Quote from: Danni on Apr 13, 2008, 10:35:46
Which is no good on Linux, as Internet Explorer is a Windows program.
It can be installed, but it's a real pain and most people wouldn't want to bother.
not having used it but Linux sounds a real pain to me.
most software etc. are windies compatible so why use something else and give yourself grief.
Dangerjunkie said he could use windies if needed so if its just for a speed test why not just wait until BT pull their finger out and get it fixed.......it happens doesnt it, things go wrong now and then.
I tried it and found it a pain, and I like technical things. That said, it is getting more and more user friendly. For example, when I first tried Linux about 3 years ago, getting the wireless on my notebook working was an absolute nightmare. Now, it works out the box.
so just like lots of things then, when more people want it and use it, it will become more user friendly and better......a bit like other operating systems
Exactly. :)
Quote from: Baz on Apr 13, 2008, 12:35:26
not having used it but Linux sounds a real pain to me.
most software etc. are windies compatible so why use something else and give yourself grief.
Dangerjunkie said he could use windies if needed so if its just for a speed test why not just wait until BT pull their finger out and get it fixed.......it happens doesnt it, things go wrong now and then.
I am nearly completely Linux here (I am yelling at EA to make The Sims 2 work on Linux, then I'll be able to get rid of Windows altogether). Every program I was using in Windows (except The Sims 2) either works in Linux or has a decent (and sometimes better) equivilant. Internet Explorer I tried not to use even on Windows, preferring Firefox (which works great on Linux, though I normally use Konqueror). MS Office has been replaced with OpenOffice.org (again, something I did on Windows as well). Graphics is provided by the GIMP, Flash and Java work fine, the IRC programs I find are better than the Windows ones, and I have plenty of choice.
I feel that in most cases, a recent distro will be more user friendly than Windows. A couple of years ago (so this was before a lot of recent improvements) me and my ex-partner were both doing a reinstall of our operating systems- him Windows XP, me Kubuntu. As I had a live CD, I was able to use the internet while installation was taking place. All my hardware was detected out of the box, though I did have to install the Nvidia binary blob as extra (using the package manager, so was just a couple of clicks). Most of the software I wanted was already installed, so there were only a couple of programs I needed to get (again, from the package manager). It took about 40 minutes in total to get it installed and working exactly how I like it. My ex partner was still installing XP at that point, and it took him most of the day to get all the drivers, programs installed, and other things.
I wouldn't advise people who are PC Gamers to go fully Linux, as gaming support isn't great. For those who are just wanting internet access or to do basic things, I think it's worth it for not having to worry about viruses, spyware or malware (and most package managers have antivirus programs if you're worried).
sounds great when you mention it all Danni, will have to have a look at it someday and see what its like.
do you feel its virus free because its not as popular as windoze or is it more secure
Mixture of both. It is really difficult for a Linux virus to do any major damage, as it has to be run as root (equivilant to administrator) and most Linux users only use root when needed, such as when installing programs. On Ubuntu, you'll be asked to type in your password if this is needed, and so long as you don't type it in when you're not expecting it, you should be okay. On the installing programs front, most software you need will be available in the official repositories for the major distros, so it's rare you have to download software from third party source, also preventing the installation of bad software (which can contain malware).
On the other front, I was reading an old Linux magazine, and it basically said it's just not profitable for virus writers to write for Linux, partially because it's simply not as popular, but also because it's much more difficult to do so without whatever exploit being used being patched by someone in the community. The advantage of open source here means that the hackers can fix the exploits they find, which they can't do in Windows. Virus writing for Windows is a well paying passtime- it just isn't for Linux.
Having spent a good part of my working life "grepping" and "iostating" my way through UNIX the Grand Daddy of you Linux toys I simply cannot forgive it. :no: Yes it was a very powerful Operating System albeit not that quick being essentially file based and it did serve me well but the thought of going back to it makes me recoil - anyone use the Vi editor? :eek4:
OK I know the Linux version has a look alike Windows Desktop that is very pretty - it has to having used the predecessors, CDE (Common Destop Environment or something like that) from Sun and VUE (Visual User Environment) from HP. I have seen the Unbuntu one but underneath it lurking must be a whole host of the command line instruction I just grew to love. Do you know which "Shell" your own version runs in c-shell or k-shell maybe the Bourne Shell or some new one altogether?
Anyone tried using a floppy drive in UNIX? Even CD drives needed a mount point in the root directory.
Yes I did the HP Administrator training and yes I could use the beast but wanting to use it at home that is another matter entirely. I hear a chorus saying but Linux is not UNIX but like I said above I cannot forgive it for its roots but everyone to their own devices. :)
I await the expected torrent of protests! ;)
You can hide behind me, Les - there's plenty of room. ;)
I take it you don't use Macs either, Les? :P
I have used Vi editor, but for quick things Nano is easier. I use Bourne Again Shell (Bash) as that is the default, though others are available. I do like the command line (and on one of my laptops I don't use the gui) as I find for many things it is faster... though maybe not forum browsing (though I'd done it, using w3m).
Remember: Windows is based on the command line DOS :P
Quote from: Rik on Apr 14, 2008, 18:03:11
You can hide behind me, Les - there's plenty of room. ;)
Never been one to hide thanks just the same Rik. You don't put up a post like that one if you can't take the flak. :duck:
Quote from: Danni on Apr 14, 2008, 18:42:41
I take it you don't use Macs either, Les? :P
You've got the measure of me Danni. ;D
Quote from: Danni on Apr 14, 2008, 18:42:41I have used Vi editor
Yes but did you enjoy it?
Quote from: Danni on Apr 14, 2008, 18:42:41I use Bourne Again Shell
I think K pretty much = Bourne from what I remember but it is a year or four since we finally waived bye bye to UNIX and the years take there toll on my memory of the details.
Quote from: Danni on Apr 14, 2008, 18:42:41I do like the command line
Good for you it certainly is all powerful. You can almost do with it what others put in shell scripts when you become accomplished (Shell script is UNIX for Batch file for anyone not acquainted with the jargon)
Quote from: Danni on Apr 14, 2008, 18:42:41(and on one of my laptops I don't use the gui)
Masochist!
Quote from: Danni on Apr 14, 2008, 18:42:41Remember: Windows is based on the command line DOS :P
Ah it's all in the eye of the beholder having found my way to DOS from UNIX it was like a breath of fresh air. Probably NRDOS before MSDOS but not a lot to choose between them. What you should be equating is CDE (or VUE) with Windows 3.1 and there simply was no contest in those days. :)
Now what was that IBM OS for PC's called.................. ???
Quote from: Danni on Apr 14, 2008, 18:42:41
Remember: Windows is based on the command line DOS :P
which bill gates either got out of a skip or bought it off of someone else
Whilst we're on that topic, has anyone seen the film Pirates of Silicon Valley (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/)? A lecturer told us about it at university. It makes for quite a funny hour and half of viewing. :P
Quote from: LesD on Apr 14, 2008, 18:01:27
Having spent a good part of my working life "grepping" and "iostating" my way through UNIX the Grand Daddy of you Linux toys I simply cannot forgive it. :no: Yes it was a very powerful Operating System albeit not that quick being essentially file based and it did serve me well but the thought of going back to it makes me recoil - anyone use the Vi editor? :eek4:
Things have certainly changed in the last 3 years. Linux is nowhere near as scary as Unix used to be. Yes I do use vi for some things (particularly if I'm logging into a machine remotely over the net or if the desktop is unavailable for some reason.) For most text editing I use a program called Kate which is a very nice graphical editor that, if I click the type of the file, will lay it out correctly and colour code it automatically to make it easier to read and work on.
Modern Linux distributions have a thing called a "package manager" that takes care of installing most software and keeping it up to date. I open the manager, hit search, type some keywords to describe the software I'm looking for (from a list of literally thousands of free programs), select the one I want, click "install" then "apply." The software is downloaded and installed automatically for me. The package manager then keeps it updated as new versions come out. The great thing is the update mechanism works for all installed packages regardless of who wrote them and not just for the OS so I don't need to keep going and looking to see if there's a new version of program X out. Hardware support is great too. Most common hardware is supported out of the box: You just plug it in and it works, no need to mess about downloading drivers, getting unsigned driver warnings, having it destabilize your machine or having to look for updates (the package manager does that again.)
I perceive I get a lot less "grief" from Linux than Windows. I install stuff, it works and keeps on working, letting me get on with being productive rather than spending hours on maintenance. I can't remember the last time I had a machine fail so badly I needed to reinstall the whole thing. There are no viable viruses or malware for it so I don't have to waste money and system performance on antivirus applications and time on cleaning up infections. I'm responsible for about a dozen Windows boxes at my customer's site (all with fully patched XP Pro and name-you-know antivirus, behind a corporate firewall.) They're used to do research on some quite unpleasant sites for the media. These machines are forever getting infected when some piece of scumware manages to elevate an ordinary user into an administrator and pillage the box. On average I spend one day a week cleaning them. I just don't need that hassle on my own network.
As Danni stated the other reason there is no malware is that Linux is written to be secure by default rather than every user being an administrator. If I run something that needs management access to the machine I get asked for my password to confirm I approve. If I ever get something like an ecard in my email that asks for administrator access I'm sure as heck not going to say yes!
For my business software being "open source" is key. It's a bit like a restaurant: I may not be a chef but if I can look in the kitchen I feel better about it. With open source software I can make changes or fix problems if I am able (or ask or pay someone to do so if I can't.) I know will still be able to get things fixed even if the person that wrote it stops developing it. I also get access to many developers which there is no way I could do with a commercial product, being a small business. One of my customers has tens of thousands of Windows licenses and they can't get access to the programmers that write Windows. I wouldn't buy a car which had the bonnet locked down with a key that only a dealer could open. Why would I do the same thing with software?
For me the Windows registry is a source of angst. I don't like the design concept of wrapping most of the configuration data for most of my software up into a binary blob with the OS configuration. If it gets corrupt the result is unpredictable and may lead to mass breakages. Most Linux programs have their settings stored in text files that can be fixed with the Linux equivalent of notepad if they get broken. If one file gets trashed only that program (and anything that depends on it) are likely to break.
The argument about Windows getting attacked because it is popular and "it would be that bad on Linux if more people used it" doesn't hold water completely. Let's take Apache, the world's most popular web server, as an example. It runs on Linux/BSB/Unix and I would be amazed if you haven't used a website running on Apache today. Far more copies of Apache are in use than Microsoft IIS but Apache's security record is exemplary, far better than IIS.
QuoteOK I know the Linux version has a look alike Windows Desktop that is very pretty - it has to having used the predecessors, CDE (Common Destop Environment or something like that) from Sun and VUE (Visual User Environment) from HP. I have seen the Unbuntu one but underneath it lurking must be a whole host of the command line instruction I just grew to love. Do you know which "Shell" your own version runs in c-shell or k-shell maybe the Bourne Shell or some new one altogether?
That's one of the greatest strengths of it. Modern distributions have graphical tools for almost everything and the average user needs the command line about as much as the average Windows user needs the command prompt. The command line tools are there if you are comfortable with them and feel the need for them. There's rarely any compulsion to use the command line. It's up to you to decide whether you are comfortable with it and want to use it for any particular task or whether you prefer the graphical tools. I don't use the command line for most things but I feel better knowing the system hasn't taken it away from me if I need it.
QuoteAnyone tried using a floppy drive in UNIX? Even CD drives needed a mount point in the root directory.
Yes I did the HP Administrator training and yes I could use the beast but wanting to use it at home that is another matter entirely. I hear a chorus saying but Linux is not UNIX but like I said above I cannot forgive it for its roots but everyone to their own devices. :)
Ermm... yes... I plugged a USB floppy drive in, and put a disc in the slot. The automounter took care of it and about 4 seconds later a little icon of a floppy disc with the correct name appeared on my desktop. I clicked on it and there were my files. Did what I needed to do then closed the window and hit "safely remove." It was easy; I nether knew or cared where the directory had been created to mount it. Things have moved on.
Quote
I await the expected torrent of protests! ;)
I hope you don't take what I've written here as a protest.
When people talk about Linux being harder to get working than Windows I think these comments are often not quite fair. They neglect the fact that the person has used Windows for some time. The also often don't compare like with like: They compare a special Windows restore disc from the machine maker that has all the right drivers and tweaks for that hardware with a general Linux install disc. If you gave someone that had never seen Windows or Linux a generic, shop-bought Windows disc without the tweaks and a generic Linux disc I think they would find both of similar difficulty. With either OS I would always recommend having someone with some experience over for a few beers to sit next to you when you did your first machine. If someone wants to give it a go I'm always happy to be that person :)
I'm not saying Windows is bad or that people shouldn't use it. Neither am I saying that Linux is perfect for everyone. I believe it is, however, the right choice for me and for my business.
Cheers,
Paul.
Very interesting post Paul :thumb:
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on Apr 15, 2008, 00:30:16
Things have certainly changed in the last 3 years.
I hope you don't take what I've written here as a protest.
No problem its very interesting Paul and great to hear how things have moved on even if they have been a long time coming. :thumb:
Remember the thrust of what I said was about the "Grand Daddy" UNIX and that I did say it had served me well. My mischief was aimed at provoking a debate and maybe it has succeeded because what I did not say was that despite the unfriendliness of the command line interface to the uninitiated, once a decent application was up and running with a good graphical user interface (the GUI if you like) all the warts and blisters went a way. I was an advocate of the ability UNIX had in a "time sharing" business environment to support multiple users in away that very often they were unaware of each others activities and demands on system resources.
Ten or more years ago each HP UNIX box cost the Company in the order of £17K and we had half a dozen of them so we are not comparing like with like when talking about home use or even the small business user.
Now the "Packager Manager" you mention does sound the business but it is making a :wimp: of you!
Now tell me just what is wrong with installing a patch (update) with a command like this one:
swinstall -x autoreboot=true x match_target=true -s /home/PATCHING/PHSS_23025.depot
cp -p PHSS_23025.text /var/adm/sw/patch
Bread and butter when I did a bit of root administration. 8)
Just for a nostalgic look back here are one or two more gems from my archives:
End Task:
ps -ef | grep process
The result gives the process ID N. e.g. 537
kill 537 or more often than not if it refused to die kill -9 537
Open a CD:
Put your CD in the drawer.
Login as root (System Administrator)
Determine the device file, typically /dev/dsk/c1t3d0
Create the mount point with, mkdir /cdrom
Mount the CD drive with, mount -r /dev/dsk/c1t3d0 /cdrom
Access the content with, cd /cdrom and use ls to list and see the directory/file structure.
When done in order to get you CD out of the drawer (otherwise you could not have it, short of a reboot) use umount /cdrom (strictly umount /dev/dsk/c1t3d0 /cdrom)
OK shell scripts could be created with administrator privileges on the crucial bits so that mere users could do this but the administrator had to make it all available, great fun. ;)
System backup:
fbackup -f /dev/rmt/c3t5d0BEST -i~/dirname
scheduled with cron but we won't go there!
Zip up a file or directory:
tar cvf filename.tar
compress filename.tar
uuencode filename.Z filename.Z > filename.Z.encode
Unzip a file or directory:
uudecode filename.Z.encode
uncompress filename.Z
tar xvf filename.tar
Anyone reminiscing with me might also recall the joys of chmod and chown and oh yes before I forget there was a CDE alternative to Vi called dtpad that was very much like DOS edit or even Notepad for that matter but not in the early days I hasten to add.
I am pleased to hear that things have moved on and as I said everyone to his own devices and of course Linux is free! :)
I must keep this in mind for when I retire. With the Economy going the way it is my pension may not be up to much! :eek4:
I have to chmod and chown still. Oh, and on one of the servers I pretend to manage for some reason using chown resets all the permissions to 640, so I have chmod everything once that's done. Still haven't tracked down why, since it works fine on the other server (running the same version of CentOS...).
Some of those commands are familiar still, as I use them as it's faster than pointing and clicking. I don't understand all of them though :P
I remember having to install Ndiswrapper to use the windows drivers for a PCMCIA wireless card on an old laptop.
You have to edit the Makefile in the Kernel-source directory.
Once edited you action that change, with.....
Code:
cp /boot/config-[yourkernelversion] /usr/src/linux/.config && cd /usr/src/linux && make mrproper && make oldconfig && make
Takes about half an hour to run.
Sometimes use chmod, never used chown, they're my files and i'm keeping them ;D
Wouldn't be without my tar -zxvf command, package managers are good but not always the latest versions.
Quote from: Danni on Apr 15, 2008, 12:19:54
for some reason using chown resets all the permissions to 640, so I have chmod everything once that's done. Still haven't tracked down why
I am rusty so I don't know if this will be of any help or not but nothing ventured as they say so: :)
chmod changes persissions & execute rights and chown changes ownership as I am sure you know but why altering ownership changes permissions on one of you servers and not the other I am not sure.
Are your group permissions the same on both servers?
chmod takes the form, owner group other as read (r) write (w) execute (x) for each and the precedence is important but I am struggling to recall the priority. Maybe under permissions you have a group setting that over-rides the owner you set on the one machine necessitating the permissions to be reset each time you change ownership.
chmod 640 filename
is the same as
own grp other
chmod -rw- r-- --- filename
So the owner can read and write, the group that owner is in can only read and others cannot even see the object.
Where for example:
chmod 777 filename -rwx rwx rwx
chmod 666 filename -rw- rw- rw-
chmod 555 filename -r-x r-x r-x
chmod 444 filename -r-- r-- r--
Something in my memory is stirring that says that it can be better to take ownership if you can rather than being given it but I cannot justify such ramblings at this time and this may be version specific. ???
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 13:15:58
Sometimes use chmod, never used chown, they're my files and i'm keeping them ;D
Do you always run as the Root Administrator then Ted?
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 13:15:58You have to edit the Makefile in the Kernel-source directory.
Once edited you action that change, with.....
Code:
cp /boot/config-[yourkernelversion] /usr/src/linux/.config && cd /usr/src/linux && make mrproper && make oldconfig && make
Takes about half an hour to run.
Ah yes now you remind me I too remember the joys of rebuilding the Kernel. This is one more reason that I am pleased our Real Time Digital Simulator application at work has been ported to the Windows environment, still server based I hasten to add and accomplished using Java by the provider.
How long does it take to install Linux typically that is? I have recollections of getting on for a morning to install HPUX 10.20 then another half a day "patching" it into a workable state for our purposes before the applications were added that is. I guess this time scale is a thing of the past too. Does the file system still have to be subdivided into "Volumes"? This was always fun when a bit of resizing your first best guess was required! Then there were the UPS's to configure and get working because since the OS was so file orientated a mains failure crash simply could not be tolerated. I would be surprised if this is much different if the essence of UNIX has been maintained through into Linux but I am open to being corrected.
Only ever run as root when absolutely required.
I only use chmod to change permissions of a file to make it executable i.e. chmod a+x jre-6u<version>-linux-i586.bin
As far as i understand chown is used to change ownership of a file.
Can't see why that means i run as root 24/7?
i can only say from my experience its around 30-45 mins to install a Linux distro. This would obviously depend on the amount of software chosen to install and the speed of your system.
On the other hand you can run a Linux live Disk with no installation at all and save any data to removable media, a memory stick for instance, you don't even need a hard disk installed in the machine.
The typical Linux install uses three partitions, swap. /(root) and home. you can do this manually or let the installer do it for you.
I personally don't use ups but can also say from experience that if after lets say a power failure, when the system is restarted an abnormal shutdown is detected and any problems sorted out during the boot sequence. This has happened more than a few times for me and i've never had a problem.
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 20:40:46
Only ever run as root when absolutely required.
I am sure that's the best way.
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 20:40:46As far as i understand chown is used to change ownership of a file.
Can't see why that means i run as root 24/7?
Do you give everyone rwx permissions then so that when you are logged in as a User you can do everything?
I guess on a home machine this is OK, much as I do for the couple of us who use our two XP machines on my home net. I was still wrapped up in the work environment where 20 to 30 users of varying abilities were let loose on the workstations!
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 20:40:46
i can only say from my experience its around 30-45 mins to install a Linux distro. This would obviously depend on the amount of software chosen to install and the speed of your system.
Sure and quite different to what I was used to.
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 20:40:46On the other hand you can run a Linux live Disk with no installation at all and save any data to removable media, a memory stick for instance, you don't even need a hard disk installed in the machine.
I didn't know that, intriguing!
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 20:40:46The typical Linux install uses three partitions, swap. /(root) and home. you can do this manually or let the installer do it for you.
Those three sound familiar where I guess Partitions equate to Volumes.
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 20:40:46I personally don't use ups but can also say from experience that if after lets say a power failure, when the system is restarted an abnormal shutdown is detected and any problems sorted out during the boot sequence. This has happened more than a few times for me and i've never had a problem.
I am pleased to hear that you have not fallen foul of mains failure crashes damaging your system. Despite the UPS's we used I have known crashes to require automatic "Repairs" on reboot. What you quickly find out is that such a "Repair" means retrieving what bits of a file it can and then sticking an end of file (EOF) marker on the end whether its found it all or not! After the worst of these events that I recall it was a give up, recreate the volumes and reinstall the lot from scratch but certainly not every time!
Thanks for the information, it's interesting for me know how things have progressed.
Les
I hear you say, Rusty and behind the times but you have probably forgotten more than i will ever know. I'm only a humble self taught Linux enthusiast :blush: Still learning and happy to do so.
What i would find fascinating is for you to install and run a modern Linux distro and tell us what you think, "Old school Unix" compared to "Modern Linux Distribution"
If you do, post back and let us know your thoughts, hopefully you'd be impressed with the advances. If you weren't, that would still be of interest (at least to me).
Aside: Can I point out to anyone tempted to try Linux that these things are things you can do not things you need to be able to do and almost everything you will need to do can be done with your mouse instead of having to delve deep into the innards.
I'd second the motion from Ted for a comparison of then and now.
As someone said, if you visit http://www.ubuntu.com and download the latest version of the desktop CD (Gutsy) you can put the disc in and start the machine to run it from the disc without installing it or making any changes to your hard drive. It will be really slow as everything is running off the CD but you will at least get to see what it's like before deciding whether you want to install it or not. No money changes hands so all you will have invested in it is 700MB of your quota to download the CD, a blank disc and some time. If you're short on download quota I can even make the CD for you and mail it to you or you can order a free disc from the website.
Installing won't take Windows away (unless you tell it to.)If you do decide to install the standard behaviour is to shrink your Windows drive and install in the space created. A menu will then be installed so you can decide every time you turn the machine on whether you want Linux or Windows.
A thing that often needs explaining is what people mean by "free software." Free software refers to freedom (to legally be able use the sofware for any purpose you please, to be able to modify it and to be able to pass on copies under the same terms as you received it.) This is often referred to as "free as in speech." Many free programs are distributed for no money ("free as in beer".) A number of commercial software companies seem happy to expoloit this confusion to perpetrate the myth that a business can't make a profit or a living out of free software. Canonical (the company behind Ubuntu) and Red Hat (the company behind Fedora) for example both have releases of their software that are free (as in beer) but make a decent living offering paid-for support to companies and individuals that want to buy it. You don't need to buy support though unless you want the confidence of having a big company behind you. I've never had a problem getting help on the net for nothing.
Have fun,
Paul.
Quote from: Ted on Apr 15, 2008, 21:50:32
What i would find fascinating is for you to install and run a modern Linux distro and tell us what you think, "Old school Unix" compared to "Modern Linux Distribution"
Ah the gauntlet is down, now there's a challenge. ;)
It will have to be when I have more free time, roll on retirement and on another machine - no dual boots for me. I do have one, a 1.4 GHz AMD Athlon Thunderbird machine with about a Gig of RAM in it that was semi-retired when it started consuming CMOS batteries at an unacceptable rate. That sort of spec. should be adequate I guess what do you reckon? I used to refer to it as my tinkering machine so maybe I could solder a couple of U2's to the CMOS rails and give it a go but it won't be this week my current project is more RFI filters for wall-wart PSU noisy beast that they are! :)
Quote from: LesD on Apr 16, 2008, 12:14:22
Ah the gauntlet is down, now there's a challenge. ;)
It honestly wasn't meant to sound like a challenge, more of an evaluation of Unix/Linux evolution ;D
If you can sort the CMOS problem that machine sounds ideal.
I'm sure others and certainly me, would be genuinely interested in your views, good or bad.
A note to allPaul made a good point in his last post in so much as, no knowledge of the command line is required to either install or use modern Linux distributions. If all you want to do is point and click, that's fine. if you want to go further you can, the choice is yours and in my opinion that's a good thing.
Quote from: Ted on Apr 16, 2008, 14:30:12
It honestly wasn't meant to sound like a challenge, more of an evaluation of Unix/Linux evolution ;D
No worries, taken all in good spirit! :)
Quote from: Ted on Apr 16, 2008, 14:30:12
If you can sort the CMOS problem that machine sounds ideal.
I have just been and had a look it's going to need a HDD as well and the U2 batteries!
How big do you reckon I would need? I'm a dab hand on eBay so that should not be too much of an issue.
There was a DVD Rom sitting on top of the case that I had also completely forgotten about so I am in with a chance.
Quote from: Ted on Apr 16, 2008, 14:30:12I'm sure others and certainly me, would be genuinely interested in your views, good or bad.
It takes my fancy too so as I said it is not going to be straight away but it is becoming plan!
Quote from: Ted on Apr 16, 2008, 14:30:12If all you want to do is point and click, that's fine. ........................in my opinion that's a good thing.
I second that, well for home use and I will add that I doubt Linux will replace UNIX in the immediate future for corporate applications.
I just installed an Ubuntu machine with Gnome and KDE desktop. I've fun some quite heavy programs so there is some data around. I think the OS takes up about 5GB. Plus you need some swap... (generally twice the amount of RAM you have) The disc is a runnable system and that fits in 700MB.
I'd say that 20GB should be a big enough drive to have a pretty good play.
Anybody else have a size in mind?
Cheers,
Paul.
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on Apr 16, 2008, 19:00:03
Anybody else have a size in mind?
Me! :) (and I don't mean the sort I see those dodgy emails about before anyone asks)! ;D
I have just bought this on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320240498298
I guess I am committed one way ;) or another now!
When I got my new vista machine last year I installed Ubuntu on my
old win 98 machine. It has given it a new lease of life.
Apart from the 3d desktop effects it runs happily on a PIII 700,
512mb RAM, 32Meg 3d card - It took a little time to get it all running as I like it
but I prefere it to my windows machine and with the next release I
will dual boot my laptop.
If you get a CD either download or order a free one from the ubuntu
website you can boot and run straight from the disc before installing.
Also the support forums are excellent for sorting out any problems.
Cheers
Mark
The 40 GB Seagate HDD arrived today and looks immaculate. :)
I just hope its functionality matches its looks!
I will keep you posted.
Come on you guys and gal, who have encouraged me down this path to Linux where are you? ;)
I have the "new" 40 GB HDD installed in the case with my Jetway MoBo and its AMD Athlon 1.4 GHz Thunderbird processor. This is the MoBo that consumes CMOS batteries like there is no tomorrow! :rant2:
(As and aside does anyone know how to fix this problem? I am a dab hand with a soldering iron when I know what to do. :) )
Currently I am using number 2 machine as I have the screen for number 1 machine hooked up to the video card in the Jetway Mobo and having booted from a W'98 Startup floppy disk, I have it running Scandisk (remember that) on my "new" HDD and it said it could take 7 hours! :eek4:
Half an hour down and so far there have been no problems but time will tell.
Since the HDD was seen OK by my W'98 floppy install it must have a FAT format at the moment. Being an NTFS format man I was wondering, before I convert it to NTFS, if I have to leave it as FAT for Linux.
So now I need guidance.
I know that I have to download the Linux CD contents so I am going to look up the link you gave me earlier and get that underway soon. When I have this CD is it bootable?
Will it format and install Linux to an empty FAT format C: from scratch or will it need to overwrite a Windows OS?
All advice will be gratefully accepted but lets not have too many saying , Les forgoodness sake stick XP on it and be done with it :no: because I am steadfastly resisting this at the moment. ;)
Linux has its own filesystems. You may be able to install it to a FAT (32 I hope- you've got no chance on old FAT) partition but I certainly wouldn't recommend it. The installation will allow you to repartition the drive (if I wasn't dual booting I'd have three partitions- 2 ext3 (one for root, one for home) and 1 swap. As it is on my main laptop I have 2 NTFS partitions as well, one for Windows and one for sharing files between Windows and Linux, as Linux can read/write to NTFS without problem these days but Windows cannot understand ext3 yet. On my desktop it's even more complex, as I have three harddrives in there...). It can automatically do this for you, or you can do it manually. Both are simple.
If you're downloading the CD, it will be an iso. You will need to use a program such as Nero to burn the iso to the CD so that it is bootable. Unfortunately I don't know of any other Windows programs for doing this, but there's bound to be a freeware program out there that will do this. If you don't have Nero let me know and I'll go hunt for you.
If you download live install CD such as Ubuntu you'll get to try it out before install. It also means if you've got simple network hardware (such as most ethernet ports) you can be on the internet while it's installing, something I always find cool :)
If you have any more questions, I'll answer them if I can :)
Beat me to it Danni :thumb:
I hit post, got the warning, had a look and it was you, Yours is a bit better than mine ;D
Hi Danni,
Thanks for the prompt reply.
I can format the drive FAT, FAT32 or NTFS so that's not a problem but I guess the only way it can have an "ext3" format is from the Linux install CD.
I have only one physical Hard Drive so it will have to be partitioned. I can relate root, home and swap partitions to similar UNIX Volumes that I know and love. I do wonder that if I don't create at least one FAT or NTFS partition if there would be any way back without doing a low level format of the HDD. What do you know on this score? ???
When I can get my number 1 machine back I will set about downloading the CD. Strictly this one, my number 2 machine, is the one that "she who must be obeyed" believes is hers and I can see me being kicked off it before too long. :rant2:
I want the Scandisk to complete so that I can post Feedback for the seller up on eBay.
His service was great - I bought the HDD Wednesday evening - the package was delivered Friday.
I screwed the HDD and my DVDRom drive in the case yesterday and booted up today so I don't want to keep the seller waiting too much longer.
Is there anything else other than Nero? ???
Burning an iso image with Nero is not a problem for me but thanks for the offer to look for an alternative. By the way is there a Nero for Linux? ;)
There is a LAN card in the Jetway Mobo but I will see how I get on stand alone for starters. Maybe when the times comes it wll seem a natural progression but my old instincts are still very much alive! :)
Any luck with Chown and Chmod on the second of your servers?
Okay :)
If you decide you hate Linux and want to go back to Windows, both the Windows XP and Windows Vista discs can delete the Linux partitions and reformat with NTFS, so there's no problem there (I've done it before- my main laptop was all Ubuntu at one point, but I reformatted it with Vista so Currys would repair it). I have the seperate /home partition so I don't lose all my data if I change distros or want to reinstall for any reason, but this isn't necessary.
ImgBurn (http://www.imgburn.com) is meant to burn iso images to disc properly. I liked the program it's based on, so it should be okay. Yes there is a Nero for Linux, but I don't use it- K3B does pretty much everything I want (and it's free).
You'll be fine with installing without net access at first, but you may need to reenable the internet repositories for software and updates afterwards. That can be done in the package manager.
Good luck :)
How about writing a guide to Linux that we could sticky as a FAQ, Danni?
I may give that a shot, Rik. What sort of information would be useful? I find it easier to answer questions than try and think what people would want/need to know by myself.
I was thinking of a step-by-step guide, assuming no prior knowledge other than Windows, with software recommendation for all the common tasks, eg browser, email client, photo-retouching, CD/DVD burning (and playing).
Something which would help anyone who wanted to give Linux a try to have a go with a degree of certainty, eg something between an encyclopaedia and an instruction manual. :)
Okay, I can probably manage that. Can I include a list of open source programs for Windows users as well? :P
Please do. :) :thumb:
Quote from: Danni on Apr 20, 2008, 15:41:15
Okay, I can probably manage that. Can I include a list of open source programs for Windows users as well? :P
As long as you don't mention OpenOffice. :P :out:
Sebby, it will, both for Windows and Linux. It's a decent program, and it improves with each update.
Fair enough. ;D
Wow,
The replies have been coming in while I have been distracted with unscheduled repairs to my youngest daughter's carpet cleaner. Ever had one apart? No well my advice would be don't! Nuff said it is working again now and we even got the kitchen carpet cleaned while she tested it! :)
Sounds promising then Danni I shall most likely go for a Linux only install with no FAT or NTFS partitions.
The 7 hours to Scandisk this 40 GB drive is looking to me to be more like 10 at the present rate of progress. So far its done nearly 550,000 clusters out of 1.22 million so still under half way in 4-1/2 hours. :(
The good new is so far there are no bad clusters! :thumb:
At this rate its looking like next weekend or even the weekend after as my Grandaughter first birthday part is next Saturday leaving the other weekend chores for Sunday. My RFI filters have taken a back seat too! I need to retire but how would I fund all my quirky interests then? A rhetorical question so ignore it! ;)
For now I shall do my CD/DVD burning with Nero in XP Pro. CD/DVD burns in Linux will be strictly experimental for the time being should I get that far.
Another little task I want to address before I close up the case on this potential Linux machine is to fix the CMOS battery problem. I have in mind replacing one or both of the diodes down by the CMOS battery just in case one or the other has gone leaky. A hardware "expert" with a view on this would be appreciated. I have posted elsewhere about this in the past and have received mixed advice about it.
I take it you have not bottomed out you chown - chmod issue yet despite my earlier suggestion to look at the hierarchy of your Group permissions! :)
I reckon with a bit of Googling you could probably come up with the "Idiot's guide to Linux" that Rik has challenged you with. There must be one out there on there already somewhere on the World Wide Web! ;)
While I am waiting for the scandisk to finish I thought I would take a couple of pictures to share with you. :)
Spot the 2700 still on a box on the floor.
The scandisk has now reached 70% and all's well. :thumb:
[attachment deleted by admin]
Not much longer to go. :fingers:
Oh, for a wireless PC, eh, Les? Mine looks like a birds nest at the moment, and the bloody wires aren't long enough to move out the way, not to mention that some of them have to drag across the mobo. :bawl:
Don't worry, you'll get there. :)
lesD what is going on???
a 2700 on its side , on the floor ????? just waiting to catch every stray bit of dust within 100 yards,
come on, get it off the floor and stood up, better ventilation, runs cooler (always a good thing )and less dust
:no: :no:
Just another thought for anyone wanting to try Linux, there's always VMWare or VirtualBox. For VMWare you just need the free player and download one of the ready made appliances. With Ubuntu there's also Wubi which will do an installation within Windows.
I agree with Danni that Live CDs are great for testing out your system first but they can also be a godsend should you need to rescue an installation and there are even tools that can perform basic repairs on Windows partitions.
I'm trying out the new Backtrack3 Live CD which has some great inbuilt tools for security testing and networking in general. It's also a very cool looking kde based distro in it's own right with a number of inbuilt basic applications which can of course be built up using the package manager.
Linux isn't hard it's just a bit different. I would use it more but it's sadly lacking in good genealogy software/support and I really love my Paint Shop Pro...........just can't get my head around GIMP.
Horses for courses as they say.
J.
You'll have to collaborate with Danni on her treatise on Linux, Jane. :)
:eek4:
I don't know about that. I'm no expert, I just like trying to break things experiment with the different systems. Basically I learn the hard way.........it's always the last tweak that breaks the camel's back!
I just learn as I go along (praise be to Google and forums) but I have gathered some good tips along the way.
J
Most of us aren't experts, Jane, but the beauty of forums is that they become greater than the sum of their collected parts. At least, that's my theory. :)
Couldn't agree more especially when the contributions are helpful and supportive even though they may not provide an instant solution. I was looking at a forum recently where it seemed to be the norm for some members to ridicule the 'noobs' -yet they had no answers themselves to what I regarded as very valid questions. Probably a result of massive egos + miniscule brains. Sadly a common combination in some 'fraternities'.
J
Hopefully, we do a bit better at welcoming new members and making them feel part of the family. It's certainly what we aim to achieve.
I've been associated with forums for many years now, and I've learnt from others, and passed on my own knowledge in return. It's one of the great joys of the computing fraternity that help if so freely give. I joined the Adobe forum on Compuserve many years ago, looking for a printer driver for an HP printer which HP themselves couldn't supply. A member in the States wrote one for me over the weekend. You can't ask for more than that. :)
Quote from: jane on Apr 21, 2008, 15:49:03
Couldn't agree more especially when the contributions are helpful and supportive even though they may not provide an instant solution. I was looking at a forum recently where it seemed to be the norm for some members to ridicule the 'noobs' -yet they had no answers themselves to what I regarded as very valid questions. Probably a result of massive egos + miniscule brains. Sadly a common combination in some 'fraternities'.
I hate forums like that, where the knowledgeable ones (who often aren't as knowledgeable as they think) have a chip on their shoulder. You won't find that happening here. :)
Quote from: merlin on Apr 21, 2008, 08:50:13
lesD what is going on???
a 2700 on its side , on the floor ????? just waiting to catch every stray bit of dust within 100 yards,
come on, get it off the floor and stood up, better ventilation, runs cooler (always a good thing )and less dust
:no: :no:
Nuff said! :)
The Netgear DG384 had only been wall mounted (see just above the 2700) a week or three when along came the 2700 less the foot for standing it up. It would not exhaust my skills to make one its just finding the time especially with being challenged over UNIX v Linux on this forum! ;)
I managed to add a third IDC 40 way ribbon cable header to the single way (two headed) ribbon cable I was using yesterday by gingerly removing the end connectors form another single way ribbon and nipping one of them back onto the first single way ribbon in my vice so that now I have the 40 GB HDD on IDE1 and a 16x DVD ROM drive and a 32x CD ROM drive on IDE2. The thing boots up with CD ROM support from my W'98 Startup floppy sweet as you like and can see and read all three IDE drives a treat now with my modified ribbon cable for the optical drives. :thumb: This and a minor repair to the leg of a spare pair of glasses I keep in the garage for the many occasions that I forget to take a pair in there with me is the sum and substance of this evening acheivements not counting washing up etc.
I will get round to sorting out a bit of a shelf/ bracket for my 2700 to put it roughly where the Netgear is but just like IDNet it is sitting there doing the business no trouble at all and with me it is pretty much things that scream at me that get attention! :whistle:
Quote from: LesD on Apr 21, 2008, 22:20:25
it is pretty much things that scream at me that get attention! :whistle:
Same here, Les. :)
Quote from: merlin on Apr 21, 2008, 08:50:13
lesD what is going on???
a 2700 on its side , on the floor ????? just waiting to catch every stray bit of dust within 100 yards,
come on, get it off the floor and stood up, better ventilation, runs cooler (always a good thing )and less dust
:no: :no:
For merlin a picture of my router standing up! ;)
Quote from: LesD on Apr 21, 2008, 22:20:25
I will get round to sorting out a bit of a shelf/ bracket for my 2700 to put it roughly where the Netgear is
Well today with the auspices of my employer in the way of a bit of metal bashing I have completed a small wall hanging shelf for my 2Wire 2700. The wooden brackets would be the better for a splash of aluminium paint but just when I wanted some there was none to be found! :( Ah well a job for another day.
I also came across this today but maybe this is the wrong thread for it.
If so you all powerful Admin types will put me right I am sure. :)
http://www.btbroadbandoffice.com/pdf/BT_Business_Hub_tech_spec.pdf
I don't know if this link has been posted before or not.
I found it when I was looking for dimensions to do my metal bashing! :)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Very nice, Les, a job well done. :thumb:
Hi Guys,
Les, I wouldn't trust scandisk to give me a health indication of a drive. It will test a volume but not the system areas or the drive mechanics. Most modern drives have spare sectors they use to replace bad ones and lie to the machine that the drive is fine so a failing drive can pass a scandisk until it suddenly goes pete tong. Most manufacturers offer a diagnostic tool on their websites that will give the drive a thorough workout, run its internal diagnostics, check the sector replacement statistics and give you a yay or nay. The Seagate tool is called Seatools http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/support/downloads/seatools/
I'd second Danni's vote for k3b for disk burning in KDE. If you are in Gnome the file manager (nautilus) has built-in, basic cd burning capabilities.
Jane, I was in a recent discussion about virtualisaton. Most people seemed to recommend running the machine on Linux with the Windows as the guest OS rather than havign Windows as the main and Linux as the guest. The main reasons given were that it is then easy to roll Windows back to a previous snapshot if it gets infected, that a virus in Windows won't take down the Linux install if it corrupts the OS and that Linux allows multiple IP sub configurations on network interfaces so you can have different IP addresses and also mix IPv4 and IPv6 if you need.
Cheers,
Paul.
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on Apr 23, 2008, 21:53:48
The Seagate tool is called Seatools http://www.seagate.com/www/en-us/support/downloads/seatools/
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the memory nudge. I have in fact used this very utility in the past but had forgotten all about it.
I will take my chances with my (under a tenner) HDD as it does seem to be OK for the time being and it won't be doing anything of a critical nature. ;)
So once I have decided what to do about the CMOS battery issue and I have some ideas about this, I will give Linux a whirl and see what I make of it. After that if I am a convert I will risk it on one of my main machines, stick XP Pro on the Jetway one and most likely give it to my daughter as their desktop is a struggling old 500 MHz machine! :eek4:
PS Did you ever get that Master Socket sorted. ;)
You realise, Les, that we'll all want one now. :)
Quote from: Rik on Apr 24, 2008, 09:21:05
You realise, Les, that we'll all want one now. :)
Shall I draw a diagram with a few instructions? ;)
Well this evening I bit the bullet and swapped the two diodes on the Jetway mobo that are down by the CMOS battery. I pulled two from another old mobo and used those rather than two from my tin of old semiconductors. I put a new CR2032 CMOS battery in when I had the mobo re-installed and everything connected up again. To my relief I could still get into the BIOS and configure settings plus it all booted up again as it was doing previously from my W'98 startup floppy disk. All the drives were there and the settings in the BIOS remained after the machine had been switched off for a little while so the CMOS battery was working. :thumb:
Only time will tell if this has fixed the premature discharge problem so I have my :fingers:
Changing these diode was a fiddly task and they are normal sized components. I needed my strongest glasses and a steady hand. Some of the nearby PCB tracks were like threads. It's not one of my neatest jobs but the mobo does still work and with a bit of luck it may have fixed the problem.
I did compare the forward and reverse resistance of the replacement diodes with those of the ones that I took out and there was certainly a difference. The reverse resistance of the replacements was much higher so hopefully it will follow that the leakage will be less. :)
What do you reckon, I am in with a chance or not? ???
Pass. You're way over my head by now. :)
Quote from: LesD on Apr 24, 2008, 20:57:51
Shall I draw a diagram with a few instructions? ;)
Well this evening I bit the bullet and swapped the two diodes on the Jetway mobo that are down by the CMOS battery. I pulled two from another old mobo and used those rather than two from my tin of old semiconductors. I put a new CR2032 CMOS battery in when I had the mobo re-installed and everything connected up again. To my relief I could still get into the BIOS and configure settings plus it all booted up again as it was doing previously from my W'98 startup floppy disk. All the drives were there and the settings in the BIOS remained after the machine had been switched off for a little while so the CMOS battery was working. :thumb:
Only time will tell if this has fixed the premature discharge problem so I have my :fingers:
Changing these diode was a fiddly task and they are normal sized components. I needed my strongest glasses and a steady hand. Some of the nearby PCB tracks were like threads. It's not one of my neatest jobs but the mobo does still work and with a bit of luck it may have fixed the problem.
I did compare the forward and reverse resistance of the replacement diodes with those of the ones that I took out and there was certainly a difference. The reverse resistance of the replacements was much higher so hopefully it will follow that the leakage will be less. :)
What do you reckon, I am in with a chance or not? ???
Reckon so Les, unless you put one in the wrong way round!! :o You're a braver man than I ...........
Quote from: LesOnly time will tell if this has fixed the premature discharge problem
Dunno 'bout the MoBo, but it did for me!! :sigh:
Mo
:notfair:
Quote from: MoHux on Apr 25, 2008, 20:26:19
Reckon so Les, unless you put one in the wrong way round!! :o You're a braver man than I ...........
Not brave Mo, maybe foolhardy but I have been building electronic things since I was 13 (a four valve super-hetrodyne radio I recall being my first) but I don't get too much practice these days! :)
Despite my diodes not being the wrong way round my efforts appear to be in vain. :(
The clock had frozen overnight. I know this to be the early sign of the battery giving up.
I found a typical circuit for this bit of a mobo and the cathodes of the diodes, one from the battery the other from the "5 Volt" rail, are commoned at the CMOS reset jumper. With this jumper off the impedance the CMOS battery sees looks pretty much infinite but with it on it's still high, like 100's of kilohm's but it ought to be 10 or more Megohms based or the capacity of these 3 Volt cells. I pulled a couple of capacitors and checked them but they were not the culprits so I put them back again.
During the evening I left my main machine downloading Ubuntu 8.04 and got it on a CD so once I had my tinkering machine up and running again I stuck Ubuntu on it. I did it without Networking as its getting late but it did install OK. The wallpaper will take some getting used to till I can find something more to my taste but it works and I have had a paddle round to see what was familiar. I found the likes of /bin and etc and saw things during boot like "Grub" being loaded. "Grub" like Grep and all those other weird and wonderful UNIX names that the youths of the day, who conceived it, must have thought were the bees knees at the time! ;)
Still I am not going to jump to conclusion the Desktop did what it was supposed to do so that's all I could ask. As I say adjusting to it has to be done with as open a mind as I can muster! :)
Quote from: LesD on Apr 25, 2008, 23:45:31
Still I am not going to jump to conclusion the Desktop did what it was supposed to do so that's all I could ask. As I say adjusting to it has to be done with as open a mind as I can muster! :)
OK I am warming to this OS albeit slowly and most likely because it is a new toy and I can work it to a degree! ;)
Here I am posting from Mozilla Firefox 3 Beta 5 (Beta! I must remember not to do any on-line banking with it).
Mozilla and Firefox have always been for the enthusiasts and coming from the corporate background to be avoided in my humble opinion :duck: but as Netscape, the browser I used to use in UNIX is no more, I guess this will have to do. That said apart from the Beta bit I does seem OK so far.
I have had the Terminal Window open and run man, ps -ef | grep gnome* and used kill -9 wxyz to "Close" the Terminal Window and yes I do know there are easier ways! :) This was just for old times sake but there does seem to be a dearth of the powerful UNIX commands, well man is not reporting them. Maybe some were HP UX specific but I am sure some that I looked for were available in Sun UX and Redhat - OK I have used Linux before but it was some time ago and from what I see now, I have to agree it has moved on. It had to or die I guess.
I was surprised to see nothing in the root directory! :eek4:
Has boot sort of replaced it?
Ah yes where is Paul? I have had two or three floppy disk empty ones and DOS ones in my floppy drive and I get zilch. A right click Properties Rescan rattles the drive but I don t (oh oh where is the single comma below the @ key? All I get is a beep, I thought it was all going too well. I have just found that pressing it twice gives you one ´ honest it's bizarre but it's true. I will try 4 presses ´´ hows that two of them well I never) remember the ¨don t¨ with no comma, well to continue - see anything - no attempt to read with an error message, no offer to Format, nothing. This is the floppy drive that has been booting me up into the W´98 ¨DOS¨ environment for days so I know it works not some plug-in USB one. All very reminiscent of my fun and games with UNIX proper. Does a floppy need a driver? the UNIX ffloppy add in comes to mind from days of yore.
I am sure you folks will soon get me back on the straight and narrow :)
So far my impression is that is does work OK´ish and the quirks I have encountered I am sure can be sorted out. Maybe it´s me, conditioned by the drab look of the opening desktop but I am left thinking that ¨it´s a poor man´s alternative!
I have Windows 2000 for machines that are not up to XP and right now if I was going to give an old machine a new lease of life that´s what I would go for but don´t give up on me yet I am pressing the comma below the @ key twice as if I had been doing it all my life! Stopping doing it back in XP might be the problem now! :)
P.S. BTW I have not forgotten that Paul´s thread is about Linux and the BT Speed Tester so I have just been there to be told that I don´t have the Java Applets Enabled in this browers and being BT they did not offer me a way.
How do I get Java - visit the Java site I guess - do they have them for Linux? ???
Hi Les
Try and mount the floppy drive in a terminal. i.e. mount /media/floppy
I don't use Ubuntu so it may be different for you.
Java shouldn't be a problem. The easiest way to install it is through the inbuilt package manager or you could download it and install manually, its not difficult.
Strange thing with the keyboard, check in the "control panel" to make sure you have the correct layout selected.
I jumped into this thread rather late (like just now), and whilst I read page one (and some of page 2), I got bored with reading and jumped straight to the end (not that the posts were boring, you understand. Just that my attention span reached critical mass).
Anyway, one tip for installing which is something I've learned to do as a matter of course for anyone using ATI graphics cards with Linux.
i) when the restricted drivers tray icon appears - ignore it.
ii) go to the package manager and uninstall compiz (in it's entirety)
iii) still in package manager, install envyng
Let envyng install the ATI drivers for you.
If you don't, you may find that next time you boot you'll be left with a cursor on a white screen, and it's the devils own work to fix.
My advice is pre-emptive, rather than reactive. Ignore it at your peril :)
Steve
Quote from: D-Dan on Apr 26, 2008, 13:49:04
My advice is pre-emptive, rather than reactive. Ignore it at your peril :)
Steve
Ah the truth will out! :eek4:
This sounds like the UNIX I know and love! :)
I have a Java install bin file on the Linux desktop that is back at home. I am at my grand-daughter's now, using her Mummy's brand new spanking wireless Laptop with a bright and its airy XP look and feel as opposed to the barren desert look of my default Linux one but trying not to be negative I did read the install instructions for my Java bin file on the download website before leaving home and the install for later. Very UNIXy I have to say with some chmod etc to do. I just knew there would be. Good job that I have been there and done that before me thinks. ;)
I will have another go at the floppy later Ted. It was just that I was told that everything was point and click these days but so far my pointing and clicking has not been accurate enough! :(
The beauty is - once you get the basic system set up - it pretty much is just point and click.
Initial install to get everything working, despite a little, basic command line stuff, is still faster and less dangerous than a Windows install IMO, provided you know where the pitfalls are (such as the ATI drivers issue).
Having said that - the vast majority of stuff just works on Linux, unlike Windows where, having installed 100's of megabytes of stuff, you then have to go in search of hundreds more megabytes of drivers and updates before it's considered safe.
And that's before you get around to applications, many of which you will find there and ready to use on Linux.
Steve
PS - when you have the system up and running to your liking, may I recommend installing TORCS (from the package manager) for a little bit of no-nonsense driving game fun :)
Quote from: LesD on Apr 26, 2008, 16:47:06
I will have another go at the floppy later Ted. It was just that I was told that everything was point and click these days but so far my pointing and clicking has not been accurate enough! :(
Personally i just open a file manager and mount the drive (2 clicks)can't remember the last time i needed to though. seems that more system makers are moving away floppy drives these days, its not unusual for them to be an optional extra. With the introduction of bootable CDs and DVDs floppies do appear to be on the way out.
You can still use the floppy to boot from as long as the Bios is configured to.
Hi Ted,
"Exiled" to Computer Discussion I see. Thanks for the PM I have found my way back. (Who said pity!) :o
I have been otherwise engaged today and only managed a minor attempt at getting a floppy mounted by pointing and clicking. I found what I thought was going to be the answer even offered me an option to mount it but I must be missing something (probably brain cells) as I could not get it to work. There's always another day.
You asked for a comparison and it's early days yet but for first impressions I offer this:
The workings, if not the appearance of the Ubuntu Linux Gnome desktop I have, is more user friendly than the UNIX Common Desktop Environment (CDE) and Visual User Environment (VUE) that I had all those years ago. :thumb:
I think from this very primitive look that I have had that drivers for things like my nVidia AGP graphics card could be more difficult to get installed properly than in Windows simply because I was offered an update, took it and now I get grumbles about there being a restricted driver installed. What this means and what to do about it is not obvious or intuitive if you know what I mean and I am still none the wiser as to whether I can change the screen resolution or not! :thumbd:
Most likely this is down to my ignorance of this OS as I am an, "if all else fails read the book" man! :)
My recollection of the UNIX boxes was that one of the first option in the POST when they started to boot was to choose your Graphics option i.e. way before the OS was up and running. There were about 10 or so to cycle through to pick from to get the one you were after. After that is was set in stone but I may be wrong. Sometimes I am amazed at what was day to day bread and butter to me that I cannot recall in detail now, just a few years later! :blush:
I am impressed by the list of software that came in with the install. :thumb:
Not being familiar with the names of things or even opened very many of them I cannot give an opinion on how good any of it is compared to what we had in UNIX. What I can say is that anything of significance had to be bought and paid for so for free has to be a plus I guess. :)
I agree with you that there is a move to phase out floppy drives but I don't see that as a reason for accessing the one I have as justification for it being difficult or shall we say not obvious to me just yet. That said I would not want to be without one or a W'98 startup disk. Nothing like it to test the bare bones, because for that a PSU, MoBo, floppy drive and one of these diskettes is all you need! ;)
I still have not psyched myself up to doing anything with the Java bin file I downloaded yesterday. I must have another go to see if I can fathom out how to install Java with the package manager. :fingers:
There we are as I say early days and first impression. :)
You will have most likely gathered by now that I never use three words where ten will do so expect more verbal diarrhoea to come! >:D
Both Flashplayer and java should be available through the package manager, others who use Ubuntu will have more advise.
installing Nvidia drivers manually can be a pain, init3, kernel source needed, run, configure, init5 etc. Grrrrrrrr
Having said that, installing the dkms-nvidia package does the trick for me (click-click) :thumb:
Any desktop can look drab just look at "bliss" if you want to pep it up a bit ;D check out compiz-fusion Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4wB3GUemVw)
OK - I said it before referring to ATI graphics drivers - but it's equally valid for Nvidia cards.
Forget the difficult install process - go to package manager and install Envyng
Use that to install your graphics drivers. Honestly - it takes car of dependancies, install, and config. IMO - it's a godsend, and works for ATI and NV cards.
Steve
Thanks Ted and D-Dan I will try and give your suggestions ago this evening.
Trouble is I don't yet have a clue what, "Envyng" is or exactly what it does but if I can find it I will try it. :)
Quote from: LesD on Apr 20, 2008, 17:25:37
I reckon with a bit of Googling you could probably come up with the "Idiot's guide to Linux" that Rik has challenged you with. There must be one out there on there already somewhere on the World Wide Web! ;)
Well how about this as as starting point for users new to Linux:
http://www.linux.org/lessons/ :thumb:
I found it while looking for a clue to "Envyng".
Here is lesson 13 and it explains how to get the floppy drive working and a floppy disk formatted:
http://www.linux.org/lessons/beginner/l13/lesson13c.html
Not point and click but not too difficult I guess.
These lessons just might save Danni & Jane a job! ;)
Here's a clue to what Envyng is:
http://albertomilone.com/nvidia_scripts1.html
:)
Quote from: D-Dan on Apr 28, 2008, 19:41:58
Here's a clue to what Envyng is:
http://albertomilone.com/nvidia_scripts1.html
:)
Thanks for the link that's great.
I spotted it when I came in to Post that I believe I have succeeded by following my nose so to speak!
In the System menu I opened the Synaptic Package Manager under Administration and searched the list of packages for Envyng and core and a couple of others appeared so throwing caution to the wind I selected the lot and went for it. There were a whole host of other things that I was then told were necessary but hey in for a penny so I just said Go.
I watched quite a large download ensue at between 420 and 430 kBps which took between 2 & 3 minutes to complete but once done I found under System Preferences - Screen Resolution that I had not spotted before and a Screen Saver. I upped the Refresh Rate frequency to 53 Hz and Eureka the Black "in Memorandum" band all round my picture was gone and the Desktop filled the available area! :thumb:
A bit of success always makes things feel better. So now I need to tackle Java and the floppy. I reckon I can do both from the command line but it is the point and click I have to master if this is to be better than my previous UNIX experience! I am getting there though with your assistance. :thnks:
Now an aside. I am getting nowhere with my CMOS battery problem despite pinning my hope on leaky diodes I now suspect leaky (electrically speaking) electrolytic capacitors but there are too many of them to go at so I have bought another Mobo on eBay that my 1 GB of RAM and the old Thunderbird processor are compatible with, well I hope so from the research I did. Its an Abit KT7A so it should be OK. What I am concerned about is how my Ubuntu installation on my HDD is going to react when I do a Mobo transplant in a few days time. I know with the certainty that a bad experience brings that XP Pro would throw a right wobbly that would most likely entail a reinstall, reactivation and the WGA third degree all over again... and again... and again... Do you think I could be developing a Linux psyche? ;)
Quote from: LesD on Apr 28, 2008, 20:22:23
Do you think I could be developing a Linux psyche? ;)
No.........Its just coming back. ;D
Use the command line if you want to. i use both GUi and command line for different things. Therein lays the beauty. Choice!
Just because it can be point and click, doesn't mean its easier or better.
With regard to the motherboard swap, just try it. Someone i know did the same thing and had no problem. Well to be fair there was a bit of, "what's going on here" and looking at the hardware, but it booted up fine. IIRC it was Fedora Core (Redhat)
quite an intreresting read on hardy heron, and a new linux user
http://contentconsumer.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/is-ubuntu-useable-enough-for-my-girlfriend/
Quote from: Ted on Apr 28, 2008, 23:04:25
No.........Its just coming back. ;D
You just might be right! :)
I have had the floppy drive mounted, read a disk, unmounted the drive and formatted a disk all without resorting to the Command Line! :thumb:
Quote from: Ted on Apr 28, 2008, 23:04:25
With regard to the motherboard swap, just try it.
The eBay Abit Mobo arrived today so that is exactly what I did this evening and would you know I don't think my Ubuntu Linux even noticed. ;)
Last evening when I got fed up with the floppy I put a CD in with some MPEG music videos on it and within a few minutes I had them playing, in a window or full screen just like they do in Windows. I had to agree to some "Restricted" codecs being installed but after that away it went.
A downside to my new eBay Mobo is this Abit one does not have on-board sound so I have plugged in an old Genius PCI card that must be about 7 to 9 years old. The sound worked straight away but a couple of times it became distorted when I ran another application. I don't think this was happening with the Jetway Mobo's sound system. So maybe I need better drivers or perhaps another visit to eBay! :)
(Would you believe my wife thinks I have enough "junk" and should start selling some instead of buying more! I cannot think what she means. :whistle: )
Sounds like you're having fun :thumb:
The restricted codecs wil be the "win-32codecs" its just a licensing thing.
If you want to play DVD films you'll need the "libdvdcss2" file, should be available from the repos.
Check the default PCM level in the sound mixer, if its set too high it does sound very distorted.
With regard to getting rid of all your junkValued possessions, would it not be easier just to sell the wife? :solved: :legpull:
Hi Les,
I'm back in pocket :)
I'd recommend you go into the "repositories" menu in the package manager and tick just about everything apart from the "proposed" and "backports" repositories and reload packages. You should find more fun stuff then :)
If you aren't quite so keen on the look of the desktop (I assume you are using Gnome [the brown one]) I would try installing the "kubuntu-desktop" package. It's a big download (at least a couple of hundred meg) but it will give you the KDE desktop which may be more to your liking. When you install it select "kdm" as the login manager when prompted and select Session > KDE from the little menu button bottom-right of the login box. You can then choose between Gnome and KDE as you prefer.
I would then install the "kubuntu-restricted-extras" package. That should provide most of the fun "non-redistributable" things like Java, DVD decoding, MP3, Flash and so on.
If you want to be able to install proprietary things like Skype and Google Earth from the package manager then follow the instructions here:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Medibuntu
Good luck,
Paul.
Hi Paul,
I tried to run the BT Speed Tester so as not to deviate completely from the theme of the thread you started in IDNet Help before we were "exiled" (just for Ted) over here.
The problem was no Java. So I went to the Java website and downloaded a big bin file that is sitting on my desktop and short of giving in and resorting to the command line I cannot find out how to get it installed and Java working. I have not found this as intuitive as I would have liked! :)
The file I have is this one:
jre-6u5-linux-i586.bin
What do ypu reckon I should do?
I think you're gonna have to resort to the commandline - though a quick Google shows it's about three commands and that's it.
However, I find it odd you have to. I re-installed Ubuntu 8.04 last week (after I killed 7.10 through no fault but my own) - and Java was there ready to use.
If you are using firefox on Ubuntu, visit a java enabled page and see if FF offers to install it for you - no messing with the commandline then.
Steve
Quote from: Ted on Apr 29, 2008, 22:43:05
Check the default PCM level in the sound mixer, if its set too high it does sound very distorted.
I have tried lowering the PCM level this evening and I thinks it has made a difference.
PCM is new to me so a bit more to bottomout! :)
Quote from: Ted on Apr 29, 2008, 22:43:05
With regard to getting rid of all your junkValued possessions, would it not be easier just to sell the wife? :solved: :legpull:
Now there's a thought! :think: but who would cook my tea while I am transplanting MoBo's, CMOS diodes and posting on the forum? No she'll have to stay. ;)
Quote from: D-Dan on Apr 30, 2008, 19:05:42
I think you're gonna have to resort to the commandline - though a quick Google shows it's about three commands and that's it.
Defeatist! ;D
Quote from: D-Dan on Apr 30, 2008, 19:05:42
If you are using firefox on Ubuntu, visit a java enabled page and see if FF offers to install it for you - no messing with the commandline then.
The problem first cropped up at the BT Speed Tester site and there was no offer to install it there so I tried Broadband Max to see if they were any more helpful but I had no luck there either. So as your advice gelled with what I had initially tried I have just been to thinkbroadband's speed tester and sure enough I was offered two versions Java 5 & 6 and a couple of others that meant nothing to me so I had Java 6. Now I have it intalled and working here is a thinkbroadband speed test result to prove it:
30/04/08 19:33 3160.09 Kbps 374.40 Kbps 91.xxx.yy.zz 2Wire 2700 HGV
Flushed with success I went for a BT one and got this
The Performance Tester is now testing Broadband connection. Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 3500 k
Please do not move away from this page and do not start any other download activity on your computer.
and then 96% of the progress towards the final result it stalled with a message:
Exception::access denied (java.net.SocketPermission 217.32.105.42:50301 connect.
Still this could well be a BT issue and for me it spells definite progress. Look "No Hands" on the keyboard at the Command Prompt in the Terminal Window. :no: :no:
Well this is not strictly true I did have a more pressing concern that has had me there this evening and that was to check that my 1.4 GHz processor was in fact running 1.4Ghz on this "new" eBay Abit KT7A Mobo.
The BIOS set up for the 100 FSB (Dual data rate) AMD Athlon that I have is the result of a BIOS revision relatively early on in the life cycle of this now gentlemanly MoBo kind of like its new owner. :)
A 100/33 MHz FSB multiplier of 12above = 1400 kHz although the BIOS state it as 1300. Confused ??? so was I!
This evening I used this:
$ grep cpu /proc/cpuinfo (I know, I know its a command line entry but this little issue was bugging me) >:D
cpu family : 6
cpu MHz : 1400.157
cpuid level : 1
Isn't it nice and it tells me just what I wanted to know i.e. 12above x 100 = 1400.157 kHz
Now I bet there is a point and click method to find this out but at my rate of progress up the learning curve, knowing me, I would have had the BIOS re-flashed just to see if it made any difference before I found it! ;)
I do have a DOS6.2 bootable floppy ready prepared just in case the need arises! :whistle:
By the way the BIOS string in the POST is: 11/07/2001-8363-686B-6A6LMA19C-64. If there are any Guru's out there with an older Anorak than mine maybe they can confirm that this is in fact the latest available BIOS barring betas that is. I think the -64 on the end say it is but I am new to Abit MoBo's just like I am to Linux.
Now come on get you teeth into some proper replies no one liners after all my effort! ;)
Hi,
It seems that the BT speedtester failure is not Linux related. It happens with Firefox and the latest Sun JRE and happens exactly the same with the same software combination on Windows.
I did manage to solve the problem. If you install the Sun JRE and then use Opera as your browser it works so it seems to be a Firefox problem.
Cheers,
Paul.
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on Apr 30, 2008, 20:55:56
so it seems to be a Firefox problem.
I am using Firefox on the Linux box so I think you must be right.
I have always harboured doubts about FF. Just a feeling in the water I guess!
I have just had my "latest" BIOS bin file in Notepad and discovered I am two revisions behind .... now does it matter? The processor is fine and the last fix was to so with a nVidia GEforce card in XP? :no: :no: :but:
Since it's :bed: I shall sleep on it! :)
I like Firefox and when I'm on Windows I'm far more comfortable with it from a security prospective than I am with IE 6 or IE 7. Ubuntu Hardy comes with Firefox 3 Beta 5. They looked long and hard at the best option for the new distro. FF3B5 is nearly there quality wise and represents (IMHO) a better user experience than FF2. When FF3 goes gold it will obviously be updated by the package manager. If you don't like it then you could give Opera a try.
As for BIOS updates... I once had a very bad experience when one of those nice "winflash" programs bricked my laptop by crashing after erasing the BIOS chip but before writing the new code in. Since then I've been more of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" school of thought. If there is a new BIOS update I check the list of changes and only apply it if the fixes improve an issue that I have.
Cheers,
Paul.
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on May 01, 2008, 00:27:18
Ubuntu Hardy comes with Firefox 3 Beta 5.
Yes I did stand back in amazement when I realised that Ubuntu could release their heralded latest editon with declared Beta software in it! :eyebrow:
Beta = bugs and most worryingly bugs that are as yet unknown and the users are now the beta testers. :thumbd:
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on May 01, 2008, 00:27:18
As for BIOS updates... I once had a very bad experience when one of those nice "winflash" programs bricked my laptop
I did say earlier that I have flashed a number of BIOS's myself, mainly from a clean bootable floppy disk and the one and only failure I have ever had was from within Windows. Fortunately I am acquainted with Arthur in the Netherlands, who re-flashed my BIOS chip for me but that's another story and I have told it elsewhere, including on this forum. :)
Well you should not let one bad experience put you off. :no:
I didn't and this evening in less time than it is taking to type this reply the BIOS on this machine went up two revision from 64 to A9. :thumb:
Straight in off my bootable DOS 6.2 floppy no messing. :laugh:
As soon as I could get back into the BIOS I loaded the Optimised Defaults, checked the CPU multiplier and the FSB were OK and suffice to say they were exactly as before i.e. not that clear. :eyebrow:
Next I put the Date and Time right saved and exited and here I am back in Ubnuntu Linux running the dubious FF. ;)
Whoops wash my mouth out with soap and water I'm sorry but I just can't resist a dig. ;D
Anyway whether I really want to or not I am slowly finding my way round and I have just run:
$ grep cpu /proc/cpuinfo
again with this result:
cpu family : 6
cpu MHz : 1400.132
cpuid level : 1
So my Thunderbird is still thundering along quite nicely at 1.4 GHz. :thumb:
These old processor do tend to run a wee bit warm, which is OK at the moment because the case is still wide open but when I close it up I have designs on a Linux temperature monitor like Speedfan that I know and trust in Windows. Any ideas on this one? ???
I have heard said that running with the case open can lead to higher temperatures as the fans are unable to channel the air flow into and out of the case correctly :)
Quote from: LesD on May 01, 2008, 19:09:36
Yes I did stand back in amazement when I realised that Ubuntu could release their heralded latest editon with declared Beta software in it! :eyebrow
Beta = bugs and most worryingly bugs that are as yet unknown and the users are now the beta testers. :thumbd:
I know what you mean and Ubuntu did think long and hard about the choice of browser. Mozilla have said that 3B5 is the last beta before it goes gold (any time now) so IMHO it is nearly there and there won't be a huge difference in quality between 3B5 and 3.0. If this was an early beta I too would have thought they were mad. From my POV most software probably contains unknown bugs. In OSS software these tend to get fixed fairly quicklywhen discovered as we don't have to wait for the developers and can act ourselves if we consider something serious and are able. Also remember that Linux tends to be "secure by design" so even if a bug was found and exploited the damage it could do is very limited as you aren't running FF as an administrator.
QuoteI did say earlier that I have flashed a number of BIOS's myself, mainly from a clean bootable floppy disk and the one and only failure I have ever had was from within Windows. Fortunately I am acquainted with Arthur in the Netherlands, who re-flashed my BIOS chip for me but that's another story and I have told it elsewhere, including on this forum. :)
Well you should not let one bad experience put you off. :no:
I didn't and this evening in less time than it is taking to type this reply the BIOS on this machine went up two revision from 64 to A9. :thumb:
Straight in off my bootable DOS 6.2 floppy no messing. :laugh:
I was pleasantly surprised to find that Dell have a Linux BIOS flasher available for download. You tell the machine to go down to single user mode so only essential stuff is running then fire off the file from the command line and it does the business.
Quote
Anyway whether I really want to or not I am slowly finding my way round and I have just run:
$ grep cpu /proc/cpuinfo
Sounds promising. Have you looked in /proc/acpi ? There's loads of interesting information in there :) You should be able to check the temp with
cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature
If you look in the system menu you should find a program called "system monitor" which will give you running details about how bust the CPUs are, memory and network usage.
QuoteThese old processor do tend to run a wee bit warm, which is OK at the moment because the case is still wide open but when I close it up I have designs on a Linux temperature monitor like Speedfan that I know and trust in Windows. Any ideas on this one? ???
Depending on which desktop you use you could try computertemp, ksensors, ktemperature or xtemp.
:)
Good luck.
Quote from: stevethegas on May 01, 2008, 19:43:10
I have heard said that running with the case open can lead to higher temperatures as the fans are unable to channel the air flow into and out of the case correctly :)
Yes me too Steve but I know this case it's old, a bit cramped and certainly when I had a cooler running Intel P4 in it the temperatures went up with the case on. I was monitoring at the time using the PC Health option in the Award BIOS.
It would be nice if it did happen but I think in reality it may involve drilling a load more holes in it or (don't mention this to my wife :zip: ) looking on eBay for a bigger better case!
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on May 01, 2008, 19:53:35
From my POV most software probably contains unknown bugs.
Note I chose to say, "with declared Beta software in it".
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on May 01, 2008, 19:53:35
You should be able to check the temp with
cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature
I tried and this is what I get:
les@Linux-desktop:~$ cat /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature
cat: /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature: No such file or directory
les@Linux-desktop:~$ less /proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature
/proc/acpi/thermal_zone/THM/temperature: No such file or directory
les@Linux-desktop:~$
Quote from: Dangerjunkie on May 01, 2008, 19:53:35
If you look in the system menu you should find a program called "system monitor" which will give you running details about how bust the CPUs are, memory and network usage.
Depending on which desktop you use you could try computertemp, ksensors, ktemperature or xtemp.
Thanks for these pointers I will go looking shortly. :thumb:
It's nice to see that you seem to be warming to the modern day Linux experience.
I still use XP as my main OS, since I'm not convinced Linux has matured quite enough, yet; it's getting close though.
My main problems have usually been hardware related and having to jump through random hoops to get some working. Main problems of late have been with my graphics card (ATI), sound card (X-Fi) and webcam (Mircoshaft - ermm - Microsoft). Up to and including Ubuntu 7.10 the ATI could be made to behave (and I've given my hints on this already), and the soundcard could be fooled into working (though I'm blowed if I can remember how I did it), but the cam was a non starter. I'm rather pleased that with 8.04, the sound worked straight away (and is recognised as an X-Fi card rather than an Audigy), and the cam, whilst not having enough control over brightness and contrast yet (which means low light use - eg - indoors - is pretty much lousy) it does now work.
When they release 8.10 in October, assuming similar improvements, then they may be reaching the point where Linux becomes my main OS, with Windows for my windows only stuff (though if I can get Cinema 4D working under wine, even better).
My main gripe now is that compiz is installed by default, despite the fact that if I want accelerated 3D graphics, I have to uninstall it first, but as long as I remember - I suppose it could be worse. At least with Linux I don't have to trawl through endless CDs or internet sites looking for elusive drivers anymore :)
Steve
Quote from: D-Dan on May 01, 2008, 22:09:08
It's nice to see that you seem to be warming to the modern day Linux experience.
I cannot deny that the having a more Windows like Desktop is an improvement over the old CDE and VUE ones I had but I can't help wondering how these may have moved on in the commercial versions of UNIX.
I last used HPUX 10.20 and I believe 11 and possibly even 12 were around at that time.
Quote from: D-Dan on May 01, 2008, 22:09:08
I still use XP as my main OS, since I'm not convinced Linux has matured quite enough, yet; it's getting close though.
I shall have to concur with you there about your current main OS. I would have to become a lot more comfortable meaning familiar with Linux to give up XP. I have no leaning towards Vista at this time but I am in my comfort zone with XP having come to it from the W3.11, W'95, W'98 and Win2K route at home and via NT4 and Win2K at work. I can see that Linux has the means of doing what Windows does but in some ways its one of those "false friends" in that it can lull you into thinking you know your way round when the truth dawns on you that you are lost. Well maybe that's down to my incompetence but I am certainly not giving up on it just yet. I shall just have keep on booting up my XP machine for a rest in the comfort zone when I feel the need! :)
Quote from: D-Dan on May 01, 2008, 22:09:08
My main problems have usually been hardware related and having to jump through random hoops to get some working.
Sounds like I have these sort of hoops ahead of me! I followed your advice about EnvyNG as best as a Rookie could but I am still not fully convinced I am getting the best out of my Graphic card. I have a resolution of 1024x768 at 53 Hz that fills the screen so its OK for now.
Quote from: D-Dan on May 01, 2008, 22:09:08
I'm rather pleased that with 8.04, the sound worked straight away (and is recognised as an X-Fi card rather than an Audigy)
That's great but not having used 7.10 I have not experienced your previous problems and at the other end of the scale I was pleased to get sound first from the on-board sound system on the Jetway Mobo I was initially using and now from an old Genius PCI sound card in the Abit one that was great in W'98 but that XP struggled with. This was mainly because the Genius driver support was lacking in my opinion.
Quote from: D-Dan on May 01, 2008, 22:09:08
When they release 8.10 in October, assuming similar improvements, then they may be reaching the point where Linux becomes my main OS, with Windows for my windows only stuff (though if I can get Cinema 4D working under wine, even better).
October will be with us before we know it but let's not wish our lives away, what say you? ;)
Quote from: D-Dan on May 01, 2008, 22:09:08
My main gripe now is that compiz is installed by default, despite the fact that if I want accelerated 3D graphics, I have to uninstall it first, but as long as I remember - I suppose it could be worse. At least with Linux I don't have to trawl through endless CDs or internet sites looking for elusive drivers anymore :)
Ah if only I had just a few of your skills. I don't even know what "compiz" is! :blush:
Interesting thread.
I'll weigh in on the side of the Linux fans.
I'm currently running Ubuntu Hardy Heron on an Althon 64 bit machine, with Nvidia graphics card.
I've always liked the idea of Linux, and periodically had a go at using it over the years. Until about 2 years ago, moving over completely to it for home use always defeated me for various reasons.
As has been mentioned in the thread, I always found Linux forums "clanny" and "sneery" towards "N00bs" (don't you just hate that insulting term for a start ::)
This all changed when Ubuntu came along, it really seemed to open up the "Linux Experience". I'm not a "hardcore" computer type, although I've been computing at home at work since DOS days.
My aim is always to end up with a system to use practically, as opposed to setting up "difficult" system as a technical challenge. The core reasons that I like Linux are :-
1. It's frugal with hardware requirements
2. It's inherently a more secure OS than Windows.
3. It requires no system slowing anti virus facilities.
4. It's completely configurable to your own requirements - You can, if you wish, create a true "personal
computer"
5. It's free ;)
Anyway, I've been running Ubuntu since Dapper Drake (2006) - I've even loaded the latest version Hardy Heron for my father to use - and it just works and stays working for him. The number of "support calls" I've had from him has dropped to zero since I weaned him off Windows. I've also loaded Mint Linux ( an Ubuntu derivative) for my mother to use - In some respects it was easier for her. At 71, she is a computer novice, so she has no "baggage" !
The point in all this is that from a user point of view, the modern Linux PC is as easy to use as a Windows PC .
With respect to hardware, my own PC, I built it specifically to run Linux. Both my parents have PC's that are barely viable for XP, but, with the addition of a little RAM, run extremely well on Linux.
I use my Linux PC exclusively at home for domestic and leisure use. However, I do have Windows 2000 loaded on a spare hard drive (bootable by selection in the BIOS) as a backup and for use with some electronics design programs associated with my employment and part time work. - Unfortunately the programs won't run on WINE and alternative Linux programs are too much effort to make compatible with the rest of teh industry - Like I said above, I'm not into the "arts for arts sake" approach !
I am aiming to make sure that I never have to own a MS OS that is more contemporary than 2000.
Unless you are into gaming or specialist S/W, I can't see why modern Linux won't work for everyone as a domestic machine - In these days of environmental considerations, it may even help keep computers that aren't viable for the later MS OS's out of the dump.
Go on, give it a go - get an old PC from your local Free Cycle:-
http://www.freecycle.org/
......and download a free copy of Xbuntu :-
http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/xubuntu
A version of Ubuntu specifically for lower powered machines.
Nothing to pay, nothing to loose :thumb:
Only a few more grey cells. ;)
During my 6 month move to Linux, I found I'd lost the ability to do anything without problems. :(
Hi Chris, whilst not disagreeing with you about the advantages of Linux I still think it's only for people who have at least some basic IT skills and don't mind getting under the hood to configure it, especially when trying to connect and use peripherals.
Before using any version of Windows I used Sun Unix and was happy to tinker about to get things working but since using Windows things have been much less of a hassle.
I did try SUSE Linux about 18 months ago but was unable to get it to recognize my printer or ADSL modem so eventually gave up. Presumably new versions like Ubuntu are better but working in applications support during the day I now find I don't want to deal with IT issues in the evening as well if I can avoid it.
Whilst Windows is not perfect, because it is used so much in industry then like it or not it is a standard and most applications and peripherals will run with no or minimal user configuration.
Hi Folks
I have to confess to having a "tinker" with my machine - because I'm an engineer and follow the edict " if it's not broken, fiddle with it until it is - then have fun mending it" ;)
....However, If I wanted to stick to the basic specification for a home computer :-
1. email
2. Browser
3. Office Suite
4. Image manipulation
5. Sound / video playing
Hand on heart, installation of Ubuntu wouldn't have been any more difficult than Windows. The machines that I did for my parents were, literally, shove in a downloaded CD, answer a few simple questions (time zone, etc) and let the thing do its stuff. No command line required, all hardware and peripherals recognised.
In my "tinkering" I found the forums very helpful, I would not say getting unpaid for information on problems is any more difficult than for Windows (which I still use daily at work).
Adding and removing programs is actually easier than Windows, you just download from repositories, no faffing with CDs, no entry of security keys (etc).
I don't know much about modern SuSE, I did try it a while ago and have to confess to finding it a trial ! Lots of command line required and difficulty getting my hardware recognised !
sorry, duplicate
As I have said elsewhere having use the GrandDaddy of Linux, UNIX for a good part of my working life I was most reluctant to get involved with it in any form at home. The gauntlet was laid down for me to try a modern Linux and as the Hardy Heron was about to be launched (Ubuntu 8.04) I was game to give it a go. So much so that I resurrected a machine (1.4 GHz AMD Thunderbird with 40 GB HDD and a Gig of RAM as I recall)
Ubuntu did install easily and I did get some things to work OK but I was not impressed that the Browser was released as Beta version and therein laid the start of my disillusionment. :(
I was worn down by nothing more complicated than installing Java to get in particular the BT Speed Tester to work. which it subsequently transpired needed more than just Java to fix it like installing Opera instead of FF I think it was. :eek4:
As a last resort having been down at init 1 to get at a working SU password, knife and forking the Java install bin file into the beast, creating the links to FF and still having no success with Java I called time and as I put it came back into my comfort zone with XP Pro. The barren desert of a Desktop was depressing after a while especially when things were not going well so I decided it was not for me. Maybe and only maybe when, is it 8.10 comes along, I just might give it one more chance. The machine is still available but I have my reservations. My favourite to keep an older class of machine usable has to be Win2K. ;)
Quote from: chrisga on Jul 06, 2008, 22:45:08
I have to confess to having a "tinker" with my machine - because I'm an engineer and follow the edict " if it's not broken, fiddle with it until it is - then have fun mending it" ;)
I think I fit into that category. :P
Quote from: chrisga on Jul 06, 2008, 22:45:08
Hand on heart, installation of Ubuntu wouldn't have been any more difficult than Windows. The machines that I did for my parents were, literally, shove in a downloaded CD, answer a few simple questions (time zone, etc) and let the thing do its stuff. No command line required, all hardware and peripherals recognised.
Agreed. Installation, over the past few years, has become as easy - if not easier - than Windows. Ubuntu now even boots as a live CD and runs installation from there.
When I say I found Linux frustrating, granted that was on a VAIO notebook, so there was lots of tricky things to do (such as getting the hotkeys to work, the screen dimming function, and so on).
But then I wanted to install it on my current PC, which runs a RAID0 array. I tried for 2 days and still couldn't do it, even after reading every post on the subject on the Ubuntu forums. With Windows, setup just requires the RAID driver. Okay, that's not totally the fault of Linux as hardware vendors are notoriously less fussed about Linux, but this is what I mean when I say everything seems like a hassle. :)
I thought you were going to say "will to live" Seb. :)
Hi Chris,
You make some fair points and I'm sure that if I got hold of the latest version of Unbuntu things would be more straight forward than it was for SUSE.
However I think you're still looking at it from someone who has IT skills. I often have to help some friends out where even very simple things are a mystery to them (i.e. using tabs in Internet Explorer, invoking applications from the start menu - I have to put a shortcut on their desktop and even creating separate accounts for husband and wife - they don't the added complication of passwords).
These examples may seem extreme but they just want to use the PC to surf the net, use e-mail and write and print the occasional Word document in the simplest way possible. Installing a different OS would be far beyond them and I'm sure there are many more in a similar situation who are not very technically minded. Up until a couple of months ago they were still happily using Windows 95 with no USB ports or CD drive and only bought a new machine with Vista because AOL told them they were no longer supporting their OS.
When you have an IT related job it's easy to lose sight of the fact that many people with little or no IT skills find many tasks impossible. It's a shame really because they're only using a tiny fraction of the capabilities of their PC's.
Some people have said that unless you have some minimal knowledge or are not prepared to learn then you shouldn't be using a computer in the first place but I disagree, if people can use a PC to do what they need and are happy not to do anymore then that's fine by me. It's a bit like saying that people shouldn't drive a car unless they know how the engine works.
Hi John
I hear what you're saying. I've come across such people, even in quite high positions in companies. If something "goes wrong" with their PC , they just 'phone to the IT department .
I had a discussion with an IT manager about this a few years ago (incidentally, I'm not in IT myself, I work in hardware support and development in the Broadcast Equipment industry) - He had mixed feelings, one part of him was loathed to change the "Status Quo", because it gave him good job security. The other part of him considered that basic IT "literacy" should be part of an employees basic skill set (like the 3Rs).
As far as the wider population is concerned though (those that don't need to use IT for their daily jobs, or those that are retired), I agree that it is perfectly OK for these folks to just use a PC as a tool. The only comment I would make is that the cost of ownership for them is likely to be quite high if they have to call in an "expert" every time the simplest thing goes wrong !
I guess this was the same situation for cars in an earlier phase of their development - Not a lot anyone can do themselves on that front now though ! I think as time goes on, and the PC matures, less hardcore skills will be required to keep them running as well.
My opinion is that as activity becomes more Web based, the actual OS that you are running will become progressively less relevant. We co-habit an Industrial Park with an organisation that provides remote business IT facilities for companies - They host the bulk of the hardware, do backups, facilitate applications (etc) the only equipment required at the clients end is a network connection and some "cut down" Web PCs along with networked printers. You can see the savings on an IT department and computer hardware. You can also see the trend for such facilities to be accessed through a browser. In that event, who cares if that's done with MS and Internet Explorer or Linux and Mozilla (etc)? A real threat to MS I would have thought !
Quote from: Rik on Jul 07, 2008, 01:32:42
I thought you were going to say "will to live" Seb. :)
:lol:
Hi Chris,
I agree that networked applications may become more viable, especially for personal use for people who want to dependonly on minimal support, but the communications infrastructure needs to be a lot better and more reliable for it to really take off although if there is a local company providing the service with a dedicated network rather than the public telephone system then this may work quite well.
However I'm not sure that many small to medium sized companies will always want to trust third parties with their data or rely on them to ensure that the service is always available. I work in IT for a large company but hardware and general office applications type support is outsourced to another company (we still host the servers though). However there would have been a lot of (expensive) 'vetting' to ensure that the data is secure (even so I personally am not totally convinced it is). The contract is for several million £'s and I think we could buy a new machine for less than what they charge to re-build a PC. From past experience there is not a lot of confidence from the end users in them and it was easier when we had the staff to do the work ourselves, it was faster too as you could talk to the guys nearby if there was a network or printer problem and they would fix it more or less immediatley, now we have to call the helpdesk and most calls have a three day response time.
Hi John,
I also hear what you're saying but I don't agree. Your friend is going to have to learn a completely new OS whatever. IMHO Windows has changed so much that jumping from 95 to Vista with no stop at XP will see such a change in user experience that they will effectively be back to square one (other than their mouse and keyboard skills which would be equally applicable to any OS.)
You seem to view Linux as a terribly difficult thing that ordinary people can't master. Windows can be just as bad (if not worse) when something goes badly wrong. I would venture that if you asked granny (no insult intended to grannies) to fix a Windows device breakage by removing the cached driver files from the Windows folder, using regedit to hack the registry then installing the latest version from the device vendor's website that she would be just as incapable of fixing it as she would have fixing any Linux problem.
When Windows goes wrong internally it is a <choose expletive> to fix; I am a computing graduate with 15 years of Windows admin experience on every version since 3.1 (other than Me - I just didn't go there.) There are so many interdependent binary keys that if the registry gets badly broken I stand almost no chance of fixing it. The average, non-technical, home user stands even less chance which is why the standard fix offered by many vendors is to slap in the recovery disc and reinstall as going through a fix requires more nouse than the average helpdesk person has and would take so long as to be too expensive. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, whatever OS someone is running, if they're non-technical and something bad happens they're going to be ******ed without the help of someone that knows what they're doing. The number of malicious programs that prey on Windows IMHO makes breakage much more likely and the non-technical user is the one that will be most likely not to practice safe computing and will get hit.
These days I think Ubuntu is easier day-to-day for many people. Most hardware is recognised without driver CDs or downloads (the same as Mac.) You can get programs for almost every task by searching with the package manager, choosing one and hitting install. You never have to worry about having the correct version of a certain DLL or needing some other program to make something work. The package manager knows what everything needs and automatically takes care of that for you.
One example in point is a friend of mine that recently changed an elderly relative over to Ubuntu. Previously he was visiting her every couple of weeks in order to fix some problem or another or to remove some web nasty that had installed itself. Since changing her over he's only had one call in 4 months. We view this as ideal for this kind of user, if it's left alone it doesn't break.
Cheers,
Paul.
I hear what your're saying too Paul and perhaps my view is somewhat biased by the problems I've had with earlier versions of Linux. However I still think there's much more readily available support for Windows machines than Linux.
If someone really has a problem with the OS and doesn't know anyone personally who can help then most places that sell PC's which have a service department will probably be able to help. There's also usually a couple of companies who advertise in our local magazine who also provide help and training. This is more likely to be Windows than Linux though.
Personally I'd prefer to use Linux as I've had a lot more experience with Unix than Windows. The company I work for though has migrated nearly everything to Windows PC's as not all the applications would run on Unix and there is not adequate commercial support for Linux. As industry will continue to use Windows then it's likely most people will use use it at home too if only because it will be familiar.
The last I heard was that 90% of PC's are running Windows, followed by Macs and then Linux. Given these figures commercial support organisations are going to concentrate on the OS with the largest share of the market.
I think it's a bit like the old Betamax/VHS debate, Betamax was considered the superior system but VHS was much more widespread and became the standard.
Regards
John
Hi John,
It's nice to see you posting up here on the forum. I have been remiss in not saying hello and :welc: so that's it done now. I see you have met Paul, he is very knowledgable about PC's, networking and Linux in particular unlike myself, who gets by as a Jack of all Trades Master of none.
I have enjoyed the exchanges of views in this thread especially as it was one of my more mischievous post that kick started Baz's thread once again a month or three ago.
I have said before that I came from the position of using UNIX (HPUX 10.20 was the last version) every day at work and was the system administrator for a good while. Like in your Company the software we ran on the UNIX boxes was eventually ported into Window and the UNIX system was retired gracefully.
(I would say as it should be but it would only get some folks backs up :zip: ) ;D
Anyway from within this forum and from outside it I was encouraged to give Linux a try to see how it had moved on (improved) from the days when I used its Grandad. ;)
Well initially I was impressed with the ease of the installation and the initial look and feel. This was contrary to what I expected and with what was essentially a new toy I ran with it but before very long I began to stumble.
There were any number of reasons for this.
Maybe first and foremost is that well known problem of teaching an old dog new tricks.
Paul, Ted, Danni, Markiep, Jane, D-Dan and others all waded in to help me as is the way with folks on this forum and I did make some progress.
The second "trap" was possibly believing that because I could drive UNIX, Linux would be a doddle but the very features that were supposed to attract me got me into trouble, namely trying to point and click to do everything with the mouse and not using the command line.
Third is the very familiarity I have with Windows that now leads me to describe it as my comfort zone, made Linux uncomfortable for me. This was because it is a "false friend" you think you are in familiar surrounding because some things look to be working in the way that you are used to then wallop you find a fundamental difference when you walk smack into it with yours eyes wide open.
The "Repository" that those who know and understand it and sing the virtues of was one of the first things to "wallop" me. As a "false friend" from XP there is "Add/Remove" but is this "Package Manager" or "Package Manager" in another guise? I did think I had this bottomed out after a while but must to confess to have forgotten again now. The "wallop" came in the form that initially I got it in my mind that you obtained what you wanted with "Package Manager" and installed it with "Add/Remove" but having got some things installed in duplicate I came to the conclusion that this might not be the case.
My screen resolution was another niggle a 20 second job to set up in XP was an hour or more of reading, posting, Googling and eventually Envyng and I did end up with a reasonable resolution but not as high as the monitor would go with the same hardware using XP. Again it was ever likely that there was something I was missing but intuitive it was not.
Then what was to be the last straw, Java! If you haven't heard about the mess I got into with this "simple" task and have the patience then be my guest and read other bits in this thread but don't say I didn't warn you. My fault I am sure and on reflection I now suspect some stale links might have been to blame for some of the grief but that's the nub of it by then it was grief and grief I did not need so I decided enough was enough and packed the box with Ubuntu Linux on it away. :thumbd:
I did get sound and manage to play and read CD's and DVD's, even mount and use a floopy disk but did not get as far USB devices like my cameras and scanner.
I know defeatist but there is always another day and like the mother, who has just given birth often declares, "never again" but does bear more children later, I may forget the pain and try again but not just yet! ;)
If you are the sort that likes to dabble and tinker then there is a wealth of things to dabble and tinker with but for a newbie, especially one from a solid Windows background, who does not want to dabble or tinker then tread carefully before taking on Ubuntu Linux. If a machine comes with it preinstalled and with an armoury of compatible hardware it may well be a different story but the percentages you quote do make quite a statement. Everyone to his or her own and as I often say time will tell. :)
Hi Les,
I used to like to tinker with the OS but just as I used to like tinker with cars when I first got one I'd now prefer for it just to work without any hassle.
Thanks for the welcome and apologies if I've got this wrong but I get the impression that you think I'm new to this forum. However I've been here about 12 months (and made over 2500 posts!)
Nice to meet you anyway Les :)
Regards
John
(PS I'd say a bit more but I've got to go out now)
Quote from: john on Jul 08, 2008, 20:18:16
I used to like tinker with cars when I first got one I'd now prefer for it just to work without any hassle.
I know exactly what you mean I have been there and done that too.
Quote from: john on Jul 08, 2008, 20:18:16
Thanks for the welcome and apologies if I've got this wrong but I get the impression that you think I'm new to this forum. However I've been here about 12 months (and made over 2500 posts!)
How remiss of me again, too wrapped up in "thoughts about Linux" to pay proper attention. :blush: :sry:
Perhaps I should post an edit to say welcome to this thread! ;)
Quote from: john on Jul 08, 2008, 20:18:16
Nice to meet you anyway Les :)
Nice to meet you too. :)
Quote from: LesD on Jul 08, 2008, 20:02:52
If you are the sort that likes to dabble and tinker then there is a wealth of things to dabble and tinker with but for a newbie, especially one from a solid Windows background, who does not want to dabble or tinker then tread carefully before taking on Ubuntu Linux. If a machine comes with it preinstalled and with an armoury of compatible hardware it may well be a different story but the percentages you quote do make quite a statement. Everyone to his or her own and as I often say time will tell. :)
I have had a whole lot of trouble with Ubuntu and video cards. I have a test box I have had probably 7 or 8 Linux distributions running on with no problem and the only one that I could not get to play nicely with the video is Ubuntu. I just spoke to someone yesterday about this who had the identical problem. I advised him to go to OpenSUSE and all his problems were solved. He is now installing VMWare to run an XP Session under Linux to run a few apps that don't exist for the Linux world.
I say this because people sometimes forget that Linux is more than just Ubuntu. (I'm not accusing you of this). Ubuntu takes a very different philosophical approach than other distros and vice versa. So if one is serious in trying out Linux, I always suggest trying at least two distros... Ubuntu and OpenSuse. If three, Mandriva.
To that end needing to try different distros illustrates one of the problems with Linux... it lacks the discipline in standardisation. It also at times can be very bloated, particularly if you want to run a server to do one job. (for example handle email). For servers, in the last couple of years I have gone to FreeBSD. When you install FreeBSD, you get a core of programmes installed and then you add to it what you need. I like this minimalist approach. I also think that the disciplined management of FreeBSD has resulted in fewer bugs, better documentation, etc. I know this is just an opinion which some of my friends disagree with, but I throw it out to provoke thought and consideration.
My general overall view of Ubuntu is that it is a good distro, though my personal experience is bad. From day one Ubuntu has been the masters of P.R. and in many ways advanced bringing Linux to the desktop in a way that the rest of the Linux field that others have not been able to do so well. With Vista being less than what we would expect for an advanced operating system from a well established software company like MicroSoft, more and more people are trying Linux. It is also becoming more and more common to see Linux installed on new computers (such as the Asus EEEPC). For the foreseeable future, Linux is here to stay.
Quote from: doc_holiday on Jul 09, 2008, 07:52:48
For servers, in the last couple of years I have gone to FreeBSD. When you install FreeBSD, you get a core of programmes installed and then you add to it what you need. I like this minimalist approach.
Good point Doc, I've no experience of FreeBSD but if you can minimalise it just to perform server tasks then it sounds a good idead to me. I would have thought you could do the same with Linux as well, though presumably most distro's come complete with the usual applications and drivers etc that people require to use as a general purpose machine.
Much of the critisism of Windows is in fact because to a large extent it has to be all things to all people out of the box. Most people don't want to spend time adding or removing the things they don't need and if you consider that at times Linux can be bloated then perhaps it's going the same way as Windows in that respect.
Hi All,
New to Idnetters although I've been an Idnet customer for a while.
This is such an interesting topic I can't help but get involved!
I think one important factor hasn't really been fully covered, that of cost!
For instance, I'm a multimedia developer, my workstation runs windows XP, the Adobe master collection CS3 suite, Adobe Director, 3D studio max and various other utilities and programmes to do 'stuff'.
Workstation cost £6000
Software cost circa £10,000!
Now most of the programmes I use are considered to be 'industry standard' as they are the best tools for the job, however Linux does have alternative solutions for every one of those programmes . The may not be quite as good or polished yet, but usually will happily open the file formats of the big boys and do a pretty good job.
These are free!
Some of the better known linux equivelents such as GIMP for image editing (to replace photoshop) or blender for 3D (to replace 3dstudio max or maya) are becoming more popular by the day, as anyone, no matter what their financial resources, can use these very powerful packages to let thier creativity go wild.
I despair of the big software companies and the prices they charge for thier products. I've always been of the opinion that software piracy would be a lot less prevalent if software was more reasonably priced. The old argument of which would you prefer £1000 from 100 people or £10 from 100,000!
I run a linux file/ media server at home, it holds all my music, runs a VOIP server, ftp server has 3 Tb of RAID5 storage, does some torrenting and various other things. It often runs from months at a time without even a restart, I still however do most of my work on windows.........
Go figure!
Best,
Mike
I won't be joining the thread, as it might as well be Chinese to me, but :welc: Mike!
Welcome, Mike. :welc: :karma:
It's true that the cost of software is often over-looked when looking at the overall cost of the machine. Like you, I have a disk full of Adobe software, including the full Font Folio. For me to change platform now would be painfully expensive. :(
Thanks for the kind welcome ;D
I suppose my main point is that I think we may end up with a software class divide:
The minority who can afford the expensive windows packages (upper class??)
Versus
The greater number who may end up using the free linux equivelents (working class??)
And if the majority end up using the linux equivelents, I'm sure its development will overtake its windows counterparts.
I know this is a huge simplification, and may be more specific to creative and design industries but I can't resist the temptation of mixing politics and computers ;)
M
We usually add food somewhere in the mix, Mike. ;)
You're right, though I wonder if the traditional working classes will adopt Linux? My guess is they'll continue to buy knock-offs of Windows software.
Quote from: dysonco on Jul 09, 2008, 14:12:47
And if the majority end up using the linux equivelents, I'm sure its development will overtake its windows counterparts.
Hi Mike and welcome to the forum :welc:
I think the point I've been trying to make (poorly!) is that for Linux to gain wider acceptance it needs to be taken up more by industry who are the biggest users and most people who use a PC at work will are likely to use same OS at home too. Commercial development and support of industrial applications is expensive and will often only be done for the OS where it's viable to do so, usually for the most widespread OS, which at the moment is Windows, unless there is a minimal amount of work porting it to other OS's. As far as industry is concerned the cost of purchasing the machine, OS or application (or even to some extent how well it works) is not the first consideration it's the fact that there is going to be reliable support to ensure there is minimal downtime if there is a problem.
I think that in the Windows/Linux debate many people who promote Linux do so because they only see it from a home users point of view or rightly or wrongly dislike Microsofts dominance of the market.
Welcome to the forum, Mike! :karma:
Quote from: john on Jul 09, 2008, 17:59:33
I think the point I've been trying to make (poorly!) is that for Linux to gain wider acceptance it needs to be taken up more by industry who are the biggest users
But that's the whole point. Linux is already widely used in industry, and the liklihood is that you have used it today whether you intended to or even realised that you had. The Apache servers are the most widespread on the planet, and it's highly unlikely that you haven't passed through one whilst simply browsing the web.
Similarly, an enormous number of devices use embedded linux (mobile phones, DAB radios, freeview, cars etc.), simply because the OS is so customisable and can be scaled to fit the requirements of the end device.
But therein lies the problem. Windows is built for a specific hardware set (granted, with a huge variety of off the shelf parts to build it from - but still the same basic units) whereas linux will run on a toaster if you give it a cpu. With such flexibility and saleability there will inevitably be added complications.
I think the point at the start of your project was to make the comparison between UNIX of old and Linux today, and I'm sure you would be hard pressed to say that significant advances have not been made. I remember my turmoil trying to get Debian 3 running on my old Amiga M68K machine, when the GUI was an optional extra and installing it in any way was a treacherous walk through the CLI.
I have gone on record here as saying that Linux is not yet sufficiently mature to oust Windows from my machine, but it is certainly getting there, and in a year or two, who knows? The last 12 months have seen significant improvements, and it is almost implausible that it won't overtake Windows in terms of usability in the next couple of years.
Steve
Quote from: D-Dan on Jul 10, 2008, 01:15:42
I have gone on record here as saying that Linux is not yet sufficiently mature to oust Windows from my machine, but it is certainly getting there, and in a year or two, who knows? The last 12 months have seen significant improvements, and it is almost implausible that it won't overtake Windows in terms of usability in the next couple of years.
I'm in the same boat. However, a colleague of mine moved to OpenSUSE yesterday as his main OS. He can now run about 95% of his Windows apps in Linux. Things like Evolution are working well with our Exchange server.
For the remainder of critical apps that he can't run in Linux, he has set up VMWare with XP. He's running Dreamweaver and a few other things in this XP session and so far is saying it is working fine. He sent me screen shots yesterday and it was impressive.
Anyhow, I'll see how it goes, but when I hear stuff like that, it certainly begins to make running Linux as a main OS plausible.
Quote from: D-Dan on Jul 10, 2008, 01:15:42
But that's the whole point. Linux is already widely used in industry, and the liklihood is that you have used it today whether you intended to or even realised that you had. The Apache servers are the most widespread on the planet, and it's highly unlikely that you haven't passed through one whilst simply browsing the web.
Similarly, an enormous number of devices use embedded linux (mobile phones, DAB radios, freeview, cars etc.), simply because the OS is so customisable and can be scaled to fit the requirements of the end device.
I don't deny that Steve and I'm aware that the Apache servers run Linux but all the cases you have mentioned are using it for a very specific purpose. For example the servers, DAB radios, Freeview, cars etc do not have to run Office applications, databases, document management systems, CAD systems, Software development, Video editing, play games or many of the other apps that Windows is called upon to do. I know Linux can also do many of these things but often not the commercial applications that are used in industry.
QuoteHowever, a colleague of mine moved to OpenSUSE yesterday as his main OS. He can now run about 95% of his Windows apps in Linux. Things like Evolution are working well with our Exchange server.
For the remainder of critical apps that he can't run in Linux, he has set up VMWare with XP. He's running Dreamweaver and a few other things in this XP session and so far is saying it is working fine. He sent me screen shots yesterday and it was impressive.
I can run 100% of my Windows applications out of the box without having to set up VMWare. I'm sure most (but not all) issues can be overcome but I suspect most home users don't want the hassle of working out how to configure the OS to do so. In fact I imagine that majority of home users when they buy a PC do so so that they can surf the net, send and receive e-mail, write some letters, play some tunes and games and expect it to have everything installed and configured for them before they buy it.
Just to add my experience of linux, addmitedly very limited.
I downloaded and installed Ubuntu (not the latest release, the one before it), installation was easy enough and all my hardware was correctly idnetified and installed. This is where I hit a brick wall.
I wanted to see what game performance was like so dusted off my old copy of Unreal Tournament 2004. This game has a linux installer on the disk.
It took me over two and a half hours of reading / googling to get it to install and run. I admit that is due to my own inexperience of linux. After running the game and seeing very poor performance, HDD was removed (it was a spare) and my Windows one reconnected to the computer.
I'll be sticking with Windows for the time being, but every now and then I'll drop the latest distro on to see whats happening / changing in the Linux world.
To be honest, if you want to game, use windows.... Games developers just aren't working with linux unless its on the server side. To be honest they are having trouble with multiprocessing vista and 64bit computing so linux is not high on the list!
I've been using Linux at home for several years now, mainly as a file server etc. I've never really considered going to it for my main OS. For gaming XP is the king. I've only recently taken the plunge and my main desktop at home now runs Vista 64 ultimate (although it is dual booted with XP for emergencies).
Game of choice at the moment Call of duty 4
On the other hand my file server happily chugs away 24/7 running teamspeak, file shares, azureus for torrent downloads, is often asked to author multiple DVD images at once from various divx/ xvid weird and wonderfully video formats, often remotely while I sit in my office at work. If I need to upload a huge file for work via ftp from home, I always do it from the file server as its never failed to complete.
I think its a case of whats the best tool for the job?
On most recreational things I still lean towards windows.
Work is often the same, but mainly as the packages I use are on windows, and are the best tools for the job (until Adobe starts developing for Linux)
File serving, ftp'ing, number crunching, web, voip, hosting and encoding-- time for Linux ;)
M
Quote from: dysonco on Jul 10, 2008, 16:57:27
....On the other hand my file server happily chugs away 24/7 running teamspeak, file shares, azureus for torrent downloads, is often asked to author multiple DVD images at once from various divx/ xvid weird and wonderfully video formats, often remotely while I sit in my office at work. If I need to upload a huge file for work via ftp from home, I always do it from the file server as its never failed to complete.
I think its a case of whats the best tool for the job?
On most recreational things I still lean towards windows.
Work is often the same, but mainly as the packages I use are on windows, and are the best tools for the job (until Adobe starts developing for Linux)
File serving, ftp'ing, number crunching, web, voip, hosting and encoding-- time for Linux ;)
Agreed M, horses for courses as they say.