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Technical News & Discussion => Broadband, Internet & General Computer News & Discussion => Topic started by: pctech on Sep 17, 2011, 20:30:23

Title: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 17, 2011, 20:30:23
Been having a few resynchs lately and I was wondering whether the phone cable could be picking up interference.

I've read that round twisted pair phone cable is better than the flat stuff but wondered if there's any truth to this?
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: .Griff. on Sep 17, 2011, 20:42:36
For such a short length it makes negligible difference.

In fact I have 45cm Pro+ RJ11 from Adslnation and I noticed absolutely no difference at all.

It's currently sitting on my desk so if you want to test it out let me know and I'll gladly post it to you.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 17, 2011, 20:46:43
Question answered, cheers Griff.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Lance on Sep 17, 2011, 23:04:52
The flat stuff is absolutely the worst cable to have. I've seen instances where even short runs <2m have introduced large amounts of noise to the line.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 18, 2011, 00:16:36
Quote from: pctech on Sep 17, 2011, 20:30:23
Been having a few resynchs lately and I was wondering whether the phone cable could be picking up interference.

I've read that round twisted pair phone cable is better than the flat stuff but wondered if there's any truth to this?


Twisted pair IS better than non-twisted.   You can get near flat twisted pair as well as round.   The near flat has each pair twisted together but the twisted-pairs are not twisted together.   

It may give you an improvement or may not, but it certainly will not make it worse.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 18, 2011, 14:17:52
I'll order some come pay day, its worth a punt I suppose.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: woppy101 on Sep 18, 2011, 15:30:43
Quote from: pctech on Sep 18, 2011, 14:17:52
I'll order some come pay day, its worth a punt I suppose.
Where do you get it from ads nation doesn't have any of the 3m stuff in stock
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 18, 2011, 18:43:48
I was looking at the 1m rather than 3m
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 18, 2011, 18:45:16
I don't think the 3m is the same stuff
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: woppy101 on Sep 18, 2011, 18:49:09
Quote from: pctech on Sep 18, 2011, 18:45:16
I don't think the 3m is the same stuff
Where do you get the 1m stuff from
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 18, 2011, 18:54:46
http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=120

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: woppy101 on Sep 18, 2011, 18:58:47
How long does it take for stock to come in
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 18, 2011, 20:20:03
Quote from: pctech on Sep 18, 2011, 18:54:46
http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=120



Just get some Cat5e and two RJ11s and make your own!     Use two twisted pairs on 2&5 and 3&4 and ignore the others.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 19, 2011, 09:23:13
Last time I tried tinkering with cat5 cutters and crimpers I nearly had my fingers off.  ;D

Joking aside such stuff isn't my specialty as I have fine motor control problems.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Niall on Sep 19, 2011, 15:01:35
I'd be interested in people's experience with this. I'm planning on getting a new phone for my bedroom. As I don't have call monitoring on my line, I'm going to get a phone that does it for me, that doesn't need a power pack. You can get them for £24 so I might as well get that twisted pair cable too.

Are they shielded or not? I couldn't see any info on that, at a glance.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: .Griff. on Sep 19, 2011, 15:03:33
Quote from: Niall on Sep 19, 2011, 15:01:35
I'd be interested in people's experience with this. I'm planning on getting a new phone for my bedroom. As I don't have call monitoring on my line, I'm going to get a phone that does it for me, that doesn't need a power pack. You can get them for £24 so I might as well get that twisted pair cable too.

Are they shielded or not? I couldn't see any info on that, at a glance.

They are shielded yes.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 19, 2011, 15:15:00
Quote from: Niall on Sep 19, 2011, 15:01:35
I'd be interested in people's experience with this. I'm planning on getting a new phone for my bedroom. As I don't have call monitoring on my line, I'm going to get a phone that does it for me, that doesn't need a power pack. You can get them for £24 so I might as well get that twisted pair cable too.

Are they shielded or not? I couldn't see any info on that, at a glance.


But the shielding will do very little especially as the shielding is not earthed.

From experience - Flat untwisted is the worst,  flat shielded improves a little, then a big jump to twisted pair and finally twisted pair screened (but only just).   On my old ADSL2+ connection the difference from twisted pair to screened twisted pair was 1 or 2 kbps and sometimes the sync would be less so allowing for changes in sync each time the results were too small to be significant
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: woppy101 on Sep 19, 2011, 19:07:01
Quote from: Polchraine on Sep 19, 2011, 15:15:00

But the shielding will do very little especially as the shielding is not earthed.

From experience - Flat untwisted is the worst,  flat shielded improves a little, then a big jump to twisted pair and finally twisted pair screened (but only just).   On my old ADSL2+ connection the difference from twisted pair to screened twisted pair was 1 or 2 kbps and sometimes the sync would be less so allowing for changes in sync each time the results were too small to be significant
What was the difference between flat and twisted
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 19, 2011, 19:53:30
Quote from: woppy101 on Sep 19, 2011, 19:07:01
What was the difference between flat and twisted
About 400k on a link running at 4800k ish. Some was at the top end and sorting some notches in the bit loading profile.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 23, 2011, 16:51:39
Just installed the new cable and rebooted the router.

No immediate difference in sync but I suspect that will come in time.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 23, 2011, 18:14:15
Did you get the cable the right way round?    Socket end to socket and router end to router?    It can make a difference especially as the pairs are twisted together and a reverse twist will have a negative effect.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 23, 2011, 18:19:45
Yer pulling my leg aren't you?

Connectors are same both ends and there's no indication at all.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 24, 2011, 00:02:19
Quote from: pctech on Sep 23, 2011, 18:19:45
Yer pulling my leg aren't you?

Connectors are same both ends and there's no indication at all.



Look at the text - the connection should flow along in the direction the writing on the outer sheath!

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: wecpcs on Sep 24, 2011, 12:10:55
Quote from: Polchraine on Sep 24, 2011, 00:02:19
Look at the text - the connection should flow along in the direction the writing on the outer sheath!

That is complete rubbish, as I used to make up network leads when I had my own computer shop. The only differences are a normal (straight connected) patch cable for normal use and a crosswired cable for connecting together directly two PC's without a hub or switch.

Colin
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: cavillas on Sep 24, 2011, 13:28:40
Most routers and Lan cards/connections nowadays automatically sense which way round they are connected.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 24, 2011, 19:08:06
I knew about Ethernet (Cat 5/5e cable) but thought I'd ask as this is telephone wire.

Anyway am just going to leave well alone and see what happens.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Lance on Sep 24, 2011, 20:18:57
Data will flow both ways through the cable regardless of the direction of the text.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 24, 2011, 23:08:02
Quote from: Lance on Sep 24, 2011, 20:18:57
Data will flow both ways through the cable regardless of the direction of the text.

But depending on the way the cable is drawn and thus the way the copper atoms lie will dictate the attentuation at high frequencies and rate of current flow.   One way will be fine, but the other with cause a slowdown.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: john on Sep 24, 2011, 23:40:57
There's some info here about wires and cables (http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/part6/page1.html) (page 3 mentions twisted pairs, don't know if it's of any interest  :dunno:
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 25, 2011, 00:13:20
Quote from: john on Sep 24, 2011, 23:40:57
There's some info here about wires and cables (http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/part6/page1.html) (page 3 mentions twisted pairs, don't know if it's of any interest  :dunno:

An dmore importantly, it is essential to read and understand:  http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/skineffect/page1.html
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 10:06:05
Errr thanks

*steam begins to emerge from pctech's ears as his brain tries to work out the equations in the last link

I've just rebooted remotely again as sync had gone down to 3390, went back to 3424, will see what happens over the next few days.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Ray on Sep 25, 2011, 10:16:10
 :stars:
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 10:23:51
Exactly Ray.

Can't do with my brain going pop today as am supervising 4 new recruits.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Simon on Sep 25, 2011, 10:27:07
Quote from: Polchraine on Sep 25, 2011, 00:13:20
An dmore importantly, it is essential to read and understand:  http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/skineffect/page1.html

Err... quite!  :stars:

Although, I have to admit, I have been told before that with HiFi, it does matter which 'direction' some of the cables run in.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Rik on Sep 25, 2011, 11:49:37
I actually did find that the direction of speaker wiring produced different results with high end equipment.
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 11:58:31
This is turning into something of a dark art.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Rik on Sep 25, 2011, 11:59:48
Anything to do with comms is, Mitch. ;)
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 12:05:00
Indeed, I might just end up calling on The Force.

;D
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Rik on Sep 25, 2011, 12:20:51
Thames Valley? ;)
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 25, 2011, 12:25:12
Quote from: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 12:05:00
Indeed, I might just end up calling on The Force.

;D
how you wind up surplus cables may also affect performance.  Wind up the right way and get great results
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Simon on Sep 25, 2011, 12:26:57
I'm beginning to think this is a wind up.  ;D
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Rik on Sep 25, 2011, 12:29:02
No, that's true too...
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 25, 2011, 12:40:18
there is plenty of wind up here at 37000 feet
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 12:45:26
Like I said earlier I did wonder whether my leg was being pulled, had you mentioned Dilithium crystals then I'd know you were taking the Michael.

I'm going to leave well alone now and see what happens.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Rik on Sep 25, 2011, 12:48:26
You can see the electrons, Mitch? ;)
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 12:49:49
 ;D

No but would be useful at times.

Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Rik on Sep 25, 2011, 12:52:24
 ;D
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 25, 2011, 12:56:38
Quote from: Rik on Sep 25, 2011, 12:48:26
You can see the electrons, Mitch? ;)
if he can see them, he needs to ensure that they are travelling in the right  direction and overall there are the same number travelling in the opposite direction
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 13:03:33
Quote from: Polchraine on Sep 25, 2011, 12:56:38
if he can see them, he needs to ensure that they are travelling in the right  direction and overall there are the same number travelling in the opposite direction

Anyone got Clark Kent's number handy  ;D
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: Polchraine on Sep 25, 2011, 13:08:51
Quote from: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 13:03:33
Anyone got Clark Kent's number handy  ;D
No, but I have Ken Clark's ... 01159 232xxx
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 13:17:33
 :laugh:
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: sobranie on Sep 28, 2011, 09:34:39
Quote from: pctech on Sep 25, 2011, 12:45:26
Like I said earlier I did wonder whether my leg was being pulled, had you mentioned Dilithium crystals then I'd know you were taking the Michael.

I'm going to leave well alone now and see what happens.



I used to know a Welsh battery salesman called Di Lithium.   >:D
Title: Re: Any merit to twisted pair phone cable?
Post by: pctech on Sep 28, 2011, 09:36:09
 :laugh: