a player or Blizzard. Oh, the fact it's a dice roll for drops, as suppose to typing it on a keyboard, again I'd not pay for it.

If the user created a skin, 3d mesh and/or other stuff? Yep, I'd pay for that. A change of stats? Nope.

It's the equivalent of trying to sell naughts in a game of naughts and crosses. The naughts are free. Only here Blizzard have made extremely complicated looking naughts.

[Niall]

It's the equivalent of trying to sell naughts in a game of naughts and crosses. The naughts are free. Only here Blizzard have made extremely complicated looking naughts.

Again, no it's not. The items are already in game. Blizzard are not selling ANYTHING. They are items in a game already. Your analogy is comparable to having characters in a game with no weapons, and having to buy the weapons or you can't play.

In Diablo3 they do NOTHING like that at all. The game is the game. Everything you need is already contained within. Items drop as a random game drop, and the stats are totally random. No one charges you anything to get the items at all, and in every other respect it's exactly the same as every other RPG, with the exception of how many items you can carry and how many team mates you have.

You sound like you're quoting the escapist video review, mixed in with comments from people that haven't played the game.

[Technical Ben]

Wait, in D3 you can sell and buy swords and shields, right? (Again, I don't care if the players or Blizzard are selling, players get the money, Blizzard get a cut.)
Swords and shields are already in game. So in a game of naughts and crosses, where I already purchased the markers (a marker version, not a drawn one), why would I pay to swap with other players? I'd swap freely, or in game (like Monopoly), but for nothing would I play monopoly with real money.

I do really understand the entire concept of the game system, economic system and player system here. It's subtle in how they do it (but blindingly desperate), however it's clear as to what they are doing.

It's close to being a casino crossed with a pretend (as it's only made up by Blizzard's RND generators) futures market. Oh, it's defiantly got a real game under the hood. But it's integrated with a content system generated via RND drops (not content generators) and sales system based on these "virtual" number generators. They hope people hit the barriers that encourage purchasing/sales. Unlike normal games (say solitaire) where you hit a barrier and try again or whatever, here you hit the barrier and can purchase progression (would you purchase extra Aces to be dealt in solitaire?).

Remember, Blizzard gets paid per sale/purchase.

[Niall]

I'm not sure if you're just being deliberately argumentative, or you actually don't understand how the game works.

You can finish the game without buying anything, with gold or otherwise, it's just a massive time investment. You save your gold, you can buy the items from the gold auction house. If you wish, you can buy items off the real money auction house (and yes blizzard get £1 from each sale). That is all a part of the game. You can even play the game and only use the items you yourself get from killing mobs, and/or buy from the NPC traders in the game.

Sure you CAN buy the items from an auction house, and that idea has been there since WoW, what 8 years ago? People ALWAYS buy gold, and items. There is a MASSIVE illegal trade in this across ALL games that have in game trading, and there always will be. For people like me, I will buy an item off the auction house with in game gold as it's a part of the game and helps you progress quicker, as I don't want to spend 1000s of hours on a game these days, when 8 years ago I might have done. Some people have disposable income and will buy off other users in the game, that's their choice. Once again, and I hope for the final time I will say Blizzard themselves are not forcing you, asking you, insisting you, begging you, stopping you playing if you don't buy items off the real money auction house. In fact if you look at it, it is actually dying now. A lot of people have actually stopped playing it until a patch comes out to make inferno easier. For the last month the same items are on the auction house(s) and are not selling at all.

The point I'm making here is that you seem to think, or are at least saying that you have to buy these items to finish the game. You do not, BUT you WILL have to invest considerable time, unless you're very lucky and get really good items dropping early on. Blizzard do NOT add items in game. They are completely 100% random drops within certain areas, with 100% random stats on it.

[Technical Ben]

No, I am not saying you have to buy the items. I'm saying "why would anyone want to buy the items"? I also don't understand why anyone would want to buy "gold" for WOW. Well, if they do want to buy such things, I blame the game or the players. I'd prefer to side with the players here and blame the game.

It's a game of snakes and ladders in essence (progression based on RND rolls, right?). That's ok, I like these types of games too! However, I would not pay to "advance" in snakes and ladders by "having a dice with + 100". Even if it's purchased from another player. Why would I pay money to have a dice that rolls quicker? I already own the board game and have total control over where to place the counters. Likewise, I'd not pay to have "a sword with +100" either. Not from the players, not from the board company.

It's also worth noting that I'd not need to pay anyone to move my counter in snakes and ladders, I can do it myself. The same goes for sword stats (It's not DLC they are selling here), they only require a change in notepad from "value=50" to "value=150". It's even worse that these changes are artificially limited by a cash auction house (you are only allowed to change the stat if you pay to!).

Blizzard are not forcing anyone, but they are hiding the fact that in Snakes and Ladders the player has absolute power to move the counter anywhere they like. If someone artificially charges you to move the counter, then what? Would you personally pay another player to be allowed to move a counter "double spaces" in Snakes and Ladders? I'd guess not. I'd not do it either. Why though are people making an exception to move quicker in D3? They already purchased the game (have the full board of Snakes and Ladders). The progression is hard-coded (rules of Snakes and ladders says you can only move as many spaces as the dice rolls). However in the board game no one confiscates your game if you decide to "have a quick game with double rolls", or "start from square 50".

Or to put it another way: Would you "pay for other players" cards when playing a card game with friends? If your hand is no good, it's part of the game. Using real money to buy cards off them from their hand is completely crazy in my eyes. With Blizzard each player already has a full pack of cards (you paid £30 for it) and they all get dealt a hand from that pack. Yes players get different hands, but that's part of the game. I understand players swapping cards, or "monopoly money", but not using real money. I've never seen someone use real money to swap a card in a card game, likewise I'm taken back seeing people use real money to swap "a sword" which equates to a Ace of Spades.

Sorry if I seem to be arguing for something else or if it's a personal subject.

PS, finally again I ask why pay to avoid "the massive time investment" when the likes of save game swaps and cheat codes (for legitimate progression speed up) has existed since forever for free. To force a requirement to pay or to remove the option for these things is a failure in my eyes. Yes, prevent them in a multiplayer game, but why charge for them?

[Niall]

I dunno, it seems that you just don't understand the concept of the game. You pay your money to buy the game which includes the auction house. You're not cheating (which oddly you seem to indicate you think is fine for a game normally, which baffles me), you're creating an in game economy. Where it falls flat on its face however is by not having caps implemented, so people charge ridiculous amounts of gold for an item. This is where bots and farmers come into it, selling gold online illegally. Still it's all fun sometimes.

[Technical Ben]

Never mind. The fact it gets banned in some countries under gambling laws backs up my point. I see no problem with the game, but they should be honest and up front with what the customer is buying into.

It's not cheating either. Fast forwarding a game or movie is not cheating of any kind. I just cannot understand charging to fast forward. Playing a "quick game of footy" is not cheating either. Valve manages a trade/auction system without causing these problems, but that is a different system (no player cash swaps!).

You need to ask yourself the question "why do people pay for virtual gold". It is exactly the same as swapping real money for monopoly money (from players or publishers). I've never seen a person fall for that one with the board game. But sadly, as soon as you put a PC between the player and the board game company, people seem to forget what is really going on. In D3, the progression and player economy is no different to monopoly. Both provide the entire game at purchase. Both have multilayer elements that have rules. Both use "in game currency" and allow player trading and auctioning! Both use dice or RND selection of player items. What are you buying except pretend money, you already own the entire board game and houses?

[Niall]

Seriously, please tell me why you keep saying " I just cannot understand charging to fast forward". What on earth are you talking about? I've gone over this, what, three times? YOU DO NOT PAY ANYTHING TO PROGRESS FASTER. AT ALL. EVER. AT ANY POINT. Blizzard DO NOT CHARGE YOU ANYTHING. EVER. AT ANY POINT.

You really choose some bad analogies. Buying monopoly money would completely destroy the game of monopoly, as you have a set amount in that which is one of the main points of the game (to take it all from your opponents, in order to win). I really don't think you have an actual valid point and just don't like the game (or more likely, Blizzard). Nothing you've said makes any sense at all.

The only thing I don't like that we agree on is the real money auction house. Personally I think it should be banned full stop. While most people control their urges, some may spend money they can't afford trying to progress in a game, rather than playing it properly, or say they have the best item. I'm 100% against that, and that is why it's banned in I think one country (South Korea I think). In game auction house is fine as it's a part of the game, and nothing more. If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple as that, and there's nothing more to say on the subject. It's that black and white.

[Technical Ben]

Yes, I agree with the real money auction house, swapping real money for in game items (which are generated via a RND, thus similar to a casino here) between players is where I see the problem. That's what I see as breaking the moral standing of Blizzard or the players. I'll let the players off, as the casino setup is hidden deep in many layers of gameplay, but underneath it's there. As you said, paying real money for monopoly money would break the game of monopoly. It doesn't break poker though, or roulette. However, those games are advertised as such.

I don't dislike dungeon crawlers or Blizzard (I suspect SC2 is a very good RTS). I detest companies trying to hook, line and sinker customers. With either pyramid schemes or empty points schemes. Or in this case, false scarcity to push up the desire to trade in game items for real cash (either buying or selling). At least with Pokemon cards they were physical cards, only slightly better in my view, but here they are easily manipulated spreadsheet values being traded.

Is the auction house the same as paying for in game money? Yes, not directly, but it is. As soon as they offer money for in game items, it becomes swapping real cash for monopoly cash. With the Valve games, the trade is one way only (you can buy in game items, but not sell them). So trading in game for real money tends not to exist in those games. It still creates problems, but tends to limit players from either doing free swaps in game (like you do in monopoly as part of the game) or purchase straight from the publisher (as you do in Pokemon or TF2 or WH:20k).

It's both that a company is trying to pull a "Zynga" and make a casino hidden behind a "game" with virtual limits, virtual progression restriction and virtual stat boosters. Those things might be a "game" but only as far as a roulette wheel is, and it is dishonest to not label it as such. Perhaps D3 is more complicated, but it blends player cash trading with RND drops. One or the other and it's just a random game or a cash shop. With both, it's a cash casino.

[Niall]

So what you're saying is you're fine with Valve creating an illegal trading structure (people sell items for games/gifts,etc all the time) outside of the game, but when Blizzard try to combat that by creating a legal way and attempt to cash in, it's suddenly wrong?

[Technical Ben]

I said Valve have at least stepped it down, but not succeeded in preventing it. I don't agree with what Valve did, but it's less than Blizzard did here. However, what prey tell can you buy for TF2 on Ebay? The purchase price or trade price for hats is so low that I'm guessing it's pennies. I most of these cash systems verge on gambling. I don't think I said it's wrong to bring out a poker game, or add poker to D3 or WOW or TF2. It's wrong to not be honest with your customers though! At least Valve are honest and say "we do not allow cash trades". The rest they do is not so honest (time limited and random rolls for content does not build a healthy level of dependency on the game).

Another company taking a similar stand to Valve is the Eve Online company. They don't do in game cash trading. They do for "subscriptions" trading, but again that's one way trades. It keeps the cash there to pay to play, not pay to gamble. But if they did wish to put a cash trading shop in TF2 or Eve Online, I'd not care, unless they fail to label it as a "risk" and a "gamble". Because as with D3, I would be concerned for my friends and family who fail to see past the complicated gameplay elements and that a casino hides behind it all. Then the risk of loosing cash is much greater. At least if you know it's a gamble, you try not to overspend.

The best thing to do is remove the need or desire to gold farm. There is no gold farming desire in the older games. There is no desire to gold farm in the older server based multiplayer games. TF2 would have zero risk of an illegal trading structure if the content was not limited. Eve Online or WOW would have no "gold farming" with a single player or private server model.

Cashing in on other peoples addiction to "gameplay grind", instead of just earning a decent wage making games, is abhorrent to me. Whether the trade is done by players own trading (Ebaying game gold) or assisted by the publisher (in game cash auctions/trades).

So what you're saying is you're fine with Valve creating an illegal trading structure (people sell items for games/gifts,etc all the time) outside of the game, but when Blizzard try to combat that by creating a legal way and attempt to cash in, it's suddenly wrong?

That is misquoting me. I said Valve prevent swapping of game content for cash. How is that creating an illegal trading structure anymore than banning guns creates illegal shootings? So I am fine with Valve preventing gambling in their game, as they are required to by law. If the content was not random, and is not cash swappable, it's not gambling. I've no idea what loophole allows Blizzard to get around that, some countries don't allow it (thus the ban) others do for now.

[Niall]

Where is this gambling that you seem to have made up to support your argument? At no point in the game or outside the game, do you gamble in any way, shape or form.

Also, regarding the illegal trading, the steam forums were rife with it until valve started warning and then banning people, and deleting threads related to it.

Like it or not, if you add collectibles into a game, you encourage external underhanded ways.


Let's face it, you're not a fan of the game or company (I'm no fan of blizzard either as they create a game and seemingly thumb their noses at customers from there on out). Nothing you're saying regarding The game holds any water. Cashing in on people's addiction, for one, is ludicrous. They have seen what goes on and to make it safer, added the RMAH for which they take £1. If you chose not to buy on there and use the in game AH they get nothing. That is not cashing in on people's addiction, charging monthly subscriptions is doing that, if you consider enjoying a game an addiction that is, which in itself is a very flimsy arguement.

The main issue people have with Blizzard is the drop rate in D3 is far too low. That is done to keep a high amount of players in game, so they can use that stat to pull in investors. There was a new article out the other day saying WoW has lost 1.1 million players, but Blizzard pointed out there were more now playing D3. Personally I think they're deluding themselves as its more likely the case that a vast majority of D3 players are WoW players. People playing D3 are leaving now due to the low drop rate and extreme difficulty. To me this only reinforces my opinion they are trying to keep investors happy, as their version can't possibly be true.

[Technical Ben]

Exactly, they have absolute control over the drop rate, thus the auction house economy.
If Blizzard released this game with zero cash economy (game points only) then I'd have no squabbles. Really, it's nothing to do with Blizzard or the genre.

The in game auction house is restricted by the amount of in game gold you get. Which is restricted by the programmers (the progression limit). So, they can try to lengthen and stretch out the time needed to get a sword or whatever in game. However, paying cash you can get it instantly. Now, translate that to any other game. Say football. Want more goals? Well, normally you have to play, but you can pay to get early goals. How about poker? Well, normally you have to get a good hand, but now you can buy Aces.

In single player games it does not matter if you get an advantage (it's single player) but at the same time, there is no value to buying extra goals or Aces. Your the only one player, so can just skip ahead (say in solitaire or minesweeper).

Only if you add restricted collectibles into a game do you encourage underhanded ways. Achievements in Steam = in game points only. So, if someone swaps a game save for achievements, nothing happens. Can someone charge and sell these on Ebay? No, because the distribution is unlimited, no one can charge for them. Same goes for old Mario or Sonic saves if you want to "get all the stars" or "get all the rings" or something. You can just swap saves. But, if you make those in game items restricted or cash exchangeable, you add the risk. So, to me both Valve and Blizzard can remove the risk, but for the chance of profit, they do not.

So they can remove the risk, but it requires them to sell a game and give the players the control or give the players full content with the purchase. They do not want to do this, and this causes the out of game trading. Adding an in game auction house does not solve this problem, it only moves it from Ebay to the games version.

You need to ask, "why is someone willing to pay to progress faster in a game"? I do not know of any physical games where this is allowed (rowing? Football? Tennis?). I know of very few paper based games it is allowed (not allowed in cards, monopoly, scrabble). Only the likes of WH:40k and Pokemon are cash trades ok. At least there we have physical items that have some worth. What if all the WH:40k and Pokemon cards were photocopies, then what are they worth? Here a game (not just D3, there are others on the market too, like TF2) has presented a stat booster and charge for it.

Just to make it totally clear, I am against paying to "progress faster" in a digital game. Why? Because it's digital, the speed of progression is a single command, something that is values at such a low price. Something like "speed =10" or "attack = 100". It's like trying to charge for the ability to turn pages in a digital book faster! 

PS, I just remembered, even in WH:40k there is no rule against a player making an entire army out of their own makings. No purchase nessisary as long as you keep to the rule book. You cannot do that here. I ask why? The answer would be very interesting.

Perhaps a clearer example of what I'm talking about. http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/131615-diablo-3-the-blizzard-sweatshop and http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Beware-Diablo-3-RMAH-Gamer-Loses-149-Auction-House-Bug-44100.html

Oh, and I don't prefer the other game more, they are just examples of "having no underground trading or in game cash sales". For example Borderlands 1 and the Borderlands 2 game out shortly have ZERO chance of underground trading. It's Single player, multiplayer and PVP. If someone cheats, they win nothing. It's the same as cheating in a game of football by shouting "offside" every couple of seconds to give yourself a penalty. Totally pointless and if you try it no one plays with you anymore. Just try it in Borderlands, hack infinite gold or all the items, it makes no difference. The value is in playing the game, not having a +100 stat. The value is in swapping with friends, not selling a virtual item.

[Niall]

I'm quite looking forward to Borderlands 2. I played the 1st one recently. I only uninstalled it as I had other games I wanted to play, and limited space on my SSD.

As for that first link you've provided, did a 10 year old write that? It feels like it should have lolh4xwtf written in as punctuation.

I'll say it a final time, then I'm done with this discussion as you don't want to believe what's happening in the game, for some baffling reason. The auction houses are there to sell items. If you don't want to spend money on an item, you do not have to. The RMAH has items on there for weeks at a time, and you WILL see them appear again later. Not because someone has bought them and put them back (granted that will happen too, as I've seen 1 item I sold on there reappear) but because they want silly money for them, and people are not willing to pay that. You will get people that buy off the RMAH, it's unavoidable as it exists. I personally have no problem in a company doing this, when there is a trade going on illegally. Why would you not want to cash in on it if people are already doing it. It's been going on for a decade in games that I play. Will you find me doing it? No, I'll play the game properly, and use the ingame auction house when I see an item appropriately priced.

Also, to underline my point, my mate that I mentioned earlier (I think in this thread) has some very high end stuff dropping as he plays this game only (as in no others) when his missus is at work and he has nothing else to do. He has listed vastly superior gear on the RMAH for weeks and has not sold it. He is even keeping an eye out for stuff for me so I can try to finish the game! Anyway, the items he found that won't sell on the RMAH, he transferred to the gold one, and sold the items in a few hours. They haven't reappeared yet, going on 3 weeks and are not on the RMAH either. Genuine players are buying things for 1-2m gold, or 5-10 if it's a top end legendary item. Anything over that, is being put on by idiots showing off an item that don't want to sell it, e.g you'll see fist weapons on for 159000000 gold, then as soon as the weekend arrives it's gone. Obviously someone that works during the week and plays at the weekend, using those items. Also, the gold farmers will have items for 60million gold+ and these are the items you'll see over and over.

The trouble with the system is that there is no cap. If there was a cap on item prices then you would have a game with a better reputation, and people would have a better chance of getting the items. As it is, with no cap, people are putting items on the AH (NOT the RMAH) at a ludicrous price, assuming that everyone will buy these items. These farmers, which are invariable the Chinese farmers, and mainly idiots that love the game and think everyone else thinks the same way will assume that people pay the prices and continue to attempt to sell. You see items being relisted every two days for about a week, then they'll vanish and appear a week or two later again.

If you actually play the game, go and look at both auction houses now. All you'll see are people charging too much for gold items, and people thinking they'll get £250 for a sword (very rare you see this now), and items for £20 that are basically end game items. Some idiots thinking they'll cash in, will have poor items on there. This is giving the false impression that people are actually selling items on there, which for the vast majority of the time they are not. How do I know this? My character has 3 tabs of high end items that I have tried to sell for 4 weeks, as I'm no longer playing the game I just log in to sell items on both AH's in the hope they'll patch the game and then I'll go back to it. In the 4 weeks, I have not sold a single item on the RMAH, and this is items set at £2.50 - £5; I never set the price higher, no matter what as I don't want to be responsible for someone spending money they can't afford on a game item, and at that price it's generally money that you've made from selling to farmers anyway. I would LOVE to see the stats on how many genuine players use it. As for the gold auction house, in 4 weeks, I've sold 4 rings, relisting items every two days.

People are not being fleeced. These news reports, if you can even call them that, as they seem to have been written by an idiot, are so clueless it's amazing. They seem to have the mind set of a fanatical D3 player that is under the impression that everyone thinks as they do. They even make the mistake of underlining this opinion by stating that when you stop playing a game you'll sell all your items on the auction house. If you're fed up enough to stop playing the game, you're not going to log in every two weeks for eternity to sell your items. You stop playing if you stop playing. Honestly, that's like a Daily Mail article.

Oh and as usual, I'm aware that my posts sound aggressive when I'm discussing something. They're not said in that context, so apologies if they are seeming that way, it's just my way of writing (I get moaned at in work for it too )

And finally, something amusing http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19134764